Why is magical flight so terrible?

I fly straight up and roll less than amazing and end up in the dirt right in front of the BBEG I was trying to fly away from.

Why was flight nerfed so hard? I just wanted to get away from the mind controller before I murdered my party as commanded by the BBEG...

x.x

tell me specifics, I'm assuming fly the spell, but level dex and skill and class please.

heh? Unless you did something very wrong in reading the rules, I don't even know how that happened. Flying doesn't require any checks unless you are doing a complex maneuver.

It is a 'complex maneuver' to fly strait up (dc 20), however you guys read the rules wrong. if you are flying magically you never fall to the ground from a failed check, that only happens when you are using wings. The failed check should have cost you a move action (and caused you to fall 10 feet if failed by 5 or more). That's it.

Flying straight up = DC 20 Fly check -- higher if the conditions are bad (e.g. high winds). Even then, you go up at half speed.

There are a lot of Fly checks that a lot of DM's ignore to keep thing moving (literally and figuratively). E.g., fly at less than half speed, hover, sharp turns. But if one is a stickler for the rules, all these things require checks (though I might make an exception for magical flight, for instance on staying aloft while moving less than half speed and hovering. If levitate would let you do it, fly probably should too. But the rules are silent about it.)

It's a DC 20 check to fly up at a greater that 45 degrees angle. So yes, you need a check to fly straight up.

It's not exactly the best anymore, but flying is still powerful even with the nerf. Though you do only plummet if you fail the check by 5 or more. Luckily it's only DC 10 to negate falling damage. :)

The problem was that I was flying straight up?

...

If the DM had said that that was the reason I would have not flown straight up...?

Because this is a fantasy game, not a superhero game?

Because this is a fantasy game, not a superhero game?

It's not? Well, it totally fooled me then.

If it's Fly, the spell, then you should have received a bonus to your Fly skill equal to 1/2 your CL. Did you remember to add that?

If it's Fly, the spell, then you should have received a bonus to your Fly skill equal to 1/2 your CL. Did you remember to add that?

I did, don't have good dex, am an alchemist.

Because this is a fantasy game, not a superhero game?

Am I being trolled?

Zhayne wrote:

Because this is a fantasy game, not a superhero game?

Am I being trolled?

Trolls can't fly!

Trolls can't fly!

Sounds like an excellent idea for a subrace.

137ben wrote:

Trolls can't fly!

Sounds like an excellent idea for a subrace.

Miniature butterfly trolls, yes....

Melkiador wrote:

137ben wrote:

Trolls can't fly!

Sounds like an excellent idea for a subrace.

Miniature butterfly trolls, yes....

You just invented the flying cockroach.

felinoel wrote:

Melkiador wrote:

137ben wrote:

Trolls can't fly!

Sounds like an excellent idea for a subrace.

Miniature butterfly trolls, yes....

You just invented the flying cockroach.

They can already fly. He is now infringing on mother nature's copyright

Because this is a fantasy game, not a superhero game?

People who want superhero characters should just play Mutants and Masterminds.

Magical flight is "terrible" because it's so &*%$ good for a 3rd level spell that it has to be a bit terrible.

Terrible? Since when is it terrible? You attempted a maneuver that you apparently were unlikely to succeed at since you have no dex (though as an alchemist I can't understand why). Instead you could have just flied in a way that wasn't above a 45 degree angle and escaped without a problem. Did you bother to put any ranks in the fly skill?

I mean sure, it takes a little effort to get the most out of magical. But it literally just requires bothering to put a few points into it as a skill and having a decent dex score, when combined with the innate bonus from the spell....you just bit off more than you could chew it sounds like.

Better luck next time?

The problem was that I was flying straight up?

...

If the DM had said that that was the reason I would have not flown straight up...?

I have to ask, did someone else in the party just give you Fly or did you just find an item that would let you Fly and you were unaware of what the rules for flying were, or did you plan to Fly and just not think to look them up.

Not trying to be rude or mean spirited just curious.

137ben wrote:

Trolls can't fly!

Sounds like an excellent idea for a subrace.

I had a friend for whom it became a bit of an inside joke for him to run into variant trolls no matter which character he might be on or which of his other friends might be the GM.

Vegetarian Trolls
Flying, Fire-breathing Trolls
Giant Trolls (long before such actually appeared in the MM/official game)
Trolls immune to fire and acid
And, of course, any and all new variants as soon as they were published. He truly learned to hate trolls of any sort even if well dressed, well spoken and very civilized :p.

"Why do I suck at something I invested no skill points in, even though it's a class skill and totally on my extract list, which I clearly knew, because I used the extract?"

