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Hi there! I was thinking of getting a few players together for an interesting open-ended, sandbox campaign set in pathfinder for a PbP -- check out my idea and tell me if you'd be interested!
Not a traditional pathfinder game, the characters will be various monsters in a dungeon setting, that start as lesser creatures but rise up the food chain taking higher CR forms as conventional players might level. I have various ideas for how this would work in game terms (from mind-control parasites to incorporeal spirits or outsiders that clone/hijack bodies... But players with other ideas may be welcome as well. The idea is you could be a different CR creature every level as circumstances permit, or maybe in case of creatures with class levels progressing that way.. If your form dies you must find a new host/body if able, and the entity the player uses to control those bodies would be for conventions sake very vulnerable without a body. More details for players should this get off the ground.
The goal of the campaign is for the players to start in level one of a mega-dungeon ecosystem, and as they level descend deeper and deeper into the underdark, extending their influence and growing in power via influence and higher CR forms... With the ultimate goals being dominance of the entire dungeon, or various objectives sought by the players.
Any thoughts on this? Anybody have info on monster campaigns or ideas similar to this (so I needn't re-invent the wheel!)
If you're interested in playing something like this let me know your ideas (and/or PM) and what threshold of activity you can handle.
The old "fighting fantasy" monster, the "gonchong" from "island of the lizard king" gave me the idea for this campaign, but whether you know the reference and think that's cool, or fancy being an angry ghost with a penchant for living puppets, or a formless evil from beyond the dark tapestry ... A party of body-snatchers ate the protagonists of this story!!
It sounds super interesting, and allows for a neat degree of role altering that most games don't. For instance, "I'm tired of being the skill monkey, I want to be a front line fighter." "Oh I'll try being the skill monkey, but someone else will have to heal." Etc. And that could change every single level, or at any time, really.
The only concerns I have are that:
1) It kind of takes away the normal character progression, not just as a class but as a character. One could make the case that your parasite's personality is the same through your characters (potentially getting you into trouble at times) or go for a Dr Who approach of it changing on regeneration, but either way it feels like it might lose some of the roleplay.
2) As gaining experience slows down as you gain levels, you could end up being stuck for a long time in a form that you really don't like simply because you made a quick / poor decision. Certainly in Pathfinder you can already take something wrong (feat, spell, etc), but you usually have other things to fall back on.
3) Size. Obviously as the GM you could plan for things, but some of the creatures can get pretty big, which can complicate combat and even traveling through places.
That said, this is something different, which I always try to encourage, and sounds like with the right group that it would be an absolute blast.
Actually I'm curious what would happen with skills in general. A lot of monsters are statted with low intelligence, which they presumably wouldn't have when imbued with a parasitic creature / spirit?
I really do like what you're going with, and being a monster is amazingly fun. I could see playing a monster that plays on other's fears, as he has far too much knowledge of the various "races" out there, if that makes sense. As he absorbs more races, he learns more of their strengths, their weaknesses, and what makes each of them tick.
Dotting for interest until I hear more about character creation stuffs. :-)
Shadowyfox definately has some of my idea here -- that's an idea of what kind of characters I was thinking of. There would be some strange conventions to address, and I'll field the ones I have heard so far:
Skill points- players would have a certain amount of skill points perhaps related to base intelligence of the body snatching entity (a demon or a ghost being more sentient might get extra while underdark abominations or dark tapestry spookies might get less, but making a point-buy for the basic entity and then using int might be the best way to go. Depending on occupied hosts players might get circumstance bonuses on skills their hosts might have also possessed (they may can to varying degrees access the hosts memories)
Since the players are "possessing" other creatures the "low intelligence" of forms is mitigated by the fact there is a controlling intellect. For fun or balance I might consider bonuses/penalties to skill checks if your host is particularly smart or dumb, but animal intellects would be completely supplanted by the host so there's no concern about possessing a spider, becoming feral, and strutting off to have spider babies. Spell casting, fine manipulation and equipment use could get tricky with different forms... But skill points needn't be so.., some skill USE could get interesting... "Can a mold "sing?" "Can a spider counterfeit with linguistics?" I imagine a lot of strange stuff will arise, but as long as players aren't intentionally trying to break the game it should be more fun even if weird or imbalanced things occur, which I would work in and out of game to navigate.
As far as being "stuck" in a form for a new level, I see potential for a great deal of versatility. Depending on balance concerns and/or the nature of the body-snatcher, changing forms might be as quick as finding another helpless or defeated creature, or an abomination might be able to shift between its original form and other forms its taken - (like the monster in "the thing" ... I would stand on the convention that the player would be VERY vulnerable between bodies and it likely would something only the desperate would try out of complete safety, and likely never dare in combat.
