Leinathan's Legacy of Fire PbP AP (Inactive)

Game Master leinathan

No. I don't think you understand. You, Apollo, don't actually own any items under this system, at least not in theory. Nor does Apollo have any gold. You do IC, but OOC we treat it like you don't.

You don't even have to sell the axe to buy upgrades for your hammer. You just have to give it up. The reason you can't get the hammer upgraded is not because you don't have enough gold, but rather because you're already carrying too much equipment.

If you give up the axe, then nobody is using it (and it can thus be claimed) and then you spend 4,000 of the spare gold in the pool to upgrade your hammer. If you sell the axe, then the pool of gold goes up by 4,175gp, and then you upgrade the hammer and spend 4,000 of that gold. In that case, the axe is gone and your hammer is upgraded.

There is no need for a character to ever actually carry cash around in this system, as all liquid money is shared and only used when somebody needs to buy something.

Okay, so let's say I give it up....Gnoll Bane Hammer replaces it straight away? I was thinking of roleplaying the selling of it in character.

Edit: I think I understand now.

Everything is marked up at half the price it was originally worth, so giving up the Axe would mean I'd then effectively have the funds to turn my Hammer into +1 Bane because the 4,175gp is essentially 8,350gp, meaning my allotted wealth would be (from the Axe alone) 175 after Gnoll bane had been acquired. Then that in addition to the starting wealth I have left over (which is actually Apollo's), I can do what I want with.

No, you have to wait eight days in-game for a magic item vendor to craft your new magic hammer (one day per 1,000gp in the base cost of the item, as per Craft Magic Arms and Armor).

Do you want to SELL it, or do you just want to give it up?

Does anyone else want the +1 evil outsider bane greataxe?

If either way would grant me the upgrade, I want to do what's best for the party, so essentially I could roleplay trading with another character for coin unless I "sell" it, which would be giving it up to a vendor and yea I'd wait 8 days in game if needed. There's in game reason for delay too. :)

Edited my above post btw. :)

As much as I'd love to wait 8 days for a weapon that was 80% of our WPL in gold, I don't think Dmitri could contain himself while we waited. Besides, you deal plenty enough damage to them as is. You and Dmitri are going to have to have the gnoll talk very soon, I imagine... Probably mid-seduction.

Haha, well I have in game reasons to justify waiting a week as well! :-)

So, the problem with removing and selling it, is ALL things sell at half value (except things like, gems, jewelry, etc.). So selling an 8k axe, gives the whole party only 4k money. Not enough to pay for an 8k upgrade.

That is why all weapons and armor are priced at half in this system, is because once sold, it is only worth half the actual price. We pre-price them at half, so selling it doesn't bring down the total party value by half the value of the item.

Also, as we don't own any of the stuff as much as hold a receipt for its value, once sold the value gets added to the party total and split by the 5 of us, so our max value of leased items each raises only 800 gp.

Really, by the game rules, it takes a lot of refused treasure sold to equal the ideal magic items bought. So if our WBL is 10500, and we are given that in items, which we all decide to sell, then we have basically traded 10500 of GM assigned items, for 5250 worth of self specific items. It is never actually a lucrative venture to sell magic items unless the GM specifically puts high value items we are sure to sell just so we can buy our WBL from stuff we want.

Correction: We get no extra value increase for any of us, since the value of the weapon is already figured into our total party wealth.

It is already worth 4k in the party, or 4k out of the party, and our values neither increase nor decrease. Meaning that if it can't be afforded now, it can't be afforded after the item is sold.

That said, you know you don't have to get all enchantments at once? If there is enough, you can pay the 2k to get +1 on it, then later only pay 6k (the difference between a +1 and +2) to enhance it.

Yea, though I'd very much like it for him now if possible (after the 8 days prep) and anything left over will go on upping his armour, but after that? No idea. Once his mission's complete (if he survives), he'll just be winging things until he finds a new direction to take in his adventuring life. :)

I honestly don't think we have 8 in-game days to wait. Don't get me wrong. Dmitri doesn't care about the lives of any man outside his house, but Gnolls DID manage to escape and are likely returning to Ghartok himself as we speak. (And, depending on just how evil he is, getting cut down by said person.) Needless to say, the next force won't be so small, and there will likely be more guard casualties.

