Lords of Creation

Game Master stringburka

So, I'm interested in the opinions of those who haven't spoken up yet. Do you feel we don't need anything changed or adjudicated here? Did the game suddenly become not the game you signed on for?

Maybe nothing needs to change. But let's get consensus and see if worlds go to war so soon.

I never asked to be a Mod for mainly 2 reason. 1 is that at the time I entered I felt there was a good enough ratio of Mods/Players, actually almost imbalanced towards too many mods, and the second is that I wanted to appeal to others in judging the game.

Anyway... I would never say that the game suddenly became not the game I signed on for.
I felt that the instantaneous technological leap forward of the Oreads is a missed opportunity. That's probably comes from the fact that I'm a huge nerd when it comes to history or Civilization-like games.
I would have really enjoyed to see and even participate in the Oread's ascension as a technological superpower while I feel that at the moment they are the less definite entity in the game.
I feel it's even hard to make a reply post about them because every concept around the Oreads is extremely vague.
They have an entire planet but we know nothing about it, while every single continent created in the other world is way better descripted. We have an Idea of it's geography, of the vegetation and the animals that we can find there.
I assume that the Oreads are human or at least humanoid, but that is an assumption... because it was never established.
To me it's not about points or about advantages or about conflict... to me he could build orbital lasers of mass destruction and level a continent with it.
But I would like to know something about it. how they developed to that level, what the typical Oread looks like, what is their society about, do they have any kind of internal struggle?
They have ever fought each other? if not what drives them to build weapons in the first place.
I think these are all elements that would flesh out the Oreads, that's something that I think would make the Oreads a meaningful contribution to the game.
I do not propose a reset button at all .. I'm strongly against that idea. What I would like to see is a bigger development of the game elements, especially before such an aggressive move.
Let's suppose that they have invaded the Jezites instead of the people and that I would have a way more direct need to interact with the Oreads, I would be at a loss at the moment, because I literally don't know how to incorporate them in one of my post having so little description of them. While I do not encounter the same problem with anything else present in the game.
That's pretty much it.
I'm ok with space travel without previous knowledge (I do not agree, but it's not that big of a deal) what I would like to require is a bigger description of the oreads, oread society, oread's planet and oread history. Something that helps the other player knowing what are they and how to incorporate them into their play.

Looking at what you guys have said, I say I agree. I was making an insane power grab at the beginning of the game, setting the stage for creating new life forms and terraforming areas without AP, and, in a nutshell, violating most rules of the game.

Because I specifically designed my Oreads to be genius forgers, I think it's okay if they got at a faster rate of progression than the other world-which still needs a name. Perhaps 2 to 3 times faster.

But even if Mirrodin was created at the same time as the other world, it would be at about, oh, pretty much late Renaissance, not Steampunk era.

Also, I think that we should make technology tiers:

1 AP: Stone Age
2 AP: Bronze Age
3 AP: Iron Age
4 AP: Middle Ages
5 AP: Renaissance
6 AP: Steampunk/Clockpunk
7 AP: Modern Age
8 AP: Space Age
9 AP: Biopunk
10 AP: Cyberpunk

You may level your culture up to 4 tiers per AP rollover.

How does this sound?

I'd be perfectly happy to retcon my actions. However, another question: What do you think would be a reasonable cost for creating a whole new planet? If gods wanted to create something like that, I think it should be equivalent to 7 AP, leaving 8 AP to create sentient life, create concepts, and level up technology.

I know I am late to the party but I have to agree with Jez on this one.

I expressed my uncertainty of Lag being able to build a space traveling race AND a entire planet on only 14 AP when that was first posted or at least fairly soon afterwards.
For comparison I created Leviathans, made one a demigod, made an island, made merepeople and created them into a simple society.

I do have some issues with the progression, given the 1AP society is ONLY supposed to be a step up to an agrarian society over a hunter gather society(per the rules), which I do not believe would have the organization needed to create space ships. Additionally, (bit of a space nerd, my apologizes in advance) I have a lot of issues with steam punk being a high enough tech level to allow for space travel. It just russles my jimmies.

All of that being said, given that events have already been put into motion I do not feel as it would be right of me to ask for history to be rewritten; however, I think something need to be sorted out for the future.

I adore the level/chart/progression suggestion that Lag put out and put my vote for it being a good guideline.

Just a side note due to possible war/conflict showing up in game soon, if not now.
Yir's star creation is her Leviathans, more specifically her little Demigod of death, Asildon.

@Lagdorn: 5 AP. The "Weave Plane" ability is also used for making planets on the Material plane.

