Lords of Creation

Game Master stringburka

Just read your posts, Melehan. You know what you've spent points on. Those points count towards domains that interest you and have some affinity with your actions. If I create a place called the Shadow Palace to be my negative energy analog, those points count for shadow, darkness, evil, undeath. Anything that interests Melehan and you think applies. And if another player doesn't buy your explanation, then it gets hashed out here until it looks good or doesn't.

Thought I would offer an assist.

Melehan's AP expenditure:

** spoiler omitted **

Thank you, guys.

I'd say the first three actions would contribute to death, while the latter three contribute to Melehan's focus on law and arbitration, and his latest action...I don't know, contributes to both?

Sorry for sucking at this :(

That sounds reasonable to me!

It seems as though as long as you aren't going wild and crazy with what you are claiming stuff for you're good. Also, points from a single things creation can be applied to more than one category.

Ex. When I create Sky Whales after tomorrow's roll over I will put 3 points into Monster and 3 points into Sky.

Okay, so I've spent all my AP on domains I already have, yes? I need to start doing OTHER things in order to get points towards a new domain?

Only if you decide to.

I haven't been keeping track of AP spent on those due to the fact that I already have them.

It would probably be better to spend AP on other things, yes - things you'd like to get domains for. ^^

Crud, has it changed since the start of the game? I thought I saw Monday in the second post on the recruitment thread. :<
Either way would it be alright for me to just leave this up and just not post anything else until the actual turn over? I guess I could always delete and repost it tomorrow...

Edit: As of the rules posted in the discussion thread it is 5:00 pm eastern standard time (US) so I'm 5 1/2 hours early >.<

That happens when people are playing from all around the world. XD Considering it was an honest mistake, I think it's fine.

Okay. If a mod asks me to take it down I will.

I'll just try and keep better track of the turn over time. XD

From the OP recruitment via Ilja-

New weeks will start at monday mornings 05:00 GMT -5

Thank you for the happy birthday wishes! =)

I am trying to figure out cosmic decrees. Since my first concept for one is definitely controversial, I am throwing it up here for discussion, revision, and to help me get a handle on the rules.

Cosmic Decree (5 AP): The universe has rational natural laws that can be learned and studied.
Every Concept created must have a definition and rules decided upon by the god upon its creation. These rules may be as specific or vague as the god wishes. These Concepts may then be built upon or Alchemized by any god, but the more specific or Alchemized Concepts must incorporate all rules from the original Concepts. Any god may grant their creations any Concept, but the creation must then obey the rules as defined in the Concept.

Explanation

Per the current system (if I understand it correctly), you can grant anything you control any Concept you create, but if you want to give your creations a Concept that was created by another deity, you must engage that deity in combat (or I assume, just have their permission).

My proposal for a shift caused by Cosmic Decree would be that any Concept would be available for use by any god with their creations. This would represent that the Concepts are written into the fabric of the universe for anyone to see and take advantage of.

I think it should also be possible for gods to spend additional AP (2-3?) when creating such Concepts to make it able to defy this Cosmic Decree, and remain only available to their chosen people. This would represent race-specific powers (like efreeti wish-magic), power that is specifically crafted to operate outside of the rules (like the Shadow-Weave in Forgotten Realms), the information is just way to inscrutable for almost anyone to really understand (quantum physics), the god actively preventing the spread of the information, or some other reason.

Examples

Nes creates the Legendary Concept: Arcane Magic (5 AP). He defines Arcane Magic as being any ritual magic that alter the nature of reality by through planar energies. Azdan then decides that he’d like to create Magical Concept: Necromancy (3 AP) as a type of Arcane Magic. He defines necromancy as arcane magic that deals with undead by drawing upon the negative energy plane. If a negative energy plane doesn’t exist, then he can’t define necromancy this way, since it has to fit within the purview of Arcane Magic.

At that point, necromancy is just something anyone can learn by studying the negative energy plane and undead. In order to prevent anyone from learning necromancy, Azdan could spend an additional 3 AP to jealously guard the trade secrets, or actively prevent the negative energy plane from being accessed. If anyone wants to steal the secrets of necromancy, they'd have to combat Azdan for the right as normal.

Am I thinking along the right lines, and what are people’s opinions?

