Hello. Sorry it took me so long check in- as Korinne mentioned I had a death in the family and have had virtually no time on the boards for a few days. I'm definitely interested in this game but I'm just starting to GM a new game (like hoping to open gameplay tonight or tomorrow morning) and if you're willing I'd love to wait a few days before I commit, just to make sure I'm not overextending myself?
If that's ok, I'm not sure what I'd make but maybe I can see how Galorit's character comes together before I decide?
We are closing in on the wrap of book 1 and there is some transition work to do to move to book 2 - most notably, setting up the kingdom. We can probably take that as a role-playing couple of days and give everyone a chance to get situated.
Wow, thanks for all the suggestions and analysis, guys!
After some consideration I believe I will take Jesse's kindness and go the Iron Priest route. It's exactly the kind of flavor I wanted. I don't expect there to be clockwork stuff or the like, and will probably not pick up any ranks in Craft: Clockwork, though Vallen may construct other types of golems in the future. I'll think about the Open Minded Feat- feats are precious few for clerics.
Healer and Skill-monkey needed: I'd like to remember you that we are down to three players, and we are looking for two more... I believe there is no real need for you to try to fill the two roles by yourself. Also I'd not really worry about your dwarf being able to deal damage, since by supporting/buffing our more combat oriented PCs, you'll for sure deal more damage on the long run.
I agree Carinna, I don't want to stretch myself too thin. Dipping into firearms will give him at least a little bite when everyone is already buffed/healed. I'll consider how many ranged feats he will actually get (point-blank shot, precise shot, and rapid reload, mostly).
If you want to do clockwork stuff, I'll make it happen. The PCs have already encountered one NPC (Ralan, aka Tiger) who was added to the adventure because of their backstories, and there is more to come (including the explanation in-game for why Telmarni has to leave the group, which in turn will precipitate a later side quest.)
But yeah, figure out who your cleric is and what you want him to do, then focus on doing it well.
Jesse, how do you feel about the extent of the Profession: Architecture skill for designing cities, roads, etc, and not just buildings? Or would this fall under Profession: Engineering instead? I would say that Architecture would be used to design a bridge, while Engineering would be used to build it.
What is your take on Profession: Architecture vs Profession: Engineering, essentially? Just trying to prioritize skills.
I'll think about the clockwork stuff, that's quite kind of you! It doesn't immediately appeal to me, though. Building a city, or having a team of engineers, does.
If you remember PF's 3e roots, Knowledge (architecture & engineering) was just one skill. I suspect PF shortened the name just as a convenience. It's a background skill, so if you put ranks into Knowledge (engineering), the abstraction of the game is that you know how to do both - architecture (aesthetic design) and engineering (practicalities of constructing something that will stand up).
These skills won't necessarily change the BP cost of things, but they can impact the overall design of your city, and I might give you input from time to time about things that can influence your choices - like opportunities to go quarry marble from somewhere to help build a better noble villa, etc. (Basically, side adventures that will earn BP for certain structures.)
I guess this also bleeds into the discussion of the difference between Craft, Profession, and Knowledge. Craft makes a finished product. Knowledge provides actionable information about a topic. Profession is, sadly, written a bit more broadly; it gives you broad vocational aptitude. So Knowledge (engineering) gives you information about the best materials to use, how to draft plans, and what will make an aesthetically pleasing design. Profession (engineer) is more hands-on, dealing with the actual construction and handling the practical problems that come up. And of course that all ties in with stuff like Craft (carpentry) and Craft (stonemasonry), which are used to make the specific, finished products like walls and stairs.
Personally I would keep these in your background skill list; a cleric is starved enough for skills that you don't want to dip into your adventuring skills for ranks in these.
so, that's a tacit "yes" on taking a couple days?
also, have you guys talked at all about future 'leadership roles' at all? showing up with the reinforcements, I could see making a character with ambitions of claiming a specific role but I wouldn't want to step on any of the other characters' toes...
Feel free to take your time. You'll get rolled in when a certain break point hits, which is still going to take a few in-game weeks. It's likely the team will do a little exploring before they go back to Oleg's and move on to book 2, which is where you guys would come in.
We haven't had a serious discussion about leadership roles, but it seems likely that Carinna will take the Ruler role, Korinne is probably a good fit for Magister or Treasurer, and Cassie will probably wind up as a Marshal, Warden, or General. At present none of the remaining PCs are really bent toward Spymaster, Grand Diplomat, or High Priest roles.
We'll have to fill in a lot of roles with NPC's to avoid penalties.
That's great, thanks Jesse! Really helped me trim up my selected skills. Vallen won't be so much of a skill monkey as just focused on a certain set of mechanical skills.
