Horrors of the Red Cathexis!

Game Master Vicon

For my part, can anybody cite where in the rules (preferably online so I can direct others to it as well) what the point buy scale is relating to stats below 7? I'm wracking my brains to find something, and while i know conventional pathfinder forbids starting a stat below 7 (before modifiers) I think for reasons explained being able to do this as part of point-buy generation is very important. Am I missing something glaringly obvious in the books? Is a reliable online reference out there and I'm just missing it?

No, I don't think you're missing anything - it's simply not something that the original game designers appear to have thought of doing. I think you're free to assign stat values as you see fit in this case.

Another fun idea I had for a parasite form: a plant-type parasite who infests their host via spores ejected from the previous host's body. The unsuspecting host happens upon a flower - sniffs it for the fragrance (CHA based parasite?) and breathes in spores that later attack their very free will through their bloodstream. When the plant is ready to move on (maybe the spores have a degenerative effect on the host over time?) the host forcefully holds down another victim and breathes a cloud of spores into their mouth, before going inert.

I think the point-buy still uses the same formula. 7 gives you +4pts, 6 gives you +6pts, 5 gives you +9pts, etc. Could be wrong, though, as I've never seen an official formula.

Oh, and I'm definitely in for the long haul here; been interested since you put up the original interest check. :-) For my parasite, I'd thought something like the fascinate bardic performance (10 + 1/2 level + mental stat mod, use 3 + stat mod rounds per day). Not necessary though, as - like you said, I'll have high Stealth and Wisdom. CHA is kind of hard to pin down. On the one hand, I should be easy to overlook (I'm a slug, after all). On the other hand, Disguise and the social skills are CHA-based.

*Holds up pseudopod*

So..some sort of controlling slime? Aka 'Venom' is a possible idea? There are also the established 'Mind Slaver Mold' in Bestiary 4...

Just some other thoughts.

Much cheers to all.

I beseeched the forum and found Solid math on dumping below 7. I'll post a table to illustrate tonight, but it is basically the cost of the attribute bonus for a point in a stat. The point is, it's doable. Lowest starting stat is 1, as lower implies you are dead or sessile. Still, such spreads may be true to the concept, weak brainiacs piggy-backing on strong forms, or even instinct-driven ferocious beasts requiring hosts for higher thought process.

Str and Dex of 1 for me then. I can vibrate and bounce a little on my own, but not much else. Land speed of 5'/min or something. :P

I also need to get thinking about a suitably grand name. All BBEG's who are weak physically compensate with impressive sounding and nearly impronounceable names.
Narthubrax, Pelegrion, Ashurbanapul, Abraxas, Quexicathix?
"My name cannot be comprehended outside the Void of the Tapestry, but you may call me STEVE!"

Just go with "The Precious." Or is that not grandiose enough? ;-)

I'll probably have around STR 1, DEX 2-3, 5ft-10ft move speed. Just need a lovely sluglike name....

I was thinking of something very small, quick like a tiny bit of shadow. It would be weak, low STR and low Con, but quick and sneaky. Possessing others through their shadows, or darkness. Was even debating about acting more like the conscious and just whispering corrupting thoughts to the current host.

I think when I'm in my incorporeal ghost form, I won't be able to maintain my solid thought processes. It's as if the greater part of my soul, and sanity, has already moved into the Beyond. But when I am able to take physical form, inhabiting the form of another, my thoughts grow clearer again, I'm able to think and reason and plan.

Thus, wanting to avoid being in my pure parasitic form takes on a new, sharper edge - for I fear death, I fear the loss of sanity of a ghostly existence. It fuels my hunger for a vessel.

Looks like nobody wants to take on the brute route. :P

By the way, I think you don't have to drop a stat to 1 like me. A "dump stat" could be 7, if I'm understanding correctly. Dumping to 1 just fit my concept handily. I'm not doing it to munchkin anything.

My impetus for a vessel, though I would never admit this, is loneliness. I was once a ruler of the Tapestry, but was overthrown and turned into this. I have been trapped in my perfect gem with only myself to talk to for ages. Eons maybe. I fear solitude, and seek to control beings who either are members of communities, or rule some group of people. I will avoid controlling lone-wolf beasts if at all avoidable.

As far as the gem, I imagine it being Diminutive at largest. About 1-1.5 inches across. About the size of the hollow of your hand. Easy to pick up, store, hide, set in a necklace, embed in a weapon, etc. Maybe later I can gain greater self-altering powers and change my actual size to fit my 'client'.

Actually Choon, the brute route is basically what my character concept was going to be. Whatever monster I inhabit will have fantastic martial combat skills, or else it wouldn't attract my ghostly attention in the first place. I'll be able to think more clearly in mortal form, but my motivations will still very much be about military conquest and rule.

Or do you mean "brute route" as in a brutish kind of parasite? That's an interesting concept actually...something big and strong but missing something vital that it must inhabit something else to get...

Well I want to seem more like a shadow on the wall. Low strength and con makes sense, I doubt I'll go as low as 1 but I'll likely go lower than 7 for those two. I just like the thought of a fast, agile character that can't do much of anything physical but move and dodge, even hide without a host.