@Nes: I honestly don't mind either way. As I have no concepts to Yir's name I would only benefit from your decree.

My opinion is that I look forward to the Death Gods' reaction to increased availability of Necromancy. ^^

Thanks for working with Lagdorn on this, Nes.

After creating a whole new planet, inhabitants for it, and the concept of steam power and science, he is somewhat AP starved.

Next, I will create... SPAAAACE TRAVEL! TO THE EDGE OF THE COSMOS!

Hmhmhmhm~ ^^ Space is a very big place, though.

It's Week 6! Roll-over happens and AP for everybody.

I just post that to remind people, even if I do it very late.

Also, next week, those who started with us can now level up to the next God Tier if they have gained two additional domains. Or this week. I think 'after 6 weeks' would mean Week 7, personally.

Yir, time is flexible and that was an honest mistake. 'Tis fine.

Re: Recruitment Thread, I'll allow Saminjutsu and Monkeygod to apply, but one of us should post there that we're officially closing it for now.

May I also recommend that, to avoid too many things happening at once, they begin play next week? It would allow some time to talk things out in the Discussion thread, especially as they haven't finalized their applications as of yet.

That sounds vaguely right. XD Next week it is!

It's Week 6! Roll-over happens and AP for everybody.

I just post that to remind people, even if I do it very late.

Also, next week, those who started with us can now level up to the next God Tier if they have gained two additional domains. Or this week. I think 'after 6 weeks' would mean Week 7, personally.

uh... Actually, I think we are on week 7

Game started the week of march 18
so the start of the following weeks are:
2° week march 24
3° march 31
4° april 7
5° april 14
6° april 21

that should make april 28 the start of the 7° week.
I'll edit my post otherwise since I was sure to be on week 7 and acted as if I could increase my level.

Nihil, The Empty wrote:

It's Week 6! Roll-over happens and AP for everybody.

I just post that to remind people, even if I do it very late.

Also, next week, those who started with us can now level up to the next God Tier if they have gained two additional domains. Or this week. I think 'after 6 weeks' would mean Week 7, personally.

uh... Actually, I think we are on week 7

Game started the week of march 18
so the start of the following weeks are:
2° week march 24
3° march 31
4° april 7
5° april 14
6° april 21

that should make april 28 the start of the 7° week.
I'll edit my post otherwise since I was sure to be on week 7 and acted as if I could increase my level.

Oh dear. You're right, I made a mistake. Apologies. I have been apparently counting the second week as 'first' since that was when the first roll-over happened.

...Week 7 it is!

No apology needed.
I alsomade an error and cannot longer edit but.
promoting to a new level costs 5 ap,not 6. it requires 6 week but costs 5.

Yir and Yidhra,

Good to hear you don’t see any issues. =) I think the biggest problem is that the system presumes that gods pay AP for concepts before they give them to creations or they must battle (or bargain?) another god for the right to not to have to spend AP. This would free that up and save AP, but with the added downside of having to play by whatever rules the god creating the concept dictates. This makes many root concepts- war, magic, etc. a bit of a race to see who gets to lay claim and set the standard. I hope that will be a driving force for interaction and drama.

Lagdorn,

My pleasure! Nes likes how Lagdorn rolls, but I figured that’s how things would pan out from your application. =)

I do not see issues to that Decree... however...
I don't think making a concept bars it from the other gods, quite the opposite.
Rules states concepts can be gained in battle, but also that they may be given away.
That opens for the chance to engage in trading between gods.
Again, I'm totally ok with your decree, but I wouldn't mind to barter a little bit with the other gods for concepts.
For example... Jezebelle has architecture.. pretty major concept for a god of civilization. You may have something to trade that she wants, or she may have a request for you, and she will share her concept with you.
I think it makes for a pretty interesting gameplay (also, whenever someone refuses to trade for something crucial it opens the chance for war which I think is one of the few reasons why we might engage in combat. seriously, we will want to get some blood on our hands sooner or later don't we?)

I think Rowe's ideas are sort of how I interpreted the system to work already. A cosmic decree (everything dies) can be modified by a subset related to that decree (some creatures come back as undead), and if you want to assume a greater level control over a decree, you have to gain permission or do combat with the deity in question.

As far as increased availability of necromancy, I don't think Azdan controls necromancy. Mortals would learn necromancy, and serve the causes of death or undeath. Azdan receives some veneration either way.