I actually think iron priest will work well with guns. Vallen can use alchemical cartridges (paper) for his loads, which reduce the amount of time to load a gun but increase the misfire chance. Misfires give the gun the broken condition, but because he can spontaneously cast Make Whole it's not a big issue. This also means i don't need to take the Rapid Reload feat early on, though it does stack and can reduce loading an early two-handed firearm to a move action!
When selecting my starting equipment would you like me to pay full price for my firearm or the crafted (half) price?
Feats wise, i believe i will go:
1: point-blank shot
3: precise shot
5: craft wondrous magic item
7: craft magic arms and armor
9: most likely Rapid reload to take advantage of Full Attack, especially if we find Advanced firearms. Alternative is Craft Wands
11: Craft Construct (this is the point where crafting constructs is feasible)
I'll think about the rest when we get there :p
By level 7 we'll be wanting to seriously consider making our own magic items most likely, and won't have the real funds to do so until then.
Of course this can all be regulated to npcs, but it's more fun if i get to roll the spellcraft checks!
Cassandra: I may go Abadar to solve our high priest problem, but I'm slightly reluctant to do so because devotion to Torag is a core part of Vallen's personality. Now, if we could have a Chief Engineer position...
I think Cassandra is the only Erastilian so even an Adabarian as high priest wouldn't be bad. We might be able to convince Jhod to be the high priest. The two gods that fit best are Adabar and Erastil.
But we can cross that bridge when we get there and I hope we can do it in character. I am also hoping that the DM expands upon the how we get BP for the kingdom using something like THIS. Do some wheeling and dealing to get that 50 BP or perhaps more. I'd like to add some RP to that too.
Off the top of my head I have a few ideas (assuming I will be able to handle the time commitment):
- an angelkin aasimar paladin of Abadar. simple greatsword build for a beefy frontliner and face. well suited for ruler, councilor, general, grand diplomat, high priest, or warden.
- a musetouched aasimar bard. mostly a support character and face (could probably work in trapfinding if people really want). well suited for councilor, grand diplomat, magister, spymaster, or treasurer.
- a tiefling eldritch archer magus. a fairly straightforward ranged damage dealer with some utility spells and knowledges. well suited for magister, marshal, royal assassin*, spymaster, or treasurer.
- a human headed for dragon disciple... this would probably work best if the DM is open to working with me to create/adapt a bloodrager VMC option? I'd probably start out either wyrm singer skald or oracle (with racial heritage [kobold] and scaled disciple). he'd be kind of a backup/utility guy- secondary melee, secondary caster, some heals, face skills, some buffs. could be a ruler but probably better as general or warden.
Any thoughts on any of these?
Off the top of my head I have a few ideas (assuming I will be able to handle the time commitment):
- an angelkin aasimar paladin of Abadar. simple greatsword build for a beefy frontliner and face. well suited for ruler, councilor, general, grand diplomat, high priest, or warden.
- a musetouched aasimar bard. mostly a support character and face (could probably work in trapfinding if people really want). well suited for councilor, grand diplomat, magister, spymaster, or treasurer.
- a tiefling eldritch archer magus. a fairly straightforward ranged damage dealer with some utility spells and knowledges. well suited for magister, marshal, royal assassin*, spymaster, or treasurer.
- a human headed for dragon disciple... this would probably work best if the DM is open to working with me to create/adapt a bloodrager VMC option? I'd probably start out either wyrm singer skald or oracle (with racial heritage [kobold] and scaled disciple). he'd be kind of a backup/utility guy- secondary melee, secondary caster, some heals, face skills, some buffs. could be a ruler but probably better as general or warden.Any thoughts on any of these?
That's nice but do any of them have a personality yet? We can figure out the build after figuring out who they are.
- The paladin would be fairly serious. Friendly enough, to be sure, but he's on a sacred mission to deliver the gift of civilization to these wild lands. He's not motivated by a desire for power but he recognizes that power is a valuable (even necessary) tool for building a fair and just nation and will gladly accept whatever power is offered to him in order that he might use it to that end. He is naturally very honest and can sometimes be a bit too trusting.
- The bard is of a noble family- one without much real influence, but with enough resources to live quite comfortably. He is no stranger to intrigue and court politics, but he prefers fun and frivolity to either. As the youngest of seven sons he stands to inherit virtually nothing and so he has accepted the opportunity to head into the newly forming nation in order to secure a suitable position for himself (and hopefully have some fun in the process).
- The magus is something of an introvert. He values intellect greatly and generally considers his own opinion the most important one unless there is someone else present who has displayed significant intelligence as well. Growing up as a tiefling has forced him to be something of a pragmatist and, while he is certainly not a ruthless or a 'bad' guy, he definitely weighs the expected outcome of an action very heavily in decision making.