And the brute could be a parasite that latches on to someone? Perhaps with a bite or such? and maybe it's not that smart, but it's too small to do much of anything without a host?

I was referring to a parasite that focused on the physical attributes, but required a host for coherent thought (dumped mental stats). I see now that you've kinda done this; though I got the impression that you were physically weak for some reason. Maybe I assumed that because you said ghost.

Yeah, I don't know if a physically imposing ghost is even possible or makes sense, that's just the idea I had for him - he's a warlord, I was thinking that his method of possession might be to chase down or haunt a warrior and demand combat until they acquiesce, then overpower them in combat with my instinctive tactical acumen - not tied to my ability to actually think clearly - and possess them that way.

I might have to rework the character concept a bit though. I'm definitely just sharing what's going through my brain without refining it very much.

An alien brain parasite a` la Alien Swarm might be funny too. This is a fun campaign concept.

I'm blathering on mostly unfiltered as well. I figure my thoughts might help iron this thing out, but I may just be muddying things. :P

Elsewhere in the forum I got this guideline (which is reliable) for doing a point buy with extreme dump stats.

10 = +0 = 0 points
11 = +0, but has to cost 1 point for balance reasons
9 = -1, so +1 point
8 = -1, so +1 point, cumulative is +2
7 = -2, so +2 points, +4 cumulative.
6 = -2, so another +2 points, cumulative +6
5 = -3, so +3 points, total +9
4 = -3, so +3, total +12
3 = -4, so +4, total +16
2 = -4, so +4, total +20
1 = -5, so +5, total +25

Fielding further inquiry and input, I think things are starting to show potential to shape up nicely.

Got a little confused by USF's remarks about being a worm and/with a spirit form? If its going to be a part of your character I hope we can come to a full understanding of what your hijacker might be. At present, being a Spirit hijacker is one thing, being a worm-parasite is another -- so pardon my bit of confusion.

The idea of a plant-parasite is worth hashing out if somebody likes the concept and wants to use it... it's very much in line with my idea of the "Germ" hijacker type (fungus, virus, micro-organisms) -- the flower or plant is just a way of delivering the spores or what have you. Reminds me very much of Cordyceps fungi -- it's spores fall on ants, it takes control of them and makes them climb tall grass and attach above an anthill and hang there until they die, the fungus grows in the host, until the ant bursts and more spores fall on the ants below. So yeah, plant hijacker is viable idea.

The idea of a shadow is very nice as well -- the idea of hiding in the wake of victims or your surroundings, invading the victim's shadow and when successful, supplanting the will of the being it is a reflection of. We can hash out how you envision your hijacking takes place, and it may lend itself to some interesting drawbacks and advantages. A hijacker like this sounds like under certain circumstances (which may be extremely limited starting out) could change hosts very quickly under the right circumstances, perhaps even changing hosts during combat more easily than other parasites. Or if not during combat, at least more often on the fly. (Think of infiltrating a compound not just by sneaking around, but by changing from host to host, shadow to shadow, stealing forms or individuals of progressively higher authority, or say, to seek an individuals that are ignored or allowed to wander with impunity (that officer that does rounds, the cook or servant that is of low status, but has clearance everywhere) you get the idea. Potential weaknesses could involve sudden bright lights (the almost complete absence of the host's shadow could break your bond, or threaten your lightless nature, likewise complete darkness, while great to hide in, muddles the boundary between your host and a distinct shadow, which could likewise weaken or break your host-bond, as you ARE darkness, you thin and dissolve somewhat without at least SOME light source to make your "shadow" distinct. As a glass of water becomes lost in an ocean, a shadow must be sure it does not become lost in absolute darkness -- it needs some light as part of it's nature. Absolute darkness might not kill a shadow-esque hijacker, but it has potential to create complexity or potentially (especially at higher levels) advantages ... "e.g: "I leave my host and lose myself in the larger areas of darkness in this vicinity -- what can I learn about this area of the dungeon? Do I discover anything special?" -- You might also make as part of your hijacking routine tricking creatures into creating a more distinct shadow of themselves to inhabit -- ie, whispering to them that they really should make a campfire, or light a lantern... then POW... you've got 'em. Far from me to tell you how to do it, but that's imagry that springs to mind, and ideas like these lend themselves to circumstance bonuses. :D

And like Choon says, I had already considered the idea of the "Brute" route -- not in the sense that you hijack a brute form and project your evil genius on to it, but rather the opposite -- picture a beastial, feral thing that hijacks thinking forms and uses their mental abilities, It's how I envisioned the "aberration" I described, to work -- think of it as a Hyde looking for it's Dr. Jekyll.

I am also officially going to bone up on learning about synthesist summoners. If this class basically does the same thing as what I have in mind, that might be a very easy way to streamline how a lot of this will work. (but instead of Eidolons, host creatures) I'll mention to what degree if any I'll run with that.

I like the reflavoring of synthesist summoners idea, but there are a few issues we would have to consider and find answers for.

For one, eidolons - as awesome as they are - are far more limited in scope than simply using beasts from the Bestiary. The upside of this is that it's easier to keep PCs balanced against one another.

