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RPG Superstar 2015

A friendly heads up regarding Aasimar and Tiefling


Pathfinder Society GM Discussion

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Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Washington—Eastern Washington , Star Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015 aka WalterGM

6 people marked this as a favorite.

Just wanted to point something out that might get overlooked, with the newness of these two races to a lot of players and GMs. I image this mistake will be common, so I'd like to remind other GMs of it now to try and curb the chance of letting it happen.

Quote from Ultimate Equip: Titanic Armor, pg 122: "... Once per day on cammand, the wearer can increase her size as if using enlarge person (even if the wearer is not a humanoid)..."

Titanic armor and items (and spellcasters with) righteous might are the only ways to enlarge Tiefling and Aasimar PCs. Remember that these two new races are outsiders and, as such, cannot be the target of enlarge person or any spell with a target of "humanoid."

Thanks, and happy playing!

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Michigan—Alma

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Or are and Aasimar with the Scion of Humanity racial trait. (It makes them count as Humanoid (Human) in addition to Outsider (Native) for effects)

****

Good call.

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

This was actually very useful note. Thanks Walter.

The Exchange ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Also immune to reduce person, charm person, hold person, dominate person (some of which put a crimp in the "Dawn of the Scarlet Sun" villain's tactics) and daze.

The Exchange ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

And while I've seen some aasimar use enlarge person on themselves, I've found it much more common to see aasimar druids and summoners use the spell on their animal companions and eidolons, through the Share Spells class feature.

That doesn't work.

Dark Archive **** Star Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber

What about with the racial trait Eric pointed out above, Chris? (I don't have the sources handy).

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Michigan—Alma

ARG wrote:

Scion of Humanity : Some aasimars’ heavenly ancestry

is extremely distant. An aasimar with this racial
trait counts as an outsider (native) and a humanoid
(human) for any effect related to race, including feat
prerequisites and spells that affect humanoids. She can
pass for human without using the Disguise skill. This
racial trait replaces the Celestial language and alters the
native subtype.
Chris Mortika wrote:

And while I've seen some aasimar use enlarge person on themselves, I've found it much more common to see aasimar druids and summoners use the spell on their animal companions and eidolons, through the Share Spells class feature.

That doesn't work.

There's nothing saying it won't work.

CRB wrote:

Share Spells (Ex): The druid may cast a spell with a target

of “You” on her animal companion (as a spell with a range
of touch) instead of on herself. A druid may cast spells on
her animal companion even if the spells normally do not
affect creatures of the companion’s type (animal). Spells
cast in this way must come from a class that grants an
animal companion. This ability does not allow the animal
to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function
like spells.

No where does it say that the spell in question has to be able to affect the Druid in order for it to be cast on their companion. The Share Spells ability specifically allows them to cast spells that wouldn't normally affect their companions. Now, I'll grant you that Enlarge Person isn't a Druid spell so a druid couldn't do it to his AC, but it is on the Summoner's list, and he could do it to his Eidolon.

The Exchange ***

Walter Sheppard wrote:


Titanic armor and items (and spellcasters with) righteous might are the only ways to enlarge Tiefling and Aasimar PCs. Remember that these two new races are outsiders and, as such, cannot be the target of enlarge person or any spell with a target of "humanoid."

Thanks, and happy playing!

Or use any other transmutation effect (like monstrous physique).

Or wild shape.
Or have levels in Living Monolith.

Basically, just be aware that enlarge person doesn't work on aasimar or tieflings.

**

Chris Mortika wrote:
Also immune to reduce person, charm person, hold person, dominate person (some of which put a crimp in the "Dawn of the Scarlet Sun" villain's tactics) and daze.

I was under the impression that native outsiders were still affected by these sorts of things. Is that not the case?

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Washington—Eastern Washington , Star Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015 aka WalterGM

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Belafon wrote:
Walter Sheppard wrote:


Titanic armor and items (and spellcasters with) righteous might are the only ways to enlarge Tiefling and Aasimar PCs. Remember that these two new races are outsiders and, as such, cannot be the target of enlarge person or any spell with a target of "humanoid."

Thanks, and happy playing!

Or use any other transmutation effect (like monstrous physique).

Or wild shape.
Or have levels in Living Monolith.

