Horrors of the Red Cathexis!

Game Master Vicon

Proposed Yeerk changes:
Rename traits to "Convincing" and "Intelligent Liar".
Add feat "Weapon Finesse"

Unit 254's species sounds like just the sort of thing Abrasax would love to get ahold of. ;)

That would be very interesting. Especially since Unit 254 is interested in conquering - not just Golarion - but the outside realms. The Cathexis is a gateway, after all, and gates open both ways....

So, ready to make a shot at becoming a Great Old One with me and bringing about the waking of Cthulhu (who is statted out as a CR 30 in the new beastiary)?

Sounds promising.... The only real problem is who gets to rule after we kill him and take over top spot? I can't possess you, but I can hire a couple halflings....

We do.

"Listen well, my creations. You are to go onto this plane and find out all you can about the lifeforms there. You need to get inside their minds, its the only way your can give your master the information he seeks. You cannot continue the mission without their life essence, so take heed. Three days without sustenance, you will no longer be able to move." The being looked down on the thousands of fine constructs he had built and smiled a wicked grin. He waved his hand over them and they took flight. "Do as I say, tiny ones, and you will be the first wave to create a new plane of existence for our people."

MISSION TRNASMISSION
Find information on living creatures, keep us moving, infest minds.

Data recieved, and your fairly hi-tech take on constructs looks like it might be well enough received with the other types of concepts I'm seeing. I will take a good long look over this info as I bake the template in herolab, be prepared for significant revisions. My initial responses are so far:

1) Hijacker form looks quite unsubtle and un-squishy. The inability to heal and Increased damage vs. elec & AE helps a bit, but the ethos of "I am weak without a host and strong with one" may not be completely evident here, and I may scale it back or we'll negotiate it after I have a chance to hash it. Remember -- the folks you infest are going to have 18 STR AND DEX. All of them. I'm looking really hard at this concept and I see at CR 1 it has two damage-mitigating profiles (construct and swarm) and a laundry list of immunities. Got to think about this. In fact, your hijacker form may in fact be hardier than most hosts you'd inhabit, at least at first -- because Immunity to weapon damage (for being diminutive) plus all those other defenses, if this was my character -- I'd think outside of a host I'd be making a bee-line (no pun intended) fearlessly for the next host. This entity would be on a host before his buddies could likely reach for the flasks of alchemist fire, that's if they had them. It just seems to me that even though taking damage is something this being needs to worry about, he doesn't need to worry about it much because there's not much in CR 1 creatures that's going to have a prayer of stopping him. Seems to contradict the ethos. Take Whack-a-Rouges concept for example. If he's spotted out of a host, he's potentially SQUISHED. Choon's guy has a lot going for him enticing people, but he's sessile, and that can leave him stuck or potentially at the mercy of a being that can resist him. I'm not sure if I can readily think of something off the bat that gives your concept pause the same way.

Also - if you don't heal naturally, how do you heal? This is an important question to answer, because if your hitpoints are really that premium, it might justify much of the resistances. if you really have finite hitpoints jumping from host to host until something kills you, that's a heavy drawback indeed. Still, my knee-jerk is that this guy is still kinda tough out of a host, and in a host maybe doubly so.

The INT dump to 1 is an interesting choice -- but are you prepared to have the intellectual contribution of a swarm of bees outside of a host? It might be really cool to see what kind of personalities emerge when you highjack INT hardware in the form of a mortal brain, but hypothetically, when the party is deciding what to do, and you do not have a host and have an INT of 1 -- what are you going to be doing? These are not challenges, I'm just very curious. (and I want you to be happy with your decision)

I'll get back to you looking at it in herolab, but my initial reaction is that your concept -- as wicked cool as it is, is OP without modification. I give myself credit for being creative, but I'm intimidated at the prospect of finding situations that will harm you that will not be doubly threatening to other party members. When I'm done cooking templates, I may likely come up with a uniform profile to keep things simple and balanced for hijackers, or skip a monster profile entirely for being without a host entirely. If a hijacker wants a sweet profile of resistances, that's no further than a good host. It seems starting with these bells and whistles (except with a very light hand) is bucking the trend.

All that said, the impulsive part of me thinks the concept is so cool I wish I could just let it ride. just not sure it's in line with the dynamic intended.

Thanks for the host choices, btw people -- it will help a great deal in populating the megadungeon. I already have more than a dozen environments and areas to develop, (likely more area than the campaign needs) and a couple of plot seeds for initial quest motivation, even before players bring their own motivations into the sandbox. I really appreciate the effort.

I'll get you something after I've had time to think. And work some things out.

I guess I didnt specify that if they are out of a host body for 2-3 days, they basically die. They are absolutely mindless. They go from host to host and they adopt the HOST's abilities, the host gets nothing from them. They're parasites, essentially. I have no problem nerfing the swarm, thats fine I just didnt mention the 2-3 day thing. Basically, the way I see it, if they feed and need to charge off of life force, they are goig to heal through that. But they are killing their host. The host is drawn by the subconsious urges of the swarm to get information, stay in working order, keep feeding.

A thing I was chatting with Whack about is that we could use the traits for diminuitive creatures, but keep them fine. That would lower fly bonus by 4 and my armor class by 4 making it 18.