Um...cause you chose poorly.

Dex makes like 2-3 pts difference. At the level you can fly you can have a +10 from ranks and class skill bonus alone.

Size and dex are just frosting on the skill cake.

Can't take any ranks until you can fly, though.

With 4+IntMod per level ranks in an intelligence based, nearly SAD class, there's no reason you couldn't go from chump to expert flier the second you got the extract.

With 4+IntMod per level ranks in an intelligence based, nearly SAD class, there's no reason you couldn't go from chump to expert flier the second you got the extract.

Wanting to put ranks in other skills springs to mind. Not saying it can't be done but I've never see a player instantly max out their fly skill.

Can't take any ranks until you can fly, though.

Assuming he used an extract of fly, he more than qualifies for that.

thegreenteagamer wrote:

With 4+IntMod per level ranks in an intelligence based, nearly SAD class, there's no reason you couldn't go from chump to expert flier the second you got the extract.

Wanting to put ranks in other skills springs to mind. Not saying it can't be done but I've never see a player instantly max out their fly skill.

True, but hitting fifth level and not putting at least 1 in as a full caster with access to fly (or at whatever level you are with other characters when you get regular access to flying) is a bit silly.

It doesn't take much to be good enough.

As an Int based caster with 4 skill ranks per level, not being able to drop the full 7 ranks in the skill the level he gets it (for alchemist level 7) is kinda poor planning.

That said, he should have at least +13 the level he gets it. (7 ranks, 3 class skill, 1/2 caster level =3, plus alchemist should have dex for bombs, so say +15. Skills don't auto fail even on a 1, so no chance of failing by more than 5 anyways, (though as noted above using the fly spell doesn't have the same penalties for flying as wings do).

It sucks because your GM was being kind of a jerk. Let's be real here.

I fly straight up and roll less than amazing and end up in the dirt right in front of the BBEG I was trying to fly away from.

Why was flight nerfed so hard? I just wanted to get away from the mind controller before I murdered my party as commanded by the BBEG...

x.x

First off, just in case you're missing something off your check: if you can use an extract of fly, you should have at least a +7 to the check from that alone (1/2 caster level [minimum 7th because alchemical] plus 4 for good maneuverability). If you've had at least a day or two to practice for a bit, then you should be able to put a minimum of one rank in it too, which also provides you a +3 class skill bonus. So, now we're up to at least a +11, maybe more depending on your skill ranks. Again, just in case your bonus was less than it should be.

Also, it's magical flight, so you don't have to roll to avoid falling as long as you move at least half your total fly speed in a round. If you fail the check to climb at a steep enough rate or make a sharp turn, you simply go the maximum possible in either direction of 45 degrees. The only time you should have to roll a check to avoid falling is if you move slower than that or you fail a hover check, which are DC 10 and 15 respectively. So, you should theoretically never fail the first and rarely fail the second, especially later on in the game.

Fly doesn't suck but neither is it the be-all-end-all skill of the game.

EDIT: I'm curious, what are you using your mutagen for? Is the ability score bonus going to Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution? Because a +4 Dex bonus for 10 minutes/level on a class like the alchemical is a really good deal, if you want to do bombs, flying, and get some better defenses going.

Who says Alchemists need Dex?

It sucks because your GM was being kind of a jerk. Let's be real here.

He may just have been unaware of some of the specifics regarding flying. Missing details happens to the best of GMs. Our group, after playing 3.X for years, made the transition to PF and it took 3 years for someone to notice you could now critically hit/sneak attack plants, constructs, and the undead.

The problem was that I was flying straight up?

...

If the DM had said that that was the reason I would have not flown straight up...?

@felinoel, did you cast the fly spell on yourself? Or did the GM forced it upon you?

If you prepared and choose to cast fly on yourself, shouldn't you have the responsibility to read up on the spell and how flying works?

And yes the GM could have reminded you, but you should not expect it from every GM. Even more so if your in PFS and playing a lv 5+ character.

This scenario reminds me of countless PbP games and podcasts I've read/listened to where a PC fails a misc ride check, and the GM says "Ok, you have fallen off of your horse."

That's not how it works. (with the notable exception of the you take any damage, make a DC 5 ride check to Stay In Saddle.)

felinoel wrote:

I fly straight up and roll less than amazing and end up in the dirt right in front of the BBEG I was trying to fly away from.

Why was flight nerfed so hard? I just wanted to get away from the mind controller before I murdered my party as commanded by the BBEG...

x.x

First off, just in case you're missing something off your check: if you can use an extract of fly, you should have at least a +7 to the check from that alone (1/2 caster level [minimum 7th because alchemical] plus 4 for good maneuverability). If you've had at least a day or two to practice for a bit, then you should be able to put a minimum of one rank in it too, which also provides you a +3 class skill bonus.

Right - +7 fly skill

You can take 10 on this check - so if you don't put any points into the skill at all you have a +17 unless you are trying something really tricky or there is a hurricane.

You should always be able to hover - you should always be able to move at a 45 degree angle (i.e. half speed up - note the 45 degree angle is a full speed move but you only move 1/2 the distance - it's 1/2 forward and 1/2 up)

If you put a *single* point into the fly skill you get a +4 (3 for class skill) to the check.

So lets assume you really dumped dex and it's a 4. That's a -3 on the check - so a 15 with take 10. That still lets you hover and move 1/2 speed without making a fly check. Is your Dex a 1?

Zhayne wrote:

Because this is a fantasy game, not a superhero game?

People who want superhero characters should just play Mutants and Masterminds.

Really? Because there are several classes & archetypes that are designed for people who want to be superheroes.

Shield Champion brawler is pretty clearly Captain America.
Mysterious Avenger Swashbuckler is your pick of Zorro/The Shadow/Batman
Grenadier Alchemist is Hawkeye
Hooded Champion Ranger is Green Arrow.
Mutagenic Mauler Brawler is Bane.
The Kinectist is able to be any elemental mutant or the human torch.

This is just off the top of my head.

People who find inspiration in Superheroes are not having badwrongfun.

Barathos wrote:

Zhayne wrote:

Because this is a fantasy game, not a superhero game?

People who want superhero characters should just play Mutants and Masterminds.

Really? Because there are several classes & archetypes that are designed for people who want to be superheroes.

Shield Champion brawler is pretty clearly Captain America.
Mysterious Avenger Swashbuckler is your pick of Zorro/The Shadow/Batman
Grenadier Alchemist is Hawkeye
Hooded Champion Ranger is Green Arrow.
Mutagenic Mauler Brawler is Bane.
The Kinectist is able to be any elemental mutant or the human torch.

This is just off the top of my head.

People who find inspiration in Superheroes are not having badwrongfun.

Most of those archetypes you listed arent very super.

I'm just saying m&m does a better job at it, nothing about how they shouldnt do it. You don't have to get defensive at someone pointing out that a game other than pathfinder does the thing it's all about a bit better.

Also, it's magical flight, so you don't have to roll to avoid falling as long as you move at least half your total fly speed in a round. If you fail the check to climb at a steep enough rate or make a sharp turn, you simply go the maximum possible in either direction of 45 degrees. The only time you should have to roll a check to avoid falling is if you move slower than that or you fail a hover check, which are DC 10 and 15 respectively. So, you should theoretically never fail the first and rarely fail the second, especially later on in the game.

I don't think you can ever fall using magical flight. Failing a fly check (by 5 or more) only has an effect if you use wings to fly. RAW you need to make checks for moving less then half your speed or hovering, but the result has absolutly no effect whatsoever.

So on the original topic: Rapid ascension without investment in the fly skill might be bad. The OP should have just ascended at 45° - you can do that without a single point in fly and with 1 dex, no check required.

You can take 10 on this check - so if you don't put any points into the skill at all you have a +17 unless you are trying something really tricky or there is a hurricane.

If what he was saying about there being hostile forces nearby was true, that should definitely count as 'immediate danger/distracted'. Ergo, not in combat he wouldn't be able take 10 in that particular situation. Otherwise though, yeah that'd work.

I don't think you can ever fall using magical flight. Failing a fly check (by 5 or more) only has an effect if you use wings to fly. RAW you need to make checks for moving less then half your speed or hovering, but the result has absolutly no effect whatsoever.

If you don't fall or descend in some way, then why even require a check to hover? Pass the check = you hover; don't pass the check = you also hover? Seems like a common sense conclusion that those two checks apply equally to winged/wingless flight.

Ckorik wrote:

You can take 10 on this check - so if you don't put any points into the skill at all you have a +17 unless you are trying something really tricky or there is a hurricane.

If what he was saying about there being hostile forces nearby was true, that should definitely count as 'immediate danger/distracted'. Ergo, not in combat he wouldn't be able take 10 in that particular situation. Otherwise though, yeah that'd work.

Derklord wrote:

I don't think you can ever fall using magical flight. Failing a fly check (by 5 or more) only has an effect if you use wings to fly. RAW you need to make checks for moving less then half your speed or hovering, but the result has absolutly no effect whatsoever.

