I think thats mostly because of the way rules are read.
Instead of saying "The druid may cast a spell with a target of "You" on her animal companion(as a touch range spell) instead of on herself, even if the spell would normally not affect a creature of the companion's type(animal)."
they split it up into two separate sentences. Both of which make sense individually, while showing no inmediate necessity to be interwoven.
A fighter can wear heavy armor. A fighter can use tower shields.
Nobody would assume he can only use tower shields while wearing heavy armor and vice versa.
A druid may use personal spells on his Animal Companion.
A druid may use non-animal spells on his Animal Companion.
Then suddenly becomes "A druid can use only personal spells on his Animal Companion(even if they are non-animal ones)"
Reason one: exhibit: Dire Collar, which specifically uses Enlarge Person on an Animal. (even if it uses Animal Growth as basis for construction, it shows that the targetting can be bypassed).
Reason two: Target type restriction happens in "Target" field. Spells DB will show that (AFAIK) no spells with Target "you" have a type restriction(as in, if "you" were an animal with class levels, you could easily cast them on yourself. No share spells needed. The point being that the second sentence would be superfluous if it was an addendum to the first.
If only "you"-target spells would apply to share spells, then the second line about companion type is (mostly?) pointless.
Reason three: Inversion Experiment:
The druid may NOT cast a spell with a target of "You" on her animal companion(as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. A druid may NOT cast spells on her animal companion even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of her companion's type(animal).
Now, if we read them individually, it makes sense. If each sentence presents one rule, if we invert them, we are back to standard rules.
If we try to "combine" them again, fuse them, then the druid may only not cast spells with a target of you that have a type restriction on their animal companion.
Which is not fully inclusive, as it would not state what happens if one of the conditions was met.(And since if #2 holds, there are no spells fulfilling both criteria, it would produce an empty set of spells they can not use).
Reason four: Exhibit two, which allows exactly what I advocate, on a single cast, affecting both you and the companion. Note that the basic "share spells" is not even necessary, one could trade it away with an companion archetype.
Reason five: Pathfinder Society at least seems to handle it that way.
That said, I was certain I read a quote by a designer somewhere. I'll search more, tomorrow.
It's disorganisation..
They never set out specific wording for usage rules and abilities that would help the process of lessening ambiguity.
Consistant terminology usage is a keystone to any documentation process and the pathfinder rules set should have been treated like that.
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Reason one: exhibit: Dire Collar, which specifically uses Enlarge Person on an Animal.
I was actually going to suggest making a dire collar for Luna if that's an effect you want to do. Though for the argument about whether it works or not I don't think the Dire Collar counts as evidence since it specifically calls out that it ignores the normal restrictions.
The other arguments are pretty convincing to me though.
oh, and ancient lorekeeper archetype is for ELVEN oracles... Celyne is a half-elf...
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oh, and ancient lorekeeper archetype is for ELVEN oracles... Celyne is a half-elf...
Actually, it might be too late now, but Celyne counts as both an elf and a human for any effect based on race. This is one of the basic abilities of half-elves. So she qualifies for anything requiring her to be an elf AND anything requiring her to be human.
oh, and ancient lorekeeper archetype is for ELVEN oracles... Celyne is a half-elf...
What Numalar said. That one definitely DID have a ruling.
Half-somethings get to pick archetypes or Favored Class Boni from all 3 of their types.(Human, Half-Elf, Elf, in Celynes case)
didn't know that and probably too late now anyway.
There is always--
Retraining takes all your attention for 8 hours per day for a number of days based on what you're retraining. You can't perform any other strenuous activities while retraining, such as marching, adventuring, or crafting magic items. You can retrain only one thing at a time; you must complete or abandon a particular training goal before starting another one. Abandoning unfinished training means you lose all progress toward that training's goal and all costs associated with that training.
Unless stated otherwise, retraining costs gp equal to 10 × your level × the number of days required to retrain. This is normally paid in full at the start of the retraining period, but the GM might allow you to divide these payments over multiple days. At the GM's discretion, this training cost could be up to 50% higher or lower, depending on situational factors within the settlement—availability of trainers, local economy, cost of materials, and so on.
Some retraining options require you to work with a trainer. If no suitable trainer is available, the GM might allow you to retrain yourself by spending twice the normal time. Even if you train yourself, you must still pay the cost for training (though you don't double the cost as you do the time). Any option that requires a trainer also requires some kind of training facility for that activity.
When you use retraining to replace some aspect of your character, you must meet all prerequisites, requirements, and considerations for whatever you're trying to acquire.