It looks like I didn't screw up regarding the apotheosis, then. If this is the first week we can achieve lesser deity status. That leaves me with 7 points to create a new race of mortal creatures.

Where are we on the pantheon discussion? We need to know what to do about that because the northern pantheon might require a do-over if being locked in at 3 gods doesn't appeal to them.

Jezebelle,

Hah! Well, me and my 1d6 attack certainly isn’t too keen on getting into combat! =)

I believe that you are correct with the current rules, although I think it is unclear on how Concepts may be gained without fighting. I am just assuming that they can be traded or bartered, since otherwise it’d be a bit silly. That opportunity will still exist, but it will only be with the Concepts that your god truly covets (by spending additional AP, I am starting to think 2 AP sounds better than 3 AP).

I suppose at the root of it I just find it odd that Concepts can’t already be shared like this automatically. It seems weird that one god can give his creations the Concept of Cooking, but everyone else in the cosmos is really confused about this whole putting a piece of meat under a fire thing without that god’s permission or a fight. Maybe it fits in a Prometheus giving fire to humanity sense, but if that is the intention, then Nes definitely wants to turn things around like the Titan of legend.

There would still be interaction as above for the important Concepts. More so, I expect, since this change would increase their inherent value, raising the stakes. There would also be additional interaction as allied gods plan to take control of important Concepts so that they can set the rules for their use in their benefit or against rival’s interests.

Maybe I could make it so that the rules of Concepts can be changed by the god that controls them? That gives some greater incentive for trade/fighting.

Steve,

I think you are confusing Cosmic Decrees and Concepts. Cosmic Decrees shape the nature of the universe while Concepts are ideas that can empower creatures or groups (like the former is the canvas and the latter the paint). So, for example, with the Cosmic Decree: Everything Dies, the only way to get around it is to spend 3 AP to make some creature a god creates an exception to the rule or to spend a Cosmic Decree to counter yours. Creating undead is not a Concept, but a creature that is an exception to the rule you stated. This would also apply to immortal creatures (like outsiders or whatever).

To compare it to my cosmic decree, creating undead in that case would be analogous to making a Concept that is not open for anyone to apply to their creations. I am all for allowing such exceptions to the decree since they are an important balancing factor to Cosmic Decrees in general.

My decree would affect Concepts, which are the ideas or forces created by gods within the universe, and used by their creations. So like necromancy is an idea whereas undead are one exception to Cosmic Decree: Everything Dies.

Okay, here is my final draft. I will leave it here for a few more days before committing to the action in the gameplay thread in case anyone else has comments.

Cosmic Decree (5 AP): The universe has rational natural laws that can be learned and studied.

Every Concept must have a definition and rules, which are decided by the god during its creation. These descriptions may be as specific or vague as the god wishes. These Concepts may then be built upon or Alchemized by any god, but the more specific or Alchemized Concepts must incorporate all rules from the original Concepts. Any god may grant their creations any Concept, but the creation must then obey all rules of the Concept.

A god may use a Scourge/Boon action (3 AP) when creating a Concept to restrict the Concept to use by their creations only (unless they give permission or are defeated in combat as normal). The rules of a Concept can be changed by their creator or by another god who defeats the creator in combat, for 2 AP.

Well, it doesn't say they have to be rational from the perspective of mortals... I think I can abuse the loopholes in that decree enough to avoid having my character be too bothered by it. XD She is, after all, the Goddess of Paradoxes.

Well, it doesn't say they have to be rational from the perspective of mortals... I think I can abuse the loopholes in that decree enough to avoid having my character be too bothered by it. XD She is, after all, the Goddess of Paradoxes.

That is extremely correct, and Nes is a giant fan of exploiting loopholes (so thumbs up). =)

The rules of Concepts don't even have to fit within the bounds of common sense. Take Quantum Physics as a real life example of a system with rules that sounds like the stuff of madness.

I think I understand the rules we're talking about. I did conflate some terminology. mostly because the rules are so light I've just focused on writing prose and doing Azdan things.

I'm with your decree. I assume that extant decrees conform to this rational law concept as well, right? So the invention of undeath, the natural law that everything dies, the practical applications of space travel...those things also become rational and understandable. Right?

A couple of things...

