Hmm. Question! Is vocal mimicry the realm of the bluff skill? Or something that requires feats/magic.
For example; if someone would like to try and mimic a voice they just heard for the purpose of trying to lure a certain snowman/lich closer :p
The old "I say we let him go." trick, aye?
If you are just trying to impersonate a voice, it probably falls more under Disguise. If you are trying to lie with said voice, then it falls under Bluff. Like regular a regular disguise check, familiarity with said voice factors into the results.
Hmh. Hmm. Wonder how curious a lich is?
Your own voice sounds strange coming from something else but you. But before sound recording tech proliferated there probably weren't that many that knew :p People with illusion or divination magic access are probably among the few that actually know ...
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Anyhow! Pardon on my slowness. I'm taking some coding courses and I'm getting my ducks in a row. Reallocating free time and so on. There's still enough of it to get posts up - so it shouldn't be an issue - but I'm distracted.
Also hmm. Looking at the map it feels like I've already moved my token this turn...
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So! What was I doing. Yeah! Trying to mimic the dead lich voice to lure the "alive" one out so we can beat it up. Hopefully.
I believe they are all Simulacrums of a much more powerful lich. Of CL18 or so.
Aye aye. They're probably familiar with their "own" voice.
But for future shenanigans, there may be a lot of people that aren't.
Well, usually you only need one for rubber duck debugging. But as a novice I figured I might accidentally a duck or two, so better have a whole legion at the ready :p
The famed council of ducks, praised be.
I sometimes substituted co-workers for the ducks, but they had a habit of interrupting or talking.
Rubber ducks are clearly superior in that regard.
I have half a mind to just let him go and attempt to destroy the mirror.
Pursuing him to his home turf seems risky.
Plus, seeing how he is a lich, even if we best him that just means he'll come back in a couple days and will give it another try.
Until we have means to find his Phylactery, I think there is little gain to be had from forcing a confrontation.
Of course, he will just recharge and continue to harass us if we don't undo him for now, but weighing one against the other I'm not really keen on jumping into that mirror and finding ourselves in some lesser demiplane without breathable air or something.
I don't think he's a lich.
I think he's another CL9 Simulacrum of a CL18 lich.
Durgan knows none of this, however.
I mean the REAL slim shady....er...Szam Tass will stand up, will stand up.
And my point stands, Simulacrum or otherwise - pursuing will not stop him from coming after us next week. Even if we destroy it, we don't know how many there are and he could form a new one or come personally.
But pursuit means we transfer to an area he could have prepared as a trap/fallback.
So I'm not keen on jumping into that mirror.
But wanted to discuss before deciding on an attempt to shatter/sunder it.
We should toss something at the mirror first to see if it's actually still a portal or not :p But yes, we probably don't want that thing open do we?
Mostly I don't want someone to commit us all to a pursuit through this thing(if it is still a portal) without first talking and expressing my strong desire to not go through based on a incomplete-information based risk/reward analysis.
@GM: NPC's do NOT get a say in this. If someone jumps through trying to take the decision for us, thats on them. We'll light a candle for them and use them as a classroom example on why you don't Leeroy pointlessly.
I think going through is a terrible idea.
Serena is angry. She wants a piece of Szam Tass so badly that she can taste the vengeance. That said, her player does not relish the idea of going through. We're clearly not ready for this yet.
Serena is angry. She wants a piece of Szam Tass so badly that she can taste the vengeance.
Oh, if we get a chance, we are so striking him down.
We can do a redemption arc after, but he'll be totally dead-dead.
Maybe we keep the phylactery around a few days and give everybody a chance to strike him down a bit before destroying it.
So the next bit delves heavily into the sim-part of kingdom building (where to build, what to build first, managing the economy and resources, levying taxes, and that sort of thing). If you are not in into that, let me and your fellow players know so that I can plan out how to proceed. The alternative is a sort of 'default kingdom' where the party just does some light-touch RP and adventuring around kingdom events (festivals, disasters, etc...) and just let the kingdom grow without all the spreadsheet/map work.
I should have adventure loot, and kingdom resource allocations up in the next couple of days, but get to that other stuff in Gameplay first.
I am not sure how comfortable we even are starting to build stuff.
Everybody and their mother in the whole country seems to outclass us, still.
Szam Tass is somewhere here, a Rogue mage is out there, a Drow fortress beneath us, trying to invest in anything seems like inviting trouble, and without an entourage of higher-level NPC's we'll probably see it all crumbling to dust.
Aside from the fact that I do not fully understand quite what happened...some blue dragon showed up while breaking the mirror, messed all of us up but didn't finish us?
Thats ANOTHER thing...why is it here and what prevents us from using our capital as a seaside vacation roost?
1.: Any remains of the Shepherd that could be found anywhere? For all we know he could have been a 14th Level Druid, just shifted into a bird and left when all the trouble started.
Noah never showed up in the first place did he?
Imeckus also left somewhere and has not returned? His sister, unknown, her dog, soon to be orphaned.
2.: Personally I liked Allisa, if only because she seems relatable, the adventurer eventually settling down, having seen the world, trying something new, maybe having a kid or two.
Rationally, it would seem that Ser Richard would be our best bet on support if he was not in on this. But chances are as leader of Swordlords, friend of Mayors and the throne, etc...he has other people sponsoring his resurrection.
So using it on him may not be the best way to spend this even if it seems an obvious choice at first.
