Entirely supporting Lars!
Thanks guys. I wish resting was an option, lol.
Jamarcus? Theora? You two with us still? I don't want to have to skip or dmnpc too many people. Theora it's your turn, I'll DMNPC you today if I must. Jamarcus, your posted action was invalid, the atomie had gone invisible and most likely moved.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Missed the fact that it's my turn. Will post in the morning. Currently midnight, had a rough day. Sorry!
-Posted with Wayfinder
Was at Disneyland for a few days.
I'll try to get a post up tomorrow but I'm running on 6 hours of sleep for the past 5 days or so.
So, hope you got some sleep Jamarcus!
Also, going to be out all evening long, I will try to post tonight when I come back.
Crazy day today, lots of running around. I will update this evening when I'm finally home for the night.
I'm running games at ConCentric most of this weekend, and Sunday night is my six year anniversary with my fiance. Don't expect a flurry of activity from me, and bot me as needed =)
Have fun!
My last post reminds me, I had an arrangement with GM Jamming that Grimkell would use the unchained barbarian rage powers instead of the original one. Can I still do it or do I switch back to the original version (that is actually what i did in my post).
Also, what up Theora, have you been able to find someplace to live? A new job?
Also, what up Theora, have you been able to find someplace to live? A new job?
No on both counts. I'll be keeping my current job until early December, and after that, I'll be seeking aid from an employment agency that specializes in people with disabilities and mental illness (as I'm on the autism spectrum and battling depression, they should be able to help). Still struggling along at home, but thankfully the situation has become a little less hostile. It's still rough, but I'm surviving. Thanks for asking, though. =)
These kind of things kinda remain in my mind. I am glad that things are a bit better at home.
Home and utterly exhausted. Posting tomorrow.
I just learned that I am leaving tomorrow for a wedding that takes place saturday and that I won't be back until sunday evening. I did know that I was going, but not so many days. Soooo... I do not know I much I will get to write, maybe a lot, maybe not at all.
Please, anyone, feel free to impersonate Grimkell for fun!
[JackSparrow]A wedding! I love weddings, drinks all around![/Jack Sparrow]
Take care, and enjoy the trip!
enjoy yourself, the last wedding I've been to was loud but still fun.
Theora, you may very well be my new favorite person for referencing Captain Jack Sparrow.
I apologize everyone but I am dropping out of the game. I am just not enjoying myself anymore.
Once more I am sorry for dropping this announcement so suddenly and I wish you all the best of luck.
Just came back... that's quite the bad news. It's sad to see you go... it would have been nice to know that the game was not going to your liking, maybe a mention of it would have spurred things along... maybe. See you around on the forums.
Sorry to see you go Lars, I wish there was something we could do to change your mind but I understand leaving a game because you're not enjoying it, I've done it before too.
Well, that's a shame Lars. I'm not sure if you'll still check this thread or not but I've sent you a private message as well. I'd really like to know if there is anything that can be changed to make things better for you enough to stay. Even if there isn't, please take a minute to let me know what's going on. It's one of the only ways that I can ever improve as a DM!
That was both sudden and unexpected... :/
OK, so here's the deal; I hate to put it on your shoulders but I really don't have time to go through the recruitment right now. I'm coming up on midterms and my kid is having a rough time requiring lots of appointments. If you guys want Lars replaced, please, by all means if you can go through the recruitment(s) and see if there is anyone you liked for a replacement. Discuss it among yourselves and let me know who I should reach out to. If you don't want to replace him, that's fine, too.
I think we can make it without him... what do you all think?
Was he the skill monkey? I mean, I'm sure we can do it without him, but there may be some times when scouting or tracking comes up that become trickier. Skald gets lots of skill points too right?
I'm sure we can all compensate if we plan from a metagame PoV and spread the skill love around to pick up any slack. Theora has great Dex and Wis which is going to be super helpful for that.
Well, skald get 4 skill points per level, so its not that good. However, event though Grimkell is low on wisdom, I plan on having him put lots of points in survival. In the long run, he should not be too bad at tracking.
I'll put a rank in Survival next level to help us out; I've got a decent wisdom score. I just hope Grimkell and Jamarcus can hold the frontline on their own now. I suppose if we feel we need a new party member further down the track, we can think about it then.