Speaking from a LG standpoint, we should go fight them before that happens since we know they're definitely evil.

Speaking from the LE standpoint, I just want to come along and enjoy the savagery and defend my personal interests, as well as chastise Apollo for his definite inability to handle Ghartok alone.

Also I'd like to take this moment to point out that Dmitri doesn't whore out men of any kind.

If I had to place numbers on the number of female workers, it'd be atleast 12. That said, after we get back from the House of the beast, with what I can only imagine is a hefty amount of gold, he'll probably throw 200 of it at the women that work there.

Funny thing is, is that we, as adventurers, bicker over who wants to spend 8000 gold, when quite honestly, if we ever decided to settle down, we'd find ourselves spending, at best, 5 gold a day, and that's if we were looking to really live a good life.

A dragon hoarde of the youngest variety could very well feed an entire village for a month, and not just in small meals, either.

I once, on another Lilith worshipping man, bribed the gravekeeper in midnight mirror with 200 gold. This was the same, slightly stressed out, gray haired young lady that probably got paid in copper pieces. Needless to say she told us everything she knew and left the city in less than half an hour.

I'd be okay, as a player, with Apollo spending the 2000 on the +1 hammer, but at the moment I just don't think we have the time for a full on +2 modifier weapon to get crafted by a wizard or sorcerer, or cleric, before another group, bigger, comes after the town.

Also Kori you would definitely notice that the workers are making it a point to avoid anything beyond idle conversation with you.

In other news entirely, and you can tell me to stop putting these here if it's starting to get annoying, I made this guy for the game I'm going to play next semester.

He's one of the five final bosses of the last quests. The players will be about level 18 or 19 when they fight him and he's just... well... Let's put it like this.

At the start of the campaign you actually save him from the first, easiest mission from a bunch of goblins. Honestly he could end up dieing right there at the start of the game and this won't even happen.

First Save
He's in a cage covered in oil about to be incinerated for a Goblin Druid 2's amusement.

Second Save
Defeated promptly by bandits and forced into a dungeon cellar with no food. Undergoing the final level of hunger and close to death.

Third Save
Fighting multiple augmented soldiers on the other side of bars in the middle of an escalating war situation.

Final Save
Dominated by a Succubus and instilled with unholy power. Half-fiend template applied, minus the claws and bite attack. Succubus has to be killed first and actually fights the players alongside her, and a plethora of evil clerics.

Provided you save him EVERY SINGLE TIME, on the final save he will beg the players not to take away his newfound power (The template, which, as a result of being so fresh, can be removed with remove curse against a caster level 16). If you do attempt to take it, he will actually lash out, dominated or not, and try his best to stop you, with tears in his eyes saying that he doesn't want to be weak anymore.

Provided you allow him to keep the power, he comes into contact with the cultists once again, as well as the succubus, and gains 5 levels in Antipaladin, not to mention almost full power from the half-fiend template. The cult is powerful, and his patron showers his unrivaled hunger for power with wish spells that increase his stats even more, as well as gives him no small amount of magical armaments.

To be honest, I doubt Apollo could take him alone either, but out of honour for his people, that's what he wants and will be his ultimate test.

As for time in Kelmerance, don't forget we still need to find our lead and that might take a few days alone. That and there's no telling if the Gnoll's will invade again.

It'd probably be a good idea to spend a week preparing our town guards for future attacks, and more importantly, the people residing here.

I don't think Apollo would want to set out sub-optimised against the race he most hates, knowing he's most likely going to die, even if he hasn't accepted it yet or said it out loud. He takes hits and can't stand up to the punishment because of his low hp, but to counter that he hits hard, so what he needs to do is hit so hard that it would be possible to survive by overpowering his opponent with only one or two swings against the stronger typed Gnoll's that be around/exist (such as the Flind in the Battle Market).