3.: I think I would like an example to better understand the cost/benefit, as well as expectations. I mean, if we can levy taxes, AND get an initial boost of income, there has to be some drawback beyond "those hexes not available to develop". Especially if we get to pick the lands and send Dool to build a nice tower in the swamplands bordering on Mivon.(So just in case there is trouble with Mivon, he can't just stay out of it, or at least acts as a barrier if they go around him). Like, I understand the concept, but I am not feeling that I can make an informed decision on this. Also regarding any special needs - could we just clump them up around Renault, use the resources they provided to dig a moat and build a wall around that section of the kingdom, then call it a day, never worrying about them again?
4.: I think we did have a talk about this a while ago?
I never saw eye to eye with Abadar, but Durgan does - but right now we're more in Erastils territory here, and Abadar does respect that as necessary grassroots from which civilization grows.
I think there was some talk about the implications of backing Sarenrae, too, but I think we reached no consensus back then. I think something that was not mentioned then was the part about them granting benefits, which seems to be above any beyond an intial payment. Maybe knowing what they over could allow us to reach a decision based on practicality, rather than ideology?
5.: Well, Renault WAS here first, for all I care they can do their thing. But then they also won't benefit from what we do. That is, he can join and be mayor and pay taxes and get infrastructure and stuff, or he can say they want to stay isolated because they left to avoid paying taxes in the first place, but then the world will change around them, and their young will leave. I'm an Elf, I can play the long con and simply build up everything around their patch of dirt to the level they will come beg to be included in less than half a century.
I am not sure how comfortable we even are starting to build stuff.
Everybody and their mother in the whole country seems to outclass us, still.
Szam Tass is somewhere here, a Rogue mage is out there, a Drow fortress beneath us, trying to invest in anything seems like inviting trouble, and without an entourage of higher-level NPC's we'll probably see it all crumbling to dust.
Completely agree with Alia on this. If we can have one of the higher-level clerics cast Commune, we might get some answers indicating that it is possible for us to begin building a kingdom because some of our adversaries are limited in their ability to act directly against us. But otherwise, faced with opposition that includes powerful spellcasters with a personal enmity towards us, it is idiotic to try to build a kingdom. All we would be doing would be putting settlers at risk.
In the normal Kingmaker AP, I am pretty sure that the PCs early in Book 2 have not earned the personal hatred of such powerful and resourceful foes. They would be beneath the radar of most of the movers and shakers. We are not. That is a huge, huge change from the AP and one that makes it very hard to consider building anything.Aside from the fact that I do not fully understand quite what happened...some blue dragon showed up while breaking the mirror, messed all of us up but didn't finish us?
Thats ANOTHER thing...why is it here and what prevents us from using our capital as a seaside vacation roost?
I think the dragon was on the other side of the mirror. Not our side. So it didn't affect us at all, but breaking the mirror is what scattered us (I think).
Rationally, it would seem that Ser Richard would be our best bet on support if he was not in on this. But chances are as leader of Swordlords, friend of Mayors and the throne, etc...he has other people sponsoring his resurrection.
So using it on him may not be the best way to spend this even if it seems an obvious choice at first.
Ser Richard was turned into an undead creature and so we would need Resurrection rather than Raise Dead. A higher-level caster plus more diamonds. Still, perhaps we can at least chip in, if that might get him more supportive of us. If someone else raises him, and it is revealed that we could have but chose not to, then he might not be as inclined to help us should we need it. I liked Alisa too and went to a great deal of effort to try to save her from the Efreeti, to no avail. Durgan might be inclined to raise Balthur Mistbreather for the sake of establishing trade connections with Glimmerhold.
4.: I think we did have a talk about this a while ago?
I never saw eye to eye with Abadar, but Durgan does - but right now we're more in Erastils territory here, and Abadar does respect that as necessary grassroots from which civilization grows.
I think there was some talk about the implications of backing Sarenrae, too, but I think we reached no consensus back then. I think something that was not mentioned then was the part about them granting benefits, which seems to be above any beyond an intial payment. Maybe knowing what they over could allow us to reach a decision based on practicality, rather than ideology?
As I said here: Durgan wants a prominent place for Abadar and will work to ensure that Abadar's cathedral is ultimately the best and has the most worshippers. But this is friendly competition with Erastil, Pharasma, Iomedae, and even Gorum - he knows that many in the land will tend Chaotic. He knows there are geopolitical concerns regarding Sarenrae, specifically the Cult of the Dawnflower sect, though he trusts Serena to keep such problems at bay. If we were to pick one as pre-eminent that wasn't Abadar, I'd go with Iomedae, as I liked Ser Earnest Daye (and the Church of Iomedae connects us to those who might be able to help us against our exceedingly powerful foes). Remember that Durgan is a veteran of the Mendevian Crusades and so has a high opinion of Iomedans (though he also respects the Gorumites and Sarenrites who fought alongside him, the Church of Iomedae was a major player at an institutional level).
5.: Well, Renault WAS here first, for all I care they can do their thing. But then they also won't benefit from what we do. That is, he can join and be mayor and pay taxes and get infrastructure and stuff, or he can say they want to stay isolated because they left to avoid paying taxes in the first place, but then the world will change around them, and their young will leave. I'm an Elf, I can play the long con and simply build up everything around their patch of dirt to the level they will come beg to be included in less than half a century.
The Stag Lord was here before us too. We are conquerors, more or less. As I said here: the party made a lot of promises to Renault that they wouldn't take away his freedom (since the first charter did not involve rulership).