I agree, and Mirri actually is going to continue having ranks in survival due to her background so if you have a better use for those points Theora feel free to put them elsewhere.
:(
I think we'll be fine with 4?
More of a traditional party anyways, more room for everyone to shine.
And I definitely don't get many skillpoints, but if we need me to skill towards something, there's no complaints from me :)
Ok then, it looks like we'll move on without a replacement for now! Thanks for being so quick and decisive on that guys, I greatly appreciate it!
Everyone, I just wanted to know whether Grimkell's sexism bothered anyone. If so, I will gladly tone it down. If not, I think it fits well the character, but it will most likely change as time passes. So don't hesitate, i don't want to make anyone uncomfortable.
Doesn't bother me any as I play in/run several adult rated games on rpol.
Grimkell isn't nearly half as bad as a lot of the bogans I know. Right now, it doesn't bother me at all. Theora might react in-character with a bit of chiding and scolding, though! "Now now, dear, that's no way to speak to a lady!" :P
I'm actually more concerned about my character making people uncomfortable, if anything...
You're good. Thanks for asking though! I always appreciate the thought and consideration!
GM, brawlers get improved unarmed strike as a bonus feat. Jamarcus should be fine! (Sorry if this comes off as rude or anything; it isn't meant to.)
-Posted with Wayfinder
No not at all, I just go by what's on people's sheets and it wasn't on his!
Thank you! Don't know why I didn't check there. Totally brain fried I guess. So it's a ranged touch attack. Good flavor text having her pick up snow instead of just conjuring it, btw.
Sorry for my silence. The last few days have been really rough, and I've had to take a step back for my own mental stability. I'm back now, and I should be able to resume some semblance of a normal posting schedule.
However, I will be out of town from Friday night to Sunday night (my time). The fella and I are having weekend in Victor Harbour to recharge our batteries, and I may not be able to post. If it holds things up, bot me.
I am glad things are better now. I quickly looked over Victor Harbour (watched their advertisement video), sound like a nice place. Can you go swimming or is it too cold? Going to the zoo?
:O Southern Australia is so purdy.
Really hope things turn out for the better, Theora :)
To quote my friends skype tagline: "Everything's going to be ok in the end. If it's not ok, it's not the end"
I believe some things need to be addressed before we continue.
So I need damage rolls for every slap and need saving throws for allied spells.
Let's break this down a little bit.
Background
I created my character as a straight-talking, no bullshit gangster thrown into a medieval fantasy. This is part of his character. In Harlem, in his life as a gangster, slapping someone awake to interrogate them would be completely acceptable. On top of that, the concept of magic is still new and strange. For all Jamarcus knows, everything he's seen may just be sufficiently advanced technology.
Damage Rolls
Issue 1: You had already declared combat over. Grimkell asked if were were playing in rounds, and we are not. Yet I am still rolling for unarmed strike damage, out of combat.
Issue 2: I spoke 7 words, therefore I punctuated my speech with 7 attacks/slaps. As I am "rolling for damage", I assume this would be at full strength bonus. The sentence that Jamarcus spoke took enough time for one round. I am completely fine with rolling for damage on the bandit as long as you stay consistent with the DM ruling where I can attack 7 times at full BAB within a round.
Issue 3: You are essentially removing free will from the character. Jamarcus wishes to slap the man to bruise his face and wake him up. Instead, if I were to roll 7x(1d6+4), Jamarcus would instead have torn all the flesh from the mans face and pulverized his skull. I would be more than happy to roleplay this situation in-universe, but it doesn't change the fact that I no longer control what my character can do. I could even do nonlethal strikes, but they would be guaranteed to exceed the bandit's max hp and kill him afterwards.
Saving Throws
Jamarcus does not believe in magic. He is in a universe where magic, clearly, exists. This is because I am 'role playing' someone who is bullheaded and grounded in his own beliefs. This does not mean that the laws of magic, as per Pathfinder, are completely different when they apply to my character.
You are stating that I should be forced to make saving throws for friendly spells. This goes flat out against RAW and is an arbitrary nerf to my character, as you've essentially given me the barbarian superstition (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-- -rage-powers/superstition-ex) rage power, with no bonus to any saves.
Also, as per Core Rulebook, Page 217:
"Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality."