I also have to be able to actually infect them. If I dont successfully infect, I lose HP, basically i loose some of my nano-constructs. This way they can kill themselves just by trying! haha. I think that will help a bit.

What do ya think? :)

another quick thought I had; Every time the swarm attempts to get into the host it loses one HP, no matter the result. Do or dont, they lose one, so they can only try so many times before moving on to the next being. If they were to kill themselves, then their instructions to keep themselves working isn't met, so they wouldnt suicide themselves, but it definitely weakens them a bit.

Each day, the creature could get a will save to not listen to the urges of going to a ton or going near another creature, Something that could scale as they level, which is why i would have to start with creatures like goblins or bugbears or just plain animals for a while until they leveled so they could successfully influence a creature to do something to help them before they kill the creature, causing more vulnerability.

We'll both hash it over, Katsune.

I got the part about no host for approx. 3 days -- I just don't see that as being a very large problem for the swarm if you need AE damage or electricity to hurt them. Plus, the most likely candidates to injure them (mages) don't necc. know (in the moments before the swarm hits them potentially making them nauseous) that AE is the way to harm them -- so throwing targeted spells (and wasting the little chance they have) is distinctly possible. Once the swarm closes, the mage would have to AE THEMSELVES to do their best damage, potentially -- which is likely against common sense. Point being, if I have to think this hard to put a dent in them, they're poor candidates for what I put forth as a concept for hijackers. Nevermind that wild animals will NOT have AE or electricity in many situations -- If you had the ability to possess say, a T-rex -- what do you think the T-rex's chances are of stopping you?

Losing HP for failing possession is an ok idea, but consider a creature like Whack-a-rogue... if he fails to possess he is in far greater jeopardy then losing a hitpoint. His host could pick their ear and SQUISH HIM. Meditate on it. I will too.

You might be able to gain some traction starting as small constructs, which as they evolve/improve can gain tiny/diminutive bonuses. That your go-to was the smallest swarm size which grants extremely high AC (When you are out of a host I'll remind you!) -- tells me we really need to start more conservative and work TOWARDS the best perks.

As I said, is your concept cool as all hell? I submit that it is. Is it in line with the tone of depending on a host to survive? I'm not sure. In the strictest sense yes (you can't survive long without a host) but as I said I don't see this as being a realistic obstacle at the moment. In addition, EVERYONE is going to be killing their hosts by occupying them -- so this alone is a disadvantage, but not one that mitigates your strengths.

I'm interested in this and want to bounce an idea off you.

Could I be a "brain in beaker" who doesn't actually merge with his host at all, but stays at home and possesses them long range. The brain would need to be defended, but maybe could possess multiple creatures totaling a certain CR? I could toss together a more specific prospectus if you find this interesting.

If that doesn't interest you, I'll probably be interested in one of the more conventional aspects already mentioned - a possessing ghost, a collection of clockworks or something similar.

I could also be interested in a constantly body hopping creature like in the movie Fallen with Denzel Washington. That creature had to physically touch you and you got a will save against possession. If you make it, he can't possess you, but if his host dies, he can possess anyone within X yards without them getting a save.

Actually, the two concepts could go together pretty well. A body hopping brain in a jar.

Welcome MCP!

Two things off the bat, I *LOVE* the "brain in a jar" trope, and "Fallen" is a wonderful example of a hijacker -- I thought that movie was awesome, and I can't believe I hadn't thought of that movie in the context of this campaign. Now THAT creature was an example of potentially being screwed without a host. (outside of a body he had almost ZERO time to find an occupant or die, saying that alone isn't doesn't spoil anything) - he didn't boost his host's stats, and his hosts even were pretty squishy. :D

However, here are my misgivings about "Brain in a Jar":

1) It's not a big enough weakness to merit it's advantage because considering that the Cathexis, if not adequately hidden/defended can be broken killing everyone, keeping the jar with the cathexis doesn't put you in any less danger, and you're cleverly outsourcing responsibility to your defense on the rest of the party. In essence, everyone has "a brain in a jar" -- only your concept as it is can wander freely with impunity in a host (or searching for one) -- and if the host dies.. or you lose a fight, what is now at risk? you don't have to "flee" or "hide" to escape the fight, you're warm and bubbly at home still. If you had to physically have hosts brought to you this would be a far bigger disadvantage, but you're suggesting possession at range -- not much to risk... how could a monster track you back to the jar to kill you? That's if a creature survived an encounter with your remote possession ability (again, nothing risked if you fail) and they actually have the STONES to try and find your jar, if even they had the slightest hint that it existed, and how to find it. See where I'm going with that? That's not even getting into the idea that even better potentially then sitting back with the Cathexis, you could hide somewhere else and use some or all of your thralls to defend it.

possessing x = CR creatures has merit though, but I am spooked when I start to think about the extra legwork of simming multiple creatures for one person, especially should they be chosen with an idea of certain synergies neither of us can anticipate. Might not seem like a big deal now, but I can imagine it at least getting to be a lot more legwork/tracking... and at worst a perfect storm once you find 2-3 wildly different monster effects that stack viciously. Meh.

An example of love the concept, but is risking too little out of the gate. Maybe not as hardy as Katsune's idea (because at least if somebody finds you they can kill you with a wrench) -- but I think I've made my point. either redefine/retune, or go with something more akin to what has been offered, in line with a ghost or this clockwork you envision.

