Inb4 someone else mentions that +1 full plate is 2,650gp.
Also, yes, Tempest is a plot item, and will improve with levels.
Thirdly, Whirlwind is not an intelligent item like Tempest is. It's certainly an item with some plot significance, tied to the latter weapon, but not intelligent nor aligned.
The problem with splitting up the big items by what people want is that everyone wants the greataxe and everyone wants the ring and everyone wants the magical breastplate (save Dmitri, who is getting armor that no one else can have).
I just split up the loot like I did above to have an attempted even split of value, so that if one wanted to sell their own loot for the purpose of buying alternative loot, they could.
Angmar - I'm not exagerrating. I know I didn't want them, which is kind of the point. I'm very specific with what I want. I'm not selfish. I state usually one item I like and when that's not available, I go down the list in order of most wanted to least. I even gave Dmitri a gem I found in the Monastary when I could have kept that hidden and sold it later on. I would just like to have my own fair say in the matter, but on every occasion so far, that hasn't been the case. what you feel I should have, I may not feel I should have based on my own characters tastes.
I don't agree with Kori having the armour, the same as I don't agree with you having the Axe, but in case with Kori, armour spikes would be better for her than Apollo. It's easy for one to say that when they get what they want, but rather than jumping on me, it'd be nice if you saw things from my point of view.
Presented with the following items, I'll just give you an example of how I go about magic items:
You find a scroll of burning hands, 2 spears, bracers of armour +4, a masterwork Earthbreaker, 5 bottles of cure mod wounds and a +2 greatsword.
I would go for the Masterwork Earthbreaker. It's not the best from that list by any means and it's certainly not worth the most, but it works best for my character. Rings and jewellery I'm not bothered about. the same goes for capes. Apollo knows his own tastes and won't wear certain items, but that's not to say I wouldn't take them to a specialist merchant to get the abilities put onto items I do want to have.
I follow what my character desires more than optimising. It's more fun for me and having others dictating what I can or cannot do is a real turn off for me.
If I said nothing I feel this would just keep repeating itself as nobody but me is keeping track of where the loot is going, so to not make me feel even further backed into a corner, I mentioned something. It's not an exaggeration in the slightest and if you feel it is, that's your opinion.
In saying nothing, I would feel less happy as the only player from the beginning I've truthfully gotten along fine with has been Dmitri. I know you dislike me Angmar and that's down to you, the same as I also know that in light of this, it's doubtful Lein would want me in any of his future games, but being honest, this is the only group I've been playing with for a long time where disagreement's have occurred and the issues have been generated from mixed feelings all around (minus Dmitri really).
If you have a look at a Curse of the Crimson Throne game I was playing in (got up to Eel's End), I got on brilliantly with the whole party, and that's a campaign if Lein got to the same stage in, I'd like to pick up from, but yea, I know the situation. I'm over-analytical to a fault.
@Lein - Thanks for sorting that. Obviously it's not what I wanted (expressing I wanted the axe as a thought and not something out loud in game - before everyone), but I just get tired of feeling left out. I had enough of that in school. I'm 26 now, most people here are probably 20 or older and I'd like to think we're all past this.
The loot list that I've made is by no means final, it's just a suggestion. Ultimately, it's up to you folks to decide what goes where, I just thought it was a fair distribution.
As the loot goes, I have this feeling that you're accusing the others of feeling a certain way that you yourself are feeling. That is to say, you're accusing the others of not taking your interests into account when determining loot.
Any of the PCs have just as much claim on the loot as your character does, so asking for something that another is asking for, and then claiming greed on the other ones' side is a little bit silly. Both of the big items that you're missing out on and wanting work very well on the other characters that want them.
Oh, and just ah...FYI, I'm eighteen.
I'd prefer you wouldn't have to make every argument here personal it clouds judgment and will make dividing up loot far more complicated.
I was trying to come up with a plan to fairly divy up loot and get everyone well equipped. But was clearly taking an optimization perspective here.
Also obviously I was not successful, so have the axe.
However please stop making personal acquisitions in here whenever there is disagreement it ruins my fun.
So guys?
Please stop with the strife.
Don't insult the other players for their IC actions.
Don't whine.
Don't talk about how others' playstyles are wrong and ruin your fun.
Don't insult the other players for the OOC action.