1) I'm waiting for Aeon to come talk with Jezebelle... he hinted at wanting to do that...

2) I plan to both issue a cosmic decree and create a plane in the near future. So I warn you about it in order to discuss it's feasibility

The plane I want to create is the plane of dreams.
The cosmic decree is that the consciousness of every sleeping entity enters the plane of dreams and is subject to it's rules.

That will also open the road for a series of creatures, magical and legendary concepts involving dreams and the dreamworld.

It is of course quite a power grab by Jezebelle as basically all mortals will be bound to live a substantial part of their life in the clutches of a dimension dominated by Jezebelle
Which to me seems quite interesting, people like the paladins with high moral standard will have to deal with dreams of a pretty sinful nature, which may or may not lead to doubts in their faith. Also, it would not like being a seer or anything like that, but I think Jezebelle would have a first row seat when it comes to see the mortal psyche as a whole.

Of course... Scourge/Boons defying that decree could lead to dreamless sleep, projecting the consciousness somewhere else, or just being immune from any influence from Jezebelle.

There are so many implication that I could think of...
One is that the dreamworld, being One plane, would kinda work like a collective consciousness.
The norm will be of course that everyone will find themselves in teh dreamworld, isolated, and living in environments and dealing with people that are purely a projection of their own minds, but they will be still all in the same plane. They could very well influence each other, especially through Dream based magical concepts (I just became a Source of Arcane, so you know I'm going to make those things).
Also, I plan on making all kind of creatures that are native of the dream world... both benign and malign creatures. And that opens to another possibility... being Struck in the dreamworld, being attacked in it and even being killed in it.
Basically .. there will be Bakus, Succubi, mares and Freddy Kruger :P

I don't think anything in the rules
specify a particular tie between a plane and the god that creates it, except he gets to decide it's features,
As a constanty shifting plane highly relying on emotions I can see Jezebelle having quite an unfair advantage in dealing with the plane, but nothing should stop other gods to "invade" and work within the dreamworld. I say invade because unless invited or at least requesting a permission to enter, that's how Jezebelle is going to see it.
I wont exclude the creation of a sanctum and a monument... something like a Dreamforge that would really give her an almost all-powerful control upon it.

On a separate note... something that is more flavor than actual effect on the game but I find kinda cool.
If that's ok with everyone I would like to give the dreamworld another implication.
The fact that every reflective surface is indeed a window over the dreamworld.
Again .. the possibilities here would be infinite. From dream divination trough mirrors to dream creatures that stalks you in your reflections but does not exist in the real world.

Thoughts?

*Raises hand* Yidhra has at least some dominion over nightmares. Of course, it's totally legit for multiple Gods to have the same things (for example, I'd expect pretty much all the gods of good to have the "good" domain), so you're free to also grab that if you want to. XD Just... note that Yidhra will really like any creepy dream monsters, and possibly want control over them? Just because she thinks they're cute.

Wow,

That's incredibly powerful and SO outside the norm of how every fantasy setting I've ever encountered handles a dream plane.

Mortals usually rarely, if ever, actually touch the real plane of dreams whilst asleep or they just brush against its edges. If the former, the plane of dreams is set apart from the normal dreams we all have, but can be accessed via them if you're talented or possess the right magick or skills.

If the later, the plane and normal dreams are one and the same, but mortals just barely touch it, and never enough to truly be drawn in, unless some force or being does so. Or they have the ability to enter it themselves.

Basically, this decree is "Give Jezebelle access to all mortal minds, unless protected, so that she may control or mess with them as she desires."

Any thoughts on my recent acts? I'd like opinions.

Steve,

In a broad sense, yes, although obviously no rush on retroactively updating and I would assume there should be no cost. The rules can be vague, unknown, or mysterious. Additionally I assume everyone has the option of retroactively restricting a Concept they created previously by spending 3 AP.

Specifically, I do not believe that undeath (as I understand it) should have been a Concept, but a Boon/Scourge action taken when creating a race that allowed it to violate your Cosmic Decree for 3 AP (each immortal race would need to spend it as well). It was created as a Concept, but that shouldn’t be sufficient for everyone to now flaunt your Cosmic Decree. If you are okay with that though, then it would be a Concept that needs rules set by Yidhra (she does a good job already of outlining it) and available to all gods.