The other limiting factor might be how tightly we cling to the summoner class. All of us having the same spell list, for example, might not be good. Also, summoners are designed to be vulnerable when sleeping, because the eidolon gets dismissed to its home plane when the summoner is unconscious. We would have to resolve that problem when we're re-flavoring the class, because obviously we wouldn't want to ever leave our hosts, much less every time we want to sleep.

I wasn't really going for the alien swarm parasite thing, Vicon, I was just saying it's a cool concept. Probably not what I want to go with.

Another cool idea - maybe for Kana's shadow idea? - is a parasite demon who lives in dreams, like Freddy Krueger. You'd haunt your victim, giving them nightmares that are actually your creations, until you destroy their mind from within as they sleep. Then they wake up, and their mind is gone - replaced with yours, as you look out from their eyes.

Another idea could be a mortal ally. A strange old gypsy woman who lures young warriors to their deaths by luring them to a seance before summoning my spirit to possess them.

You picked up very much along the lines of I picture the shadow working. Wanted to possibly have it be a bit of the little voice in the back of their head. I'm thinking the only way that I, the shadow, could manipulate physical objects would likely be through a host. Attaching to the shadow is a marvelous idea. That would mean my host would need to have some sort of shadow for me to even attach to them.

As for the "Brute" route, I could see a tick/spider-like creature that is more physical stat based, latching onto it's victims with a bite. It might be strong but it's small, and a host has all sorts of advantages. Possibly even a food supply. Not something I plan on playing, so someone is welcome to use my ideas about it if they want.

@Undead Forum Slave I like that idea. Torment them with nightmares. Break the mind.

Under that point but table, I would be working with a 65 point buy for my other 4 stats...
That would be 3 18's and a 17 with one point left. I might have to buy over 18 just to maintain some semblance of balance. :P

Yeah, my parasite would have minimal STR, CON, and CHA, so I'd be looking at a massive point buy as well. High DEX (for the Stealth bonus) and INT (ideally with the trait to make this the basis for Diplo/Bluff). I just refreshed myself on the Animorphs series and remembered that Yeerks can only stay in a host for 3 days before they have to seek other nourishment. Maybe we could do something like that for me too? I do the puppeteer thing for a while but then have to seek a food source before I can reacquire a host creature.

EDIT: Like, maybe I need a certain kind of food every few days and have to leave my host body to find some.

Okay, popping back in with an idea!

How about a swarm of nano-bots(or magic constructs), they have a hive mind ruled by a queen. They take over the brain and spinal cord of the host and attempt to feed off of the energy inside. They have to move from host to host because they end up killing them.

:D I have more ideas. This is the first one. Whadda'ya think?

Under that point but table, I would be working with a 65 point buy for my other 4 stats...

That would be 3 18's and a 17 with one point left. I might have to buy over 18 just to maintain some semblance of balance. :P

Wow... I'd really have to reign that in, when you put it that way. I'll meditate on exactly how low a stat can go, maybe making 3 the bottom, at least then we're not plumbling new depths beyond the lowest 3d6 char-gen methods. Then again, if you are taking ONE in two stats, maybe you deserve the commensurate advantages. Just don't get upset If something punches your ticket by virtue of those weaknesses.

The one ring wound up in a river for friggin' ages, not to mention spending plenty of time in the possession of a less than ideal host. as a GEM, I think even moving 5'/turn is generous. You might be able to shake yourself off a lapel, or a shelf, or bounce in the direction you'd like to go given something else's momentum (fall, being thrown) but you're a sessile object without a host. Sometimes somebody will pick you up as a logical extension of looting your host, but you could just as easily wind up in a spiderweb next to a mouldering skeleton. Also, I've mentioned in PM that your being a gem might protect you from some conventional means of stat loss (poison and disease for example) but there are creatures out there that eat STR and DEX (like the conventional shadows, for example) who -- once/if they see you for what you are, will view you as a fancy morsel in a decorative tin.

I really love your concept Choon, but EVERYONE should be ready to embrace the weaknesses of their hijacker form. And moreso than any other concept so far -- you've got 'em.

I'm also considering that the farther your attribute bonuses take a host's original stat block out of the norm, it wears on the lifespan of the host -- as characters progress this may become less of an issue, but thematically look at it this way. Choon Possesses a Wolf, and gives it 18 intelligence and 18 wisdom... charisma isn't such a stretch for a pack animal, so I mitigate that somewhat, he's an alpha dog. But in order for the hijacker to "be himself" in this host, he is basically "overclocking" the dog's brain to the point it is literally cooking. As a polemic example, a high physical stat hijacker occupying a lighter frame as you expect would be wreaking physiological havoc on it, with bulging veins feeding unnaturally swollen muscles... so bear this in mind as well. As such Choon, you may only be able to depend on a stable host in a exceptional humanoid forms (capacity for physical fitness AND brain power -- and gifted ones at that. Such specimens are relatively rare, and not the easiest folk to make suckers of. I won't spoil or do your RP for you, but I can already think of a few ways that this wouldn't be much of a problem if you're clever. Maybe.