Capping starting players at 6 -- But once we have a good tempo going I'm not against adding more people if it's not a headache.

There's might be a site out there that timestamps dice-rolls so when we start I'll put up links for where people can make rolls and I can check for them... to keep things moving or to simulate combat I may roll for players if they have conveyed effectively what they want to do in a certain situation to keep the game going.

Pretty psyched to see things are building momentum. I know it will be a little messy getting characters out the gate, but I think once we get going this will be a lot of fun. Just what I've been able to cobble together behind the scenes for dungeon generation has me pretty excited!

What reservations do you have with in-post rolling?

Brain in a Jar Concerns

I understand what you are saying about the safety of the jar at home.

I actually had the opposite thoughts, so I must have misunderstood. I'd thought there was a kind of PVP element to the game, and so the brain in a jar is actually more dangerous as anyone can walk in with a spanner and break it. This isn't much of a danger if I don't have to worry about the other players.

Regarding synergy, that is certainly going to be a problem if we team up because we will synergize with each other. Some of us will take support type monsters, relying on others to keep us alive, so I'd kind of anticipate that. Others of us will also probably try to take potentially immortal monsters such as trolls.

Looking through the monster manual last night, I came across the template for Ectoplasmic Creature and thought that had some potential as a way to get bodies. I also came across Beheaded again and thought that could be fun.

It's all good though. I can come up with cool ideas no matter what restrictions are placed and so am not really worried about crunch.

Here is a different kind of idea. It has the same flavor as above, but completely different crunch than the brain in a jar. It does use the multiple hosts, but in a limited way:

This would be my character and these would be my minions.

Beheaded are all CR 1-3 and so anytime I had enough stockpiled, I could add a head of any kind of monster we find. We could require that I use a head with similar fluff if I want to use one of the special (farting, flaming, etc) heads. An example would be that we kill/find a medusa and I turn it into a grabbing head.

Or maybe not. I'm just tossing ideas out there. I'm still perfectly fine playing something very similar to one of the stock ideas.

I'm really interested in what hero lab has to say about my little precious. :)
Also, I'll probably be switching out that knowledge skill with Breadth of Knowlwdge. At least the latter isn't completely made up. Still no good idea for a second trait or feat. Maybe a social feat? Would you allow us to take a feat like Extra Talent (rogue): Rumormonger or something like that without prereq's?

I'm leaning towards actually being tiny instead of diminutive (if that's allowable) and likely incorporeal, because I'm leaning to being like a shadow on the wall type feel. Perhaps a progression for the future of this character would be the ability to do minor material object manipulation.

I'm thinking my little shadow is a very mischievous. His whole goal would be to cause as much chaos and mayhem as possible. How would you feel about the See in Darkness ability for the shadow? since he is darkness, a shadow. He would join with the shadow, unable to take a host, but he would be able to see them. I plan on taking either light sensitivity or light blindness for when he enters bright light. He would also not be able to interact with physical objects (though possibly he could manipulate things in the future, though only small things or small movements of things?). I feel he would also only have telepathy and charades as communication means. When he is attached, when his host sleeps, he starts consuming good dreams, replacing them with nightmares. This could lead to people realizing something is wrong. His host would also likely become more and more sleep-deprived the longer he's attached. (Would we need a will save for this? I feel this is more a symptom of him being attached than an actual need to feed, perhaps it is enjoyment that he does this.)

So, while this may not be a traditional "adventuring party" kind of game, I think it would be rather funny if we happened to randomly possess a group of adventurers. Choon gets grabbed by the Halfling Rogue, I possess the Elf Wizard, Katsune infects the Gnome Bard, UFS gets the Human Fighter, Kana enters the Dwarf Cleric's shadow, etc.

That would be fun!

What reservations do you have with in-post rolling?

I'm just not familiar with the mechanics of it, Choon -- as I've never used it. can you refer me to a thread/page that explains that it is reliable/un-fudgable? As somebody who's spoiler tags don't work half the time -- I know I'd never detect a fudged/altered roll even if the boards had a mechanic for generating random numbers. Even if it did, are there parameters in place that prevent somebody from editing their post to remove a roll so they could re-roll? (I know evidence of editing is there, but in a post where somebody's butt is on the line they are as likely to make a mistake posting worthy of edit as anybody (with the requisite moral flexibility) has for fudging a roll.

If you can vouch and refer to how it works, I'm cool with it* -- but if in-post rolling is not objectively reliable, I'd want to outsource.

-V

*Very cool with it in fact, the simpler the better, I say!

I'll be perfectly honest that it is possible to fudge rolls, but not easy. You have to somehow add rolls above the one you want to change or something. I'm not sure exactly how it works.
However, if everyone is honorable, in-post rolling is perfectly possible

You can even label the rolls: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (4) + 5 = 9
[dice=*your text here, not required*]1d20+x-y[\dice]
Just switch the direction of the slash at the end.

Based on what I've seen, even when you add rolls, the die result stays the same. Yeah the result looks different, but it's because you have a different modifier. Difficult to show through a post, but I've played around with adding/subtracting rolls in the past (not during a game, of course), and couldn't figure out how to cheat the system.

Example
Roll Two: 1d20 ⇒ 8 Added after Roll One was made
Roll One: 1d20 ⇒ 19 Originally an 8

If I were to then delete Roll Two, Roll One would change back to an 8.

I will also say that there are some pretty obvious tells, like someone adding a useless/nonsensical skill roll above an attack.

Edit: or rolls happening outside the order stated in the fluff.

Vicon wrote:

Brain in a Jar Concerns

I understand what you are saying about the safety of the jar at home.

I actually had the opposite thoughts, so I must have misunderstood. I'd thought there was a kind of PVP element to the game, and so the brain in a jar is actually more dangerous as anyone can walk in with a spanner and break it. This isn't much of a danger if I don't have to worry about the other players.

Regarding synergy, that is certainly going to be a problem if we team up because we will synergize with each other. Some of us will take support type monsters, relying on others to keep us alive, so I'd kind of anticipate that. Others of us will also probably try to take potentially immortal monsters such as trolls.

Looking through the monster manual last night, I came across the template for Ectoplasmic Creature and thought that had some potential as a way to get bodies. I also came across Beheaded again and thought that could be fun.

It's all good though. I can come up with cool ideas no matter what restrictions are placed and so am not really worried about crunch.

MPC -- great to see you're sown-into the thread.

Regarding PVP -- Possible? Yes. Encouraged? No. Permitted? Certainly, with caveats. I'll explain. This campaign is sandbox - so the ultimate goals of the players are up to them. There are plots that will act on the players just as the players plots will act on the world (the most obvious being that the Cathexis must be hidden/protected or they cannot stay on Golarion) -- But there is other stuff too, "Was it anticipated that it would take 100 years for a friggin' door to open? We sent only a fragment of our energy through a tiny hole -- what happened?", "Where is the Cathexis with respect to the world, and what if anything does this mean?", "How many of us came through? Are more coming?" ... but is it possible in sandbox that rivalries could emerge between players (PVP)? Animosity? Betrayal? If it doesn't harm anybody's fun -- PVP is quite possible, but I think everyone's on the same page regarding trolling or hurting other players "because it's what my character would do." (I'm not saying that's you, but if the subject comes up, I pull the bill on my hat down which has that disclaimer)

In the context of completely morally flexible/bankrupt beings that infest mortals and tools and playthings, PVP could become quite popular -- if you don't care about the lives of your hosts, it could become a sort of passtime, if two nightmare beings are similarly inclined, to square hosts off against each other, to see which is best, or just as a form of entertainment before one strikes out to find other victim to inhabit. If other players want to PVP their hosts -- and it adds to the narrative without bogging the game down, I support it. If somebody spent the last 10 posts finally getting their pugwampi before you rip it's head off and suck the blood from it's body like a little humanoid soda-can, I'd be far less enthused. All players have a vested interest in defending THE Cathexis. This is a sound basis for the players to all work together, or at least not step on each others toes. I think you overstand at this point, so I'm sorry if I run overclear.

Regarding Synergy between players -- DOUBTLESS, and anticipated. I'd LOVE IT if players searched for ways in different hosts to fill traditional roles. It breeds cooperation and interdependence. However, one person being able to function in several capacities WOULD NOT need to depend on other players necessarily. The Cleric can do without the fighter and the Rouge, if the Cleric can control a fighter and a rouge as well... get my drift? It is one thing to be so clever and coordinated to have the entire group working together to be a perfect team. It's another when 3 other people need one guy to be that missing link, but that other guy wants two of them to be a part of his infinitely cooler, or OP, or broken firing solution. I'm not saying that's you, I'm just saying that's my reason for raising an eyebrow. Player mesh = Good. One player developing his own mesh = considerably more work for me with all those add'l hosts + risks detracting from synergy, or making synergy so easy it taxes the GM to make things threatening. I'll say it over and over -- The #1 killer of PBPs is GMs running out of steam... so don't be 3 guys when you could just as easily be one. You can hack it. But knowing the limits of my skills I'd rather parlay the limited processing power in my brain to allow more people to participate or the few I have to have a richer experience. It would not be your fault if I allowed it and couldn't handle it. It would be MINE.

Definitely looking into Ectoplasmic Monsters -- was that something introduced in Carrion Crown? I'll have to do my homework. This weekend will likely see the player concepts that are hashed out plugged into my Herolab, and my reading up on Synthesist summoners (and Ecto baddies) to see if anything can be co-opted to outline things smoother. that, and all the story and encounter ideas I have popcorning. The ecosystem around level one is already starting to develop, and cultures and events relative to the golarion timeline are taking shape.

Will meditate on the Headless head guy, with my full attention given once Choon, Whack, and Katsune's templates are at least v1 complete (ie, I have them in herolab) -- My main concerns are that this guy is not a hijacker, he's a character that makes additional minion creatures. As such, I have to worry about his profile/position, and the profile/position of each of his minions -- each of which could be in different areas potentially with different monster abilities. As above stated, Insanely cool concept -- but is swimming against the current with the current theme. When I look at all of my notes for where and what everyone is -- everyone else is going to be Hijacker(Host?) -> Location -> Status. Your character would be expressed thusly:

Hijacker -> Location -> Status + Head A (B... C... D...) -> Location A (B... C... D...) -> Status A (B... C... D...) -- add this to the fact every player has the potential to grow their own dominion, slaves, subordinates that I can run (more easily) behind the scenes, and I anticipate headaches. Which is a pity, because I love this guy already. Just the narrative potential of a dapper brain in a jar is 90x cooler than the original brain in a jar. Still, the logistical complexities, though mitigated, are still present. At least once he starts cooking at CR 3+. Also, whatever range he can operate from his minions brings us back to the "Immutable paradoxical defense of the brain in the Jar" problem - as other hosts, when killed, expose the hijacker.

I'm really interested in what hero lab has to say about my little precious. :)

Also, I'll probably be switching out that knowledge skill with Breadth of Knowlwdge. At least the latter isn't completely made up. Still no good idea for a second trait or feat. Maybe a social feat? Would you allow us to take a feat like Extra Talent (rogue): Rumormonger or something like that without prereq's?

I don't know, Choon -- most respectfully I stopped reading when I realized Rumormonger in game terms is a power for 10+ level rogues. I *LOVE* the idea, and hope you try to do stuff like this, but it will have to be on the merits of your RP (and likely more than one bluff check to the right people.) I adore that you're thinking along these lines, and I am open to being flexible of prereqs on a case by case basis (like breadth of knowledge), but in this case I'm trusting there's a really good reason paizo put this skill that far up the tree. Until then, you're going to have to run your rumor mill as best you can. :D

Choon wrote:

I'm really interested in what hero lab has to say about my little precious. :)

Also, I'll probably be switching out that knowledge skill with Breadth of Knowlwdge. At least the latter isn't completely made up. Still no good idea for a second trait or feat. Maybe a social feat? Would you allow us to take a feat like Extra Talent (rogue): Rumormonger or something like that without prereq's?

I don't know, Choon -- most respectfully I stopped reading when I realized Rumormonger in game terms is a power for 10+ level rogues. I *LOVE* the idea, and hope you try to do stuff like this, but it will have to be on the merits of your RP (and likely more than one bluff check to the right people.) I adore that you're thinking along these lines, and I am open to being flexible of prereqs on a case by case basis (like breadth of knowledge), but in this case I'm trusting there's a really good reason paizo put this skill that far up the tree. Until then, you're going to have to run your rumor mill as best you can. :D

I honestly posted that before I checked its position on the Talent tree. I would never try that at lvl 1. That's a minimum CR 10 thing.

Does Extra Talent: Convincing Lie mesh better? I think it does.

Also: I'd like to share an idea I had while pondering the mobile brain in jar thing.

A beast focusing on Physical stats that has an openable skull. In order to process high-level cognitive stuff, he must obtain and insert brains into his own head. His method of doing so is catching some poor critter, smashing its lower body to bloody bits, cracking the skull like a walnut, and extracting the brain. He then places his new mind into his own head. How long it lasts varies. Bonus time/intellegence/residual knowledge if he kills and stashes a full tribe/village/city in his head.
If Mr. MPC doesn't want this idea, I claim it as backup in case Abrasax dies. :)

I'm leaning towards actually being tiny instead of diminutive (if that's allowable) and likely incorporeal, because I'm leaning to being like a shadow on the wall type feel. Perhaps a progression for the future of this character would be the ability to do minor material object manipulation.

I'm thinking my little shadow is a very mischievous. His whole goal would be to cause as much chaos and mayhem as possible. How would you feel about the See in Darkness ability for the shadow? since he is darkness, a shadow. He would join with the shadow, unable to take a host, but he would be able to see them. I plan on taking either light sensitivity or light blindness for when he enters bright light. He would also not be able to interact with physical objects (though possibly he could manipulate things in the future, though only small things or small movements of things?). I feel he would also only have telepathy and charades as communication means. When he is attached, when his host sleeps, he starts consuming good dreams, replacing them with nightmares. This could lead to people realizing something is wrong. His host would also likely become more and more sleep-deprived the longer he's attached. (Would we need a will save for this? I feel this is more a symptom of him being attached than an actual need to feed, perhaps it is enjoyment that he does this.)

Tiny or diminutive is awesome for the stealth and AC bonus -- but If you want to take over the shadows of a normal sized being (at least at first) you should probably have something similar to a normal sized shadow.

See in Darkness? I looked long and hard at this one, (it's in the fiend subtype?) and I am presently of a mind that if ANYBODY can justify having "See in darkness" it would be a SHADOW from THE DARK TAPESTRY. I would basically say that outside of a host, you see as well in darkness as you would in light, and while most darkvision is Black and White, you can even see color in darkness just as if there was light present. Magical Darkness is not likely to bother you either (maybe if it was created by a good cleric with a domain like light, or a cleric who prepared the spell with you in mind -- but even then I'd have to think about it and take level into account) -- Am I missing anything else mechanically you had in mind for this power? I'm far more inclined with letting this be an ability then I am about letting people start as smaller size catagories. REMEMBER -- If your concept is more vulnerable when they have a host, you MIGHT be doing it wrong. I am very excited about everyone's concepts, but it's very interesting so far (to a degree I did not anticipate) that when I proposed the idea of an adventure startting craven and vulnerable baddies that shine when they occupy their victims -- I am finding in most cases exceedingly slippery, undetectable (or damage-resistant) concepts that actually reduce in defense abilities when I think of most CR 1-3 creatures they'd inhabit. Still, doing my best to work with y'all. Are you proposing the idea that if you are in darkness you can see out of any contiguous darkness? (thought that might have been implied. If you're thinking that, you haven't fully realized likely exactly the scope of this power in a mega-dungeon that may never see the light of day. I'd have to give you a map on day one of CR 1 - CR 20 environments. The dungeon has a lot of dark in it. I hope that's not what you meant.)

Being Incorporeal is something likewise to shoot for -- but to begin with, lets just say you are solid, palpable blackness. We're not talking natural shadow, an absence of light -- we're talking EMBLEMATIC LIVING DARKNESS FROM THE UNQUANTIFIABLE REALMS OF MADNESS... and a scintilla of that, at it's weakest, sent to our world. You may eventually get hold of that tiny, insubstantial, undetectable thing that slips seamlessly into dreams... but we have to start someplace.
^ I encourage other folks to embrace this logic as well.

Not being able to manipulate physical objects or only doing so slightly will help as a weakness to ameliorate relative strengths, the telepathy and charades is an interesting proposition, but telepathy in what language? Telepathy truespeech, and if so, how is this a weakness? (smirk)

On the subject of language I was thinking that everyone should have a number of languages of their choice as long as they could justify their having them if they are not commonly spoken. (Everyone is encouraged to check the lists of underdark/monster languages out there -- some are pretty cool, like Necril and Undercommon.) -- I also thought it might be cool to give the players their own language of the dark tapestry... but I digress.

Lastly, while you are certainly welcome to make sport of torturing people while they sleep by eating their dreams and replacing them with nightmares -- I generally envision hijacking a host to be a more rapid process. Thematically you could be doing this and they take the appropriate WILL save, but if you were thinking this was a process for several nights, I'd say hijacking is much faster and traumatic. Still, in the scope of the game, I might allow you potentially to weaken or temporarily possess a slightly higher CR creature if you were willing to risk this sort of dream-torture over a period of time. A victim might take a will save for dream predation or a will save for being hijacked, or one for both if one was a means to the other. If you're subverting somebody's will, they're likely going to get a will save.

IN SHORT:

Tiny/Diminutive? : please no (to start, unless your victims are tiny/diminutive until you get bigger)

See in Dark: Very likely, though explain to me exactly what you see it doing or cite where I can refer to the rules if you're thinking it does more than I describe.

Incorporeal -- Not at first, or if so -- very rarely, and limited. (short duration and/or low times per day -- at least to begin with) when you complete your stat block, your choices might corroborate these things. Think about your point buy... unless I somehow missed it, or forgot receiving it?)

So, while this may not be a traditional "adventuring party" kind of game, I think it would be rather funny if we happened to randomly possess a group of adventurers. Choon gets grabbed by the Halfling Rogue, I possess the Elf Wizard, Katsune infects the Gnome Bard, UFS gets the Human Fighter, Kana enters the Dwarf Cleric's shadow, etc.

If you the entire party wants this, sandbox allows for it. I thought about this a great deal, And at least in the very beginning, don't count on there being lots of NPC characters to hijack (at least from the surface) -- many humanoids will doubtless have class levels and party-level organization, so there is that... in spades.

If you were thinking of conventional makeup surface parties -- this might require staying very close to the surface, and where adventurers enter -- so does sunlight. Big things to think about. Way ahead of you there. If possessing a certain class (or race/class combo) is on your mind, let me know it's part of your wishlist.

Wishlist:
class: Aristocrat
lvl: 20
role: King. Preferably of someplace like Absolom... Failing that, whatever devil controls Cheliax. :P

I will also say that there are some pretty obvious tells, like someone adding a useless/nonsensical skill roll above an attack.

Edit: or rolls happening outside the order stated in the fluff.

We SHOULD be ok, I'm inclined to trust until trust becomes suspect. That said, if anybody is suspicious (and savvier than I) I'd hope they'd share their concerns. To say anything more is to place scrutiny where it does not belong.

On the subject of dishonesty and scrutiny -- "Convincing lie" is within tolerances relative to only being a 2nd level feat, you aren't going to get many, if any, more except from hosts -- and for my money I think it's more than a fair trade for Breadth of Knowledge -- with the boosts to knowledge and professional competencies doing as much, if not more, to making your lies believable. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. Make your choice.

Also: I'd like to share an idea I had while pondering the mobile brain in jar thing.

A beast focusing on Physical stats that has an openable skull. In order to process high-level cognitive stuff, he must obtain and insert brains into his own head. His method of doing so is catching some poor critter, smashing its lower body to bloody bits, cracking the skull like a walnut, and extracting the brain. He then places his new mind into his own head. How long it lasts varies. Bonus time/intellegence/residual knowledge if he kills and stashes a full tribe/village/city in his head.
If Mr. MPC doesn't want this idea, I claim it as backup in case Abrasax dies. :)

This idea seems quite viable for a Physical-stat heavy build. Not really traditional to base theme, and it might be giving up a lot (traditional hijacking would give you the full profile of the original creature, including INT. Just stealing the brain... would you get physical abilities like gaze weapons or natural weapons/armor? Why pass on that stuff? It's suitable grotesque, and I'd likely allow it -- but that is something to think about.

Aye-Aye, cap'n.

See in Darkness just makes it so one sees normally in all types of darkness, even deeper darkness.

Maybe it's more something like a link/empathy thing that pushes ideas and suggestions at someone.

My stat block wasn't up because I spent most of the week traveling for work. Been a crazy week. I was trying to wrap my mind around anything.

CE Small or Medium Outsider(???)
STR: 3
DEX: 16
CON: 3
INT: 16
WIS: 18
CHA: 16

See in Darkness: Why should the darkness bother me, I'm not just any shadow, i'm THE SHADOW.

Suggestion: Starts out as Images and vauge ideas to plant in the mind of a potential host. Best used to draw them to where I can be.

Light Weakness: Extremely bright light, is not only blinding, but acts like a dismissal on a failed save, sending me to a random place of pure darkness. Seriously random location. Extreme bright light also weakens the bond, if currently hijacking.

Still working on things... But i think this is part of what I had idea wise. It's at least something to look at. I'll try to do more tomorrow when I've had the mysterious thing called sleep. Remember, this is like a v.05 I wouldn't even call it a v1 yet.

So far I think all of this is highly doable. If you go medium I'd give you more potential for a non-corporeal ability, for small it would be very sparing in desperate situations until improved.

The CON/STR softness gives me faith that the concept is suitably (extremely) disadvantaged outside of a host. As you say you have more you want to do with it, but I'm glad we already have at least 4 people who are almost ready to begin.

What are your thoughts so far for type. Should we all be a custom Outsider (X) for simplicity?

All for simplicity. Please. Working title "Thing that should not be" :D

I am doing my best to be flexible so that players have "Racial" abilities and powers that are in the spirit of their concept. However when I fist mused about this campaign, I didn't have a creature type in mind because I thought it contravened the most basic concept of the game -- DR, defenses and immunities would make hijackers tough to the point they wouldn't fear discovery.

The players have their own perception as to the nature of their being -- but my view has been that a being from the dark tapestry could quite possibly, in this context, have no special profile for subtype -- because they winnowed down their essences, and altered their abhorrent nature out of necessity because to enter Golarion emblematic of whence they came would literally be lethal -- they exist in rejection of all that should be.

But Choon, like so many other brilliant things you seem to say, responding to you as a mental exercise seems to bear fruit once again.
To which I say, Go ahead -- pick some of those powers. Go ahead. We'll negotiate.

To the extent a concept is "insufficiently" muted, or the hijackers are unsubtle (as they know they needn't be) -- the more distinct the magical/psychic trail of breadcrumbs leads to them. Think of it as an unknown and unquantifiable thermometer. If the mercury rises too far, too fast -- Groups and personalities in the world are going to have quests of their own to kill the protagonists and smash the Cathexis.

Lets just get our characters tidied up, and we can actually get to the business of having some fun playing. I'm already on the case filling profiles, When that's done I'll let people know what additional stuff I'll need (stuff like languages, if there are more skill points to spend, that sort of thing) then I'll post individual players profiles as I have them.

Punctum Caveat Emptor (Point Buyers Beware!)

Does that mean you have all you need until you get done tinkering with us in hero lab?

For those who've given me stat-blocks I think so. If you have revisions or secondary ideas, feel free to chime in. Playing boardgames tonight so I might not be able to get done until Sunday afternoon, but I'm on the case. Thanking everyone for their input.

(Kana's sent me info but has explained they are not "done" -- still going to do what I can with the data I've got... once I have 2 or 3 people complete, and they're willing, I'll drop those players into the world and that'll be incentive for stragglers to get all ducks in a row if they want to participate, until we hit what I imagine is capacity.

The initial surrounding area for the adventure is adequately dressed to give players room to stomp around, even if they don't have an agenda of their own yet -- that, mercifully, has progressed at a clip actually faster than I anticipated. I may salt a few more of the sought after critters -- but plenty are already there -- and I'll adapt on the fly to new information.

Thanks for asking Choon!

Awesomeness!

After some thinking and sleep and some thinking, may i use one of the tiefling variant abilities?

Based on the concept of telepathy, and I like the idea that as a shadow I lake the ability to talk aloud. I was thinking a combination of things.

From the tiefling alternate racial abilities:
Telepathy: You can communicate telepathically with any sentient creature with which you are in contact.

This could be used in conjunction with Suggestion. I have no problem with limiting the telepathy to languages I know. Perhaps as things progress, the ability increases in power. But I can only actually 'Talk' when I am in contact, but perhaps Suggestion is from afar? since it is more limited?

Void Form: I'm not fully incorporeal (Yet) Allowing me to slip though cracks, but I cannot physically manipulate objects.

Traits:
Silent Hunter: +1 to Stealth and stealth is always a class skill
???

Will Hijacking be a touch? or do our targets just make a save? Did I miss that in anything earlier? Just want to know before I go for that other trait. Trying to decide between two feats and what my other trait should be. I'll work on getting skills together and formatting a statblock for you. Just down to the last couple things.

Mine is definitely touch. I'm not so sure 'touch' is well defined for you, Kana. I'd say posession for you would be possession of their shadow instead of their actual selves. Still, your concept makes my head spin, so Vicon's a better person to answer.

That's why I asked because mine is more targeted at their shadow. Would it even be touch? Or would it just be a save? Because I am for the shadow.

IMHO, save on possession of shadow.