The Cosmic Decree: Everything Dies, requires no revision since it is not a Concept. I’ll go through and make a list of all the Concepts so far created, and therefore affected:

Jezebelle,

Sounds great! Woo corruption! I would recommend that you include the idea that all mortals or all creatures must sleep and dream. Otherwise, an easy loophole is creatures that don’t sleep not having to get involved. Then the Scourge/Boon has to be that the creature doesn’t require sleep/dreams.

It is certainly quite the power grab, but that should be encouraged. I think this is a really cool novel idea and give it two thumbs up. It’s very Sandman-esque. I also like the idea of the mirrors being tied to the dreaming.

Melehan,

I have a few thoughts. First, I want to point out that Nes encouraged the creation of new mortal races that didn’t exist in the old world – “Just remember, victory goes to the most novel, the most intriguing, and those with the greatest potential. I spent eons playing with humans, elves, dwarves, and so on. I don’t want to say that I am bored with them, per se, but a new universe is about new beginnings. I feel like broadening my horizons.” So, while I think OOC that elves are a perfectly good fantasy-world staple, you are going to need some more spice to make them competitive in his proposed contest. Like Lagdorn took the oreads and turned them into steampunk communists in SPAAAACE. =)

Second, the new player hoping to join (Monkeygod) was proposing to make a Father of Elves, so maybe coordinate or discuss the move with him over in the recruitment thread?

Jezebelle,

Sounds great! Woo corruption! I would recommend that you include the idea that all mortals or all creatures must sleep and dream. Otherwise, an easy loophole is creatures that don’t sleep not having to get involved. Then the Scourge/Boon has to be that the creature doesn’t require sleep/dreams.

It is certainly quite the power grab, but that should be encouraged. I think this is a really cool novel idea and give it two thumbs up. It’s very Sandman-esque. I also like the idea of the mirrors being tied to the dreaming.

Well.. making all the creatures forcefully dream seems a little overkill (and at the very least a second separate divine decree)

I'm cool with gods taking steps to AVOID their creatures to enter the dreamworld.
I hope they will do it as something that makes sense, thinking about something clever like a population of shark-people, or some other reason that justifies the fact that they do not need sleep.

Also .. As a Player I'm ok with having Yidhra playing her nightmare portfolio and come influencing the dreamworld... Jezebelle... she would not be so happy.
Her first impression of Yidhra wasn't exceptionally good.
You could either come to Jezebelle when she forges the plane and try to befriend her, or you could act on your portfolio in open opposition to her. I guess as another goddess of chaos and nightmares you will have a higher affinity wityh the plane than the rest of the gods.

Also lagdorn, where did you land? When your guys met the people were they my The People? or just random primitives somewhere out on the edges of either continent?

It was a capital P, so, yes, they landed in an outlying town of the People's.

I have big concerns about the scifi development with Lagdan. Our game system has huge flaws in that it's very easy to reinterpret or reinvent the world, and the only structure to the game is the very loosely defined system for god to go after each other with point expenditures. TO that end, do we want a game where a week in our undefined fantasy world has raiders from another planet? Our next player could be dropping cthulhu within his first 15 points.

I'm curious to know what everyone thinks about our system, and whether we need to pin down a few basic assumptions in our timeless/nameless universe.

And I have not seen that we still pinned down the pantheon thing. The reason that's important is that the only pantheon we have will owe points back if it un-exists (keeping the positive balance of points is unfair to initial players who operated on different assumptions). So let's a get a consensus on how interplanetary raid should work, how time works, etc.

One of the reasons I invited Rowe to join this game is because he has a great grasp for systems. Let's discuss basic assumptions, time, pantheons, and interplanetary invasions for a second before the world goes steampunk in one week.

I think a lot of it depends on how much of an impact things are expected to have. Literally the number one rule in the game is:

"You can't do something huge to someone else's god without consent, or at least discussion. Examples would be killing another god, wiping out an entire civilization randomly, or otherwise tearing down the star of their work."

If, after others have spent time building up the world, one deity would want to come in and completely change everything without permission... I think there would be justifiable grounds for objecting. On the other hand, if it was limited to something like the occasional contact, or some attacks that get repulsed, then that's probably more workable. ^^

As a side note, I'm not planning on having interplanetary raids be easy forever. XD Just need a few more points, and space travel will get MUCH more... interesting.