Just stop fighting. Really. This is a simple division of the spoils of your victory and it's turning into a fight.
Apollo, every big decision that this game has seen has turned into you causing a fight. Please stop. I'm tired of it.
As you've done with me from the very beginning Angmar. so let's let bygones be bygones and both just give it a rest.
Brek would take the slippers. Makes him more useful and can find more positions to use my abilites more. +1 dagger would be great thanks.
Ring and cloak and the others, I don't exactly need, the other items not really. I'm more of a utility guy and I came in with the intention to be the support guy.
My thoughts are:
Frontliners and melee ppl take the weapons and armor.
Me? I'm good with whatever else is left. If it's ok, I can just identify everyone of them and tell you all what each item does what?
The wand is good in my hands as other than throwing rays about, I won't be doing anything much and I certainly won't be running into combat.
An important thing to consider:
Are you splitting by usefulness or by wealth?
As soon as we wrap up wealth division I'll move us forward :) No one add anything to your character sheets until everything's settled, though.
I'm fine with nothing, actually. Je'grik joined in merely because the fight didn't seem fair. He showed off he's skills a bit, but hey, the Sun is pretty flashy. ;)
I did like Lein's suggestion for my possible loot though.
I'd argue for splitting by usefulness then selling everything we don't need to generate a large pool of cash to buy more useful things. Ultimately the comparison of loot by these means would be fairer as people only have things they want in their possession and thus counting against their personal wealth total.
Also I'll try and get an Excel sheet up for all the loot collected up to here and make separate sheets for each adventure path. To this aim could everyone please give me a tally of what loot you currently hold. This tally would prolly also have to include Brek and Jegrik's magical starting equipment.
By keeping a tally we'd always have an objective measure of each PCs personal wealth then when it comes to divvying up cash and loot we can try to make things even out. While this won't lead to everyone always being on par all the time the next time we have a 5k stash of gold and we see okay Dimitri is 5k over JeGrik in terms of loot Jegrik gets to buy an item of his choice and Dimitri has to wait. To this aim I'll also add a wishlist tab for each player. I hope such an approach will avoid people feeling wrong done.
Furthermore I'd argue that expendables such as wands, potions and other things that benefit the party as a whole should not be counted against such a measure of wealth. Also things like a wand of CLW should not be payed for by individuals but by party funds.
I'd appreciate some feedback on these propositions as coming up with an Excel sheet to work this out will be a bit difficult so I'd like to hear everyones thoughts first.
If we can't agree on procedures then ultimately having Lein assign loot would be easiest.
Okay, so I did a preliminary thing. It'll get more organized as time goes on, but I started a spreadsheet.
Feel free to edit at will. It's a google docs, so I hope you have a google account. Go ahead and add in all of the things that you want from this particular treasure hoard (even if it overlaps with other peoples' requests).
Then, please come into the discussion thread and put a short blurb explaining why your character should have that item.
This seems to work in the 12-person Kingmaker group that I'm in. Anything that nobody puts down, the sale price will be added to a general sale area and sold for gold when you reach an area with an appreciable market.
Also, I added it to the bar on top for continual ease of reference.
Thanks for hosting this Lein. However I can't access it. Either you have to make it public or everyone has to ask for permission.
The modus operandi you suggest above works in my experience in all PbP games I'm in. However essentially it's what we have been trying to do here so I'm not sure it's gonna work out.
Edit: Also since I believe in critical self reflection and this had me really riled up last night I read through the first ten pages of the OOC thread to see where I had attacked Apollo personally. And while I was frank and confrontational on some issues I couldn't find a post where I made any personal attacks.
Also IC I have found a good reason for Angmar to pass on the axe. Kardaswann was described as super big and mega muscular and his axe is really humongo even for him. While technically he is medium and that that makes it a medium sized weapon Angmar is very small for a medium sized creature wheras Apollo is this big strong Shoanti Warrior.
So once we've found Haleen Angmar will conclude.
A mighty fine axe. A shame it's too big for me. Must be a sign from Angrodd you was chosen to wield it boy!
Nah, if you don't want to give it away, keep it. Do what your character would do. Honestly, I just want to get past this and move on. If you want it, go for it. I think you're lawful good and right now, Apollo is hardly a good guy if he's trying to wipe out an entire race....even if said race is evil!
So its properties would probably suit you more.