I might not break it all down for you mechanically, but get ready to really embrace your bad with your good. Punctum Caveat Emptor -- "Point Buyer Beware" :D

KatsuneSage: Your concept falls very much within what I imagined for a "Germ" or "Slime" type hijacker. I really like it. And yes, it makes perfect sense that the magical constructs (which likely originate from the dark tapestry) are using hosts both as a means to ambulate, and perhaps sending drained life energy back into their home plane. Maybe your creator is some unimaginable gluttonous nightmare, sending you forth (whether you are aware of it or not) to taste as much of what the material plane has to offer... :D

On the topic of mortal allies -- as part of your process of obtaining hosts, the use of mortal allies may quickly or eventually become an aspect of the story depending on how it goes. The party may decide to wander, hacking and slashing with the forms it finds, or alternatively, could occupy a number of cooperative creatures in a community to subvert or usurp control of a tribe/band/den ... etc. As players rise in power (or if they are particularly charismatic) they might be able to extort or convince groups in certain areas to surrender host bodies as a kind of levy. "Capture 4 ogres and give them to us monthly -- or we will eat every-single-one of you, tommorow." -- heck, play your cards right and like any good mind controller, you could start your own false-religion, with people lining up to be hijacked. It's sandbox. It may go where y'all choose to take it.

I am still really liking my shadow concept. I'm starting to get a good idea on what weaknesses the shadow would have, though I'm still working on all that. Perhaps the way to figure out I'm there is the shadow looks slightly different?

I love it. Especially the people surrendering to the constructs will! Muahahahaha!

Here's what I've got so far for my parasite. Probably need some kind of special ability to infiltrate a host's ear canal since his CMB will be atrocious. Is there an "attach" ability?

Diminutive Aberration
Darkvision 60ft
d8 hit die
-----------------------
3/4 BAB progression
AC 14|14|14 (+4 size)
CMB -4; CMD 6 (-4 size)
Good Will save
-------------------------
Skills (4+INT)
Stealth +12 size bonus
--------------------------
Melee: pseudopod (1pt nonlethal + grab)

Perhaps exactly how you're perceived is something you yourself may learn through trial and error (mu-hu-ha-ha) -- A few ways I can think of:

1) As a shadow, some creatures are fortunate (or perceptive enough) are going to be able to spot you as a moving shadow with no point of origin, especially when you move along the ground in an open area and/or with an overhead light source. As you grow stronger you may be able to camouflage or break up your shadow profile, but when not hiding in the confines of another shadow, you might appear as a black circle or pool on a surface -- without successful stealth or disguise an observer MIGHT even, from the right angle, spot a "tell" in your form (glowing red eyes, a spectral set of teeth, something else in line with your concept or nature, Let me know if you have a particular idea for a "tell" for your character) -- so if you are watching a target, and their hairs rise on the back of their neck and they turn precisely in your direction... they might see something blink at them -- but that doesn't necessarily mean they know it's a shadow monster, and in fact if they raise a light to look for you that's an OPEN INVITATION to swing behind them and jump in their shadow.

Man... All this imagry should be coming out in the game, some of it is really cool and should be in the context of a narrative.

Anyway -- as far as detection weaknesses, the fact that you are a shadow with no point of origin can be a serious liability at times, especially in well lit areas -- and I'd also add that before you invade another creature's shadow, you must rise from your "pool of darkness" that, especially without a long shadow to hide in -- is exposed. This concept really reminds me of the "Ma'hir" from that old Myth game -- which if you're not familiar, a quick description is here:

http://www.giantbomb.com/mahir/3015-7008/

while certainly not everything, some of the ideas of this shadow-creature could translate to one such as yours.

Non detection weaknesses I've already addressed -- they are likely vulnerability to bright flashes of light or deep darkness that dissolves your outline. between that and needing to expose yourself in 3 dimensions while you invade a shadow, and we have a good enough suite of concerns for a sneaky hijacker.

Whack-a-Rogue: Your hideous CMB is a worthy weakness that prevents you from successfully invading aware and unwilling hosts. For a creature like you a host is basically akin to a stronghold you need to infiltrate, which could be accomplished with stealth and disguise. Also, while you certainly would not want to be actively popped into somebody's mouth and eaten -- sneaking into a flask or water source and being swallowed would be a great way potentially to get past a creatures defenses, invade the sinus cavity, and from there, the brain through the ears or nasal cavity. The "Combat" in "Combat Maneuver Bonus" is going to be a problem for you... but at higher CR, or if you can find a pre-packaged attach ability, we can come up with something that helps. Once you're in somebody's head -- they're not in good shape to get you out by themselves, and you can be VERY persuasive (both with physical pain or if you choose, CHA) to be left in place. You better take the wheel fast though, before an associate with a hot poker and some points in heal decides to do some invasive surgery. :D

Wow... I'd really have to reign that in, when you put it that way. I'll meditate on exactly how low a stat can go, maybe making 3 the bottom, at least then we're not plumbling new depths beyond the lowest 3d6 char-gen methods. Then again, if you are taking ONE in two stats, maybe you deserve the commensurate advantages. Just don't get upset If something punches your ticket by virtue of those weaknesses.