Rather than roleplaying with the "I can't take a hit", I instead pin it down to the fact that he has a very big hammer. He can't dodge as fast as you guys because of this, so therefore he leaves himself open a lot more. :)

Going back to time though, I don't know how long we have. We may have a week, we may have longer and we may have less time. I doubt Ghartok will show up himself though. He's far too arrogant to leave his Throne I feel.

So, that means there are reasons to stay, but it depends on what happens. I'll have a post later to see where it goes.

I don't think Apollo would want to set out sub-optimised against the race he most hates, knowing he's most likely going to die, even if he hasn't accepted it yet or said it out loud. He takes hits and can't stand up to the punishment because of his low hp, but to counter that he hits hard, so what he needs to do is hit so hard that it would be possible to survive by overpowering his opponent with only one or two swings against the stronger typed Gnoll's that be around/exist (such as the Flind in the Battle Market).

There's also the option of purchasing quite the potent composite longbow and accepting your very obvious weakness.

Let's be realistic here. No matter how much you amp up your strength, Ghartok is the leader of a bunch of gnolls. Not just a bunch of gnolls, but every single tribe in the pale mountains. You don't rule that kind of place with wit and guile, no, you rule it by being what I imagine is one seriously devastating m%!~~+%$#&+#. Kardswann ruled the gnolls in Kelmerane, and he seemed like he had a pretty ridiculous strength score. You killed the Flindbar gnoll that disarmed me, who, let me remind you, barely failed his disarm maneuever against you (If he even made one.)

You are not capable, and will not be capable for a long time, of killing someone who, if I'm taking guesses, is part of an epic encounter. That means he's Cr 8. That means he's likely a level 9 enemy. The only physical score that probably isn't through the roof is his dexterity, and even for me, with my ridiculous constitution and health for my level, I don't want to think about trading blows with a guy that has 30+ strength. Kardswann probably didn't have that, and I don't think I could have handled 5 blows from him.

Apollo, we'll be talking about this in-game soon, I imagine, but if you try to fight Ghartok in Melee with your hammer, I'll give you props for roleplay, but you're ultimately going to be embarassed.

Let's assume he's got a strength of 30. Let's assume he's CR 8 with 9 levels in things that hopefully have full BAB. That's a Modifier of +19 alone. Throw in the +1 weapon he's ravaged from some poor fool, or scarier yet, made, and that's +20. Gnolls seem to like axes, so let's give him a greataxe for good measure. Hell, let's just assume a 2 handed weapon.

This guy will single handedly one shot you. He will remember your face, if you're lucky, and truly slice you, your quest, your dreams, and your ambitions, in one go, and then he'll laugh. He'll laugh for a while. And then we'll kill him. And then we get like 4 months of brooding out of Apollo because he wasn't strong enough or something, and Dmitri isn't about to have that.

For the love of all that is holy and good, when the fight reveals itself and mr.muscles gets off his big dick throne, pull out the bow. Hell a +4 Composite one right now is suuuuuper cheap and does exactly what your hammer does, accurately, from a distance.

For the record, Kardswann had 20 Strength, but the thing that really made him deadly was his +8 BaB and power attack. That's a +9 bonus to damage while using power attack with two-handed weapons.

He was a janni with two fighter levels, by the way.

How about I just post and see if I can stop you guys from just speculating about it? XD

Also, Dmitri, Apollo HAS bought a composite longbow with a +4 Strength rating. It's just that he hasn't invested in archery feats (choosing instead to invest in mounted feats (which, by the way, you have to either purchase a horse or wait until Nom is level 7 to use)) so it's more damaging to Power Attack with a hammer. It deals eight more damage (2 strength rating, 6 from power attack) per hit and only has a 10% lower chance to hit.

Hey, I didn't say I wasn't goign to weaken him with my arrows first. ;)

He'll try to kill the beast on his own terms. All he needs to do is get the last hit with his hammer, then he'll be happy. Alternatively, Kori can capture Ghartok, we can drag him to the Battle Market and Apollo can fight him to the death in the arena. :p

Ha, and yea I know. Nom needs to be level 7 before Ican use those feats, but that's ok. It's all working out on the roleplay front I feel. :)

I mean, except for that Apollo is gaining mounted feats without actually having gone through any practice doing mounted combat XD

Not that you're disallowed from taking those feats or anything. It's just curious.