My main concern on the play of Lagdan is not much on the final results but in how he gets there and how fast it does it.
I would say that the world that we created as nearly a dozen gods is barely on par with stone age.
Jezebelle created architecture, Erande created shipbuilding and are probably the only two example of meaningful technologies existing, and yet the creation of the societies that are in game today are the product of a huge investment.
Considering that simply creating sentient life is not supposed to create creatures more sophisticated than cavemen, I feel is an enormoust stretch to take human cavemen, give them steam technology and space travel and pretend them to use them with no technological advancement in between.
Right out of the bat I could name a couple dozens of prerequisites for what he's willing to do.
such as metallurgy, mechanics, Military organization, combustion, engineering...
I am a great fan of the mage series by white wolves, A huge fan of The order of reason and their evolution, the technocratic order. And I am not opposed in the slightest about the idea of having some of that in the game. But using a logical progression and common sense.
It cannot happen so fast.. and it cannot happen so cheaply. Not for the sake of game balance or being unfair or anything. Is not about the number of point you invest.
Is about the number of step you make.
Is about storytelling an evolution step by step, an evolution that can and will be scrutinized by all the forces in the game.
Aeon created "the people" and before he started to shape it in the law and good society that is trying to shape Jezebelle came to earth, snached a few of them that follower her and created an offset known as the Jezites.
Jezebelle created vampires, to this day there are 7 vampires, they have the means to spread but they did not and I gave everyone the chance to "react" to their creation before developing on them.
Erande created a new land a magical sword and a hero that was supposed to grab it and become king ... but got cockblocked by Nico Bolas' Dragons.

Don't get me wrong .. You get to have the invaders from the outer space... just not now... not right out of the bat.
I have no doubt that a technologically focused god can make his people advance in a great speed investing all or at least most of his points every week on technological advancements.
But you still get to start with cavemens and need to build them up step by step through all the smaller goals that added to each other will one day sum up to a credible spacefaring civilization.
And have no doubt about it ... before it is done it will receive lots and lots of influences from other gods who may help you advance faster, hinder you, or divert your drive to an entire new direction.

Alright. So the central problem seems to be poor assumptions built into the world, and the light rules that allow huge changes in story with little power expended. It's not that Lagdan has done anything wrong, but more that suddenly we have one god of one world, which in a week is invading the other world. That will sour players on the game pretty fast.

So, I'm interested in the opinions of those who haven't spoken up yet. Do you feel we don't need anything changed or adjudicated here? Did the game suddenly become not the game you signed on for?

Maybe nothing needs to change. But let's get consensus and see if worlds go to war so soon.

don't forget cocoa. I definitely created that.

on a more serious note, now that we have a couple of additional gods that have some overlap I think I will refocus what I have spent some of my points on, domain wise, as I was working on artifice and nobility, and we now have gods who have those as their primary focus.

Keep in mind that I have already created storytelling magic (the song), but it's limited at the moment to specific individuals (which I will be making an organization for today), but it's not restricted to members of a specific race (although Lagdon's races probably don't have access to it yet, given how he's been describing his people).

I am very firmly on the side of Lagdorn in the sense that his actions violate no rules or official precedent and are (in my opinion) very beneficial for this game.

TL;DR Lagdorn’s take on the game isn’t less viable, just different from how it has been played. Everyone could have been playing like him as well, but chose not to. If the existing gods do not like the changes he is making, then they should act against him In Character. This includes making Cosmic Decrees to ensure that such things don’t happen in the future.

Steve,

Lagdorn has at present done very little action-wise that is outside of the scope of worlds like Golarion, which possess space travel and even entire adventures devoted to space ships. His actions are even encouraged by the rules, “Steam Punk no matter how advanced would always be advanced not magical - so have fun with your dirigibles (Same goes for each other punk variant, such as clockpunk, biopunk, cowpunk. EXCEPT for cyber punk - that will be a legendary concept).” So even cyberpunk would be acceptable, for only 5 AP.

So he didn’t do anything odd. However, even if he had done something a lot more out of the box than he had, I would actively encourage and support it.