For example, a 6th-level rogue can't use retraining to learn the Weapon Specialization feat because only fighters can choose that feat. When retraining multiple character options (class features, feats, classes, etc.) in one continuous period, all of the new selections are made at the end of that period in an order decided by the player. If this period is interrupted for any reason all choices must be made immediately. In this way players can retrain class features and their prerequisites at the same time.
Archetype
You can use the retraining rules to acquire an archetype for your class or abandon an archetype you have.
To gain an archetype that replaces standard class abilities you already have, you must spend 5 days for every alternate class feature you would add, subtract, or replace by taking that archetype. At the end of the training period, you lose the standard class features and replace them with the archetype's alternate class features (if any).
To abandon an archetype, you must spend 5 days for every alternate class feature you already have from that archetype. At the end of the retraining, you lose the archetype's class features and gain the standard class features for the class.
Swapping one archetype for another requires two retraining sessions: one to abandon the archetype, and then one to gain the new one.
Note that you don't have to use the retraining rules to take an archetype if your class level is low enough that the archetype doesn't modify any of your current class abilities. For example, if you're a 1st-level fighter who wants the archer archetype, that archetype doesn't replace any class abilities until fighter level 2, so you don't need to use the retraining rules at all—once you reach 2nd level, you can just decide to take the archer archetype.
Example: Logan's 4th-level fighter has the archer archetype. Because he is 4th level, he has two alternative class features from his archetype (hawkeye at 2nd level and trick shot at 3rd level), so he must spend 10 days and 400 gp retraining to abandon this archetype. If he were 5th level, he would also have the expert archer alternative class feature, which would increase his retraining to 15 days and 750 gp.
So for currently for Celyne this would cost 10 x 3rd level x 10 days (for 2 class features--alternate skills and your 2nd level bonus spell) = 300 gp
Now you just have to find an elf-blooded, magic instructor steeped in arcane lore.
*Wink*
I am leaving on a retreat on Thursday the 3rd and won't be back til Sunday afternoon. I will try to keep up on my phone, but it's very hard to post using it, so please bot me as necessary to keep the game flowing. Thanks
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"This is going to take crackerjack timing, Wang."
"Total concentration, Jack. You ready?"
"I was born ready."
If the plan is that in the opening round we all will shoot a volley of arrows prepared with holy weapon balm, then we need to make sure we have enough time to prepare all the arrows we want before going in.
So, we could stand in a circle and do it like this:
Round 1
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Zokon dips an arrow (ST) and puts the arrow in his quiver (MOVE)
Celyne takes the pot of balm (MOVE) and dips a crossbow bolt (ST)
Numalar takes the pot of balm (MOVE) and dips a crossbow bolt (ST)
Posh takes the pot of balm (MOVE) and dips a crossbow bolt (ST)
Scarlet takes the pot of balm (MOVE) and dips an arrow (ST)
Alia takes the pot of balm (MOVE) and dips an arrow (ST)
Round 2
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Zokon takes the arrow from Alia (MOVE) and gets ready
Celyne Loads her crossbow (MOVE)
Numalar Loads his crossbow (MOVE)
Posh Loads his crossbow (MOVE)
Scarlet gets ready
Alia takes out a second arrow (MOVE) and dips it (ST) then drops the pot onto a conveniently placed sack on the floor (FREE)
This gives everyone a single holy balm projectile and leaves an extra one for Zokon (for later).
Round 3 everyone gets in position
Round 4 we kick the door down
Alternately we cast some buffs round 4 and round 5 we kick the door down. We have to shoot these arrows by round 10.
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The big question is do we do this before kicking the door down the first time or the second?
done
Numalar@ Thats the reason I posted my intended buffs. Because they ADD to this time, before we can get in. The bad thing is that everything starts to expire the longer we take. If we only kick the door down in round 5 or 6, and get scattered, stuff like the weapon balm may be out already...so since it lasts shortest, I would actually get the other buffs done FIRST, see how much spare time everybody has, and start dipping then.
As said, I have 2 rounds worth of personal buffing to do, with 30/20 round durations. After that, I can gladly do the weapon balm, but may be better off simply dipping my own arrow...while Zokon would be having plenty of time since he has no Ranger Spells to self-buff (yet? ;) ).
*Stab*
Studied target... everyone is my favoured enemy... and excellent more kobold knowing goodness...
Posh is having some serious computational problems so it might be a day or two before we hear back from him. For now he'll be guarding the base camp.
If everyone else can get into position, and list out any buffs they are contemplating, we'll proceed later tonight.
Who has my old longsword, either myself or someone should be holding it to use against the jellies if needed
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Numalar@ Thats the reason I posted my intended buffs. Because they ADD to this time, before we can get in. The bad thing is that everything starts to expire the longer we take.
Yeah, I get that. But if you are planning on including enlarge person then why not use a wand charge for that? It may only last 1 minute instead of 3 that way, but if you are in the maze and it wears off, we can just burn another charge.
If we do it that way I can cast enlarge on you while you are casting shield, and you could prepare a second shield if it wears off.
...the weapon balm may be out already...so since it lasts shortest, I would actually get the other buffs done FIRST, see how much spare time everybody has, and start dipping then.
Okay, I see your point... but we will also need at least a round to get in position after dipping. We don't want to try to file all in through one door as it would be too easy to get blocked. So some of us should come from the north and some from the south.
If we are going with the "volley of arrows" strategy I suspect we will all be able to get a shot off before he teleports us. He probably couldn't do that to us if he doesn't have line of effect so in the hallway we would be safe.
After that, I can gladly do the weapon balm, but may be better off simply dipping my own arrow...
The reason I had you dip one arrow and give it to Zokon before dipping one for yourself is that you were last in the order and therefore didn't have to hand the pot of balm to anyone. Doing so becomes a move action that we can't afford unless we burn another round, since anyone who takes the pot from another player has to spend a move action to do it, and if you have to pull another arrow out of a quiver, that's your other move action for the round. But that doesn't have to be you - Scarlet works just as well. Anyone with a bow doesn't have to spend an action loading it, so it could be either of you two.
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Other Preparations:
Once we have secured the maze area, we should probably:
* Spike all the doors open
* Brace the portcullises open (I think they all slammed shut last time we got teleported)
For the portcullises we could cut wooden planks that will hold them open.
FYI I will leave Sir Didymus with Naleksa this time.
I'm pretty sure I gave it to someone, I just can't remember who as it's not in my equipment list anymore.
Piercing weapons haven't seemed to work to well against them so far.
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GM: I have put 12 markers on the map indicating placement of torches for those who need light. Basically anyone anywhere in the maze should be able to see torchlight from where they are, even if they don't have direct LOS to a torch.
If we don't have enough torches in the party we can get some from Naleksa.
Kicking down the door:
I have two different ideas here.
Idea #1:
My first idea is that the weakest characters (such as me) would be directly behind either door, then there would be a 5' gap, then two more people.
Then, when we yell "GO!", I use a move action to open the door, shoot from the open doorway with a standard action, then step 5' back. Then persons 2 and 3 can move up, and one of those two can stand in the doorway if need be, since I have gotten out of the way.
Idea #2:
If Alia is already enlarged when we kick in the door then getting down the hallway will be hard for her, so she might need to be closer to the door to have enough movement to do anything. If she uses a move action to open the door and then a move to get in the room, she won't get a shot off with a bow, but maybe she won't need to if the rest of us are.
But if I can get into the doorway with a 5' step there is a bit of a trick I can do for a little extra damage.
I still think we would be better off if I give each person an arrow, they in turn coat said arrow with the anti-undead stuff, then they give them back to me and I shoot him with arrows.
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I still think we would be better off if I give each person an arrow, they in turn coat said arrow with the anti-undead stuff, then they give them back to me and I shoot him with arrows.
The thing is we may only get one shot off before we get teleported, and then you would have only a few rounds to get back into the room to shoot all the rest of the arrows before the holy weapon balm dissipates. The balm is only good for 10 rounds.
If we do 7 arrows then there is still enough stuff in the pot for 3 more arrows which we can dip after.
Or, since it so distinctly differs between weapon and ammunition, Zokon could simply take 10 arrows/bolts, dip them into the pot as a standard action and we happily say it's applied to all of them. Then everybody who needs one takes one.
@Numalar: There's 2 entrances, as you said. Even if I sit behind one, you can be right in front of the other.
@Dipping: I know, what I referred to was that I would end up dipping two arrows over 2 rounds, to hand one to Zokon, and spend 2 more rounds buffing, while Zokon would sit idly during those 2 rounds.
Instead of, say, Zokon dipping 3 arrows, me dipping my own arrow and spending two rounds buffing, for 3 rounds total where everybody has something to do.
That said, I would, as mentioned earlier, use a sling stone rather than an arrow. Reason being, as said, that I can wield it one-handed, with the estoc carried in the other hand, then let it drop and grip my blade two-handed after the attack. I wouldn't want to drop my bow in there and let people stamp over it.
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Zokon could simply take 10 arrows/bolts, dip them into the pot as a standard action
@ GGGM: Would that be allowed? I had been assuming that each projectile would have to be dipped separately. I had also assumed that the pot would be too small for us to just put it on the floor in the middle of the group. Is that allowed?
@Numalar: There's 2 entrances, as you said. Even if I sit behind one, you can be right in front of the other.
Okay, though then I can't cast enlarge on you.
@Dipping: I know, what I referred to was that I would end up dipping two arrows over 2 rounds, to hand one to Zokon, and spend 2 more rounds buffing, while Zokon would sit idly during those 2 rounds.
Instead of, say, Zokon dipping 3 arrows, me dipping my own arrow and spending two rounds buffing, for 3 rounds total where everybody has something to do.
Okay, I get it now. A valid point.
If we go that way, in Round 2 Zokon will have to spend a move action to take the pot from you and then a move action to take out an arrow. Then the Round 3 he dips it and puts it in the quiver. Then Round 4 he could take out 1 more arrow as a move action, dip it as a standard action, etc.
The action economy works a bit better if someone is helping.
That said, I would, as mentioned earlier, use a sling stone rather than an arrow.
Ah, I see!
Does Scarlet have a sling? That might be a good move for her, too.
I only have a longbow.
Defintely stick the portculli open.
If enlarge person is going to be used, Scarlet should use her spell-like ability to grow big. This assumes we're not going to shoot holy arrows through the doorway, right?
A sling is so simple it's technically free.
I dare say, if Naleksa is stocking Weapon Balms in her inventory, then she'll have something that can be used as a sling.
@How does dipping work: aye, GM call. It's a good question anyway. A Giant could dip 10 "sling" stones larger than your head into it, to provide them with the benefit. While some tiny pixies would struggle to get more than a single dagger coated with the stuff. *whistles innocently* - so yeah, Fiat decision needed anyway ;)
Zokon could simply take 10 arrows/bolts, dip them into the pot as a standard action@ GGGM: Would that be allowed? I had been assuming that each projectile would have to be dipped separately. I had also assumed that the pot would be too small for us to just put it on the floor in the middle of the group. Is that allowed?
Numalar is correct.
One dose of poison smeared on a weapon or some other object affects just a single target. A poisoned weapon or object retains its poison until the weapon scores a hit or the object is touched (unless the poison is wiped off before a target comes in contact with it).
Applying poison to a weapon or single piece of ammunition is a standard action. Whenever you apply or ready a poison for use, there is a 5% chance that you expose yourself to the poison and must save against the poison as normal. This does not consume the dose of poison. Whenever you attack with a poisoned weapon, if the attack roll results in a natural 1, you expose yourself to the poison. This poison is consumed when the weapon strikes a creature or is touched by the wielder. If you have the poison use class feature (such as from the assassin prestige class or the alchemist base class), you do not risk accidentally poisoning yourself when applying poison.
Alas, poison/balms do not come in convenient, easy-to-dunk, mop-bucket-sized vials. However in this case being a monk might be an advantage should you miss-apply. ;)
Grab dunk put away in quiver... 6 or so with 4 stones for slings
Hu? It's a poison now? Is there danger of becoming holy ourselves if we mis-apply? ^_^
Just kidding.
Honestly, the fact it runs out on a (one-minute) timer got me thinking that way, it seemed more like a spell(which usually targets all ammunition simultaneously), rather than poison or a weapon blanche(which last).
But yeah, in that case, we'll do the more complicated dance :)
That said, we may want, at a later time, to get a couple unseen servants to do that for us. That way, Zokon can keep firing and gets handed new ammunition. Could even set up an assembly line, where they get poisoned, blanched and holy-weapon-balmed as needed.
Since the stuff is dirt-cheap for ranged since it lasts 10 attacks, totally worth it.
A line of Unseen Servants on an invisible assembly line, loading ammo for us...
this is how the Rebellion starts, mind you.
Or the New Republic you mean, this is Kingmaker after all..
Yeah, I'm not going to say the rules make a ton of sense though I understand the meta reasons for writing them this way (If you dip an arrow in fresh vial can you stopper it up and use it on 49 other arrows over the next few months but can't apply it to your dagger because there isn't enough? If you steal some from a Huge giant who had the stuff for his great sword how come you only get enough for your kama? Etc....)