Basically, just be aware that enlarge person doesn't work on aasimar or tieflings.

By enlarge, I meant enlarge. Not transform.

EDIT: I meant magical enlarge. Fat aasimars are still RAW legal.

Thanks for the tip about the Living Monolith though!

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Washington—Eastern Washington , Star Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015 aka WalterGM

Gwaihir Scout wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
Also immune to reduce person, charm person, hold person, dominate person (some of which put a crimp in the "Dawn of the Scarlet Sun" villain's tactics) and daze.
I was under the impression that native outsiders were still affected by these sorts of things. Is that not the case?

Outsiders are not humanoids. Native outsiders have only the following changes:

- Can be resurrected, raised, etc as a living creature.
- They need to eat and sleep
- Native to the Material Plane


Gwaihir Scout wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
Also immune to reduce person, charm person, hold person, dominate person (some of which put a crimp in the "Dawn of the Scarlet Sun" villain's tactics) and daze.
I was under the impression that native outsiders were still affected by these sorts of things. Is that not the case?

They are not affected by them. It is not an outsider benefit that requires a racial HD to have.

They do not automatically get proficiency with martial weapons however, even though other outsiders do.

*****

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

aasimar cleric with growth sub domain no worky?

Dark Archive **** Dedicated Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Great reminder Walter! ^_^

Dark Archive ****

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kyle Baird wrote:
aasimar cleric with growth sub domain no worky?

Sticky, but I think it works.

Quote:
Enlarge (Su): As a swift action you can enlarge yourself for 1 round, as if you were the target of the enlarge person spell. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

"As if you were the target", to me, implies "as if you were the correct target". He wouldn't be able to use the spell on himself, but the enlarge ability doesn't require him to be a humanoid.

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

And it's (su) not (sp)... hmm.

Dark Archive ****

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Like many things, up to individual interpretation. Best to not push your luck for the sticklers.

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

meh, not personally a fan of non-core races. I've been toying with a fetchling shadowdancer or an ifrit oracle of flame, but still haven't put pen to paper. I do need a new first level character though :-/

**** Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco , Star Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014 aka Pirate Rob

I really like the Ifrit wishcrafter, they looked like they could be a lot of fun, assuming your table was willing to yell things at you all the time.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

Kyle Baird wrote:
I've been toying with a fetchling shadowdancer or an ifrit oracle of flame

Me too! (with tiefling instead of fetchling)

The Exchange ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Eric,

A tiefling summoner with Share Spells can cast spells on an eidolon instead of himself. A tiefling is not a legal target for enlarge person, so he cannot cast Enlarge Person on himself, even if humand and half-orcs can cast it on themselves.

(There's errata on the phrase "has a target of 'You.'" It means "can be cast on yourself." If not for that errata, then Enlarge Self could never be cast on an animal companion or eidolon, because it doesn't have a target of 'You'.)

So, a tiefling summoner has an eidolon and -- for whatever reason -- the spell enlarge person. He can't cast it on himself. So it's not a spell that he can share with the eidolon through Share Spells.


Enlarge Person is still a spell of some value to a native outsider summoner -- he can't cast the spell on himself or on his eidolon, but he can certainly cast it on humanoid allies. Of course, in PFS play it would be just his luck to be in a party of all aasimars and tieflings....

The Exchange ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

That.
Would be.
Hilarious.

*

concerro wrote:


They do not automatically get proficiency with martial weapons however, even though other outsiders do.

Where does it say this?

I imagined it would open up options for these guys who don't have to dip in a full BAB class for some builds (i.e. Eldritch Knight).

I can also think of another scenario where two of the three BBEGs are shut down by non-humanoid targets.

Also, I can imagine Outsider (Native) Bane arrows becoming all the rage with NPCs.
Just saying.
(And sorta hopin'...)

Dark Archive **** Dedicated Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kyle Baird wrote:
I've been toying with a fetchling shadowdancer or an ifrit oracle of flame, but still haven't put pen to paper.

Well THERE'S your problem! Trying using a pencil instead of a pen! :-P

Dark Archive *

Castilliano wrote:
concerro wrote:


They do not automatically get proficiency with martial weapons however, even though other outsiders do.

Where does it say this?