Yea, acquiring them to then roleplay the training to be able to do them is what I'm doing. :)

I'm not useless at Archery, but I'll be a lot better as time goes on! I'm just crossing my fingers for 8 days of crafting!

Just read the post (at work at the minute) and it sounds like we don't have 8 days...which is disappointing as I wanted that weapon for Apollo's ultimate showdown with Ghartok, but there are other ways around it...which I'll suggest in character.

Time to show leadership skills without being a leader!

New post up after work. :)

It just donned on me that I didn't name that d20 roll, so I'd like to clarify and say that it was a Sense motive check.

8 days to craft this hammer. Could it not have been made at some point during the year passed? If there were ways to improve it, especially with his knowledge of Katapesh's marketplace, he would have tried to improve it somewhere throughout the year, and if he had any spare cash, slightly improve and clean up his armour he acquired from Ugruk too (if his funds allow him to do so, which I believe they do).

He hasn't used the axe in combat for a whole year, so if it's allowed, I'd like to do that and have the loot spreadsheet represent that please.

So you want to give up the axe and improve your armor and your earthbreaker?

If that's alright. If my calculations are correct, that allows me to make the Hammer Gnoll Bane and turn my Masterwork armour into +1. I haven't put enough time into working out whether I can get it to +2 armour yet, but I believe with my bow that would be pretty hard to accomplish.

20AC probably won't help much for our level, but it's better than 19, ha!

I'd like to point out that I'm actually quite okay with Apollo doing this with his axe, if only because Angmar's departure was quite sudden and without warning, and If I recall, he was the one with the axe as it was his deity's favored weapon.

That said, I don't really mind a lot of things. I'm gonna post up Dmitri's ultimate opinion on all of this.

I thiiiink I've updated the loot sheet correctly.

I might need to go through it on paper sometime and make sure it's all correct sometime, but as I know now it's done.

Apollo gave up the axe sometime during the year and upgraded his hammer to a +1 earthbreaker and purchased +1 breastplate. I realized that there isn't actually enough spare gold to upgrade the hammer all the way to being gnoll bane (there needs to be around 5,200 more gold for that, for a total of 7,000). Loot sheet reflects this.

I'll actually sell the axe when it seems like nobody wants it for sure, and add the gold total to your spare gold.

Ah really? I thought with our loot of 5489gp, that effectively gives us 10978gp each as we're working at half value, which would mean:

2350gp for the +1 Hammer (as I think an Earthbreaker is 50gp, could be wrong)
1350gp for +1 Breastplate
300gp for cure mod potion
500gp for a +4 Str Composite Longbow

So, 4500gp out of a possible 10978gp overall, which means by my working the Gnoll Bane can be made with 478gp spare (239gp working by halves), as it costs an additional 6000 to make a +1 weapon a +2 weapon.

Gold isn't counted as half. The spare gold is in full.

The problem is NOT that you don't have enough room in your personal gold pile. The problem is that you don't have enough gold to purchase it. There was about 5300 gold, 3000 of which went towards purchasing the upgrades for your hammer (2000gp) and your armor (1000gp). Half of that was added as loot to your personal hoard (1500gp). You need 6000 more gold (and 3000 gold in room) to add gnoll bane to your hammer. You have one of those things (the room) but you don't have the gold, as the group only has 2300 left.

Ah right, so it's looking unlikely I'll get a Gnoll Bane in time for the doggy douche. Sad thing is, I only wanted it for that purpose, and I can't imagine there would be much use for a Gnoll Bane hammer after that (haven't gotten past The Carrion King before), so that weakens Apollo considerably (lower damage output, dangerously low AC).

I still honestly don't get the whole loot thing though. I thought it all went on the "Gold in room", since the explanation given the other day. I didn't think we had any personal gold, just an amount of wealth in room we could use.

That's how I've been working everything out anyway.

Wow I missed big posts...

You don't have personal gold. Nobody does, but the group still shares an amount of liquid cash that you gather.

In order to actually purchase items, you have to have the "room" AND the gold to spare. In order to get items from your group that are unclaimed, you need only the room.