The one ring wound up in a river for friggin' ages, not to mention spending plenty of time in the possession of a less than ideal host. as a GEM, I think even moving 5'/turn is generous. You might be able to shake yourself off a lapel, or a shelf, or bounce in the direction you'd like to go given something else's momentum (fall, being thrown) but you're a sessile object without a host. Sometimes somebody will pick you up as a logical extension of looting your host, but you could just as easily wind up in a spiderweb next to a mouldering skeleton. Also, I've mentioned in PM that your being a gem might protect you from some conventional means of stat loss (poison and disease for example) but there are creatures out there that eat STR and DEX (like the conventional shadows, for example) who -- once/if they see you for what you are, will view you as a fancy morsel in a decorative tin.

I really love your concept Choon, but EVERYONE should be ready to embrace the weaknesses of their hijacker form. And moreso than any other concept so far -- you've got 'em.

Oh, I'm fully willing to embrace my weaknesses. I'm just trying to work through all this. I may end up having the character with the most weaknesses, and I'm ok with that. I'm also fine with minimum stats of 3. It'll prevent massive point accrual, as seen above.

I'm also considering that the farther your attribute bonuses take a host's original stat block out of the norm, it wears on the lifespan of the host -- as characters progress this may become less of an issue, but thematically look at it this way. Choon Possesses a Wolf, and gives it 18 intelligence and 18...

I like this idea. I like it very much.

If Choon, Whack, Kana, and Katsune are all interested in playing -- that's enough people to actually get things rolling. Get your concepts as straight in your heads as possible, and try to cook everything you can with regards to your stats and post here and we'll work it out. As GM, I'm going to be doing my best to round out ambiguity or just telling folks not to sweat the small stuff. If you don't have sufficient weaknesses and strengths in my perception I may give you extras. If the ones you pick are too great (like choon arguing his inanimate gem has a move value) I'll reign it in. the stats will fill in most of the blanks and if we hit walls or complexities -- we can talk it out in forum, or via PM.

This experiment is BOUND to go off the rails, but we'll we ready when it does. :D

OK! for the time being let's leave the point buy at 15 points, with the minimum stat value 3 for any given stat -- with GM approval and if it REALLY jibes with your theme, we can negotiate this but it will likely be a BIG achillies heel. (Choon if you take 3 STR/DEX you can, in ideal conditions, move small distances or even hover a bit, perhaps a few times a day. with 1s, you're totally sessile. Being an animate gem is going to keep you out of the sneaker market regardless.

FORMAL RECRUITMENT FORM FOR PROSPECTIVE PLAYERS:

Loose Backstory: (if you're already following you know the deal, but here's an abstract if you're new or we move to a new thread when the story opens...)

Hidden from the eyes of the lands of men and elves, there are epics and heroes of evil as much as of good. This is one such story, behind the veil of the dark tapestry, and behind the veil of broken ground in the deepest underdark -- this is the story of the Red Cathexis, and the horrors it issued like a cancer unseen beneath the surface of the world of Golarion.

In 4606 AR, The same year that the world-wound began to open in response to the death of Aroden, the fabric between the prime material plane and that of the dark tapestry weakened. The unimaginable are horrible beings of that place looked covetously upon this new world, and dangers so hideous the simple minds of mortals cannot comprehend them, quickly set to work on encroaching there --

However small the rift, a hole, a pore even - cunning beings set to realizing how they could jump the breach into Golarion. The beings that came forth were in diametric opposition to the gods of golarion, light, order, and the very laws of nature. As such, to simply cross the breach was impossible -- a being from the dark tapestry would be rent from the world explosively as quickly as it arrived. Undeterred, the horrors of that dark place set to creating a device -- a vessel, that would enable at least a fragment of a being from the dark tapestry to enter this world. That object came to be known as "The Red Cathexis" -- No larger than a grain of sand at first, and carrying merely a scintilla of the trueforms of the beings that rode within it -- it burst into existence deep underground, somewhere between Ustalav, Belkzen and Lastwall -- and began to grow.

it is now 4713, and the Cathexis -- now little larger than a fist, is finally large enough to open and release it's forbidding cargo into the underworld. The beings within, such as they are, cannot exist indefinitely outside of a native hosts, to be seen as they truly are by light of day or without such cover from the sight of the gods would destroy them utterly. They had forseen this. They were bodysnatchers -- Hijackers of the minds and corpses of mortal beings, and they would use the forms of beings in the underdark to hide their nature, mitigate their relative weaknesses, and embrace their strength.

Their individual motives and goals are unclear, but to be certain they cannot bode well for any being on Golarion. All that is clear for now is that they are hungry, covetous, and malign -- The Cathexis has finally opened -- and they will offend this world, only hesitating in the face of their own destruction -- or the Cathexis they must protect if they are to maintain their ties to this world...

PLAYERS GIVE TO THE GM (me):

LIST up to 2-3 CR 1, CR 2, AND CR 3 creatures you'd enjoy playing, and optionally -- give me a sentence or two on why you picked these. This will help me realize what you want out of the game, and give me ideas for meeting those expectations. I'm already cooking the mega-dungeon, but populating it with this data in mind will make us all happier.