So yeah, a players "snatcher" might animate creatures it incapacitates (or perhaps even kill but live hosts... Ahem.. "Hold together" better. Or some might after being close enough to certain creatures might assume their form, or be incorporeals that hijack bodies if the victims will is subsumed, it can even be something akin to a gonchong/face-hugger creature, that if a creatures is grappled and pinned, the critter attaches to the head, face, spinal column and takes over. All types might have advantages and weaknesses which would be part of the fun of the game. The party could be all one type if beastie or a variety unified in cause, or at least method.
As far as becoming larger creatures, no doubt this would happen, and it could have its own benefits and challenges. I'm the kind of DM that likes to be permissive as long as everyone is having fun and nobody dominate the limelight to the exclusion of others. If it makes things difficult, larger or stranger forms might be difficult to control, the host may become sick or die as a result of it being a poor vehicle, (so you could have fun being in a novel form but it might not last) and of course I'd want the players to all hopefully feel relevant even if they weren't the biggest. Having an ogre might be fun for size and damage, but a creature that webs or paralyzes might have the fast-track to forms or bodies that best serve in many other situations. The ogre or troll might not even fit everywhere, as was said.
This sounds awesome.
My 2cp on how to spin it:
The end game of this I want to BE the BBEG of the world, but I'm not so thrilled with playing a Balor (or whatever) who gets possessed by the spirit of a dire rat (or whatever) that got passed along through some kind of virus, because ... meh.
What I would do instead, rather than having the "soul" or whatever transfer from one beast to the next, have each CR be simply one step up the mega-dungeon's food chain. Then the first encounter of the new level, you gank the monster you were just playing, revealing a deeper level of the evil that lurks beneath us. The campaign isn't about individual characters advancing in power, but is more about peeling back the onion of the mega-dungeon, with the grand arc revealing itself as we players get closer and closer to being the BBEGs.
This all assumes that you don't want characters who level up in an ordinary way. Meh, I'm just throwing thoughts at you.
I'll shut up and let you get your GM on.
It sounds fun.
I'm open to fielding all such ideas, if I had a managable number of players and they all wanted to play the "Qorin" way -- that would certainly establish a chain of conventions and define the game very much in a particular manner. If other people had other ideas, perhaps their character would be a specific entity. It might be easier to have all players be entities or all be playing by "Qorin rules" ... but as this game is going to be pathfinder world/system but not be so conventional -- there may be room to experiment with different stuff. I like your idea though Qorin... the idea of a kind of layer cake -- Ie, on the first level everyone chooses or perhaps assigned a creature and a task to accomplish (Ie, a gnoll and lizardman tribe are at war for control of level 1... and over the course of the first adventure the players must use their creatures to broker a peace or have one tribe defeat the other. Once the problems inherent in Level 1 of the dungeon is settled, we cutaway to CR 2 skeletal champions who are having trouble with bugbears who might use the relative stability on level 1 to expand their territory - into the skeletal champion's tomb areas. The players would all have to choose what kind of creatures they'd want to be and maybe what side they'd be on... and the events of the higher levels might or might not have an impact on lower levels, eventually perhaps peeling back to reveal who is pulling the strings. It's one way to do it I guess, I'd leave the idea on the table to gauge interest -- it might also enable freer participation because without singular attachment to characters/monsters more people could play and advance the story. It certainly has it's merits.
That said, I like the idea of a party of formless demons, evil spirits, blobby abominations and parasitic body-snatchers furthering a collective goal of placing themselves at the deepest level, with all the loot. I'll see who else if anyone chimes in.
As far as playing convention goes, I'd say I would shoot for whatever level is customarily average for successful PbPs in these forums, with perhaps, if there is interest, real-time adventures via chatrooms if schedules allow (if not for all players at once, then whomever catch as catch can... I haven't decided on that, but I do potentially have some flexibility in my schedule for such things if it's fun and worthwhile.
That said, I like the idea of a party of formless demons, evil spirits, blobby abominations and parasitic body-snatchers furthering a collective goal of placing themselves at the deepest level, with all the loot. I'll see who else if anyone chimes in.
Sounds quite interesting to me too. Sounds really unique, all in all, and I'm game for something different, so you've got me all for it.
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This has caught my interest as well. I immidiately envisioned myself as a Gould from the Stargate tv series, a symbiotic/parasitic worm that completely suppressed the identity of the host.
Mechanically, this could work as if we were all Synthesist summoners. Our mental stats are strong and constant as would be skills like diplomacy or Know:x, but our physical stats and capabilities are derived from our "Eidlon" body.
I love this idea! There is a similar campaign I'm in as a PC which seems to have lost the GM. There was a really cool system the GM had implemented where the players are all a breed of tank-grown intellect devourers from space.
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Cool concept!
I like that idea!
I thought this was a stillborn idea, but apparently I was wrong. Not sure of timetable but I may have to take it forward -- after reading up more on synthesist summoners especially. I also find the "we're supposed to be overpowered" heartening... And the idea that if people drop out, the story is not so tied to party composition that they can't be swapped out!