So yes, you may choose to make me save on allied spells through DM fiat, but I will have the ability to voluntarily give up the saving throws.
Of course, you could just arbitrarily take away that ability if you would like.
To conclude.
You, as the DM, can decide to impose whatever rules or restrictions that you want, the players will ultimately need to deal with them. What I ask for is consideration regarding the role-playing aspects of the game, as well as acknowledgement of RAW, and consistency with rulings.
If you have some time for further readings, I recommend this thread I started on the Pathfinder sub-reddit regarding our issue. It may shed some light on the situation.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/3pti1f/hitting_for_damage_ vs_hitting_for_flavor/
Just my 2 cents here but I have to say I enjoy the way your character is so far, exactly what I would expect of a person from earth getting put into Golarian m. As for most of the rest of your post I think I'm missing some things on it, though the hitting portion I can see the issue being the fact that people can read things differently than the writer intends.
As for Mirri, while she might "threaten" to cast a spell on you to prove the fact magic is real she won't actually do it as she considers the group as her allies if not her friends yet and doing such a thing except in the most extreme circumstances would be wrong if the effect wasn't a beneficial one.
I figured I might as well go ahead and get this done so I can go on about my day and not hold the group up.
I believe some things need to be addressed before we continue.
So I need damage rolls for every slap and need saving throws for allied spells.
Let's break this down a little bit.
I did not say that you needed saving throws for allied spells, I warned you that if you continue to use the fact that Jamarcus does not believe in magic as a way to attempt to circumvent the rules that I will start making him roll for ally spells as well. When you are told in ooc by the DM that because the NPC was unconscious because of magic, either magic or time would be needed to wake the NPC and then you were also told by a player in character that you needed to allow the magic to run its course (thus it wouldn’t be considered metagaming on Jamarcus’ part to choose to wait even though he would not think to do this on his own) but you still elected to hit the man repetitively and with strong enough strikes that his head whips back and forth AFTER stating that you don’t believe in magic, you are effectively saying that you are refusing to accept that things happen any differently on this world than they do your own and that even though you’ve been told and seen otherwise that things in this world should conform to your standards. Basically, what I’m saying to you as a DM is that if Jamarcus doesn’t believe in magic and is going to refute magic in his actions then it needs to be in all of his actions and not just when it benefits him, that’s crappy role playing otherwise.
As for the damage rolls for every slap, yes. Period. Yes. If you strike someone, in or out of active combat, especially someone who is unable to defend themselves, it’s repetitive, and it’s described as being hard enough to whip their head back and forth you bet you’re going to roll damage. I’ll touch on this more later where you talked about it further.
Background
I created my character as a straight-talking, no b$@#*%+@ gangster thrown into a medieval fantasy. This is part of his character. In Harlem, in his life as a gangster, slapping someone awake to interrogate them would be completely acceptable. On top of that, the concept of magic is still new and strange. For all Jamarcus knows, everything he's seen may just be sufficiently advanced technology.
“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” – Arthur C. Clarke
The discussion here isn’t about what is acceptable, the problem here isn’t one of morality. I don’t quite frankly give a damn what you do to the NPC but it is my job as DM to determine consequences for your actions and all actions have consequences – whether good or bad. My DMing style is to create a suspension of disbelief, and a part of that entails making realistic decisions where they are applicable. In real life, if you slap someone that hard, you’re causing them physical harm.Now, let’s look at some things that Jamarcus has already seen and accepted with aplomb: Blatantly and obviously being mysteriously transported from Harlem to Heldren, even if he doesn’t recall the details of how he got there. Sentient beings that are most definitely NOT human nor of any other animal that Jamarcus has ever known to exist on Earth save for the fairy tales he heard as a child, nor are many of them something he could simply ignore or rationalize as being strange looking humans. People speaking words or making strange gestures that then seem to consistently cause things to happen like nothing Jamarcus has ever heard or seen of on Earth save for fairy tales. Being the object of these same occurrences himself. At what point does Jamarcus stop “not believing in magic”?
Now, let’s look at some real life examples of times that Jamarcus would know that a person can’t simply be slapped awake – since we’re gonna pretend that he thinks it’s just advanced technology: When a person has undergone general anesthesia for surgery, when they are in a coma, or hell, he’s probably even dealt with a few people who were so drunk or so high that literally beating the crap out of them brought about little more than groans but never coherency.