But you cannot have a government if some of your citizens can just refuse to recognize your authority, particularly if they have that exemption by virtue of being wealthy and well-connected.
If his land is within our territory, then either he is a vassal lord with his own fiefdom, or he is simply another citizen. But we do need to assert authority in some way rather than just caving.
We could grant Renault a carve-out on a border region, based on Zokon's prior promise. This would then not set a precedent for everyone else who wants to ignore our rule (since nobody else received that promise). We could make clear that we offer no military protection to Renault, no help against monsters, and higher rates for use of bridges or canals that we build as well as higher rates for clerical healing (that is, our citizens receive the benefit of lower rates).
@Renault: That was basically my idea, just without forcibly relocating them.
I only give him credit because they basically left their home and went here to start a new community without the kind of government we are about to establish.(and because we promised as much).
So my idea was to let him have that field as an autonomy region, but not spend any of our resources on him, but on bypassing him. There will be a fancy new road for trade to Brevoy? Yeah, but not through his territory, nobody else is going to come to their backwater place.
There will be job opportunities and new homes with schools and healers in a new settlement, just a day to the west.
Basically let him stew in his autonomy while he sees that everything around is being lifted up, and their own young leave to join us. I believe he'll cave in, and there will be no hostility or anything.
He'd get exactly what he'd bargained for. Just not what he wants.(as in, our impact WOULD be felt). Their farms are next to the forests Alia wanted to steward, I'll gladly take him in my domain and deal with him.
A new road would likely go from the Trading Post straight down, along the Forest Edge to the Bridge, then to the Capital?
Building up the Trading Post, and a second small settlement near the Bridge would make sense(so there's about 30 miles between them for a day of travel by horse, with a inn/waystation halfway at 15 miles for foot travellers/carts) would likely cut him off pretty much, while luring the youth to find a future and jobs over there :)
For the record: being well-connected and wealthy does not play into this for Alia, but forcing your authority on people tends to lead to resistance, to people working for outside forces, trying cause trouble behind the screens and hindering you out of principle without going to open rebellion - I'd rather have people be citizens willingly - it may not always be an option but I think we have some wiggle room to work with Samuel. He's not really hostile to us, just pissed that "Big Government" is coming back to haunt him.
Any remains of the Shepherd that could be found anywhere? For all we know he could have been a 14th Level Druid, just shifted into a bird and left when all the trouble started.
Noah never showed up in the first place did he?
Imeckus also left somewhere and has not returned? His sister, unknown, her dog, soon to be orphaned.
Not yet. The same. Their horrible fates to be revealed soon in Gameplay.
I think I would like an example to better understand the cost/benefit, as well as expectations. I mean, if we can levy taxes, AND get an initial boost of income, there has to be some drawback beyond "those hexes not available to develop".
Basically that's it. Generally, it is best to own the land yourselves and reap the resources found there. But the influx of start-up money is substantial. However since it is actually 'land speculation' judging the cost to benefit is a bit of a long term guess. You know that there are some plots of land with certain resources based upon your explorations and interactions (The Sootscales' mine, the forest spaces, etc...).
In the normal Kingmaker AP, I am pretty sure that the PCs early in Book 2 have not earned the personal hatred of such powerful and resourceful foes. They would be beneath the radar of most of the movers and shakers.
Technically no, not even in regular Kingmaker. There are forces moving behind the scenes against you day one that you don't truly face until book 5 and 6. They are certainly more subtle about it working through agents, but they are there.
Szam Tass for his part is just annoyed you nixed his agent in the dungeon under the Temple of the Elk. His simulacrae are a bit more invested, but even they seemed more put off by you ruining their chess game rather than actually angry. Tass never even showed up in person, and the the laissez faire way the whole thing was executed should tell most folks that he doesn't hold any one person personally responsible--because they would no doubt be dead. Still though he's still a danger.I think the dragon was on the other side of the mirror.
The room itself was an extra-dimensional space. The dragon (again, for show, 'don't interfere with me again. I have a dragon.) broke it from the 'outside.'
He's not really hostile to us, just pissed that "Big Government" is coming back to haunt him.
That basically sums up his position. "Look, the only difference between us is that you guys have a permission slip [read: charter] from New Stetven."
Oh and too many threads open. Derp. The above should be in the gameplay thread, for all the good it'd do!
Re kingdom building - I'd love to play with spreadsheets. On the weekends at least :p
Re "domains" - as little as I recall of the actual kingdom building I don't think this is a great idea *at start*. Cities/stuff are quite expensive and one probably wants a few basic thingmabobs in one place before we try multiple.
Re raise dead - It seems like what we've got, so anyone needing resurrection can get carted off to the capital/their fancier friends.
There's also a best-before date so any corpses of unknown provenance is probably disqualified.
Re other things - a lot of other stuff to go through. I'll have this thursday off and I'll try to get to it then :) Tomorrow is scheduled horribly so I plan on being grumpy then :p
Re "domains" - as little as I recall of the actual kingdom building I don't think this is a great idea *at start*. Cities/stuff are quite expensive and one probably wants a few basic thingmabobs in one place before we try multiple.
But I believe pbp will be a bit different - as I understood it is supposed to go through many iterations, where you do updates and calculations often, allocate resources to build up more and do relatively many updates during the downtime periods.
I think having things start with a bit more omph, and having more impactful cycles, but fewer of them, could be well-suited to pbp. So we could have sufficient support(from Brevoy, Kyonin, locals, our potential sponsors, the churches, new settlers...) to start several projects simultaneously(build up capital, start a road, check the river, build a mining settlement, a forest village, extend farming...), but then have fewer iterations of kingdom building before the next story segment or adventuring part happens.