@Erande, Given I believe I have control of the sea serpents now feel free to voyage, I'm still willing to give your hero a run for his money if you so wish.
Also I noticed you didn't gift my merepeople with anything. :P
(feel free to interact with them, that goes for all Gods as well)

@ Lagdorn
I don't mind the "powergrab"
Mechanically speaking Aeon's paladins
I just would really like to see a more complete description about the Oreads.
Then .. personally I would have liked to see a gradual evolution of technology. but that was never a mechanical concern or a matter of how many points you spend.
It's a storytelling one. I would have liked to read about their evolution from cavemen to space technology in the same way I'm following the tales of the barbarian who is destined to become king. he has a goal but instead of saying ... he is a barbarian and he became king of the new continent conquering a sword, all in a couple of days, Erande delayed that destiny and things happened.
Dragons came into the sea, a rival appeared among his own people, his promised land is now populated by a civilization that practices human sacrifice and blood magic, and the place where the sword he needs to wield to become a legend rests became the home of 7 vampires.
And IMHO that's what makes this game interesting. the fact that no "story" really survives the story of other players but is made together.

@ Erande.... but to be honest pretty much everyone.
I have noticed a lot of misconceptions on the rules for qualifying for a Domain.
Having a domain requires the expense of 7 AP POINTS
It doesn't requires 7 different actions

You can gain a dominion by 2 actions alone provided that together they cost 7 points.
You make no progression at all for 0 point actions.
And if you already spend 7 points in less than 7 actions you already qualify for the domain.

I think I saw people using 3 or 4 points action and considering them a single step towards the domain.

Oh, yeah. Regardless of the AP cost (as long as it's 1 or more), I figure all points spent can count towards a domain as long as it makes some sort of sense. ^^

...

And I mean normal sense, not Yidhra's. XD

Once I regain control of the computer (typing from my iPod right meow), I will post a complete description of the Oreads. In the meantime, I will think about possible ways to take my creations down a notch. Maybe, because he's pissed at the fact that my space nazis are going through the People's land and slaughtering them, he sends down an angel army to stop the madness? Lagdorn would be cool with that, it would just mean that he would be able to forge new creations without the old ones getting in the way.

I will also modify my AP costs for creating Mirodin down 4 points, since I thought it was 9 points at the beginning.

I'm starting to feel like the bad guy here but.....

Sigh ... Lagdorn ... you have made a mess again...

1) Magical concepts are 3 Ap .. you self corrected on that ... but looks like you created 3 magical concepts, that would cost a total of 9 points, to further prove the point, balance magic is counted into balance domain so is considerate a separate concept from light and dark.

2) You made your own ruling on regaining a fraction of AP for destroying your own race. You should ask a mod.

3) You state that your magic concept is exclusive to your race. that's not permitted except maybe with a divine decree, Every god could challenge you for your magical concept and then giving it to any creature/society

4) You state you spent 1 AP to advance to stone age. Once again .. you have played a rule you made for your own that no Mod have endorsed yet.

It IS starting to become not the game I signed on for

Could I make a suggestion?

Everybody, old and new alike, should take a small break from spending any AP, until a more solid system is in place. Not just from AP spending, but in general.

If you seek an action that is not currently covered by the normal AP expenditures, you should hold off and ask here in the discussion, and then wait for some sort of general consensus, with at least 1 Mod weighing in.

While this may seem incredibly slow and bulky, it can be quite helpful. For example, Lagdorn could be awarded half AP for his destroyed races, plus he could also gain AP if he were to negate his Concepts too.

I also agree that some of the people who post on a more regular basis should become the new Mods. I do not think anybody should give up their god in this case, unless one of them decided to take on more official GM role. Even then, perhaps they could still play their god, but maybe gain AP a bit more slowly, so as not to gain too much of an advantage on the normal PCs.

I wonder if the other LoC games have had similar issues, and what they've done to deal with them.

I don't wanna tell players they can't play. This is part of our collective dysfunction, but we don't want to tell players they can't make posts. I will enact a plan to slow down this oread thing in a way that helps us build a world we understand, and allows him the chance to get what he is looking for. I'll propose it to him and pending his feedback, try to post it tonight.

That I know of, there are no mechanisms for getting points back for undoing something you've done. In fact, when Yidhra created the first undead, Azdan proposed she give them to him totally, rather than unspend the points. Also, I have warned that if we officially identify a limit of one pantheon, the members of that pantheon will get their points back for investing, but have to return the points they gained. That stands as the game's only do-over, but that's due to an unclear rule.

And we need to make a choice on that. One pantheon at a time? Or multiple pantheons for multiple aspects, but only points for one pantheon? Let's have the two mods vote and then if there's disagreement I'll vote. If the palyers approve the winner, we'll move on that front right away.

Am I the only one missing almost 2 pages in game play?
The last post of mine that I see is the one where Asildon uses the albatross to speak above the ocean's surface in Nes's city.

Edit: Nevermind I have no idea what exactly happened but they are back now! :D
Maybe I was a little over exuberant with the previous page button?

To weigh in on the pantheon issue, I think only one is good, due to the scaling AP it grants with size, otherwise we could say benifits from one only, but still that gets messy in combat. My vote is 1 only or at least only 1 per divine rank of the God.

Also I'd like to say that I'm glad to see meaningful adult problem solving and conflict resolution here without anyone getting butthurt or rage quitting. Way to go all!

As for concepts, they are just that world encompassing that different races and groups can use based on their level, for example I believe that Angles and leviathans could as legendary life can use up to legendary concepts regardless of who created the concept. Angel wizards = winning.

I've seen that steps are being taken to remedy the invasion of my people so that's good, though I could have delt with it in combat if needed. I do have paladins with leader in possesion of an angel summoning sword.

As for concepts, they are just that world encompassing that different races and groups can use based on their level, for example I believe that Angles and leviathans could as legendary life can use up to legendary concepts regardless of who created the concept. Angel wizards = winning.

The rules says quite clearly the contrary.

Create Concept: You may grant any race or organization you control any concept you create or Alchemize. If you want to give your creations a concept that was created by another deity, or use another concept to Alchemize with your own, you must engage that deity in combat.

Actually I think that's fine. It would be weird and unfair if a god of light makes a new legendary concept based on holy powers and right away his opponent uses that very concept to beat the crap out of him with his Holy power wielding Great demons.

I've seen that steps are being taken to remedy the invasion of my people so that's good, though I could have delt with it in combat if needed. I do have paladins with leader in possesion of an angel summoning sword.

On that front .. I think combat mechanics need a serious revision.

Alright, here's what's up with AP and the Narzions.

1. I am regaining 4 AP, due to me not reading the rules on creating planets. It costs 5 , not 9 AP.

2. Do the mods like the idea of the technology levels I put out?

3. If somebody, like Lagdorn did, decided to destroy his creations and regain divine essence, how much would be left in the aforementioned creations? (i.e., how much AP would he regain)

Regarding the Narzions: Right now, they are nothing more than a loose coalition of nomadic tribes lead by Balance Shamans who often fight their counterparts. After some time, they will divide. And they will reach the World. Those who follow the light will prove a great ally in the war to come. Those who follow the dark will be great adversaries.

Gods, I hope you are ready.

Poor Yidhra... she made the sun but no one gives her credit for it.

Azdan, Aeon doesn't need to create the sun. Yidhra beat him to it. Don't worry, Yidhra, Melehan will acknowledge the existence of the sun. He's gonna propose a solution to the undead conflict.

Aw...I missed that post. Sorry, Yidhra!

Lagdan, you'd gain no AP back for trying to undo a previous action, unless we can agre on a reason. Good reasons would be: the action was illegal but didn't cause any problems, or some poor communication in the game caused you to take an action that made no sense.

In this case, the points you get back for creating Mirrodin are correct, since you incorrectly figured the cost of the action. But there's no return for destroying a creation you made. THey're mortal lives, not batteries. : )

However, instead of destroying them, I am fine if you retreat them to Mirrodin on the time wave and get them ready to whoop some butt in the future.

The technology levels are part of the idea behind using ordered time to move the game along at controlled intervals. I'm not saying we have a metasystem for that, but you've seen Azdan's last posts and the message I sent you about working all this out. The tech levels play a big part in resolving that.

No worries. XD Having people be unable to see an obvious solution that is literally shining down on them and instead put lots of effort into something totally unnecessary is the sort of thing that makes Yidhra laugh.

Undead conflict is resolved! Leave 'em alone! : )

Mmmkay.

I like my Narzions, though. Perhaps it's kind of Planet of the Apes-ish and the Oreads come back and time has regressed, Mirrodin is wild again and all of their tech has vanished. Rebuilding will take a hundred years or more.

That will introduce 3 distinct factions on Mirrodin: Oreads, Light Narzions, and Dark Narzions, all warring, making temporary alliances, and then backstabbing each other.