The point of the game system as written is to create a very loose set of rules in order to encourage creativity and roleplay. Gods can create anything they wish, from cyberpunk dystopias to generic fantasy dragons. It is set up to encourage settings more like GURPs than Greyhawk. Any restrictions would have to be imposed and made very clear to incoming players. My opinion is that such a restriction would be a really unfortunate move.

I believe that Yidhra has the right reaction. Lagdorn didn’t show up and say ‘all your people are now enslaved’. He had his creations land and begin attempting interaction with opportunities for anything from peaceful contact to all-out war. Yidhra now plans on adding In Character complications for Lagdorn’s people.

Jezebelle,

I feel it is a good thing that you and Erande felt the desire to create Mundane Concepts like architecture and shipbuilding, but these are not good examples for comparison to Lagdorn’s actions. Mundane Concepts have no mechanical effect, they are simply for flavor. Advanced Concepts like Steam Tech and Space Travel add +1 to the Combat of the creatures employing them. A more fair comparison would be to the Magical Concepts of Blood Magic or Song, which add +2 to Combat, for cheaper than what Lagdorn spent. So while the Oreads can drop rocks from space, the Jezites can sacrifice some guy and blow up their ships.

I think making assumptions that come from the real world or other fantasy settings is incorrect. There is no reason for Lagdorn to show the advancement of metallurgy before he creates steam technology, any more than it is necessary for Jezebelle to create concepts like Sacrifice before she makes Blood Magic. He made a Society with Form Society, and then gave them an Advanced Concept that is even recommended in the rules. There is no reason why a divinely created society needs to reflect the slow exponential technological advancements of the real world. This is on top of the fact that timelines are intended to be very fluid. Perhaps Lagdorn’s Oreads spent thousands of years advancing off camera. It wouldn’t matter IC, since it’d still be a surprise when they show up.

If people want to establish slow exponential growth as being necessary, then a Cosmic Decree to that effect is needed. For example: you must create a Mundane Concept before you can create a related Advanced Concept before you can create a related Magical Concept. If that is made to be the case then you would need to create Metallurgy, before Steampunk.

As far as pantheons: I completely disagree with the idea that gods can belong to more than one pantheon.

1) It defeats the idea of small alliances, which breed conflict- the lifeblood of a game like this. We do not have a GM who is introducing conflict, antagonists, or complications. If we do not encourage conflict ourselves then it won't happen.

2) It strikes me as having potential for abuse. Why doesn’t everyone make a pantheon and everyone join it? This is meant to be an extreme example to make a point.

3) It removes the inherent meaning behind a commitment to join a pantheon if you can just turn around and join another that strikes your fancy.

4) Historical examples are inappropriate for a game that has no bearing on the real world. So it does not matter if a real world god shared traits with another real world god, in two pantheons.

I think someone being in multiple pantheons is fine, as long as they only get one AP per week from them (although they could choose which pantheon to "benefit" from differently each week). joining a pantheon costs AP, so there is an inherent cost attached.

Ok, so two responses: I said before Lagdan didn't do anything wrong. He hasn't violated the rules or spirit of the game. I certainly don't want rules that limit creativity. The issue remains that the world (and rules) are so ill-defined that we're really all floating in Limbo and looking for conflict before wehave legs. There's also nothing wrong with that, but it does screw with the pacing of a game that has no adjudication. More on pacing below. I would like to see in game actions ward off interstellar apocalypse. I would not like to see meta actions, rule changes or anything punitive. There's nothing to discpurage or punish.

I'm ambivalent about panthheons. When I signed on to this game, I thought of it as an opportunity to write and explore game development concepts. I assumed the world was so.rules light we'd all take turns inventing basic assumptions and building a world, and that conflict would come later. But not verything wants the,same thing. I want to write prose and roleplay. Nes wants roleplay and competition. Melehan wants to prevent as much evil as possible. Erande wants epic heroes, Lagdan wants war, and Nihil wants...nothing. Ever.

That has an effect on the pantheon and pacing. Our system allows for interstellar travel, but we STILL HAVE NO SUN. We never pinned down rules for gravity, time, etc. Though Azdan is working on time. I thought multiple pantheons was cool when I thought the game was about writing, developing the world over time, etc. But it's not important to me. I disagree with your point about real world pantheons being relevant. But if what we're looking for is inherent conflict generation, single pantheon membership is one way to do it. But our game system needs some development or structure so we have some fun conflict and resolutiopn.