Know what I mean?
I do WANT to get into the Kingdom Building, but deciding on wether to build this or that first, and on which location, and then consider if there is higher need for that road or this farm, and basically coordinate and/or deliberate over every tiny detail could really slow things down - and "more slow" is not something we need in this game :D
So I'd prefer if everybody could meddle a bit by themselves, and we just align on how we share resources. (e.g. pooling all BP and splitting them fairly - so not everybody has to focus on first raising BP somehow and we end up e.g. without farming and paying extra for all armies we may eventually need.)
But I'm totally open on how we want to do things, I just think running many cycles and having multiple people discuss priorities on each cycle will be very...very...very slow.
There would still be enough we would have to deal with as a council, e.g. with trade agreements with external partners and all that, politics stuff, refugees, etc...I just think the deeper we go into minor aspects/details, the less useful is time spend deliberating on them.
I don't know much about the BBEG of actual Kingmaker, but I have played a fair number of Paizo APs to at least mid-levels and there has never been a situation like "Hey 5th-levels, here's a CL18+ caster BBEG who hates you personally and can wipe you out at will but he just doesn't feel like it right now."
If it happens in fiction, the BBEG is carrying the Villain Ball to not wipe out the heroes before they become a threat. Stories usually have some credible in-game explanation why the BBEG cannot do that. The Emperor wants to turn Luke Skywalker. Sauron can't act directly (and the hobbits are protected by powerful allies at various points).
In APs, the reason PCs are NOT wiped out in Book 2 by the Book 6 foe might be that the BBEG is unaware of them at that point (Tyrant's Grasp), unable to act directly against them (RotR, War for the Crown), not a spellcaster (S&S, Ironfang, Giantslayer), want to use the PCs (Strange Aeons), or else the PCs have powerful allies helping them (Wrath of the Righteous). I am not sure what the in-game explanation is here - why we as PCs should not assume that this lich will not just repeat the attempt when we are separated from our present NPC allies.
That sequence took over a year and a half IRL, with many grueling battles and immense cost. It was a HUGE part of this campaign! It had a tremendous effect on our potential kingdom. To be told OOC by the GM that this was just the BBEG messing around and not playing serious only highlights our irrelevance.
As well, we had no inkling that any such plot was in motion, and I'm not sure what we could have done to gain such awareness. To be once again hammered by plotting enemies that we were unaware of makes it nearly impossible to consider establishing a kingdom. What should we be doing differently?
So... running to Eldiocesan is the only thing I can think of. A common criticism of Forgotten Realms is that there are so many high-level NPCs running around that the PCs are condemned to perpetual irrelevance (which is a feeling I have had in this campaign at times). One way around that is to have the super-NPCs counter each other to some degree, leaving the PCs free to do their own thing. And that's what I think we need.
Thinking this mastermind was a CL9 lich with good planning, who we managed to defeat after an epic war, was pretty satisfying. Then realizing it was just one of many Simulacra of a CL18 lich is just so, so disheartening. To fight so long and so hard and then have our victory rendered basically meaningless by that reveal... it's not great, and it has been bumming me out ever since.
Pardon, couldn't quite get all my thoughts out. So something abridged while the micro makes food :p
I feel that Durgans concerns are valid in and out of character. Though I also feel they are a little bit doom and gloomy.
I don't think GM wants to kick over any sand castles we build out of spite. Spooky scary lich seems to have made an early bump (similar to order of the stick:p? Iirc) but isn't vengeful. It's like shooting down an UFO early in terra Invicta - painful consequences but they are brief and in the end worth it because you got shinies :p
On the other hand we've got another name for our quite long "don't like list" and the feeling that list is growing a lot faster then we can manage to trim. Which is a concern ic for our characters health and a bit ooc because there's a lot of foes to keep track of. Plus the forgotten realms point (I adore that setting though ... But sadly not everyone agree I'm always right :p).
Not sure if my hastily composed thoughts were best spent on that topic but it seemed the most urgent.
Sorry about the doom and gloom - I am still reeling from the Szam Tass revelation. It was an absolute gut-punch.
No, I as a player do not think that the GM would have his uber-lich destroy our realm out of spite.
But Durgan has to think that based on IC knowledge. I cannot see any other path for him than to try to first eliminate our scheming enemies - both Salzarus and Szam Tass - before even attempting to establish a settlement, since settlers would be at incredible risk from our hidden enemies.
Unfortunately, Durgan doesn't know that Szam Tass was a mere Simulacrum of an Epic or near-Epic foe. He thinks the lich that escaped is the real threat, and probably comparable in power to the one he defeated. So he would focus on that, make a plan to go after Szam Tass, and probably get destroyed (after derailing the campaign for however-long IRL, which I do not wish to do).
As I said before: the (1) cessation of leveling combined with (2) the high prevalence of higher-level NPCs and (3) conspiracies beyond our understanding is making it feel like we are consigned to be bit players forever. In contrast to my experience in Paizo APs. I had thought this might be changing.
This most recent episode, as I noted, was a HUGE part of the campaign. Spanning a year and a half and many battles. Although we were lower level than the NPCs, we were not so low as to be irrelevant. It felt like we were making a difference, and our contributions were on par with theirs. Then, we finally get to fight the mastermind behind this episode and seemingly defeat him... It felt great! It felt like we actually mattered! Only to then realize OOC that our victory was utterly meaningless. The true mastermind is a CL18+ lich, and I have no hope that we will ever be able to contend with them. That revelation was so disheartening.
Absent terrible writing, given such a foe with 1) magic, 2) knowledge of the PCs, 3) genius-level intelligence, 4) freedom to act, and 5) no counterbalancing PC allies, they can and should utterly annihilate the PCs before they become a threat. The only way a story with such a foe works is if one of 1-5 is not true, or if there is some other factor of equal significance. There isn't here. "He just doesn't feel like it" is unsatisfactory, because Durgan would have to try to destroy Szam Tass after what he did.
Anyway... I think what I want out of a game is not what the GM wants and I don't see any path forward. I am withdrawing from this campaign. Best of luck. It was great playing with you all.
I suppose IC Durgan can, and will, abandon the Kingdom idea to focus on Szam Tass; it could be that if he finds the right information he would realize just what an insanely powerful threat he is up against, and would focus on gathering allies, perhaps going back to Mendev. That is not, I think, the story you all want to play nor the story the GM wants to tell.
Things are bit busy for me through this Saturday (UAW stuff ;)), so it will probably be late Sunday (EST) before I can get in to address 'doom' and/or 'gloom' and post treasure and such.
From my perspective, I am just wondering how far off track we have gotten. I have not read Kingmaker, but it does feel like we've gotten sidetracked a little bit. That said, I have enjoyed the campaign so far and will stay with it as long as I am able or as long as it runs.
Now, Serena's opinion is that the lich has twice embarrassed her. It needs to be destroyed. Maybe not in the short term, but certainly that is a long-term goal. Her quest to destroy it originally stemmed from it being undead and all, but now it is personal!
Finally, my thoughts on Durgan's departure. I hate seeing anyone go, but if you're not enjoying the campaign, I understand your reasons. I have left a campaign for similar reasons in the past. It was just a difference between what the GM wanted and what I wanted. It happens.
I mirror Serena's sentiment.
We definitely did not always see eye to eye on topics, but I would be sad to see Durgan go.
Differences in alignment and visions for the future aside, he is a great character.
But I DO understand the sentiment.
For all intents and purposes, it feels like we are surrounded by enemies. We had trouble with a neighbouring nation, a rogue mage(or two, if we count Stroon in case something happened to his sister - maybe three if Dool does not get a tower and gets pissed), that Drow Fortress beneath the Sycamore, a superpowered Lich and whatever he hides beneath the Elk Temple, the Aspis Consortium, ...
So many NPC interest groups have a bone with us to pick, it seems that a permanent settlement is just giving them a target - before we were moving, and in Brevoy, out of their reach, but if we are now "stuck" in a place we are trying to build up, that just means they have a spot they can corner us in.
And we can't really hope for backing from Brevoy alone, ser Richard was certainly not beyond the reach of our enemies.
My original reason coming here was to find something hidden in Telvurin, and lay claim to it. With Zokon, there was a good reason to stay and have the means to find what I am looking for.
Now?
I'm curious how we turn this towards "we try and do this regardless of all the dangers and people killed and regardless of the fact that basically all of the killers except Staggie himself are still out there and ready to escalate things."
I mean, the sensible thing would be to find an Elf Gate, go meet my brother, tell him that the approach we settled on did not work, fetch a company of elite troops and just focus on searching the woods slaughtering anything that could mean trouble until I find it.
But even if I disregard my personal motivation for coming here, with Zokon as NPC-King it will be a difficult role.
Basically I feel we are already WAY too deep in several plots, and by this point we should be commited already by having our kingdom in place, a capital and some settlements to be involved with, to feel something is at stake. Something that prevents us from turning our back, or saying "it's too dangerous to START doing something now". It seems like we basically skipped the first couple downtimes and kingdom management sessions and are now in the "everything around crumbles"-stage but without any investment in the region on our part that essentially forces us to ride things out.
But I'm quite willing to hear GM out on his doom/gloom address, just wanted to express my concerns as well.
(Also, one of the reasons I wanted to kickstart kingdom building, because it SEEMS we should be much further along. Not just nourishing a first settlement. And if we get resources from different sources(e.g. Alia from Kyonin) that could include some troops that could provide a measure of safety, at least for the settlements.)
Sorry to see you go Durgan. But it was fun to have you while we did. Best of luck out there :)
First off, sorry to everyone there hasn't been much time to even read the few posts previous to my last post until now, especially Aldizog (Durgan), who has PM still sitting in my in-box that will be red for another few minutes.
Kingmaker as I have said in the past is a sandbox wherein the players get to make a lot of the decisions. I try to lean into that as much as I can to allow folks to chart their own way and into other adventures. If folks want to go off and be Shackles pirates they can if they want to. In fact, if you really want to hunt down Tass in-game you could do that too.
It is a common theme in TTRPGs to want to not leave a foe at your back. I totally get that. Games nowadays tend to veer toward 'combat balance' or as close as they can get to it. So one often feels that they should be able to smack Darth Vader around at first level and be okay because 'why else would he be here if not to fight? He's probably a first level Vader.' I kinda hate that. I'm more of the school of thought that seriously dangerous villains should be seriously dangerous villains. If a PC runs into a CR 25 dragon at a low level they should at least come away respecting the villain's power. I'm not going to go out of my way to kill anyone, but don't to tug on evil Superman's cape, until you've got some green kryponite, and a +5 sword. The usual D&D villain is someone the party never sees or speaks to until they kill them four rounds later in the last room of the dungeon.