The prescience of Oreads on Mirrodin would accelerate technological advancement-I'd say halving AP costs for advancing.

Thoughts?

Undead conflict is resolved! Leave 'em alone! : )

Aw, I thought Yidhra would like the inherent contradiction that she created undead and then created the power that can fry them. ;)

There are no mechanisms for discounting or reimbursing AP costs. If that changes, we'll all approve that system together.

Okay catching up-

I’m with Jezebelle and Steve on Lagdorn’s actions on all points and could not have said it better. I agree that Lagdorn needs to either create three separate magical concepts or just call it all ‘Balance’ magic and let it work thematically different for different alignments. I do not think anyone should regain anything for destroying something you created. It is not like they are recyclable, but I am with Steve on you being able to retcon their out and out utter destruction.

I think a Cosmic Decree by Lagdorn to enforce societal levels of advancement isn’t a bad concept, but it would need to be discussed further.

I vote for each deity getting to belong to a single pantheon. They can leave at any time and respend points if they wish to join another.

Alright, here's my AP actions for last week for Narzions:
Sentient Race
Balance Shamans

Here's my domain gain:
Balance: 4/7

Just to clear that up.

Stil being the rule police :P
Yidhra you are "wrong" about the points you allocate to your domains. And in a way that puts you at a disadvantage.
You are allowed to use the points of your actions to progress any domain that you feel is justified and you don't need to split them up.

If you justify your gain ability action to progress strength and sun then both domains are advanced by 5 points. If in the future you come up with another domain and feel like that action would contribute, you can add 5 points to that too...

that being said .. you have pretty wild interpretations of what enters in a domain ...
I'm not opposed to that but I wouldn't be surprised if someone is.

If anybody has doubts on how domain points works, take a look at Jezebelle or Azdan profile. there you can see all the actions and their gain towards different domains and the total points gained for each of them.

I think that actions can/should only count towards one domain, otherwise with a well-placed argument you could quickly end qualifying for every domain, much faster than I believe the intent to be.

Yeah… I am not a huge fan of the justifications, but at the same time, I am really going to not try to get bent out of shape about interpretations of vague rules unless we establish something better. She could always just change what the domain is to fit. It is not like we have to stick to Pathfinder domains, and domains don’t actually do anything (other than act as a stepping stone for leveling). She could just call one of her domains Holy Strength and the other Holy Light, and it’d be fine, so ultimately doesn’t matter.

As Jezebelle says, you can just apply any spends towards any domain per the rules. I think that’s fine as far as progression since there are other balancing factors (actually purchasing the domain, actually purchasing the advancement, and minimum time to ascend). Plus, if you get into a back and forth that requires you to spend a pile of points, then you don’t have a pile of points to spend on your advancement.

To go into detail: Each Domain costs 3 AP, and ascension costs 5 AP in addition to that. So, if you plan perfectly and spend only 7 AP that allows you to qualify for two domains, then you still are at minimum spending 18 AP towards ascension. In 6 weeks, nobody is making more than 24-36 AP total, so that is a fairly major commitment of resources.

Jezebelle, what domains would you say my latest actions, making and educating the Sidhe and reincarnating the oreads, go towards, in your professional opinion?

Putting in my two cents, I would say Eternity, if you don't have that already.

I do not. Is Eternity a recognized domain? I don't think there's rules for it like Good and Destruction.

I do not. Is Eternity a recognized domain? I don't think there's rules for it like Good and Destruction.

There is no such thing as a "recognized domain".

Since you seem to have difficulties with coming up with domain gains for your actions and keep track of your Ap, you should make a profile and enter a complete list of your actions like me and Azdan and keep it updated. once you have all your actions in a single list it would be pretty easy to detect common themes to make a domain out of it and to keep track of your AP.
I can do it for you if you need help with that.

I'd appreciate the help.

I thought we could only use domains that were written in D&D.

Here is the list of your actions

I immediately noticed a problem ... you were supposed to join the pantheon of oenar and azdan but never really took the action.
I guess you were supposed to do it on april 13 when you said you would join but didn't had the time to post something.
That would become...

If this is right you should have 5 Ap right now.
But I would ask the others on your pantheon for when they stared to act as it was active.

Alias all created, if definitely approved I'll throw my first post up.

Sorry everyone, between tests and being pretty sick I'll probably be a bit poofy the next few days.

Would anyone mind if I claimed the domains Monster and protection now and write a post in game play sometime tomorrow evening?
Also I will probably posting actions from my lovely Demigod Asildon tomorrow as well.