I'm on meds. If I need to clear that up any, I'll give it a shot later.

This may seem a bit radical, but here is what I propose.

We shall have an OOC vote on who gets to be promoted to Elder Mod. (Haha, get it?) This way, they are completely impartial because they can't make anything below the planar scale. An Elder Mod's main function is that if the game gets too screwy and a whole bunch of pettiness is slung around and there are curse wars everywhere along with normal wars and rules disputes, the Elder Mod has permission to end the Cycle and make everybody start over.

This way, it will make people cool off. If we are arguing about the rules, well, with the new Cycle, the fundamental laws may change. For example, if we have to progress along a linear level-i.e., planet, cavemen, societies, kingdoms, science, steamtech, biotech, cyberpunk-that may not be the case in the last Cycle, but it is now.

How does this sound?

to be fair, we do have a sun. even if it was made by the god of madness.

Steve,

I think you are maybe getting hung up on the ill-defined nature of the rules. Yes, they are vague, but that can be a feature rather than a flaw. This is obviously a storytelling game in the purest sense. It sounds like you just have a lot of baseline assumptions that aren’t being met, and you feel like we are putting the horse in front of the cart. Without set definitions of time and gravity, why are people making mortals and societies?

Why is time important? Why is gravity important? Obviously the lack of these things should affect the nature of the planet, but a world of Merlins where people zoom around like on the astral plane is just as viable as the Forgotten Realms.

I think the best advice I can give is to just relax and ignore all the basic rules of physics, biology, and sanity. If we get bogged down in details it is really going to detract from the fun and you may have an aneurism. Things work because the literal gods say they do. If a facet of reality seems important enough to do something about, then by all means go nuts, but until that point I am happy assuming that gravity functions or the speed of the great turtle hurtling through space is sufficient to keep people pinned to the ground. Nobody should spend points to make Cosmic Decree: Gravity, because that’s just a waste of points.

I worry that games of this nature (without a clear end-goal or direction from a GM) may very quickly stagnate if there is not some sort of internally driven action. The best way to do this is to have a lot of characters who all have strong conflicting motivations; then everyone becomes the proactive driver of their own story and the conflict forces interaction beyond small-talk. If everyone is not proactive, then proactive characters need to create situations for the reactive characters to react to. World-building then happens as a result as need arises (we have space-farers and so now space is a thing that matters, where before, who cares). If everyone world-builds separately, without common cause or reason, then it isn’t really collaborative world-building, it is a lot of people building separate worlds at the same time.

Lagdorn,

It isn’t a bad idea, but I think getting to the point of hitting the reset button means things have already gotten too bad for the game to really continue in any incarnation. I do think it is a good idea to get either official active Mods to start taking control or a single unbiased individual to step up as acting GM. The problem with the latter is that person should give up a character that they’ve invested time/effort in to remain truly unbiased.

I'd just like to note that I did volunteer to be a tiebreaker mod if the others couldn't come to an agreement. ^^ I suppose one or two of us players could also work on setting things up to get others to respond...

I think part of the problem, possibly the problem, is that this is clearly a game where posting rate "wins".

Lagdorn came in, and was able to quickly establish an "enemy" due to posting a few times, before anybody was able to react.

Another problem is that he's posting to include massive time jumps(centuries and such), whereas right now, the rest of the players are all sort of in the moment or thereabouts, due to Nes' party.

Which creates a problem based on the way AP are gained and spent based on RL time.

If we assume that he created Mirridon at the same time the new world(this damn planet really needs a name), then the people on the original world should likewise have advanced some(in manner befitting them, not necessarily in a tech/science fashion) in the centuries that past, but can't due to the gods not being to spend AP.

Now, this doesn't need to be too big of deal, but I feel like Lagdorn is pretty much violating the first rule of the game, and the main spirit of the game, which is to at the very least, talk out massive, game changing events first with the affected players.

I really feel like all the issues that have arisen could have been easily avoided or dealt with, if Lagdorn had come here first and said "Hey guys, I plan to create a race of space faring warriors, with my crazy science powers. Is that OK with the rest of you?" Or something to that affect.

Right now, it seems like he's just coming in and is about to lay waste to the People Aeon created, which is DEFINITELY a violation of the Rule 1.