With all that said, I did try to fill the party's lowest levels with some of the campaign's higher-level villains, if only so you could see them now, and hopefully learn something of them before you actually have to fight them yourselves. (Kingmaker can have a lot of politics.) Most of them are not here for you to fight now. Though I have to admit I was surprised myself that the dark elf wizard got away.
I'm not sure that's 'doom' and/or 'gloom,' but I have to send this before it is not Sunday (EST). And maybe think about having what will be a very late lunch.
Scattershot answers to various points.
On the other hand we've got another name for our quite long "don't like list" and the feeling that list is growing a lot faster then we can manage to trim. Which is a concern ic for our characters health and a bit ooc because there's a lot of foes to keep track of. Plus the forgotten realms point (I adore that setting though ... But sadly not everyone agree I'm always right :p).
Durgan's not wrong here, though I would argue that much of Tolkien is told from the point of view of low-level Hobbits, who even though they aren't fighting balrogs or leading armies or cutting down dozens of orcs still heroically contribute to fight against evil, and then left on their own and leveled up, they overthrow a dangerous tyrant in their homeland. Eldiocesan has a demonstrated dislike for Tass, so it seems reasonable to point him in the lich's direction. Likewise, the government in Brevoy while generally CN is likely to not want their nobles killed out of hand by an ancient evil. It's not like Luke and the other rebels didn't know where the Emperor was all those years they were fighting him.
As for the high level NPCs and their possible connection or not with your kingdom. You can invite whomever you like or not. The party has had the chance to mix with many of them and probably has options on who might be nice to invite for over for tea and sign a trade agreement with who not to. The churches of Brevoy are going to want to see their religions spread, the investors are going to be tied up building their dominions up from nothing, and the traders are capitalists (so probably NE).
The Old Sycamore and the Silver Mine, and Dragons. The dark elf city is under the Sootscale kobolds Silver Mine. The party cleared the Old Sycamore of mites. Since no one really got super close to the mirror to look around at the landscape nobody really knows what that stone balcony overlooks or where the big blue dragon is. It could be in Tian Xia.
...nourishing the Kingdom....
Actually we are at the point (have been, actually for a while) where you are supposed to be starting your initial settlement which entails about 1.5 years of "downtime." Quotes ("...") because there are a couple of set events, and some random events that can happen depending upon dice and a chart, RP, and the party could always go off and do other things.
More randomness and loot after I get up later today.
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To be clear, I am perfectly fine with meeting Lord Vader early on.
But I'd prefer to be a lowly stormtrooper on the verge of deserting that watches as big daddy single-handedly storms some place.
Or be a civilian onlooker that watches him take apart a rebel group meeting in the cantina where I'm going to meet some smuggler.
When I am part of the Rebel Alliance, he storms my frozen base with a ground assault, randomly blasts some people, then lightsabers my supervisor, before shouting "stay off my lawn" and going back to the Executor, I don't quite feel confident making a new frozen rebel base on the same planet assuming I'll be quite fine if I prevent my Taun-Tauns from wandering near his flower garden.
Know what I mean?
These NPC's were not just introduced in the campaign. This was not a CR 25 evil-colored Dragon that was passing overhead or burning a village in the distance.
Their actions were in direct reaction to something we did and they took notice of us. They confronted us and slaughtered people associating with us.
I'm fine with evil superman flying around over the Stolen Lands, as long as we're beneath him, and he simple does not care if Staglord, We or Pitax calls the shots, because he is busy with things way out of scope.
It's when he takes time to land, slap some people into buildings producing fine red mist and a few ruins, then gives us the middle-finger before taking off again that I start to worry what else might trigger him.
Long story short: I totally don't mind meeting higher-level NPC's that eventually turn into allies or enemies.
What I do mind is higher-level enemies that take notice of us and act in direct opposition, or multiple equal-level enemies that get away and quite possibly plot revenge or will amalgamate into a threat beyond our capacity to deal with.
That said, I didn't join to play Skulls and Shackles, I want to play kingmaker. It just seems very dangerous to attempt ot start up an initial settlement with the political landscape we find ourselves in at this point.
I also originally picked Soul Forger because I expected extensive travel- and downtimes in Kingmaker, but gave up on that, we were basically rushed most of the time and I never even managed to finish my own chainmail. Which is also why I was waiting for the opportunity to retrain(/rebuild) since give or take about 2 years now.(I remember waiting on doing the last level-up because I hoped I might not need to retrain it)
I did see both the GM's post and his PM to me. I apologize for being hasty and possibly changing my mind; it is not my intention to jerk anybody around.
I have 5 1/2 years invested in this game, and find the other players great to game with. I do not wish to throw it away, but I struggle to see how there is any hope. The reason that the Szam Tass revelation was such a breaking point is that he is a high-level caster with freedom to act and personal knowledge of (and hatred for) us. Alia hit that point really clearly in her post above.
While it may stretch narrative plausibility that PCs only ever encounter CR-appropriate foes (and, to be clear, that is not something I have ever expected or asked for - I thought the nuckelavee a fine inclusion for example), it completely shatters narrative plausibility for such a BBEG caster to sit around and wait for the PCs to level up. That is a far worse offense against logic.