Sorry guys. :(

I'm not saying anyone has to do this, but if we are going to help one another with ideas for advancing toward domains, I think every player that hasn't already ought to list in their profile every action they've taken and what domains they think they are useful for. I have exactly a system like that. If you develop a better one, awesome. But let's at least have that. Actions aren't in a vacuum (not even in space :) ), so as one god takes shapes the world, it's reasonable that other can see their progress in a certain demesne anyway.

I would say maybe Nes ought to do this same thing, but then put it into a spoiler and remind people that his actions are unknowable when he wants them to be. Maybe demark which ones are, in fact, unknowable.

Monkeygod, you're in! Get to work!

Ya know, thinking about it, if Melehan just keeps the Sidhe named that and names their society that as well, I think that pretty much clears any problems I could have.

He plans to take them in a different direction than typical elves, but he's named their society Elven. If he and the rest of you wouldn't mind him re-naming(a cosmetic change only) it to Sidhe society, I would be free to make a more classic elven one.

Ya know, thinking about it, if Melehan just keeps the Sidhe named that and names their society that as well, I think that pretty much clears any problems I could have.

He plans to take them in a different direction than typical elves, but he's named their society Elven. If he and the rest of you wouldn't mind him re-naming(a cosmetic change only) it to Sidhe society, I would be free to make a more classic elven one.

I suppose that could work. I was originally going to just say that their proper name is Sidhe, and elf was a cultural corruption as their capital city was El (borrowed that from Pathfinder, I confess). How exactly would they differ, though? To be clear, I was going more for a Tolkienian-style elf, at least as far as biology went: Immortality apart from dying in battle or from illness, etc, being able to sire half-breeds with humans but said half-breeds are forced to choose between their human and elf side, that kind of thing. Their cultural trappings, however, would be different than Tolkien's creations, developing a culture similar to Egypt with their reverence for the dead and penchant for monument building. And part of the reason their immortality wouldn't make them take over the world is that their immortality doesn't make them inherently better warriors.

The idea was that their inherent immortality made them more respectful to death, and they would sort of act as an example to other mortals that death isn't something to be afraid of, yada yada yada.

I apologize if this is over the line. I wasn't aware that we'd be getting an elf god.

I'm thinking of making my elves more the classic woodland dwellers, long lived, but certainly not immortal, protecting nature, mastering swordplay and magicks etc.

They would build with the forests, not against it, shaping the trees and the land into homes, buildings and cities.

So more like wood elves, than anything else, though they would use arcane magick which I believe most wood elves abhor.

Yir,

Those domains sound fine. =)

Steve,

I agree and have added my stuff to my profile. I've also put up my current Domain plans and progress.

Sorry everyone, between tests and being pretty sick I'll probably be a bit poofy the next few days.

Would anyone mind if I claimed the domains Monster and protection now and write a post in game play sometime tomorrow evening?
Also I will probably posting actions from my lovely Demigod Asildon tomorrow as well.

Sorry guys. :(

well... you can always claim them later. there is no mechanical advantage right now that you need to seize ASAP. you need 6 weeks of gameplay to advance to lesser goddess, so there is no need to rush.

Also ... get well soon :)

Ya, I don't see anyone jumping on either of those domains at the moment Yir, so you should be fine in that regard. Also, feel free to menace my king (who I should have a post up for sometime this week, work depending).

Would one of the Mods make a post in Recruitment sayin it's temporarily closed?

Also, the current discussion over there should really be taking place over here. The continued posting bumps the thread, which makes it seem like its still active.

well .. recruitment is technically never closed... we always take applications.

btw ... i checked and technically speaking, Nihil and Nico bolas should disappear from existence ... and Oenar is either vanished too or really close to vanish depending on how you interpret the rules.
I wont use it against anyone but .... can we have a sign that you guys are alive?

Thank you everyone, I appreciate all of the well wishes. :)

I will get on gently terrorizing your king, Vlog. Just, you know throwing a storm at him or so should be fun. PLUS I have a nice island for him to be washed up on.

I will probably claim Monsters this week and just hold off on claiming protection for a bit until a feel better and have more AP to play around with.

I started to write a sort of origin story for Jezebelle... that would kinda affect the origin story of the whole game so I want to have your impressions and know if you are ok with that.

Pretty much any backstory is fine by me, though I might see about working my character's thoughts into it at some point... XD Yidhra was sort of made from the collective unconscious thoughts of the entire universe as it ended, after all.

Erande, of course, is a brand new godling, having become one after the end of the last universe.

Man, I can't wait til Tuesday. Then I get to ascend!