The point of the gold-room thing is to make sure that everyone has roughly equivalent loot-gear, but that doesn't mean that you simply have as much gold as you want for purchases.

Okay, and no I'm not just pulling random coins from the air. I just thought we each had an allocated amount of 10978gp that we could use freely, with that amount equalling the 5489gp we have allocated at half value.

So the cash we each have, is that 2729gp? I really don't have a clue how much we have each once more.

Room value is 5489gp.
Cash is 2729gp (from the look of things)

So if we're not doubling our Room value, but in fact adding it to the cash value, should we not all have 8218gp worth to spend?

Gold pricing aside, I kind of dropped a giant drama bomb. Sincerest apologies, but this has kind of been eating Dmitri.

No, wrong yet again.

Your room value is, in terms of sell price, the amount of gold in items you can carry.

Each item is priced at sell price (so half price)

The gold, however, is not, and the total gold (2,729gp) is shared between all of the party. That's not to say that it's divided in five pieces and given to each party member. No, by this system, no one carries cash. Instead, it's just a pool that anyone can draw from whenever they'd like to buy something.

You have an allocated amount, but you can't just use it freely. You have to either have the item or the cash to spend. The amount is just to denote the maximum gold amount you can carry at any given time.

Wrong yet again......thanks for the patronising wording here. :-/

It's a very strange system to use. So we have the wealth of like a 2nd or 3rd level character but have access to loot of upwards of 5000gp here. Gotta say, for someone who rarely uses any of the party loot items, I much prefer the standard way, but if that's what you're doing, I'll be dead soon anyway.

Here, let me try to help break it down.

So, technically we have a total ITEM VALUE of 49,442 gp, and COIN value of 2,729 gp as a whole party all together. Meaning, that if you add them together, and divide by 5, we each should have 10,434 gp VALUE.

BUT, since all items sell at 1/2 price, our RESELL ITEM VALUE is 24,721, plus our COIN value 2,729 gp, means we each have access to 5,489 gp WORTH of individual wealth (but drawn from a shared pool).

The axe is already figured into that value. So, if you sell it, we still only have 5,489 gp WORTH of individual wealth. Meaning that you free up 4,175 gp of what you have access to, but it doesn't actually give us any more money.

Creating a +1 Bane weapon, costs 8,000 gp, which the party as a whole may have between us, but of that you still are only alotted 5,489 gp of that.

Now, if the party doesn't mind you taking a loan from the party loot total to have your weapon, then it can be afforded, but you are WAY over your allowed share of the loot.

The key to remember with this system, is that every item we find gets added to our total, at its RESELL value, so it doesn't skew the numbers when it is sold.

Ah right, so that's how it's working out. I guess in a sense I wasn't too far off with my workings, but clearly my general gist was way off.

Thanks for clearing that up Kori. :)

If you're all okay with me taking a loan from the party, I'd really like to do that, and I'd be happy to wait some time before I could start getting upgrades again, only taking items for protection if you guys suggest it.

Would that be something you'd be happy with? I mean Lein's agreed to have it so the upgrades took place in the year period just gone, so that won't be an issue on that front, but if you're happy for me to loan off of you guys and not take any loot for as long as necessary, I'm happy to do that and won't question anything we find, because this is what's most important to me right now. :)

Sadly, as it is I'm over my share by about 200-300 (didn't realize I mathed badly until he updated it). So, I have none of my share to loan.

Also, as I had mentioned a while ago upthread, buying an 8k item, becomes 4k in RESELL ITEM VALUE. Therefore making our total wealth drop by 4k. This means that each person has 800 less of a share.

Overall, by the rules of the system, a found item of treasure will always be worth more than an equal strength purchased item of treasure. Because though they are WORTH an equal number of power in gp, selling an 8k item, only nets a 4k return.

Meaning that if you sell an 8k item we found, you can only buy a 4k item to replace it (which becomes worth only 2k on resell). It's always diminishing returns when buying the items you want, vice finding items and adapting the PC to them.

That being said, my full plate was totally worth it. There's a good chance that, prior to departing, I'll buy a regular Heavy Steel Shield and a Longsword. As much as I love tempest and it's ability to hurt quite a bit, the fact remains that some of these enemies are going to require I be a bit high in regards to my armor class. 24 is actually high for our current level, I believe.

Fully charged I have plenty of corruptive touches, and whatnot. Can't use those, if I recall, when I'm wielding 2 things in my hands. I can do it with the scythe because I can just let go of it for a moment. The issue is losing Tempest's damage is kind of a big deal, but I don't hit that hard anyway.

I look forward to finally getting the Desecrate spell, because I'm definitely going to cast it on the enchantress. Though it'll be in a bit of secret. I'm sure the patrons won't mind.

One thing I curse is the fact that Dmitri has such a low strength score. He can hit just fine, from the looks of things, but there are so few things to smite good upon in good conscience. I'd love to get some sort of item that makes enemies detect as good, haha. That'd open them up for some serious punishment from yours truly.

I think the next in-game day I'll prepare protection from Chaos.

Also, Lein, I need to ask about that. Protection from Law isn't originally on the Antipaladin list and the list assumes that Antipaladins are chaotic evil, thus the protection from good/law. Would you mind if I switched out protection from law with chaos so I could use it instead?

Ah ok, I guess I just need to hear what everyone else is happy to do then, but I won't ever be getting rid of my hammer.. That'll just be upgraded until it can't anymore. :-)

You do realize once a magical item has been crafted that it can't be upgraded ever again, correct? That +1 hammer will be a +1 hammer forever. Afterwards you can't really upgrade it, you know. You have to buy a new hammer at that point that happens to be +2 or +1 Bane, and whatnot.

Though whether it gets "Upgraded" or not will be up to Lein. I'm more worried about desecrating my scythe and corrupting its soul.

You are inherently wrong Dmitri.

According to the magic item rules. You can upgrade any item by paying the difference between the current value of the item and the new end result. To upgrade a +1 to a +2, you need only 6k gold, and the appropriate pre-reqs (spells, caster level, creation feat, etc.)

Someone make it a point to remind me to stab a man by the name of Thomas -------. At this rate I'm going to have to completely read the core rulebook again. I always imagined that making more sense, and thought I'd been houseruling it.

On a side note, if you have the time, Oz can take his turn now.

Was actually in the middle of doing that, but for the most part I'm just going to stab a rat in the base of its' neck again. I'll mosey on over there.

So it just donned on me that I've kept Keth's sickle this Entire time. Read like the first 5 pages of the PbP and tell me our characters haven't changed. I USED TO TALK IN ITALICS.

If you want to upgrade your hammer, that's fine, but you need to somehow get the coin value up to 6,000gp. There currently isn't enough cash to actually purchase the item.
Also, you need to make sure that nobody else goes from having enough "room" to not having enough "room". That is to say, if the decrease in everyone else's value means that somebody can't afford their items, you can't sell an item.

Yea, so I guess if Je'Grik, Dmitri and Brek are happy for me to loan from them, it may be possible, but I'd just like to make it a point in saying I would do the same for anyone else. I wouldn't ask if I wouldn't as that's completely unfair on everyone else.

@Dmitri - You've always been able to upgrade your items for just the difference in price. The only exception is having a non-magical weapon and wanting a magical counterpart. A magical weapon needs to be built as a magical weapon. Well....unless you want to cast magic weapon on your weapon and then cast permanency haha. So pricey!

I'll have my response to you guys after work by the way. I finish at 9pm tonight, so that's like 4pm by most of your time. :)

That bit's actually not true either. You can't make a MUNDANE weapon into a magical weapon, but you CAN make a masterwork weapon into a magical weapon.

If they're fine with you going over your WBL to take the item, you still can't buy it until the party has enough cash.

Hmm, and that's quite some time I feel.

If it's absolutely impossible to get it before our raid, can I grab a +1 or +2 Amulet of Natural Armour? As in, turn my Gnoll Tooth necklace into one? If there's a chance I'll be obliterated shortly, if I can't get the weapon that might save my life, I'm thinking I should make use of the rest of my wealth for now.