Tell me what kind of Hijacker form you'd want to play, and why. Any potential edge/combinations/fun you'd like to have with it? Give me your stat-block you would have for a 15 point buy (with one or more dump stats REQUIRED) and think about how, if at all, this might effect your characters nature or personality. (it needn't, you may explain for example that while your form on the prime material plane is weak, in the dark tapestry where you come from your actual trueform is considerably more powerful) be creative! Stats can start as high as 18, and as low as 3. You can have ONE stat at 1 point with GM approval IF it fits really well with your theme, but expect such a choice to be a lethal Achilles' heel -- even more so than taking multiple 3s.

FUTURE EDIT: (Post types of Hijackers here)

Tell me (with as much detail as you care to) the kind of character/personality you intend to play, as well as your motivations and goals for your character. Give me at least one or two potential "plot-seeds" (you want a stronghold, you want to sleep on a pile of treasure, you want to sow discord and upset peace and balance between thinking beings, etc.) -- what kind of quests can you forsee this character undertaking? are you after loot? annihilation? a perfect physical form? fulfilling prophesy? Sending souls into the Dark Tapestry? if you REALLY want to play, give me an idea of the kind of things you'd like or intend to do.

DISCLAIMERS:

1) BETTER PLAN ON BEING EVIL, or at least extremely morally flexible with GREAT story-driven reasons for not being so that will be able to mesh with other players. That doesn't have to mean everyone is selfish, backbiting, psycho-sociopaths (though it might be fun) -- in a quality lawful evil society, business is good and the coaches run on time. However, don't try to shoe-horn a good guy into this campaign. Unless you've got GREAT reasons for doing so and you can REALLY sell that idea, think hideous, think evil, think bestial, nasty, or at the very least cold, sobering and steely. I'm not saying you can't have characters that could even come off potentially noble or charming... but the common hero tropes are flipped here. Again, Be creative! HOWEVER -- do not think that the darker end of the aligment spectrum is an invitation to be a jerk to fellow players. Roleplayed friction and power dynamics can be AWESOME for a good story narrative -- spoiling other people's fun, is not. If your dream goal, stated or implied, is to betray, backbite, or troll other players -- expect to be reabsorbed back into the Cathexis before you can drop a d20. Such dynamics may indeed be realized in the campaign... but only if the quality of the story or game experience is enhanced, not detracted, by such strife. Two players who are similarly inclined to in the name of sport repeatedly kill each others hosts could be great fun for both parties. One person having fun ruining another players time? Not so much. It's all about context and rationalization. (it CAN be fun, but not if you're the only one having it.)

2) While I give myself credit for being a very creative GM, Pathfinder is a relatively new system to me, and the experimental nature of this campaign will require significant house ruling. As such, if you plan to play -- please be understanding if you are one of those players who undoubtedly has a more profound understanding of the system than I -- and if possible, try to make this an advantage you bring to the game.

Lastly: What mechanically do you think interests you the most about this type of campaign? What potential problems do you forsee?

I'm invited, yes?

I liked my ghost idea before, but I like the connected backstory of all being from the Dark Tapestry more. (Assuming I'm in) I'll roll up something else...something more suited to the aberrant, beyond-the-stars theme.

Whack-a-Rogue, I too am a fan of K.A. Applegate's...do you think it'd be okay if I was a fellow brain-slug, of the same spawning pool perhaps? Similar methods, but different motives?

Heck yes, -- don't know how I could have left you out, UFS!

There is plenty of opportunity to make your concept work -- if you like the idea of being from the Dark tapestry more than your current idea... a different kind of ghost is fine -- but I see potential in negotiating your character to the current theme.

Your ghost is of a long dead warlord, yes? Is 107 years long enough to be dead? Perhaps as part of your betrayal your body was thrown into a river far from your country of origin -- first over waterfalls, then down cisterns and whirlpools, the river ran underground and your body was lost, as was hoped, in the bowels of the earth. As you stated, by will or hate your soul would not rest -- though your body came to rest in the pool where the Cathexis first appeared, and to grow it pulled energy from the souls and beings that died around it. Formal pacts and deals are not made in the dark tapestry, but being one of the first bits of energy drawn within it, when it was weakest and your will was strongest -- you mingled your energy with the tapestry, giving yourself to it for a chance to hold onto this world, and to have your revenge.

That's a good enough justification for your idea as a spirit from golarion meshing with forces from the dark tapestry. Still, if you'd rather scrap your original idea and become a different kind of hungry ghost, we can go for that.

(Con't) The plot seeds alone (Revenge, actual enemies you have an axe to grind against, a rise back to power) make the concept still very attractive to me... though I'm hard pressed to imagine (unless you originally came from Ustalav, Belkzen, or Lastwall) that most humans who knew you when you died would even still be alive. Elves and other races though, still might remember or lived long enough to have been part of the plot to kill you... but even then it's outside the scope of my imagination how you'd lure such folks into the underworld so you could murder them... Still, it might be fun to see you try! :D

(or by all means, be another slug -- maybe you guys can team up and disguise yourselves as earplugs...) (giggle)

You're a creative guy, Vicon! I like your ghost idea a lot. I have to give the possibilities some thought.