If you don't fall or descend in some way, then why even require a check to hover? Pass the check = you hover; don't pass the check = you also hover? Seems like a common sense conclusion that those two checks apply equally to winged/wingless flight.

If you fail the Hover check (or the less than half your speed check), you MUST move at least half your speed.

Cerberus Seven wrote:

Ckorik wrote:

You can take 10 on this check - so if you don't put any points into the skill at all you have a +17 unless you are trying something really tricky or there is a hurricane.

If what he was saying about there being hostile forces nearby was true, that should definitely count as 'immediate danger/distracted'. Ergo, not in combat he wouldn't be able take 10 in that particular situation. Otherwise though, yeah that'd work.

Derklord wrote:

I don't think you can ever fall using magical flight. Failing a fly check (by 5 or more) only has an effect if you use wings to fly. RAW you need to make checks for moving less then half your speed or hovering, but the result has absolutly no effect whatsoever.

If you don't fall or descend in some way, then why even require a check to hover? Pass the check = you hover; don't pass the check = you also hover? Seems like a common sense conclusion that those two checks apply equally to winged/wingless flight.

If you fail the Hover check (or the less than half your speed check), you MUST move at least half your speed.

Wait it's harder to float in one spot than to move?

Wait it's harder to float in one spot than to move?

Yes. Moving at your speed in a straight line takes no skill check. Hovering takes a skill check. If you've ever tried flying an airplane, you'll see that it is indeed harder to fly if you don't move forwards.

Barathos wrote:

Zhayne wrote:

Because this is a fantasy game, not a superhero game?

People who want superhero characters should just play Mutants and Masterminds.

Really? Because there are several classes & archetypes that are designed for people who want to be superheroes.

Shield Champion brawler is pretty clearly Captain America.
Mysterious Avenger Swashbuckler is your pick of Zorro/The Shadow/Batman
Grenadier Alchemist is Hawkeye
Hooded Champion Ranger is Green Arrow.
Mutagenic Mauler Brawler is Bane.
The Kinectist is able to be any elemental mutant or the human torch.

This is just off the top of my head.

People who find inspiration in Superheroes are not having badwrongfun.

Wait. You forgot the obvious one.

Wizard is Doctor Strange.

Back onto track though. Fly as a skill is one of those things I just sorta streamline in play most times. After all, the Fly spell itself goes a good ways towards ensuring that you will have a hard time failing most of the Fly checks by 5 or more. Add in a few ranks, and you're solid.

Nah, Dr. Strange is the Sorcerer Supreme. ;)

Wait it's harder to float in one spot than to move?

Sure. Make yourself a paper airplane and see for yourself.

Can I just point out something.

Maneuverability: Creatures with a fly speed receive a bonus (or penalty) on all Fly checks depending on their maneuverability:

Which is +4 for "Fly" the spell so at 5th level it is impossible to fall without a -2 or -3 dexterity modifier when added to the half caster level bonus. With a good dex you can eventually reach auto success rates.

Can I just point out something.

Quote:

Maneuverability: Creatures with a fly speed receive a bonus (or penalty) on all Fly checks depending on their maneuverability:

Which is +4 for "Fly" the spell so at 5th level it is impossible to fall without a -2 or -3 dexterity modifier when added to the half caster level bonus. With a good dex you can eventually reach auto success rates.

If the DC is 20, and you fall when failing by 5 or more, why is it impossible?

Even with a dex of 14, at level 5 you only have a +8 total if you don't have any ranks in Fly. So if you rolled a 7 or less, you'd fall.

Can I just point out something.

Quote:

Maneuverability: Creatures with a fly speed receive a bonus (or penalty) on all Fly checks depending on their maneuverability:

Which is +4 for "Fly" the spell so at 5th level it is impossible to fall without a -2 or -3 dexterity modifier when added to the half caster level bonus. With a good dex you can eventually reach auto success rates.

For an alchemist +7 - if he puts a point int the fly skill that's +4.

We will assume his dex is horrible and his net (for 1 skill point) is a +8 (-3 dex)

That still puts him at needing to only roll a 2 or better to move less than 1/2 speed (5 foot step anyone?) and only needing a 7 or better to hover.

That's from a single skill point.

If he put 4-5 skill points in it he'd be in the 'only fail on a 1' for hover and 5 or better for a straight up.

At some point he could realistically say 'why am I rolling' with a few more skill points - you can't fail a skill check on a 1 - so once he has a high enough skill that a 1 will bring him over the check needed he can stop making those rolls.

The point being that it shouldn't be really that difficult.

I assumed ranks in fly because you're a wizard for god's sake human 20 int wizards have up to NINE skills/level. Most wizards will have 7 or so skills/level.