I was slightly discouraged because it seemed this scenario might require too much scaffolding and house rules, but between "persistent mental stats" and "so what if I'm overpowered?" That covers a lot of bases. PLUS, if player builds are stacked to maximize mental stats (that carry to physical form) it will be at the expense of physical prowess when they are out of a host body -- WHICH IS COMPLETELY WITHIN THE THEME!
So, what's the status then? Are we definitely going to start something, or still too early to tell?
I'm interested too.
i am definitely interested.
I am interested as well ^^ Love the concept and hope this gets to happen.
I'm interested. Another Idea is we could play Intellect Devourers especially if they are a mutant group that can possess bodies for longer than usual.
Bump! I know I'm late to the party but I want to do this! PM me if something forms please! :D
I'm hoping it's still going to happen. :-)
Definitely interested.
Ooh, just ran across this thread today ... sounds awesome! Color me interested if it goes anywhere ...
That friggin' tears it -- I wanted to run this thing and I definitely will -- I gauged interest and got some interesting feedback, then sat on my hands for a while (between school and other commitments I really haven't had time to give this PBP the kind of love it deserves -- but I am pretty sure I'm going to start tapping people as prospective players and give people initial instructions/parameters/information for how things roll out.
I will likely buy the PDFs for one or more monster manuals and poll initial prospective players on or around the thanksgiving holiday -- and because I hate it when PBPs die, I may make the game episodic so even if I have to hang it (in whole or in part) during times that school presses, I would, if the idea turns out to be fun, try to either keep something going or do it in a kind of installment until I can really get into it after school ends.
For people who want to play, keep in mind that because this will be an unconventional game, we will be flying by the seat of our pants in certain respects -- house rules on the fly, revision of things that work RAW/RAI but are silly or OP or hyper-complicated. Here are some conventions I'd like prospective players to keep in mind for our (sooner or eventual) kickoff:
1) Expect hyper-cheese or ridiculously complicated rules morasses to either be discouraged,
2) If I can handle it, I'm going to mock up people's characters in Herolab so that I can get it to do as much of the heavy lifting simulating combat as possible. I'll ask players (especially when they adopt new forms) to give me parameters for how they'd like their character to behave in combat, and how if at all they cooperate with other players. (e.g.: "I want to support as best I can, since I'm a giant spider, I'd like to hang back and web, drop on unsuspecting engaged enemies, and generally try to be opportunistic without sticking my neck out." or "I'm a friggin' Hobgoblin. When I'm not trying to stir up trouble and support from the local hobgoblin tribe, I'm a front-line-fighter." -- I will attempt to simulate battles in the spirit of the people playing, and relate how battles unfold in a narrative that relates the fight in an interesting manner. If too much hangs in the balance, or it's otherwise a big deal, I may PM or halt action to ask players to elucidate exactly what they want to do, but I expect most fights to be simmed and narrarated according to player instruction.
3) If some people are REALLY into it, I may set up established times (Pacific zone) to do mini-adventures in a chat client. Even if it is one player, it might be fun potentially -- and it could be a good way to get more involved people accomplishing more together. The bodysnatchers communicating and hatching plans together can be as important as carrying forward of the plans themselves...
4) Individual players will either opt to team up with other bodysnatchers in a party, or operate according to their own whims, motivations and plans (which hopefully don't conflict overmuch, but perhaps that could become part of the fun as well) -- For example:
"Mendicant, Phelot, Fetch and I are all in a party now. We've all decided to descend deeper into the garbage-warrens, looking for trouble and asserting our dominance there." or "We've been partied all week, no reason why we shouldn't stay so -- We're thinking of starting exploration of the market district of that sunken city we found."
Conversely, individual players (especially the more active ones) can operate clandestinely -- advancing their aims waiting for enough people to back them in a party effort... (e.g.: I'm nowhere near the other party at the moment and this orc body I'm occupying is almost dead... I'm going to slip out of this walking corpse and try to possess one of the higher-status goblins from that tribe my orc was causing friction with. Once I can occupy an influential goblin, I'll begin using what I know about the orc tribe to turn their tensions into an outright war -- hopefully taking power of whatever weakened faction remains... until the party can come back to finish them off or enslave them. If it gets too risky or I'm discovered, I'm going to dump my form, try to possess a shark, and explore that underground lake Phelot found -- anybody want to go on an underwater adventure?!" -- you get the idea. Players will say who they are working with, and when the game is moving slowly, what their singular goals are (if they care to take the risk of clandestine actions.)
That's basically how I envision the game unfolding. I didn't want to come out of the blue and post TOO much, but I am starting to form an idea of a backstory and rules for starting characters. I can elaborate if people are interested, and also can think about revising if certain ideas are unpopular. Right now here are some of the most salient ones:
-The game, as I said, will be played fast and loose. If things do get Overpowered but it is still fun (for most players AND GM) I may just let it ride. But my ideas for starting a character are thus:
*15 point buy (Low, BUT YOU CAN POTENTIALLY infest/possess/hijack any other form that is your CR -- CR will start at 1, and players can generally only hijack existing monsters of equal or lower CR (though under certain circumstances slightly higher CR might be possessed, but this will have drawbacks (either the form will deteriorate quickly, or it will be painful/risky to inhabit, or may require more than one hijacker, or special circumstances.)