So even if Jamarcus didn’t believe in magic, he has enough understanding that sometimes slapping someone awake won’t work. So why then when he is told by someone who presumably would understand this “advanced technology” better than he does that he will have to wait it out does he refute the statement and try to “viciously” slap the man awake anyway? This isn’t even touching on the fact that none of you actually KNOW this man to be anyone other than a stranger that you happened upon in the woods and attacked.
Damage Rolls
Issue 1: You had already declared combat over. Grimkell asked if were were playing in rounds, and we are not. Yet I am still rolling for unarmed strike damage, out of combat.
Would you prefer that with your action I resume rounds and combat? I can do that, if that’s easier for you to deal with but the simple fact is that when you hit someone you will be doing damage especially under the circumstance you defined in your post. These were not the light face taps that one usually associates with waking someone up, but “vicious slaps” that caused the man’s head to “whip” around. Coming from a character with an 18 strength, it could easily snap the man’s neck intended or not.
Issue 2: I spoke 7 words, therefore I punctuated my speech with 7 attacks/slaps. As I am "rolling for damage", I assume this would be at full strength bonus. The sentence that Jamarcus spoke took enough time for one round. I am completely fine with rolling for damage on the bandit as long as you stay consistent with the DM ruling where I can attack 7 times at full BAB within a round.
That would only be relevant IF WE WERE ACTING IN ROUNDS. We’re not, as you already pointed out. I terminated the need for round based actions because the only enemy is incapacitated and restrained. I did not declare that you had to make 7 attacks, even though the idea of punctuating one’s words with an action generally denotes that action after each word that is not always the case. I merely said I needed you to make damage rolls for the slaps. That was your cue to decide how many times you actually wanted to slap the man and to evaluate exactly how much force you really wanted to put into it – lethal versus nonlethal.
Issue 3: You are essentially removing free will from the character. Jamarcus wishes to slap the man to bruise his face and wake him up. Instead, if I were to roll 7x(1d6+4), Jamarcus would instead have torn all the flesh from the mans face and pulverized his skull. I would be more than happy to roleplay this situation in-universe, but it doesn't change the fact that I no longer control what my character can do. I could even do nonlethal strikes, but they would be guaranteed to exceed the bandit's max hp and kill him afterwards.
In what world does having consequences for your actions remove one’s free will? Free will is the ability to act as you wish, it is NOT the inability to have consequences for your actions. Removing your free will would be to tell you that you cannot hit the man, and to tell everyone else that your post never happened.
Saving Throws
Jamarcus does not believe in magic. He is in a universe where magic, clearly, exists. This is because I am 'role playing' someone who is bullheaded and grounded in his own beliefs. This does not mean that the laws of magic, as per Pathfinder, are completely different when they apply to my character.
Exactly. So don’t act like they do/should.
You are stating that I should be forced to make saving throws for friendly spells. This goes flat out against RAW and is an arbitrary nerf to my character, as you've essentially given me the barbarian superstition (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-- -rage-powers/superstition-ex) rage power, with no bonus to any saves.
No, I’m not stating that you should, not even that you must, but warning you that yes, I will make exceptions to rules in response to the way that a character behaves.
Also, as per Core Rulebook, Page 217:
"Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality."
So yes, you may choose to make me save on allied spells through DM fiat, but I will have the ability to voluntarily give up the saving throws.
Of course, you could just arbitrarily take away that ability if you would like.
Obviously if I’m willing to step outside of RAW in response to a character’s behavior, I’m willing to arbitrarily take away that ability. Justification: You can’t flip flop back and forth between believing in magic and not, if you don’t believe in magic, you can’t choose to forego a saving throw against something that you don’t even believe in… to do so would acknowledge that you do in fact believe in magic.
To conclude.
You, as the DM, can decide to impose whatever rules or restrictions that you want, the players will ultimately need to deal with them. What I ask for is consideration regarding the role-playing aspects of the game, as well as acknowledgement of RAW, and consistency with rulings.