As GM, I really don't want to twist your arm about the kind of player you make, but I'm not above helping to develop rationales for an idea original of yours to mesh with the backstory. Let me know what you ultimately decide. I think the gold standard of a good GM is to be able to think of ways to enable your players to do things, rather than "No" GMs (my least favorite kind) that are more in love with railroading or harping on why player concepts or plans "can't work." By all means don't let me write your backstory -- but showing you there is at least one justification for your original idea to mesh with the setting.

@UFS: if you want to be a fellow brain-slug, that's fine with me - although the ghost idea is pretty awesome. :-)

Here's my tentative crunch. Feedback would be awesome. :-) Traits are to make it possible to use my INT to lie with a nice modifier (I don't see slugs as particularly Charismatic but will swap my WIS/CHA if you have a problem with it). Do we get a feat?
I have to get back to work, so the personality/motivations/potential hosts will come later. I do know that I'd love to possess a Pseudodragon at some point, though.

Ill get started stating out the constructs when I have more time. Its homework day. Woo...

Ok, this is going to be rough. Very first-drafty. I have tried to note my concerns and thoughts under the relevant category.

That is quite the wall of text once the spoilers are expanded. Yay for spoilers!

Strong Start, WAR -- I'll be peeking at this and meditating on it while you wonder on the rest of the info. I know it's asking a lot for so much info, but the backstory/background and what people like to play is possibly the most important info!

I've been thinking about traits/feats, and I'm playing with a couple of ideas... and I've come up with so far:

Traits/Feats: Normally you're going to be getting your feats from your host, and since CR progression is taking precedent over level -- getting into assigning feats may be tricky, but if it helps start or round out a character I'm for it. You can select two traits of any type (not two of the same type, but two of any type regardless of normally being able to -- ie, you can take racial traits even without a race (Tusked or Helpful for example) because due to the nature of the dark tapestry who's to say you can't make an argument that you are derived from something like that) -- just be prepared to make the trait part of your backstory, and if the trait has a name that does not mesh with your origin (Valashmai Veteran for example) -- just list the trait, it's effect, and rename it to something thematic to you -- we can work it out.

You can also select one feat, but try to work into the theme of your character or exaggerate your strengths, rather than cover weaknesses. "Toughness" for dump CON or "Imp. Initiative" for dump DEX will be frowned upon. In the case of feats with prereqs that are complicated by the theme (ie, Breadth of experience requires that you be a gnome or dwarf of extended age) -- we can potentially negotiate this if it fits in with your character concept. (there are beings in the tapestry much older on average than dwarves, I imagine) -- all this can be summed up under "fast and loose". If you can't justify a trait (traits are meant to bolster backstory) I'd consider that a missed opportunity.

Don't expect to get add'l feats as part of character progression, but when players "level" we may discuss ways that a particular hijacker can improve (ie, Choon becoming less sessile, or his gem becoming more resistant, Kana having more control camoflaging or shaping their shadow, being able to improve hijacking... etc. We can do progression later when we have a better idea of how things are moving forward and when there is actually a character to progress.

Choon: I'm going to read through all this stuff very carefully, and give you feedback. but here are a couple of throw ins at first glance:

Technically, everyone from the dark tapestry is an "Outsider" (this could get complicated by folks with different concepts though) -- that said, adopting a profile for outsider or construct might get stifling or tricky, as you indicate. Instead, for now, every character is a kind of unique entity, with particular strengths or weaknesses relative to their nature. Quantifying them exactly may be a work as we progress. We've already indicated that poison/disease is not a concern for you, and that you move little or not at all. I also think DR (Cold Iron) might be something the original Abrasax had, but these outsiders have had to eschew much of their nature to create the fragment of a being we call "a hijacker" -- likewise, Katsune's Constructs may have a quality or two akin to constructs, but not a construct profile. The watchword here is "absolutely foreign in every friggin way" -- your natural tendency (in the context of this narrative) if I sat down and wrote a profile of dark tapestry beings might very likely be to blow up immediately upon exposure to oxygen. As such, don't be sad if you don't get all the resistances it might otherwise make sense to start with)

Your movement is far more within tolerance between raising STR/DEX and refining the concept. I like it. As far as sum of all knowledge, hijackers will likely always have such an ability implied. To keep a secret from a bodysnatcher might be near if not actually impossible for most victims. Use of feats and skills is a given.

I'll also put out that any being from the dark tapestry should have at least darkvision 30'. This is likely to improve. They do, after all, come from a plane of endless blackness -- though very often the solution to this is to have no sight at all, I imagine... that said, due to the underground nature of the campaign and where characters hail from... getting lost and blind in the dark would be pretty silly. As people level, folks can ask about potentially improving darkvision or even getting better sight modes (I'll take a look at Oracle vision w/ blindness curse for ideas)

As far as what happens to your host when you leave, that is also going to be something you may discover or refine as you progress -- these are great parameters to start with (helps me refine, for sure) but expect these things to be constant for everyone: (don't be surprised either if your milage varies though -- you're essentially an ALIEN BEING, trying this for the first time in this plane)

1) If you are *forced* to leave a host by choice or by expulsion, (ie, you want to leave because he's on fire, or you're exorcised) it's possible the host may survive and will be none well pleased with you. If they can quickly regain their faculties they will try to kill you. If you escape and they survive they WILL talk voluminously about the experience (raising alarm and suspicion) and may result in it or other beings coming to get you. This may become a central aspect to the story.