Anyhow, this will all be academic when you get haste.
Lemme know when you are ready.
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Zokon dips an arrow (ST) and puts the arrow in his quiver (MOVE)
Celyne takes the pot of balm (MOVE) and dips a crossbow bolt (ST)
Numalar takes the pot of balm (MOVE) and dips a crossbow bolt (ST)
Posh takes the pot of balm (MOVE) and dips a crossbow bolt (ST)
Alia takes the pot of balm (MOVE) and dips an sling stone (ST)
Scarlet takes the pot of balm (MOVE) and dips an arrow (ST)
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Zokon takes the arrow from Scarlet (MOVE) and puts it in quiver (MOVE)
Celyne Loads her crossbow (MOVE) and moves towards south door (MOVE)
Numalar Loads his crossbow (MOVE) and heads towards north door (MOVE)
Posh Loads his crossbow (MOVE) and heads towards north door (MOVE)
Alia loads her sling (MOVE) and moves towards south door (MOVE)
Scarlet takes out a second arrow (MOVE) and dips it (ST)
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Zokon takes the pot of balm from Scarlet (MOVE) and moves towards the north door (drawing another arrow as he goes) (MOVE)
Celyne gets in position (MOVE) and
Numalar gets in position (MOVE) and waits
Posh gets in position, (MOVE) and casts vanish (ST)
Alia arrives at south door (MOVE) and casts shield (ST)
Scarlet gets in position (moving 40'), drawing her bow on the way there (MOVE) and waits
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Zokon dips the arrow he is holding (MOVE), drops the pot of balm onto a conveniently placed sack (FREE) and gets in position (drawing his bow as he moves) (MOVE)
Celyne casts weapons against evil (FULL) and touches 3 weapons
Numalar waits
Posh begins a bardic song (ST)
Alia casts enlarge person (FULL)
Scarlet casts enlarge person ? (FULL)
Fun Twist: Skeletal Dude is not waiting in that room for us and moved someplace else overnight ^_^
Why so many move actions..
before we start I give the people who are going to help me arrows. 2 arrows 1 in each hand
We put the pot on the floor between us
Double dip .. using two hands.. then put them in quiver while I pick up bow still holding the arrows i'm going to fire
The ruling was that the holy weapon balm is treated like poison.
That means you only get to do one piece of ammunition with each action, and it has to be a standard action to apply it, so only 1 per round per person, total, no double-dip, unfortunately.
(which is why I suggested a couple unseen servants for you, for the future. They could assembly-line dip your arrows and hand them back to you.(or place them in a secondary "magazine" quiver.)
On the plus side, I don't think we can accidently holy weapon balm ourselves on a natural 1 :)
That would totally be the balm though.
I am semi-busy today so you've got precisely 19 hours 51 minutes from when this posts to when stuff happens. Be sure you are where you want to be on the map.
Posh is available for buffing but since he's incommunicado by enlarge I don't want to kill him (thereby avoiding a TPK ;)). Though it might be funny to have him run in and weaken the boss and then have the rest of you finish the thing off. ;)
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We put the pot on the floor between us...
Yeah, I already asked if we could do that and the answer was no. Would have speeded things up a lot. I'm guessing that the vial is more or less potion-sized, which is pretty small.
Next time we are in Restov we should buy a vat of it. :)
Posh is available for buffing ...
FYI the one spell I suggested he cast was vanish which not only will protect him from any AoOs when he enters the room but will also allow him to shoot at the target flat-footed even if the target has moved that round. Other than that, bardic performance and the occasional grease will probably be enough from Posh.
Well, we could buy a potion-sized vial for a Gargantuan creature.
If we're asking for a Vat, we'll simply get a pixie Vat no bigger than our Vial.
Handling of these things is really not well-done if you go by pure mechanics. Massive houserule-territory, there, if you want it to make sense.
A continuous unslotted Unseen Servant would be what, 4k gold? 3k if you slap it on something slotted as added feature. So making it ourselves, thats 2k gold per item. Plus hand it a lockpick and tell it to fumble around in locks and you have a great trap bait, simple re-summoning whenever it get hit with area damage...
Before long, we can have a couple of those. And in situations like now, they could pipeline projectile through an enhancement line.(plus, if we use poison, no worries if they poison themselves when applying it.)
*smiles*
@posh: Aye, Bardic Performance would be welcome.
Too sick and depressed and terrified to game right now... expect I'll be gone a day or two while I process recent events.. I WILL be back.
Did something happen? Take your time. I hope you'll feel better soon!