*The original forms players have are weak and vulnerable BY DESIGN -- you don't want to be caught without a host. If your host dies, you're either in big trouble, fleeing to find another victim to hijack, or you're already dead. I will likely require or encourage one or more dump stats to reflect the relative weakness of the bodysnatcher forms, but these dump stats will be replaced by the baseline stats of their hosts when they are hijacking, and some or all of their stats that are considerably higher than the host in their profile may carry over even onto the host form. Ie, "Fetch" has a 3 CON and a 4 WIS -- but his STR and INT are respectively high. His host form will have none of his weaknesses, but may have his strengths -- if his host dies he better not have to make a will save and he'd probably be crushed like a bug given his base hitpoints. This will likely not get much better even as players increase in CR, to keep emphasis on the hosts players must hunt/trick/occupy.
*I may, if players are interested, come up with some custom rules for character creation, or leave things nebulous if people aren't really into that aspect. My ideas so far are to give players a choice of the KIND of bodysnatcher they are, which may give them special advantages, weaknesses, and ways of securing hosts. Here are some examples:
Spirit -- hijacker form is like a disembodied ghost, light, or demon, with little or no ability to act on the world outside of a host. Advantages may be harder to spot/harm/kill once ejected from a host, but may need to consistently pass will saves to keep from being exorcised. The spirit may be even come back in circumstances where other hijackers are killed for good -- but it's never much fun to be a disembodied voice trying to trick creatures into "letting you in"... and if you don't find a host fast enough your voice may rapidly wane into nothing...
Abberation - who knows what this fleshy mass covered in eyeballs and mouths is, but it's on that ogre's neck and it's manipulating him like a godforsaken marionette. Abberations unlike some other hijackers are usually (or always) on the outside of the host, so can be attacked by those smart enough or intuitive enough to do so. They however may be hardier than other hijacker forms, or at least have fewer weaknesses. If hurt enough in combat, they may opt to detach and run for it. Perhaps, an Abberation is the ONLY form of hijacker that is formidable outside a host, at least in the short-term.
"The Thing" -- This Hijacker, like the movie-monster of it's namesake, doesn't occupy hosts as much as copy them. It is exceedingly vulnerable to certain forms of attack (perhaps fire?) and also when it is changing forms or it's current form is incapacitated. However, it may be able to turn into any type of creature it has previously copied -- so it doesn't need to depend on finding new forms or being caught at a disadvantage as much as when other player's host forms die. "I'm a dire boar AGAIN."
Parasite -- this thing is a bug that like the abberation usually clings to the outside of the host, but it can disguise or stealth itself to look like a crown, or a piece of armor, a bony ridge, what-have-you -- which may help it stay hidden and safe even if it's host dies... one may even be lucky enough to be worn by the killer of your original form? However, the parasite is not nearly as hardy as the abberation, and is perhaps the most easily squished if it is discovered for what it is...
Slime -- What it says on the tin. May cover hosts, or be ingested, bodysnatching slime may have distinct and profound weaknesses and resistances, which potentially change over time. It may be harder to kill outside a host, or have an easier time hijacking bodies than others -- but it's toxic nature kills host bodies faster than any other hijacker, so it will need that advantage.
Germ -- The player is the established consciousness of a collective of fungus, virus, micro-organisms that in concert, form a singular evil being. The germ is insideous, highly infective, and constantly mutating. What hurts it one day may do nothing the next, and previous immunities may be discovered lethal vulnerabilities the day after. It's hard to kill the entire germ, as the smallest part in the right environment will grow back to sentience-bearing volumes... but don't THINK you'll last a second if a cleric casts Cure Disease on you. Germs, because of their collective nature, may have advantages over other hijackers when it comes to using swarms as hosts -- possibly occupying several swarms at once, or forming horrible hybrid swarms with the shared abilities of various different creatures in a single mass...
(I can understand why some people might like ideas like this, but I can also understand that some people might feel that if a mechanic is too far outside established bounds for some to feel like we are still playing a pathfinder game. I will endeavor to accommodate the most interested and faithful players, and beyond the wacky concept do my best to keep things "Golarion."
As far as a backstory, I'm going to leave it mostly true sandbox -- Players explore, I will keep expanding the world and adding new environments, Mega-dungeon style and the story may be as colorful or drab as the players motivations and goals -- hopefully growing from localized hack and slash into reigns of terror, hex-by-hex enslavement of entire areas or levels of dungeon, Stripping areas of life, that sort of stuff.
Couple things to keep in mind -- There will be little or NO surface dwelling in this game -- holes or cracks leading to the surface are EXTREME HAZARDS. Sunlight BAD, Moonlight barely if even tolerable. This should be an epic of unseen horrors the likes of which civilizations on the surface never dreamed -- adventurers MIGHT encounter the players, but it's equally possible a player will never see a single human, elf, or gnome for the entire campaign. Maybe. Going to the surface is something that if done, will almost certainly result in the quick or instant death of the character. My current mechanic for this is that the PCs -- the bodysnatchers, are actually unique, but weakened entities from the Dark Tapestry. Their existence on this plane is such an offense to nature and the gods that for the sun to fall upon them above ground they would be annihilated, perhaps explosively, as their horrific nature cancels out the natural order like a matter/antimatter reaction. To be seen by the gods of law and good (or by the naked eye of their agents) may be enough to violently rip them from the plane. You get the picture. Run and hide if you're short a host, and avoid such situations. The default backstory is that the players (however many there are) are all such beings slipping into this world through a horrible dark tapestry artifact known only as "The Red Cathexis" -- which if destroyed ends the campaign for EVERYONE. Hiding and protecting the Cathexis should be an early and often updated objective, especially as it may grow in size, vulnerability, or discoverability as players grow in number and power. Eventually a main objective of the campaign might be finding someplace dark and horrible enough to hide the Cathexis from it's enemies -- The players delving ever deeper into the underdark to hide it, find host creatures strong enough to protect it, and ultimately establish the players at the top of the dungeon food chain... forever.
(players who don't like this origin story MAY be given leeway for the backstory of their character -- I don't like dictating who or what my players choose to be (if I did would I have a crazy idea like this?)
Stuff like that is on my mind. Any of this stuff seem particularly interesting (or not?) Any of this conflict with what you perceive is typical of a successful/conventional PBP?
This WAS a wall of text -- but hopefully the subject matter is worth at least a skim. Thanks for your interest. Feel free to tap me about any of the above, and I'll start soliciting specs during the Thanksgiving holiday, when hopefully several people have time to start strong.
People who already have character concepts, origin stories, ideas/goals/plot-seeds for their characters (or have their own ideas they'd like to run by me or questions about char. generation) -- feel free to post in this thread or PM me if you prefer. I'll be checking back semi-regularly hereforward until we can officially begin.
THANK YOU EVERYONE WHO HAS SHOWN SOME INTEREST!!
Sincerely,
-Vicon, drooling vortex of the Red Cathexis, Ripper of the Tapestries, The eye, the lie, and the gate!
(Clarification)
On point "1" it should read: Expect hyper-cheese or ridiculously complicated rules morasses to either be discouraged, expect completely ridiculous unforseen rule synergy potentially be reeled in, if somehow one player figures out how to roll buckets of dice with stratospheric bonuses to the detriment of other participants, we may have a talk. That said, sometimes silly or over-the-top can be just fine and there may be plenty of opportunity for that here.
Also, if the idea of particular hijacker-player forms is frowned upon, deemed silly, overcomplicated, or un-fun for starting (or the majority) of players, I may opt for bodysnatchers to be amorphous nasties (or how they are described is up to the player) and just give people a point build, number of starting skill points, and some parameters and not sweat all that additional stuff. People who think one type of hijacker form is better than the others, voice your concerns before the game starts or choose that type of form and don't brag. This type of game is bound to, by nature of it sweeping into completely unknown territory, cause balance issues and unforseen snafus. We'd do our best to navigate them.
It sounds super interesting, and allows for a neat degree of role altering that most games don't. For instance, "I'm tired of being the skill monkey, I want to be a front line fighter." "Oh I'll try being the skill monkey, but someone else will have to heal." Etc. And that could change every single level, or at any time, really.
The only concerns I have are that:
1) It kind of takes away the normal character progression, not just as a class but as a character. One could make the case that your parasite's personality is the same through your characters (potentially getting you into trouble at times) or go for a Dr Who approach of it changing on regeneration, but either way it feels like it might lose some of the roleplay.
2) As gaining experience slows down as you gain levels, you could end up being stuck for a long time in a form that you really don't like simply because you made a quick / poor decision. Certainly in Pathfinder you can already take something wrong (feat, spell, etc), but you usually have other things to fall back on.
3) Size. Obviously as the GM you could plan for things, but some of the creatures can get pretty big, which can complicate combat and even traveling through places.
That said, this is something different, which I always try to encourage, and sounds like with the right group that it would be an absolute blast.
Malyas' Shield
Actually I'm curious what would happen with skills in general. A lot of monsters are statted with low intelligence, which they presumably wouldn't have when imbued with a parasitic creature / spirit?
____________
Since I'm here and excited about people's potential interest I'll tackle these questions straight away:
1) You are assumed to have a consistent personality across forms, but players have freedom and flexibility with this. Perhaps your character adopts some of potential personality range or instinct of it's host, or as alien as it is can emulate analagous behavior (ie: "My internal dialogue is nothing more than an ominous extra-dimensional sucking noise, but my victims would never guess that. I'm actually quite charming -- see my mating dance? That Phase spider can't resist me! (SCHLURP!)
2) This is a great example of how stuff that everyone can agree is a drag or bogs the game down can be ameliorated. If players feel they are progressing too slow (or too fast, which might be equally troubling) we can discuss it. These are NOT normal PCs, so they don't necc. need normal character progression. I am thinking that perhaps achieving a certain level of success or dominance on a particular dungeon level or area will allow players to go deeper or take higher CR forms. Perhaps certain objectives need to be accomplished that allow a player or party to level. Perhaps there could be ebb and flow with relation to proximity (or distance) to the Cathexis, or how alien a new environment is -- Ie, you may be 4 CR, but if the Cathexis is threatened you can be CR 5 or even higher for a short period of time. Or we've played long enough for you to be CR 6, but the campaign has taken you FAR from the Cathexis, so the adventure here takes you back to good ol' CR 4 forms. Perhaps Everyone wants to mix it up and play an adventure in a lightless abyssal dungeon-ocean. It won't do perhaps to just start as master of this strange new environment, what's the fun in exploring that? Instead you might start as relatively weak new aquatic forms -- (but your progression is still maintained, and I would mitigate risk to higher CR hijackers in weaker forms... I don't expect people who worked to CR 8 to risk everything inhabiting a CR 2 Poisonous Angler fish... we can work those details out. Death can and will be a serious issue, and may happen often -- but there is latitude in these situations. As I've said above, the host dying is no guarantee the hijacker will die -- and in some cases even a PC knocked to -CON can come back (if they've made their bones and their return is more valuable to the game than the merits of keeping death scary. We'll see.
3) I've been thinking about size. Most or all hijackers can and often do change hosts, so to travel in some areas this could be a necessity -- such are the logistical concerns of a body-snatching horror. Size of hijacker forms may start very small, but could increase or decrease under certain situations -- host sizes should remain constant. Being small or tiny could be very helpful if players without hosts are as vulnerable as one expects, but the bonuses to stealth and such might actually make this an advantage. But yeah -- Large, Huge, and Colossal creatures may not fit in the overhead bin. Expect to either use a carry-on bag for these situations, or you could spend a lot of time in Steerage. That said, dungeons are not all cramped affairs. There could be trackless expanses of open caverns, broad fungal plains, immense crystal forests -- open stomping grounds for bigger baddies, of which you may hunt or be hunted by creatures of grander scale.
As for Skill points and intelligence, I am thinking players start with a flat number of skill points, perhaps with additional points granted for higher starting INT. Depending on how things work out, I may develop house rules to keep things fun or freer if projecting a base profile over a monster form is somehow stifling. It may actually be freeing, as players seek forms with skills or abilities suitable to what they want to do, or just be a mechanic of the game... if you want to climb or intimidate, find a monster that has that in their profile and try to hijack it. Players should tell me what kind of creatures they want to be or like to see in games so I can make them part of ecosystems -- getting the form you want can be a goal in itself.
That said, certain skills are going to be pretty interesting or important in different ways from a regular game. For example, Disguise may be VERY important for keeping your hijacking form potentially hidden, Bluff may be very important when trying to convince other creatures you are indeed the same type of creature as them (e.g.: "HI. I AM ORRRRRRRC. I NOT VERY CONVINCING AND I SWEAT THE SHADOWS OF A BLEEDING VOID." or "The other giant spiders you are nesting with see you as another spider, but they know something is wrong, is off, and they rush to attack you." (not very high bluff -- some forms might even need a successful bluff check before they can try something like diplomacy effectively. For players without hosts, stealth may be extremely important to spring on or attach to hosts unawares.
I've said a mouthful, but there is an easy solution if you are concerned, Yorick -- as I've stated above, hijackers with particularly high scores in an attribute may transfer to the host body, creating interesting synergies. If you are worried about so many monsters having low INT, and you decide to play, make INT your highest stat, and concern yourself with the complexities of acquiring teeny-tiny reading glasses for your rat swarm host, so you can read ancient texts when you are not boiling out of grates and eating hapless humanoids. :D
Things like Roleplaying your dump-stats will be an important element of being outside of a host. If you dump INT, you may only be capable of complex thought when you are occupying an intelligent host, and players may need to (heck, may WANT to) revert and roleplay as a creature of instinct until they can highjack a body that enables them higher thought processes.
I love this idea! There is a similar campaign I'm in as a PC which seems to have lost the GM. There was a really cool system the GM had implemented where the players are all a breed of tank-grown intellect devourers from space.
Was this game on or in any way discussed in this forum, and if so -- can you tell me where to find it so I can learn from that experience/mistakes/etc? Perhaps I can determine through observation or contacting the GM how or why the game lost steam!
I don't expect you to deliver, but any info could be helpful, and speeds realization of the game.
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(This is Frogfoot's recruitment threads avatar.)
Cool, glad to see you pick this up again Vicon. Here are my initial thoughts based on what I've read:
Might make a bodysnatcher who is the long-dead spirit of an ancient warlord. He was backstabbed by his Lieutenant ages ago in the height of his military conquests, and such was his arrogance that he was unable to move on from the Material Plane. He feels that he was unjustly robbed of a long life full of military glory. As a result, he is drawn to those who display great martial prowess, especially those who were like him in life - confident, greedy, and casually cruel. He possesses them so that he may one day rebuild his ancient armies and conquer the world through his puppeted host.
Mechanically I'll be making him a Hungry Ghost Monk - and he's the Hungry Ghost.
Very cool concept/backstory -- though I imagine this campaign will be monster/host centric more than class-centric. I envision abilities and most feats to come from a hosts form or a creature's nature than from class levels (unless the class levels are an aspect of the host) -- this prevents for example a ghost monk from arguably having the knowledge/abilities of say... a complementary additional class and leading to giant morasses like why you have all of a monsters feats and abilities, your own class abilities, the class abilities... see where I'm going? (as if the ability to take over and change hosts as well as the type of your hijacker isn't a strong enough start!)
That said, the backstory is still very viable for the type of character that could thrive in this campaign. With your consent, we could make it a part of the story that the fatigue between the dark tapestry and the material plane caused by the Cathexis finally empowered your disembodied spirit to start possessing creatures and pursuing those goals of yours once more. :D
As you can see, a game like this is really going to stretch conventions. Just the idea that level is being supplanted largely by CR plays havoc with ideas like class progression for a hungry ghost monk. if most prospective players are in love with (or at least like) the idea of consistent classes, I'll meditate on how archtypes+classes mesh (or don't) with the game. but honestly I see it being far more centered on changing (or static) monster templates and less with class progression. It expect it will be 4x more complicated to try to do both, and I see the vast number of PBPs running out of steam because people get tired of crunching all the numbers, or GMs run out of steam. As such, I may try to keep certain things simple.
Let me know if any of this jibes with you.
Gotcha, that makes a lot of sense. Totally cool with keeping the backstory but merely switching monster types as needs demand. Your addition is great too. I'll be watching this thread closely.
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I'm glad to see this is up and moving again. :D
I like what you have to say, and agree with your anaylasis of class/CR getting messy. We should probably think of ourselves (the snatchers) more like a mobile, paracitic template.
My concept is that of a spirit contained within a perfect gem. High bluff and disguise combined with an Alter Self-ish ability and minor telepathy will allow me to disguise myself as whatever the thing I'm trying to catch most desires. As soon as they pick me up, they're mine, and their puny minds can only scream in the background of my dark thoughts as I violently probe their memories in order to imitate behavior, use feats, etc.
the drawback? I'm completely immobile outside my host. No Str, no Dex. Maybe I can gain limited movement as I gain power, but starting off as zilch. Completely stranded. Second drawback is that my violent probing slowly degrades my host's mind, forcing a switch after X amount of time.
That's badass, Choon. Making a character concept out of magic jar? Perfection.
I agree. A character like this is definitely in the spirit of the game. Good luck finding a PC trusting enough to pick you up and carry you in a pinch, though. ;D
Overall, a VERY cool concept with Solo and team RP potential... and, a novel riff on, as USF says, some existing and cherished tropes. (Magic Jar, "Needful things", and a certain precious ring we've all read about immediately spring to mind.)
Keep in mind however that interesting plot twists may arise from other beings coveting you as well. This may serve your purposes at times, but it may also potentially shake things up.
Yeah, it's going to be odd thinking through the One Ring's perspective...Choon LOVES it the more conflict there is over who gets to hold him! The more competition, the stronger the eventual thrall.
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Vicon, How do you want to manage things like my ability to shift my form? Should that cost something, or be fluff? I'm kinda thinking fluff with a general "takeover ability" = CR+key ability or something like that? Maybe give the target an opposed save (will for me, fort for a disease, reflex for an attachment?)
Just spit-balling. Maybe the Will save for my fascination (attraction to the shiney thing) with no save once touched?
Should that even be mechanically described? or am I just asking for one of those rules morasses described above?
So glad you asked. In your case I don't think much of what you want to do is outside the scope of the orison "prestidigitation" relating to changing your appearance, and may even be more freeing. - you are basically a gem, and can use this (very) low level magical ability used as freely and often as desired, to change color, temperature, faintly glow, hide or reveal yourself in dirty water or clothing, and as long as the gem is part of the construction, you can appear as a wide variety of jewelry, small objects, and tools.., or just the gem when you want to go "naked"... Within the parameters of the spell there is wide reign cosmetically, as long as nothing you appear as FUNCTIONS as a tool you emulate, and no prestige effect rises to the level of a level one spell, at least not at first.
As far as successfully hijacking, I already have stuff to post about that, which I'll share when I've got at least four people with interest and char concepts. Put loosely I'll say two things (right after I get off my mobile)
The two things I'll say about Hijacking right now, are thus:
1) I am one of those GMs who cringes whenever I see "no save" -- I'm all for giving big circumstance bonuses to a check rewarding creativity, or other form of elegance, and I understand the necessity of "no save" used where it must, but seek solace in the idea that even though I might be very reticent to enable to player to do things "no save" I am equally reticent in situations where it would be heavy-handed to do that to a player.
2) You're barking up the right tree with fort/ref/will saves -- but I'm thinking until sufficient instances establish hard and fast rules, I'm swinging this fast and loose. To begin with at least hijacking could potentially occur in a variety of situations... and the reason I want to start more free is because since I am requiring dump-stats, I don't want anybody's character to come out of the gate gimped because the stats they dump in their character vision don't mesh with out of the gate mechanics for hijacking. Forcing a failed save is great, but I'd also accept STR-dependent characters attempting hijacking as a result of successful pins, or even prolonged grapples, or rendering helpless,
or high CHA players might be able to hijack with sufficient Bluff (Tricking them into allowing their subversion), Intimidate (WORSHIP ME AND I MAY YET BE MERCIFUL, MEAT PUPPET, THEN AGAIN MAYBE NOT!), or even Diplomacy : "You know in your own heart that the only way you will unite the tribes is if you use me. Would it be too much a price to pay if I used you in turn?" Even disable device to encompass working a way through a join in armor, or perception to find a weak spot (was enough to punch Smaug's ticket, no?) can be the basis for hijacking a creature. Just keep in mind that in the context of the narrative, powerful or desired hosts are precious -- I won't make it easy and it will likely only get harder. A spirit may seek much solace in knowing there is always a skeleton to inhabit somewhere, but exotic and powerful creatures have exotic and powerful defenses.
(bottom line, case by case to begin with, refining as time goes on)
Hope that helps!
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I'm so glad that this is moving forward! I'd love to play something similar to a Yeerk from the Animorphs series. Basically a tiny worm/slug thing that slithers into a creature's ear and attaches to its brain. From there, it's essentially doing the puppeteer thing.
Mechanically, I'm thinking INT and WIS-based. Low STR/DEX/CON (I'm a freakin' slug). Slow movement speed. I'd have high stealth and maybe some kind of fascinate ability to keep prospective victims immobilized until I can attach myself. I'd guess once I'm in, there'd be a Will save to overcome my mind/body control, and probably some sort of Heal check to dislodge me. Sound cool?
Very cool concept and definitely under the purview of what I had in mind. Your small size modifiers to stealth could help a lot towards letting you sneak through defenses and/or undetected so you could latch on.
Fascinating/immobilizing things as an inherent ability I'm definitely thinking about, but assigning powers that are not already clearly defined as a power or spell effect is a slippery slope, especially for a character just starting out. Most CR 1 creatures shouldn't be too hard to overwhelm the will of, but a fascinate power (especially one not clearly defined) could become a drag or OP later in progression if you enjoy and decide to stay.) For now, I would consider your major drawback how vulnerable and squishable you are should you be detected without a host, and advantages being that you can hijack in numerous ways potentially:
1) As you described, if you can attach to or in proximity of the brain, you can force a will save that grants you control.
2) You can infest the host like many parasites of this type in nature, forcing a Fort save or they succumb to you like a disease -- this may take longer than the WILL method (lets say you have to spin a cocoon in their ear/skull in this manner, or something similarly grotesque) but may broaden your potential victims, or,
3) Since you crawl into creatures ears, what you say when you're in there can be pretty persuasive, and if you can get a creature to believe (through Intimidate, "I'm already here, meat... get used to it or things are going to get worse.", Bluff: "I'm the voice of your ancestors! join with me and I will make you as the heroes of old!" or Diplomacy: "I realize teaming up with a parasite in your head is a hard sell, but there's no disputing you sense my power... oh? You're on board? GOOD, BECAUSE NOW YOU'RE RIDING SHOTGUN IN YOUR OWN MIND... UNTIL I KILL YOU."
Stuff like that. I also like your weaknesses -- in battle you're likely not going to be able to flee your host quickly (and may even have to wait until after combat win or lose for the coast to be clear to slink away) and your nature doesn't seem to lend itself to quick switching of hosts (though investing in escape artist may actually make this more feasible and dramatic, as you break out of an old host's forehead like friggin' houdini and perhaps try to arc towards the ear of the foe your host is dropping in front of) -- keep in mind that extra-planar creatures with high CHA (if you choose to have that) will have a strong presence, and not always be able to hide that. INT/WIS does sound safer, as a worm that "psychically" glows like a Christmas tree might have a rough time sneaking up on or hiding from certain types of foes/prey.
Hope this gets you further on your way should you decide you play!