If you have some time for further readings, I recommend this thread I started on the Pathfinder sub-reddit regarding our issue. It may shed some light on the situation.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/3pti1f/hitting_for_damage_ vs_hitting_for_flavor/
The next time you have a problem with my DMing style, I would greatly appreciate it if you brought it to me first or even discussed it in private with your co-players before taking it to a public forum which basically gives people the opportunity to trash talk me as a DM and does not provide them with all the information that they would need to evaluate my decisions. These people don’t know me, they don’t know your character, they don’t know everything that has happened in this game so how would I find it enlightening to read sh!t like, “Sound like a bad case of the ShittyGMnitus” or “Just slap your GM seven times and see if he dies?” because guess what, Jamarcus, people on the internet are a$$holes. I personally don’t need the mental/emotional beating of sorting through all of the negative comments to find the ones with real value. That being said, I did it anyway and will probably have a sh!tty day now just so you know. Now, I’m going to ask you to go back through and read all of that as well again. Not only were there some valuable points made in your favor, but there were also some valuable points made in mine.
Had you taken five minutes to discuss this with me in private or with a quick ooc post, I would have made it more clear what was expected. I would have also been willing to negotiate the damage done if you had decided that you didn’t want to actually slap him “viciously”, with some reiteration to your actions I’m willing to accept nonlethal at half damage and fewer than 7 slaps. If you decide, now knowing that you will be expected to be causing injuries to the man that you don’t actually want to slap him I’ll allow that. Had you asked if you can be gentler with your slapping and not cause damage, I would allow that. Instead you chose to insult me by going to another forum before talking to me about it and yeah, I’m offended. That being said, I actually really like your character concept and have enjoyed playing with you.TO EVERYONE: Just so that there is never any confusion, if you hit someone you will do damage. Wording matters in role playing. Player versus player is allowed. And again, as I have said before, I welcome feedback and insight.
If I may add something, I will skip the fact that these were two really long posts for a matter that might have been resolved with shorter ones (not criticizing here, just summarizing what was said).
It seems to me like a classic case of a misunderstanding where Jamarcus wanted to display some kind of cartoonish violence something like this wrote it in such a way that reading as been much more dangerous than it was meant to be was possible (not trying to take side here, just trying to maybe clarify the situation for everyone).
Lengthy posts are not an issue for me. Shorter doesn't equate to better, so no worries on my part on the length. I don't need it clarified, I understood perfectly well what he thought was going to happen, but thank you for attempting to make things easier for everyone.
A bit more background reading: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlatEarthAtheist
As for the damage rolls for every slap, yes. Period. Yes. If you strike someone, in or out of active combat, especially someone who is unable to defend themselves, it’s repetitive, and it’s described as being hard enough to whip their head back and forth you bet you’re going to roll damage.
Preserving this for future reference.
Obviously if I’m willing to step outside of RAW in response to a character’s behavior, I’m willing to arbitrarily take away that ability. Justification: You can’t flip flop back and forth between believing in magic and not, if you don’t believe in magic, you can’t choose to forego a saving throw against something that you don’t even believe in… to do so would acknowledge that you do in fact believe in magic.
I'll gladly RP out slapping the guy 7 times. However, you bending the rules of the Pathfinder universe to force my character to believe in magic when he doesn't want to is hilarious.
Once again, just because Jamarcus doesn't believe in magic, does not mean that allied or enemy magic apply any differently to him. Nor does this change how saving throws work.
And just to clarify, Jamarcus' disbelief of magic has never created any situation that was advantageous to him throughout the game. If you'd like to point out a situation where I'm using "I don't believe in magic" to benefit myself, I'll gladly explain why and how you're wrong.
As for the Reddit post.
I can post whatever to wherever, whenever I please. No derogatory language was used, and there was no defamation of character whatsoever. In addition, no links were provided and no names were named. It was meant to provide some unbiased, 3rd party feedback.
And there was plenty of 3rd party feedback, the overwhelming majority of which stated your actions are silly. But that's OK, you, by the very nature of being the DM, are infallible.
Let's just move on and see what other Pathfinder rules you'll flat out change to punish my character.
Alright, here's where we're at now: I'm not going to play games with you Jamarcus. If you can't back off now with the attitude then basically either this campaign is going to loose a DM or a player. As the DM, I could just kick you but I'll leave it to the group to decide which way they want to go with things. If they're not comfortable making the decision, then I will make it myself.
Please leave, I'd love to show this group what a good DM looks like.
OK, folks cast your votes.