Any such foe would kill the PCs well before they become a threat. And that is why every good story or AP has a reason why the BBEG caster cannot or will not do that. They don't have freedom to act (as in the case of Karzoug or Sauron), they are just not very intelligent (Xykon), they do not know of the PCs yet (Tar-Baphon), or they are trying to be subtle as they are not all-powerful (War for the Crown BBEGs). In all of these cases, the caster BBEG is telegraphed well in advance, but has a constraint such that they cannot wipe out the PCs at low level.
But maybe there is something we can do. And specifically, the GM's post of 1.5 years of downtime combined with his note in a PM about Eldiocesan might give me an answer.
The thing I would have Durgan do in departing the game would be to basically hide behind the skirts of Archbanker Barasav, Eldiocesan, Queen Galfrey of Mendev, and other high-level NPCs. Do everything he can to learn about Szam Tass while remaining protected; recruit allies; do errands for Eldiocesan in exchange for him telling the lich "Leave Avalon alone or I will come for you." Does this make any difference to what Szam Tass would have done? No - but it gives the PCs a credible reason to feel safe. "He just doesn't feel like wiping you out" is not something to count on. So Eldiocesan neutralizes the real Szam Tass, and we just have to deal with the possibility of a Simulacrum. Maybe Durgan learns something from Queen Galfrey that helps. The Archbanker helps with Sending, Teleport, Commune, and whatever else he is capable of.
The thing is, I imagine this would be exceptionally boring, very tangential to the Kingmaker plot, and exactly what I do not want in an RPG (being insignificant and depending on high-level NPCs). As I said, I do not want to derail the campaign into the "Counter-plot against Szam Tass" storyline. So I'd be happy to leave the campaign with Durgan departing to do that, so the party could then plausibly feel safe building Avalon.
But that could all happen in 1.5 years of downtime. Durgan could go off and do all of this while leaving his Manual of City-Building and some helpful notes.
BBEG casters are really hard to use well while maintaining narrative logic - they need some kind of constraint. Counterbalancing NPCs are one possible constraint here. I really, really do not wish to put the spotlight on the high-level NPCs, nor to consume campaign time with this extensive side-quest. Having 1.5 years of downtime does make it a plausible "off-screen" endeavor.
@GM, if you are fine with such a resolution, I would continue. I am happy to work with you on figuring out the details. If not, then I will depart with no hard feelings. Can Durgan do enough "off-screen" in the 1.5 years of down-time to give the party a credible reason to believe that they are safe from the direct interference of the real Szam Tass?
A brief feeling on the Tass point.
I didn't get the feeling he personally plotted our demise. (Because then we would probably be dead yeah :p)
It felt, after we tugged the strings a bit, like someone at his evil quarterly meeting noted that someone pushed over evil subplot #307 and asked if they could take the Magic Mirror of Evil for a joyride to met out an appropriate response.
For us it was a big thing, for the minion in charge of it it was probably a big thing. For the evil overlord himself it was tuesday (to quote another great villain).
That's just my reading of the situation. Maybe a bit hopeful, but it's enough to delude myself with :D
Barring anything further in Gameplay (restoring someone to life, searching for anyone still missing, etc...) you are finally sixth level.
The 'exploded room' added 5,500 to everyone's bank in whatever sort of treasure you wanted (with the caveat that you can't own one item worth more than a quarter of the total wealth you should have for being 6th level [1/4 = 4,000 gp]), I believe Illthir spent some of hers. This wealth can be used to pay the difference in 'plusses' on items that advance that way like armor and weapons and cloaks and such or hoarded for a future treasure.
This amount can be converted into loose coin or other mundane items, which could be useful in paying for settlement construction costs, or for being pocket change, although you would have to decide that now (at the time of finding the hoard).
I'm going to try and get those settlement rules up before the weekend, but let's just say everything is done in Build Points. Off the top of my head: clearing a hilly area to build upon costs 2BP, putting a shop on it costs 8BP, and every full 4,000gp you put toward a project adds 1BP to your fund. You start with 50BP + a few from the supplies taken from the Stag Lord's fort, and whatever deals you make here.
In addition to that there is an actual 455gp in loose coins here for each PC after the hoard is divvied up with other heroes.
While it may stretch narrative plausibility that PCs only ever encounter CR-appropriate foes (and, to be clear, that is not something I have ever expected or asked for - I thought the nuckelavee a fine inclusion for example), it completely shatters narrative plausibility for such a BBEG caster to sit around and wait for the PCs to level up. That is a far worse offense against logic.
He's actually doing stuff. He's just delegated his security detail. I take the point but for the record, I would argue that leveling up kinda breaks logic too. How many NPCs have ever kept pace with a story's PCs?
The thing I would have Durgan do in departing the game would be to basically hide behind the skirts of Archbanker Barasav, Eldiocesan, Queen Galfrey of Mendev, and other high-level NPCs. Do everything he can to learn about Szam Tass while remaining protected; recruit allies; do errands for Eldiocesan in exchange for him telling the lich "Leave Avalon alone...
You could do that in Avalon by being the community rec-center administrator. In every 70's and early-80's TV show everyone you cared about was working at the community rec-center.
Anyhow I somehow lost the rest of this big long reply (there was an Alia bit), so it will unfortunately have to wait until after work.
Lemme know if you want to do anything else at the manor before Akiros Ismort gets to say "Where in the Nine Hells have you been!?
I have posted a couple of top-of-the-page links to the Kingdom-building rules from Ultimate Campaign (starting on page 198 of the book) and the plug-in rules from Ultimate Rulership by Legendary Games which expand upon those.
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Have a deadline coming up this tuesday, so won't get too much up before then. I thought I was smart enough to post that to my games, but apparently not. So yeah, here it is at least :p
Right! So let's get my bearings here and please chime in if I'm missing something.