Aha! I knew I'd seen it somewhere.

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz474a?Aasimar-Badly-Designed

James Jacobs wrote:


Weapon and armor proficiencies are basically "rewards" you get for taking a class level OR getting a racial hit die. Some races (like elf or tengu) do grant specific weapon proficiencies regardless of Hit Dice, and in those cases, they have a specific racial trait that lists that.

But beyond that, a creature that does not possess racial Hit Dice gains its weapon and armor proficiencies pretty much ONLY by taking class levels and feats. Thus, a tiefling or aasimar does not gain the standard Outsider trait of "proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry," and the human doesn't gain the standard Humanoid trait of "proficient with all simple weapons."

It's not really spelled out as clearly as it probably should be, I agree, but it's also kind of common sense as well.

Dark Archive *

Kyle Baird wrote:
meh, not personally a fan of non-core races. I've been toying with a fetchling shadowdancer or an ifrit oracle of flame, but still haven't put pen to paper. I do need a new first level character though :-/

There are 6 of us who got the Fetchling boon at PaizoCon UK.

We're trying to decide as a group what to make and as best as we can play all Fetchling tables :D

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Eindridi wrote:

There are 6 of us who got the Fetchling boon at PaizoCon UK.

We're trying to decide as a group what to make and as best as we can play all Fetchling tables :D

Shh! You'll ruin the surprise!

Dark Archive **** Venture-Captain, Virginia—Richmond

There was a group of LG players around here, and I supported them, that when they released the now infamous Kobold Card and a neighboring region (in tune with their plot) basically banned them wanted to play all Kobold tables. I dunno, all Fetchling might be fun but I want an all Tengu table.

Speaking in the voice.

At GenCon.

On video.

Challenge on guys :).

Dark Archive ****

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Eindridi wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
meh, not personally a fan of non-core races. I've been toying with a fetchling shadowdancer or an ifrit oracle of flame, but still haven't put pen to paper. I do need a new first level character though :-/

There are 6 of us who got the Fetchling boon at PaizoCon UK.

We're trying to decide as a group what to make and as best as we can play all Fetchling tables :D

Do it, and then play through Midnight Mirror.

*****

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Michael Meunier wrote:

There was a group of LG players around here, and I supported them, that when they released the now infamous Kobold Card and a neighboring region (in tune with their plot) basically banned them wanted to play all Kobold tables. I dunno, all Fetchling might be fun but I want an all Tengu table.

Speaking in the voice.

At GenCon.

On video.

Challenge on guys :).

There is a group of local players that are all planning on making Tengu bards, then playing them together. They're going to call the group Counting Crows.

**** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 , Star Voter 2013

Kyle Baird wrote:
meh, not personally a fan of non-core races. I've been toying with a fetchling shadowdancer or an ifrit oracle of flame, but still haven't put pen to paper. I do need a new first level character though :-/

Nah, really frak with people.

An ifrit who specializes in cold spells.

A fetchling Oracle of fire. :-)

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Michigan—Alma

Chris Mortika wrote:

Eric,

A tiefling summoner with Share Spells can cast spells on an eidolon instead of himself. A tiefling is not a legal target for enlarge person, so he cannot cast Enlarge Person on himself, even if humand and half-orcs can cast it on themselves.

(There's errata on the phrase "has a target of 'You.'" It means "can be cast on yourself." If not for that errata, then Enlarge Self could never be cast on an animal companion or eidolon, because it doesn't have a target of 'You'.)

So, a tiefling summoner has an eidolon and -- for whatever reason -- the spell enlarge person. He can't cast it on himself. So it's not a spell that he can share with the eidolon through Share Spells.

1) What I posted was from the most recent PDF.

2) This is from the PRD.

PRD wrote:
Share Spells (Ex): The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list. This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.

3) The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself.

If a spell with the target of "You" can't be cast on the tiefling, then it can't be cast on the AC.

4) A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider).

This includes spells that don't have a target of "You". They're two separate ideas. If they were meant to be used together, it'd read something like. "A summoner may cast spells, that could be cast on himself, on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider).

I'm curious, are there even any spells with a target of "You" that only affect humanoids? If so, you might, might have a leg to stand on. (Just checked the spell DB, and I found none.)

The first part lets you cast spells like shield and see invisibility which are normally personal spells. The second lets you bypass the type restrictions on spells like enlarge person.

5) Feel free to provide a link to a developer saying I'm wrong, and I'll gladly withdraw any arguments, though if so, they need to change their wording to reflect it.

Dark Archive **** Venture-Captain, Virginia—Richmond

Myron Pauls wrote:
Michael Meunier wrote:

There was a group of LG players around here, and I supported them, that when they released the now infamous Kobold Card and a neighboring region (in tune with their plot) basically banned them wanted to play all Kobold tables. I dunno, all Fetchling might be fun but I want an all Tengu table.

Speaking in the voice.

At GenCon.

On video.

Challenge on guys :).

There is a group of local players that are all planning on making Tengu bards, then playing them together. They're going to call the group Counting Crows.

I approve

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Michigan—Alma

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Myron Pauls wrote:
Michael Meunier wrote:

There was a group of LG players around here, and I supported them, that when they released the now infamous Kobold Card and a neighboring region (in tune with their plot) basically banned them wanted to play all Kobold tables. I dunno, all Fetchling might be fun but I want an all Tengu table.

Speaking in the voice.

At GenCon.

On video.

Challenge on guys :).

There is a group of local players that are all planning on making Tengu bards, then playing them together. They're going to call the group Counting Crows.

They should all take one rank in Profession (Accountant) so they can be the Accounting Crows


Mergy wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
aasimar cleric with growth sub domain no worky?

Sticky, but I think it works.

Quote:
Enlarge (Su): As a swift action you can enlarge yourself for 1 round, as if you were the target of the enlarge person spell. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
"As if you were the target", to me, implies "as if you were the correct target". He wouldn't be able to use the spell on himself, but the enlarge ability doesn't require him to be a humanoid.

That is just telling you to reference the enlarge person spell. It is not a free pass. As an example if a dominate ability says that it works like dominate person, and it is SU then the aasimar is still immune to it.


Eric Clingenpeel wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:

Eric,

A tiefling summoner with Share Spells can cast spells on an eidolon instead of himself. A tiefling is not a legal target for enlarge person, so he cannot cast Enlarge Person on himself, even if humand and half-orcs can cast it on themselves.

(There's errata on the phrase "has a target of 'You.'" It means "can be cast on yourself." If not for that errata, then Enlarge Self could never be cast on an animal companion or eidolon, because it doesn't have a target of 'You'.)

So, a tiefling summoner has an eidolon and -- for whatever reason -- the spell enlarge person. He can't cast it on himself. So it's not a spell that he can share with the eidolon through Share Spells.

1) What I posted was from the most recent PDF.

2) This is from the PRD.

PRD wrote:
Share Spells (Ex): The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list. This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.

3) The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself.

If a spell with the target of "You" can't be cast on the tiefling, then it can't be cast on the AC.

4) A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider).

This includes spells that don't have a target of "You". They're two separate ideas. If they were meant to be used together, it'd read something like. "A summoner may cast spells, that could be cast on himself, on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider).

I'm curious, are there even any spells with a target of "You" that...

You are correct. Those are two seperate statement. The first one is bypassing the limit on "you" spells.

The second half is bypassing the creature type limitation for certain spells, but only if cast by the summoner, wizard, or druid in reference to their "pets".

The Exchange ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

So, Eric, you're saying that, at your table, Share Spells allows the caster to target the eidolon / animal companion with every single spell?

So if a druid could cast rejuvenate eidolon or mending, she could cast it on her animal companion? A summoner could cast black tentacles on his eidolon rather than an area?

I understand Share Spells to, well, share spells. If the caster can cast the spell on herslef, she can cast it on the animal companion or eidolon.

The Exchange ****

Chris Mortika wrote:

...snipping good stuff...

could cast black tentacles on his eidolon rather than an area?

...snipping other good stuff....

the image this brings to mind! wow!

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Michigan—Alma

Chris Mortika wrote:

So, Eric, you're saying that, at your table, Share Spells allows the caster to target the eidolon / animal companion with every single spell?

So if a druid could cast rejuvenate eidolon or mending, she could cast it on her animal companion? A summoner could cast black tentacles on his eidolon rather than an area?

I understand Share Spells to, well, share spells. If the caster can cast the spell on herslef, she can cast it on the animal companion or eidolon.

If somehow a druid got rejuvenate eidolon added to her druid spell list, yeah, that's exactly what Share Spells allows.

The spell would still have to have a target. There's nothing stopping you from targeting your eidolon in the area of black tentacles. If it has a Target entry, then yes you can target your "special friend" (whether animal companion, familiar, or eidolon.)

The Exchange ***** RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

The target for black tentacles is normally a 20-ft. radius spread, not the creatures that need to make saving throws. The target is where the tentacles come out from. I don't think it's the intent to allow a summoner to change any spell to target his eidolon. Shrink item on an animal companion lends itself to all manner of mischief. So does burning disarm cast on a grappling eidolon.

That doesn't sound like sharing spells to me.

Grand Lodge ****

Michael Meunier wrote:
I want an all Tengu table.

Our groups is working on a party of tengu bards with the apt name, "Counting Crows". Can't WAIT to GM those guys. Really. Can't WAIT.

*****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pirate Rob wrote:
I really like the Ifrit wishcrafter, they looked like they could be a lot of fun, assuming your table was willing to yell things at you all the time.

I really really want to play one of those, specializing in witty banter with the enemies that eventually wins up with a bestow curse spell after they made a poor choice of words.

Wishcrafter: "I am only here to help you get what you want, my friend."

Enemy Guard: "Then get out of this warehouse and stay out! I never want to see any of you again!"

Wishcrafter: "Your wish is my command, effendi!" *casts Blindness/Deafness*

I just need an ifrit boon. Just my luck that the boons I got were the ones that were becoming free anyways.

Shadow Lodge **** Venture-Lieutenant, California—Fresno (Card Game) aka ThreeEyedSloth

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Wishcaster is what I decided on with my Ifrit boon. Especially after Benjamin Bruck (who wrote that archetype) made a very compelling case for how awesome they can be. :)

Dark Archive *

Michael Meunier wrote:

There was a group of LG players around here, and I supported them, that when they released the now infamous Kobold Card and a neighboring region (in tune with their plot) basically banned them wanted to play all Kobold tables. I dunno, all Fetchling might be fun but I want an all Tengu table.

Speaking in the voice.

At GenCon.

On video.

Challenge on guys :).

We had 3 of 5 as Tengu all with the voice.

Sadly a confirmed crit with a scythe on a level 1 Tengu Monk took us down to 2.

Or 4 if you counted the all the pieces.

Dark Archive ****

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Eindridi wrote:
Michael Meunier wrote:

There was a group of LG players around here, and I supported them, that when they released the now infamous Kobold Card and a neighboring region (in tune with their plot) basically banned them wanted to play all Kobold tables. I dunno, all Fetchling might be fun but I want an all Tengu table.

Speaking in the voice.

At GenCon.

On video.

Challenge on guys :).

We had 3 of 5 as Tengu all with the voice.

Sadly a confirmed crit with a scythe on a level 1 Tengu Monk took us down to 2.

Or 4 if you counted the all the pieces.

Classy.

The Exchange *

Chris Mortika wrote:

The target for black tentacles is normally a 20-ft. radius spread, not the creatures that need to make saving throws. The target is where the tentacles come out from. I don't think it's the intent to allow a summoner to change any spell to target his eidolon. Shrink item on an animal companion lends itself to all manner of mischief. So does burning disarm cast on a grappling eidolon.

That doesn't sound like sharing spells to me.

It's specifically creatures of the eidolons type. It still has to be something that can be cast on a creature.

*****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

FWIW, ifrit can use Efreeti Magic to enlarge person once a day.

Shadow Lodge **

Chris Mortika wrote:

The target for black tentacles is normally a 20-ft. radius spread, not the creatures that need to make saving throws. The target is where the tentacles come out from. I don't think it's the intent to allow a summoner to change any spell to target his eidolon. Shrink item on an animal companion lends itself to all manner of mischief. So does burning disarm cast on a grappling eidolon.

That doesn't sound like sharing spells to me.

"even if it doesn't normally affect creatures of the eidolon's type" seems to imply that the spell has to affect a creature.

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