Just checking in on activity and hitting back before ducking back into HeroLab. A couple of things:

EVERYONE: If you have the advanced races guide, I am using a loose 20 point custom race for each person's character. If you are familiar or have access to the ARG, refine your concept or think of ideas for current/progression powers based on the info there. If you are NOT familiar to the advanced races guide -- I think it would HELP A LOT if you made a quick thread in rules questions or advise and asked for help designing your custom race. Even if you don't get all the info you need/want, the answers you could get fairly quickly may help a lot in citing existing rules for your character then us trying to work it all out from scratch. I'm a good way into Choon's char, and when I am done with each char I'll ask for a fill info on the blanks, not just on language and skills, but potentially race points. think about it. Worst case we'll hash it out.

POSSESSION: (Kana was asking) -- after looking through the rules, I think Hijacking should be treated as an at-will Magic Jar as a Spell-like ability, with some modifications:

Possession: Spell-like ability (akin to Magic Jar) 3/day*
*(can be improved)

Action Economy: Full round Action

Range Touch, unless concept would suggest otherwise.

Target: one creature

Save DC : 10 + Player CR + Attribute Modifier*
*The attribute modifier for possession is chosen by the player (but must be substantiated by logic)

Duration: Indefinite until expelled. Particularly strong hosts may survive the hijacking process, especially if it is brief. Longer occupation, and wear and tear during possession may render an abdicated host extremely weak, incapacitated, or dead. If a hijacker is seriously threatened or similarly compromised while attached to a host, the host at GM's discretion may give it an additional saving throw to break the bond.

Saving Throw: Will/Fort/Ref* negates; see text; Spell Resistance: (TBD)

(a hijacker's posession may target will, fort, or dex -- depending on the nature of the hijacking creature, which player can indicate preference subject to approval. Generally, attacks on the mind, soul, or other unsubstantial aspect is a will save. If the hijacking is physically invasive (a worm in your ear) or infectious (germ), it takes a fort save, if the method involves restraint or direct physical contact (like a "Thing" or "Bug" hijacker type) it is likely Reflex.
*Negotiate save type(s) during character creation.

Should a victim fail their respective save, You may then assert your control over the Hijacked victim. Leaving a host is normally AT LEAST a full round action, unless an Escape Artist check is made with the DC determined by the GM (the longer the possession, the more sudden the decision, and fit the host, the longer it may take to separate) At the point of departure the strain on the host will be assessed and the host may be incapacitated or be left a lifeless husk. However, if the occupation was brief or the host is powerful, this may be mitigated. (If you ask before you separate you will likely know the risks, if any, and can make an informed decision.)

Using Diplomacy, Bluff, or Intimidate it is possible, potentially, to get a creature to submit to being possessed. the number of successes and DC for taking possession in this manner typically ranges from 15-20, but character circumstance and the nature of the creature may modify the roll. The creature must of course understand the hijacker, and either be convinced by the hijacker (DIP), Tricked (Bluff), or Cowed (Intimidate) before it then lets the hijacker take control.

The basic criteria for a suitable host is that of magic jar. A host does not necessarily be living, but it must be corporeal and sentient. Ie: A demon is fair game, and a ghoul though undead is fair game. A skeleton is not sentient, nor is a golem -- so they cannot be hijacked.

You normally can only possess a creature of equal or lower CR. Attempts on a creature 1 CR higher is possible, though unlikely and subject to mitigating circumstances. If you wish to attempt, discuss with me to make informed decision.

Attempting to possess a body is a full-round action. It is blocked by protection from evil or a similar ward. You possess the body and completely sublimate it's will unless the subject succeeds on a Will save. Failure to take over the host may either confer a bonus to it's next saving throw, or even an automatic success (as is typical of magic jar)

If you are successful, you occupy the host body, and the host's will is sublimated. The hijacker retains the profile of the host creature, with any attributes it has superior to that profile overriding the host's stat-block. For all intents and purposes the hijacker is now the host, assuming all of it's powers and abilities (unlike magic jar) -- but can use none of it's own powers until leaving the host. Note that the more extreme the difference between the hijacker's migrated attributes and it's own, the greater (and faster) the wear and tear on a host will be. All hijackers deteriorate and eventually kill their hosts, warranting another. Proper care and limiting wear and tear will extend the time a host is viable.

A body with extra limbs DOES allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You CAN choose to activate the body's extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The creature's spells and spell-like abilities DO stay with the body.

If the host body is slain, you control reverts to your hijacker form (you are effectively inert while bonded to a host) -- leaving your host is typically a full round action, but a standard action if the hijacker succeeds an Escape Artist check with DC determined by GM (relative to how long and how invasive occupation has been)

return to the magic jar, if within range, and the life force of the host departs (it is dead). If the host body is slain beyond the range of the spell, both you and the host die. Any life force with nowhere to go is treated as slain.

SHORTHAND: (Choon was far more succinct)

Hijackers may immediately attempt to take over a creature's mind as Magic Jar except that they retain use of any extraordinary, supernatural, spell-like abilities, feats, and spellcasting the target may have. The target gets a Will/Fort/Reflex save at DC = 10 + Player CR + Player's favored Attribute (chosen during creation) to negate the effect, but is not subsequently immune.

Hijackers must wait 1 turn (10 combat rounds) before attempting to possess that same person again.