For homework there's
1) level up to 6
2) read up on kingdom building
3) add/double check loot!
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For the party to decide:
a) resurrection input?
b) backers & religion!
c) general plans
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The numbered stuff I'll manage but the rest is by-committee.
a) - I'm not sure we decided anything, but we had thoughts. I'll repeat mine: old corpses might just fizzle and powerful corpses has friends that can ress them. Maybe. On the other hand, powerful corpses might have more stuff to show their gratitude with :p
Still I vote that we decide this with our heart. It might be the last chance to do something friendly without neglecting a city or causing diplomatic clownery. If we figure out the shepherd is dead - and seeing there was a fake of him that seems likely - and find the corpse that has my vote. Otherwise Alisa - I think she was voted the most pleasant of the other visitors?
[If we could un-ressurect Stroon that'd be great but I don't think it works that way :p]
b) - I think Dool could provide interesting plots in the future. I also think he could annoy Stroon and sort of act like a lightning rod in that regard, which is nice.
Furthermore I wouldn't mind some of the nicer adventurers around. Handy help to have and they don't seem terribly likely to try and plot an uprising.
On the topic of religion ... Hmhmmrmmhmm. Will we sell our soul for either option? I'm not sure if any of the capital Lawful religions will be well received in the Stolen Lands. But I feel our clerical members have more important opinions on this.
c) - It seems to be to lick our wounds and build a city or three? Reading up on the (expanded) kingdom building rules will show how feasible things are. And the amount of backers too ...
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Did I miss anything? Thoughts?
My thoughts:
a) Alisa is the one that Serena would see resurrected, though her motives are strictly selfish. Shepherd, she would also agree to.
b) Serena would like to see Sarenrae at the forefront of any religious movements here (big surprise).
c) I agree that it's time to look at city building.
a) Two votes for Alisa!
Side Note: Shepherd Keegh is one of a couple of missing persons from THE BIG LIST O' NPCs the only other person still missing from the list is Igor, Ser Richard's head butler. Most folks who had met him before are confident that the genuine Shepherd was present for the early proceedings.
b) Dool is still interested in the hex containing the Stag Lord's fort. The party is aware that the site is at least good being on a hill with access to fresh water and fishing... and perhaps ancient evil witch cult activity(?).
c) I've got to reread it myself this weekend. I suggest as a group we do a mock run through just to see how it works in practice, before actually starting in earnest--a sort of alternate universe what could have been the beginning of Avalon scenario.
Hm.
a.: I did mention Alisa, too, before so thats 3 votes. The Shepherd is missing but we can't even consider him without any remains to work with. My hope is that he got away somehow - albeit the fact the creatures in the Hedge Maze managed to mimic him so well makes me doubt it.
b.: I think our capital is in that Hex, and we already started building it up and left that one dude in charge of getting things done while we were gone. So that hex is not up for sale.
Regarding the religious input, I am still not clear on what they would offer - making an agreement and only finding out afterwards doesn't sound like an informed decision, rather lottery.
I think Sandralane would stay around if she gets to build a Temple, which would bring another powerful NPC close, and she may be happy with a Temple in the capital, but understand that it's not an exclusive thing.
Which I think would be true for all the religions...and I think also not in their interest. I mean, Abadar is called out as being supportative of Erastils grassroots movement in bringing community into the wilderness that then is a basis for civilization and growth. I doubt he'd tell Erastil to get lost because thats his gig now.
Iomedae, as mentioned, could be a decent compromise.
Aside from the Dool and whatever religious figure, I'd think Alisa and Longtooth are worth giving spots. Longtooth did pull his weight and really helped, proactively, during that episode. Plus I have a feeling he might even make a good Spymaster-type sneaky organizer if he's interested in the job. (Like, let them have their domain, but if we can somehow "integrate" them in our fledgling nation, even better...less likely they isolate themselves, and may be more of autonomy regions rather than split-off free cities.)
c.: Sure, lets do a mock run. We still have to settle on how. If we do not run things in parallel and independent, but in one location deliberating over each building and potentially placement, I could see this being a very slow process.
Also, regarding the Level up to 6 - is there time for the rebuild/retraining? As said before, Alia would be mostly kept as-is flavorwise, just some mechanics would get shuffled.
a) Allisa it is!
b) So is the Stag Lord's Fort the capital (i.e. the first settlement) then? Anymore votes on who might be in or out? Note though Longtooth and Sandralane are rulers in their own right and not really (at present at least) people you can recruit for rulership positions within Avalon.
c) If I'm not working Saturday, I'll try and have all of the needed web stuff up by then.
PS More posting tonight.
I'm not working Saturday either but still time doesn't seem to show up :p
I *think* we started building at the Stag lord's fort then. At least fluff-wise, we haven't spent any abstracted kingdom building resources yet :p
Don't think I mind moving the capital site either OOC. Not sure what Illthir feels about it IC tbh. Anyone else have any thoughts on Dool and our home?
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Now to check out the 15 post I've been neglecting... I'll try and be back after that to recap :)
Right! We're in the deciding step. Deciding things is hard, doubly so in PBP.
I shall, tomorrow morning, make a sheet of all the stuff we need to decide on and then bully my fellow adventurers to fill it out. Then I shall tally the results and we'll have a decision, one way or another before our frazzled gm implodes :p
In the meanwhile - can anyone think of any other things but sponsors we need to decide?