2) Occupying a host will almost if not always cause massive havoc on a body over time. Quickly detaching might not have lasting ill effects, but depending on nature of occupation (ie, filling the bloodstream with a slime-being, full and malign mental occupation) and duration - you can expect more often then not that hosts will die, and furthermore might even decay, disintigrate, melt, and other horrid stuff as the trans-planar nightmare that was squatting in their body leaves their wasted husk.

3) It MAY be possible for some types of habitation to not be so devastating, but this will require care, intent, and perhaps even artful RP on the part of the player. Ie, if a player can obtain a WILLING host, does not take them too radically outside of their original stat block or is willing to detatch periodically -- willing hosts might be preserved. Maybe. It's to be expected though that they likely might develop all manner of obvious physical and mental idiosyncracies evident when not occupied -- think "Renfield" from Dracula, for an example... sanity at the very least will become a very flexible concept for this sort of surviving post-host. (Like Vampires, it might be a valuable asset to cultivate a kind of willing/former host to help/rescue in situations where the hijacker is compromised -- but I'll leave that to players.)

______

In any case, I'll cook your info in herolab and hit you back - we can review and negotiate ambiguities from there. some abilities may need to be refined, but this is ALL very useful for blazing a trail to refine other concepts. (The +2 Know ability, when you consider traits and a feat still have to come in, is likely OP. However, you already make a great argument for a candidate for "Breadth of Knowledge" (you're very old) -- and might even turn out better than the ability you described, especially when you consider it has impact on profession as well as know skills. (but it DOES cost a feat)

all in all, this is great and I can work with this. I should look into employing spoiler buttons too. This is often quite a mouthful.

I'm interested in this and want to bounce an idea off you.

Could I be a "brain in beaker" who doesn't actually merge with his host at all, but stays at home and possesses them long range. The brain would need to be defended, but maybe could possess multiple creatures totaling a certain CR? I could toss together a more specific prospectus if you find this interesting.

If that doesn't interest you, I'll probably be interested in one of the more conventional aspects already mentioned - a possessing ghost, a collection of clockworks or something similar.

I could also be interested in a constantly body hopping creature like in the movie Fallen with Denzel Washington. That creature had to physically touch you and you got a will save against possession. If you make it, he can't possess you, but if his host dies, he can possess anyone within X yards without them getting a save.

Actually, the two concepts could go together pretty well. A body hopping brain in a jar.

Here's what I've got for potential hosts. ALL CAPS means thems my favey.

Here's my initial thoughts for a custom subtype:

Outsider (name?)
Hit dice: d6
Base attack bonus equal to 1/2 CR (or maybe even slower as I have no appendages.
Good Saves: Fort, Will
Skill Points: 6+int mod/CR
Class Skills: Appraise,Bluff, craft, diplomacy, disguise, intimidate, Know (all), linguistics, perception, profession, sence motive, Spellcraft

Proficient with no weapons
Proficient with no armor

Darkvision (60)
Immune to spells that do not harm incorporeal creatures, poison, disease, does not eat, sleep, or breathe.
Not subject to fatigue, exhaustion, and nonlethal damage.
Gains hardness equal to its CR

Ohhhh.. Pugwampi. I didn't see those. That's on the list.

"Listen well, my creations. You are to go onto this plane and find out all you can about the lifeforms there. You need to get inside their minds, its the only way your can give your master the information he seeks. You cannot continue the mission without their life essence, so take heed. Three days without sustenance, you will no longer be able to move." The being looked down on the thousands of fine constructs he had built and smiled a wicked grin. He waved his hand over them and they took flight. "Do as I say, tiny ones, and you will be the first wave to create a new plane of existence for our people."

MISSION TRNASMISSION
Find information on living creatures, keep us moving, infest minds.

Jill the Human walked along the road, being only 15, she was ready to prove she wasn't afraid of anything. She looked out on the open path and smiled. Then she saw something. She squinted, but all she could make out was a purpleish haze on the horizon, coming in fast. She wasnt afraid, it didnt look dangerous, in fact, it looked like it should be EXPLORED! She walked closer as the swarm descended. "What are you?" Her confused face was soon swarmed with tiny little constructs. They made their way into her ears, eyes, nose and mouth. She swatted and coughed, to no avail. She could feel them in her body, in her head. She screamed and blacked out...

Jill woke up hours later with a huge headache, but not much else. "Was that a dream? Or did that actually happen?" Jill decided her headache was because she needed water from taking a nap in the sun and ran back home. Her mother would be a great person to get water from. The town... Yes.. She must...get... back... to... town...
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Here is my crazy evil idea stated out: