vs. spectre

A player has armor spikes on his armor. He is fighting a Spectre, which is incorporeal and cannot be grappled.

Can he attempt a grapple maneuver in order to try and damage using armor spikes?

He also has a Wand of Cure Wounds. He activates it and then misses the touch attack. Does the charge stay in the wand, or is it expelled? Also, he is a high level character. Can he try to use the touch attack with the wand more than once?

Can he attempt a grapple maneuver in order to try and damage using armor spikes?

No. However, spiked armor is still a weapon. This means he could just try attacking it for the same damage.

He also has a Wand of Cure Wounds. He activates it and then misses the touch attack. Does the charge stay in the wand, or is it expelled?

It is expelled. A wand functions exactly as the spell, so a missed touch attack represents the charge being expended just as the spell slot would have been.

Also, he is a high level character. Can he try to use the touch attack with the wand more than once?

No. It is still a spell-trigger item, so he need his standard action to activate it each time. However, he can still make a single attack as part of activating the wand.

Not unless the spikes have the ghost touch quality.
Charge is wasted if he misses.
No one use a round.

EDIT: Ninja'd

A player has armor spikes on his armor. He is fighting a Spectre, which is incorporeal and cannot be grappled.

Can he attempt a grapple maneuver in order to try and damage using armor spikes?

No, but he can take a regular or off-hand melee attack with his armor spikes, assuming they're magical or otherwise able to damage the spectre.

He also has a Wand of Cure Wounds. He activates it and then misses the touch attack. Does the charge stay in the wand, or is it expelled?

Good question. The wand's charge is expended, but I think he would hold the spell on the wand until he touches something with the business end.

Also, he is a high level character. Can he try to use the touch attack with the wand more than once?

Activating a wand is a standard action. Even if he misses the touch attack and (as speculated) can hold the charge, he doesn't have actions available to make another attack in that round.

Aaand, so very ninjaed.

A player has armor spikes on his armor. He is fighting a Spectre, which is incorporeal and cannot be grappled.

Can he attempt a grapple maneuver in order to try and damage using armor spikes?

No. Damaging a creature with armor spikes requires that you have succeeded with a grapple check first. You must succeed on grappling the foe, and THEN one of your subsequent action choices is "attack with a light weapon" which is where you get to deal damage with armor spikes.

Since the spectre is immune to the grappled condition, you can never succeed on the grapple check that is required first to then attack with the armor spikes.

He also has a Wand of Cure Wounds. He activates it and then misses the touch attack. Does the charge stay in the wand, or is it expelled?

It is expelled. The charge is expended when the spell is cast (wands are spell completion items), whether the attack hits or not. Just as if you actually cast the cure light wounds spell -- if you missed with the touch attack, you still lose the charge, you do not get to hold it for another attempt.

Also, he is a high level character. Can he try to use the touch attack with the wand more than once?

No. Activating a magic item is a standard action, and there is no "full attack" option for wands. After activating the wand, his only choice is to take a move action (and of course any swift, free, or immediate actions available to him).

Good question. The wand's charge is expended, but I think he would hold the spell on the wand until he touches something with the business end.

Now that's an odd thing. I'm not sure if that would work or not. But you might be right.

I can't find it anywhere (of course) but I've always thought/we've always played it that if you TRY to discharge a touch spell and you MISS, you still discharge the spell.

The thing about holding the charge is if you cast the spell one round but do not attempt the touch attack required to discharge it at all. Then you hold the charge until you actually make the touch attack.

The rule's wording isn't very clear:

Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.

"If you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it" -- I've always interpreted that to mean, "If you don't do anything with the spell except cast it, but you don't make the touch attack."

For example, a sorcerer casts shocking grasp but does not touch anyone that round, at least not with the intent of releasing the spell. The next round she touches an opponent with the intent of electrocuting him with her spell, and shocking grasp discharges.

But then there's the line "You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged."

Does that mean you can keep ATTEMPTING touch attacks, but the spell is not discharged until you are successful?

Or does it mean that you can make touch attacks for other reasons (I don't know, maybe you're just poking the guy to annoy him, or casting other touch spells or whatever), but the spell doesn't discharge until you decide to let the charge go?

You'd think that if you can keep the charge if you miss on your touch attack, they'd just say it like that, rather than the vague phrasing that is in the rulebook.

Apparently, I am an elite ninja! I had no idea.

You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged.

DeathQuaker, I think I have been running touch spells wrong for years. Please allow me to change my answer to the second question.

Is the charge expended? Yes, but you may be able to keep making touch attacks with the spell until you hit or use a different spell.

I'm with you. This is way too vague, but that does make touch attacks far more useful. I am inclined to believe that this is the intended reading.

You can keep making touch attempts until the you touch something the spell can discharge into. This is important to note because in the case of a sorcerer casting shocking grasp, if he attempts an attack but misses, he will hold the charge. If the next round he has to help pull the rogue up a ledge, when he grabs the rogue, the spell will discharge into the rogue. At least, that is my understanding of how it works.

As for the wand, the charge would be expended until he touched something with it that could receive the spell. So against a specter, he could keep attacking the specter with it until he hits, or he could touch a friend or himself to heal them instead without reactivating the wand.

You can keep making touch attempts until the you touch something the spell can discharge into. This is important to note because in the case of a sorcerer casting shocking grasp, if he attempts an attack but misses, he will hold the charge. If the next round he has to help pull the rogue up a ledge, when he grabs the rogue, the spell will discharge into the rogue. At least, that is my understanding of how it works.

As for the wand, the charge would be expended until he touched something with it that could receive the spell. So against a specter, he could keep attacking the specter with it until he hits, or he could touch a friend or himself to heal them instead without reactivating the wand.

This is correct. A spell is only discharged if you touch something. That will be either an intentional touch attack on the turn you cast the spell, an intentional touch on any round after you have cast the spell, an accidental touch of an ally on any round after you cast the spell.

Failure to make a touch either on the round you cast the spell or any rounds after having cast the spell means you are still holding the charge.

This would apply to wands as well that cast touch spells. So a curing wand could hold the charge until you make a touch (intentional or accidental) with it.

Dominigo wrote:

You can keep making touch attempts until the you touch something the spell can discharge into. This is important to note because in the case of a sorcerer casting shocking grasp, if he attempts an attack but misses, he will hold the charge. If the next round he has to help pull the rogue up a ledge, when he grabs the rogue, the spell will discharge into the rogue. At least, that is my understanding of how it works.

As for the wand, the charge would be expended until he touched something with it that could receive the spell. So against a specter, he could keep attacking the specter with it until he hits, or he could touch a friend or himself to heal them instead without reactivating the wand.

This is correct. A spell is only discharged if you touch something. That will be either an intentional touch attack on the turn you cast the spell, an intentional touch on any round after you have cast the spell, an accidental touch of an ally on any round after you cast the spell.

The spell discharges if you touch anything with your charged appendage, whether or not it's a valid target. That may be what you and Dominigo meant.

This would apply to wands as well that cast touch spells. So a curing wand could hold the charge until you make a touch (intentional or accidental) with it.

I'd agree, though I don't know if it's explicit in the rules.