On with the game!
So now we have arrived at the situation that no one wants the axe?
Angmar is lawful Neutral and it's evil outsider bane so from that perspective it'll better suit Apollo. There are some other OOC reasons for me to pass on the axe.
I like the extra AC from the shield as it gives Angmar that sturdy Dwarven feel. Also currently he's still dishing out nice damage so that works for the time being. The Bane ability I aquire level 5 makes the Axe's extra ability semi moot for Angmar.
So all things considered OOC it prolly makes more sense for Apollo to have it.
Also IC this could work as a way for Angmar and Apollo to bond.
And likewise I want to leave the fussing and fighting behind.
I thiiiiink that I've made it public.
Nope, haha.
Okay NOW I'm pretty sure I've done it. Sorry, folks, I'm a derp.
That works. :)
Okay, I can get into the link, but didn't want to change anything.
I want to move the +1 scimitar to the sell pile. I've been trying to give it away for some time now, but have been carrying it since no one took me up on the offer.
As far as want. Kori only wants one thing. The spiked armor. She started this game with spiked armor, the deity from her visions that gives her powers also wears spiked armor, and she can use it often in combat with two-weapon fighting or while grappling like she often does.
From an OOC meta standpoint, the 3 point increase in AC is nice as well and helps make up for the -2 AC when raging.
There may be other things good for her, but she doesn't think about or think like that, since she only really knows fighting stuff.
The potion of magic fang, specifically, she would not really understand what it does unless someone explained it to her, as she has no real understanding of magic/spells. It would just help as the only on who frequently uses a natural/unarmed attack.
Neither Kori, nor I, would really want anything else from the loot (besides a share of money, she understands money). Anything that isn't a weapon or armor she has little use for. Even then she doesn't want the magic armor because it's magic, she wants it because it's tougher spiky armor than her current spiky armor.
I can look but can't touch Lein...
Okay with 2 out of 6 players mainly wanting loot for IC reasons my optimization approach to loot distribution will never bear fruit.
I've prepared an alternate sheet (which I stole from one of my GMs). It does all the calculations for you and I added tabs for bookkeeping for every player.
Edit: Also sheet should be editable. Also hooray over thirty and still have more computer skills than a teenager ;)
Whatever. You guys handle loot XD You can vote that I handle it, but otherwise I'm just gonna leave it alone. I'll be back in a few days.
You guys are so much better at using Excel than I am, holy s~#&.
I didn't make that myself... at least not fully. I'm actually not all that good at Excel cause I tend to use Statistics software for everything numbers related.
Are we still on the loot thing?
Let's just deal with it in character. If characters want it, that's fine. If they want to give it away, that's also fine, and requests...well, let's do them in character too.
Personally, I think IC reasons should really be the only reasons. I understand the want of fairness and even distribution, but it comes with the territory of oddities.
The weirder the build, the less often stuff will be just right for the PC. If I want to be a spiked-chain wielder, then I can't complain when the others that use longswords find more magic items that suit them. Long swords are common, spiked-chains are not. The more common a type of weapon or armor, the more likely there will be magic versions found.
When we find loot, WE don't find it, THEY (the PC's) do. So all discussion on what they want to do with it should come from them. You want an organized method of distribution, then it makes some sense coming from Angmar, since he's LN. Maybe a little from Dmitri (as LE), but his would be more likely based on fair by who he thinks deserves it more.
Kori, wants what she wants, she's CN. There is no rhyme or reason besides it being stuff she herself likes. Apollo wants stuff for either it memento (enemy slain) or aesthetic value (how he thinks it will look). It's in our character's interests to discuss who should get what, not the value of what each person has, or who has more of what.
If Apollo mentions IC why he wants the axe, and Angmar explains IC why he wants it, then the PC's IC should address it the same way.
Me personally, as every religious character I have ever played, I always try to wield the weapon of my deity. It's just something I've always done. So I understand Angmar's position.
I've tried to say very little on this, as I'm only asking for 1 thing, and for some reason my posts are seen as attacks.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Apollo, yes, it is an IC issue, and that's where it should be handled.
I actually didn't see your post as an attack this time, ha!
I'm not likely to find another Earthbreaker, which is why I'm so intent on upgrading my own.
This direction with armour and Gnoll's though - I really did not expect to go this way with Apollo, but hey, he's now probably going mental. Dmitri already is and our party's far from normal, so that's fine by me. :)
[Brek] So I fell in with a bunch of manics....
*facepalm*
Turns to controller, you knew that didn't you?
[me] No No No....I had nothing to do with it, I swear......
A couple of clarifications...
Apollo, you and I will be out of commission for a bit. It will take us each 4 minutes to put on the new armors (or 1 minute if we suffer the penalties to do it hastily), me another 1 minute to remove my current armor, and you 4 more minutes to remove yours.
Also, Urguk didn't have a ring, just the armor, flind-bar, and 2 potions. Kardswann has the spiked armor, greataxe, and 2 potions.
Undrella had 7 potions with her lab here.
All the other stuff is in some room we find elsewhere.
Fail, I thought it was on him. Doh.
Could just flavour that he was wearing a ring (just not magical) to save retconning. As for the armour, yea. I basically made my post spanning across the length of time it takes to complete my actions, with the possibility of having to fight the Gnoll Bartender without armour on (if it chooses to attack), but I just didn't say anything regarding that.
So do I understand correctly? We screw fairness in loot distribution and a loot sheet for the sake of IC?
Gotta say I disagree with that stance. Any other opinions?
Nah, we try to make loot distribution fair in character, was my thinking.
Okay, I have a thing that's completely non-loot related.
It occurred to me that Dmitri had been looking at antipaladin archetypes, of which there is only one...but then it occurred to me that you can adapt paladin archetypes to just be evil-themed instead...So, is Dmitri interested in any paladin archetypes?
I looked around myself and saw a couple that would be easy to implement (no retraining time and easy to adapt). the sacred servant and the hospitaler. Take a look?
Also, my two cents, just as DM, on the loot distribution scale, is that adventures assume that each character has a rough amount of value in loot on their person that they are using. As loot adds power to a character, having a character with significantly less loot than others makes that character underpowered.
That's not to say that you have to abandon loot distribution to make the justifications in-character or abandon roleplaying to make the game balanced...there's room here for both.
Also, ah, Apollo...cleaning one's armor is perfectly viable.
If only I had Create Water. ;)
So do I understand correctly? We screw fairness in loot distribution and a loot sheet for the sake of IC?
Gotta say I disagree with that stance. Any other opinions?
Then no, you do not understand correctly. Are you saying that you cannot have fairness of loot without having a loot tracking sheet with all the equateable numbers on it?
Loot fairness works itself out IC, when EVERYONE involved is concerned with the greater success of the group overall over personal value.
For simplicity, let's use just a Fighter and Wizard example party.
The group finds magic plate mail, magic longsword, and a magic shield. Now, clearly, this is all tailored toward the fighter, and he has a value of a metric ass-ton of GP. Do you believe, for fairness, he should give up half his gear value so the wizard could purchase gear tailored to him? He didn't ask to find it, but he sure as heck can use it.
Say they do an equal split for distribution, then later they find bracers of armor, 3 wands of 2nd lvl spell, and a pearl of power or two. Now the wizard is ahead, with stuff clearly only he can use. But, for fairness, they once again sell half of it to give the fighter his 'fair share'.
Now, we have two members with 3/4 of the value (power) they should be at (due to sell at half), instead of full, just because distribution wasn't immediately fair off the bat.
There are obvious times IC that this can work itself out. There are plenty of times where stuff is 'carried' by someone just because they have the capacity to use it. I had the +1 Scimitar, but haven't used in who knows how long, but carried it because no one else wanted it. Now that weighs against my total, since I have 2 magic weapons.
Even worse, I am given stuff, or offered stuff, I do not want or want to carry, just to maintain numerical balance in GP of gear.
If everything we find in the party, goes to the person who can make the best/most use out of it, the survivability of the party increases. More often than not, the member that finds all the right equipment, shouldn't need as much money treasure to upgrade. Thay also are often more than willing to offer their money share to the person that needs to buy upgrades because they need them to raise group success. One of the simple rules of gaming, Need before Greed.
If you want a perfectly fair system, that can be handled IC. The best method is the buyout method.
Total the entire value of all loot (magic or otherwise excluding 1st level starting gear) and divide by the number of PC's. That's what each gets to "spend" on the gear the party finds. Since all gear has a value we buy out up to our value. We can be in the hole if there is a piece of gear well above anyone's value, but that means they get no treasure until they pay off that value from thier share.
It has always been the best method of total fairness, and if someone IC (Angmar most likely) regulates it, it is therefore also handled IC. For me personally, I think it's too much work, and don't ever want to do it. If someone else does, all the more power to them.
If we do the buyout method, though, I would request it be handled by Lein, as he has the best capacity to represent the value of all we find, and ensure that it has all been tracked (by having the AP telling him what it is all worth and when/where we got it).
Nicely explained, Kori.
I'd like to personally make it a point to say that Dmitri would be hideously against the idea of a newcomer like Brek robbing him of a charisma bonus after all the work they'd put into getting this thing together.
Also, Kori, while I do agree, I must admit that we can't be sure that that will happen, and should prepare accordingly... So I'm actually all for settling this in character, but aside from the +1 Banded Mail and the Charisma headband, Dmitri wouldn't want much else, as that's plenty.
Question, Dmitri. Both OOC and IC. Do you no longer want Tempest? Would you prefer that one of the other characters carried it?
I'm just asking because it's a plot-sensitive item, so I'd very much prefer that somebody kept it, and it's a potentially very powerful magic item, so it's quite a boon...but Dmitri keeps talking about how he doesn't like it.
He doesn't like the fact that it keeps making him feel bad when he knows that at his core he doesn't really care about the things that he's done. He knows that the item is emphatically intelligent, and he's not said a single thing about that to anyone.
I'm aware it's plot sensitive, and I don't think anyone's going to pass up a +1 scythe, because sweet jesus, the X4 critical modifier on that hurts like a b~%*$.
He's likely going to just get mad at it until he finds another scythe, but till then, despite all these feels, he's going to keep it, since it is the weapon of his deity.
A question, Lein. The Mark of Evil is definitely my next feet and I've roleplayed that up quite a bit. Could Je'grik make a heal check to identify whatever it is that's like eating my face, and could it by chance have already taken a small bit of form?
Damn straight you're keeping it :D You won't ever need to replace that s@@&.
If you'd like that development to happen, yeah, sure! That's perfectly fine. Perhaps just a rash-like light redness on your face? Heal DC...15 to know something's wrong with you, Knowledge (planes) DC 20 to know what it is? Is that good?
I figured parts of the Incubus horn would be starting to jut out above his eye at this point, so yeah, we can have Je'Grik roll it. I'll just put up the DC's.
When you say Mark of Evil, do you mean the feat that let's you grossly disfigure people?
Yep! Charisma damage ahoy! :D
Not the most normal of parties, but you wait until we get back to the Monastery!
Apollo has a companion that hopefully is behaving, babysitting a new present for Apollo as well. LOL.
In regards to loot, IC I'm fine not having anything. Makes sense to me actually. Why give some new guy your loot?
I'll take it as we go along as we'll get along splendidly as we progresss along this AP. If I need anything and the party agrees, well I'll just go and get it. At the most, I'll have to 'borrow' I suppose.
No one's going to contest you having the wand, but that Headband is calling my name. Sorry man :C
Like I said Dimitri. Not an issue. I don't have many Save or Die spells yet.
See fair distribution of loot IC is failing already...
If you look at it via one instance of loot, then yes. That's the whole point.
Treasure pile one by itself may not be fairly distributed, same with treasure pile two, but by the time we reach pile three, we are almost exactly where we need to be. The higher you get, the better it balances.
With a party of 5 1st lvl PC's, and finding magic armor +1, and magic weapon +1. We are at unfair distribution.
1 PC has 2000 gp value
1 PC has 1000 gp value
3 PC's don't have any
By the time you reach 7-10th level, all found that isn't wanted, and the rest that parses by class and ability levels out. The higher level you go, the more it matters, but while we are low and the bonuses are low it matters less.
Like I said, if you are dead set on 'even distribution'. Do buyout. Real simple and fair concept, pain in the ass bookkeeping.
Example: Say we each get a value of 5500 (by adding all values and averaging)
I have two items, worth 2315 and 1400, so I have spent 4715.
With just the headband and the ring, Dmitri has 6500
So, I either get 785gp or 785 gp worth of more stuff
But Dmitri is 1000 over, so he doesn't get anything more until we find enough treasure that his 'debt' is paid off.