- The dragon disciple idea is probably the most nebulous... I think he'd be pretty friendly but also a bit of a hothead. There's a power growing in his blood that he can sense but can't fully control. His motivation for adventuring would largely be self-discovery/mastery and the whole kingdom building aspect would probably be sort of secondary for him compared to finding opportunities to test and develop his abilities.
@Galorit
If you're concerned about the High Priest position, Vallen could always go for the Councilor position, which lets him add Wisdom to stuff. The Councilor role is basically the peoples' advocate, serving as an intermediary between the people and the rulers. Jhod could serve as a High Priest though of course any NPC is going to occasionally "do their own thing" which can be... let's say fun.
@nate lange
I think we have a pretty good spread of capabilities so there's a lot of wiggle room for your various concepts. The paladin is nice because we don't really have a heavy tank, but most of the party members are chaotic, so there would be some friction there. The aasimar bard could be good as well in a strong support role (though of course there are lots of archetypes that change how the bard works in a party); from a RP perspective bards are usually great additions because they tend to be very "out there," garrulous, and involved. The pragmatic magus could fill a much-needed spot in the role of spymaster or enforcer; I'd expect to see a significant amount of uh... discussion with the party over the correct course of action with things like bandit prisoners (so far, the group's been pretty lenient, because of their Good tendencies). I think the dragon disciple is probably the most difficult to integrate; kobold is an unusual heritage and being less-involved in the kingdom side of things means it's a little harder to get him integrated with the party goals.
That was kind of my read too... I guess I was really looking more for people's personal preferences?
Ladies? Any preferences with nate's proposals?
I have read a significant amount of the AP because I was going to run it IRL. So I know that a line like this "will gladly accept whatever power is offered to him in order that he might use it to that end." makes him a good target for some enemies. Monkey's paw, sheep's clothing, etc.
Considering the time at which he comes in, the bard would fit well as most of us are likely bad at politics. Good chose for a diplomat. A guide and counselor for contracts and political moves coming from the north.
The magus teifling fits the theme we had going. The three that left were a witch, a strix and a half-orc. Sure the witch was human but witches in general are looked down upon as are half-breeds and monstrous races. When Telmani and Kavalina leave it will just be me representing the uncommon folk.
For the last, I think without any strong motivation to be part of the leadership of a fledgling kingdom, he'd be out of place. It's a big aspect of the game and a probably a big factor in Brevoy's candidate selection process.
Councilor sounds like a really good role for Vallen, perhaps that will be his calling.
When selecting my starting equipment would you like me to pay full price for my firearm or the crafted (half) price?
Crafted price.
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I was initially reluctant about the paladin idea, since I imagine he would not add too much... Carinna doesn't have a high amount of life points, but her AC is quite high, as well as her damage output, but considering our cleric will be a ranged one, Korinna also being ranged, and Cassandra possibly focusing more and more on her longbow, that would leave Carinna as the sole melee, which generally translates into flanking and dead :(, so the paladin would be really nice!
The bard is also a great addition, and I make the GM's words as my own.
I'm more reluctant to the last two ideas, simply because it would add more to our already heavy ranged power, which means we would be a monster in open battles, but quite crippled inside dungeons/buildings.
Once we have a week for down time I think I will trade Stalker for barbarian and utilize claws more so I can be an effective switch hitter. That or switch up the maneuvers known. Go for the melee oriented ones as the stance adds a decent amount of damage already. No idea when I finally will get Rapid shot. Probably 6 or seven. Level 5 is Boon Companion.
If I did the bard I was thinking vanilla (no archetype). I could, I suppose, switch to angelkin aasimar with the arcane duelist archetype for more frontline if people are worried about that... although, the paladin would obviously be a better frontliner.
I happened across this while looking at magical equipment:
Ornery Pistol
Slot none; Aura strong transmutation; CL 12th; Weight 4 lbs.
This pistol acts as a normal +2 pistol, but it has a strange aversion to talk of peace. Anytime the wielder or an ally within line of sight that the wielder can hear attempts to improve a creature's initial attitude with the Diplomacy skill, without spending an action, the pistol leaps into the wielder's hand and takes a single shot at the creature the wielder or ally is using Diplomacy against. If the wielder or ally is attempting to affect multiple creatures, the gun shoots a random member of the group. This occurs even if the pistol is unloaded, as the pistol's curse magically loads itself with a normal bullet and black powder when the action is taken.
Intended Magic Item
any pistol
Hahahahahahaha I love it.
Unfortunately I developed an excruciating tooth problem the past two days that is preventing me from sleeping more than what seems like a few minutes at a time.
I have a severe phobia of medical needles and a unhealthy dose of dental anxiety, which translates to me having to be tranquilized and then completely anesthetized whenever I need work done on my mouth.
These sessions usually take longer to schedule than regular dentist visits so i don't know how long it'll take for me to get it fixed. The fatigue and anxiety is likely to make me irritable and I apologize if I treat anyone poorly. Maybe I can find some drugs to fix my problems in the short term. For added fun, over the counter painkillers don't work on me, and come to think if it most anesthetics don't either.
Melodrama summarized: I'll still be working on Vallen, but it may not be as high of quality as I'd like. I apologize if i slow things down or take a while rewritimg stuff.
So, that wasn't exactly decisive but it sounds like the bard is the most popular option? I'll start working on him but feel free to continue to offer suggestions and/or feedback.
@Galorit
Don't worry, we are still in the wrap up phase and it looks like it will take a few real-time days for the group to get back to Oleg's and get new recruits.
@nate lange
It sounds like people are leaning toward the bard or paladin, so really it's "what do you think you will have fun playing out of those choices?" at this point.
Well, there's definitely a part of me that really digs the idea of playing a nigh-unkillable melee heavy... but there's another (maybe bigger?) part that hates the idea of playing a character with like 2 skills, especially in a game like this...
I've started building the bard. Once he's done we can take a look and see if he seems like a good fit or if I should explore something else.
I'll be out of town this weekend, back Monday!
I have just finished Vallen! (right as the gm leaves, of course)
Please feel free to check the character sheet for any errors. All feedback is welcome.
I may have went a little overboard on the backstory and such... I included some of the events the previous campaign Vallen was in.
So, this is Nate's bard. I have no fluff typed up but most of the crunch is done... the thing is, he has very little combat ability (beyond improving everyone else's combat ability). I'm concerned that for this party maybe I should rearrange things to be better in that regard?
Thoughts?
I have went down the same road before, Auric. Bards can become potent ranged or melee supports with the right build. My bard Astrianna went down the ranged route if you want to look at the build.
Otherwise, play what you think will be fun!
Maybe if we're all ranged we can just kill anything before it gets to us...
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@Auric: I don't think you should really worry about this. Cassandra and Carinna will be built mostly for combat, so if you can assist them, there is no need for you to be the one doing any damage directly. Aside from Inspire Courage, you could also assist in combat by Flanking or using Aid Another, which besides the small bonus, could be the difference between a hit and a miss...
If you go towards the flanking route, perhaps it could be a good idea for you to grab a shield, to boost your AC... if you prefer the aid another, perhaps a whip or a longspear is really helpful (or a shield and a whip, even if it looks a bit comical IMO).
Part of the reason I left one hand free is because I'm assuming that by 5th level we'd have some kind of nation planted and I could take the flagbearer feat. Buying a shield (which I have plenty of money for) was one of the minor tweaks I was considering for if people thought only small changes were needed.
I could just suck up the low number of skills and build the pally instead... people seemed more interested his mechanics anyways... if I switched him to a funner god I could keep most of the fluff from the bard (which seemed the more popular part of him)... thoughts?
edit: I think I could take Shelyn, Arshea, or Halcamora as a pally and have the background/personality I described for the bard (possibly even take bard VMC). Alternatively, I could do a tiefling paladin who follows Ragathiel... this would be the most mechanically powerful melee option, and could still be very outgoing, but it would definitely be a different background and personality?
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Well, if you intend to go for the paladin, I believe you could go Shelyn since it represents a bard pretty well.
If you are worried about the low skill points, there is also the Tortured Crusader, even if you'd be a pretty different character of course.
I, honestly, have no references between the bard or the paladin. Pick whatever you feel it would be funnier (the most important rule).
I'm having a little trouble settling into a character that really feels unique (as compared to the stable of other characters I'm playing right now). The bards not bad but I'm worried he'll play too much like my other skills character... I don't have a really devout character right now, so I'm probably not going to go that direction... obviously I'm not going to make a cleric since the other new guy is, but I think I will go with some kind of paladin. I have the Abadaran I mentioned before, and a tiefling follower of Ragathiel (seeking to earn redemption from his heritage by helping establish a good kingdom out of the stolen lands), or I might do something completely different...
Sorry, for all the indecision. I'm usually not this bad, I'm just low on creative energy right now because of everything going on in RL. I welcome any feedback (and can share more about any ideas on request).
A paladin of Ragathiel would be fine, though the (stock) tiefling hit to Charisma is a bit painful vis-a-vis your paladin abilities. Thematically the connection between a tiefling seeking personal redemption and a patron empyreal lord who is trying to fight against the Fall is a strong story angle. Also, bastard sword as your deity's favored weapon is turbostrong for front-line melee (though you'd still have to spend a feat on it - paladins don't get proficiency with their deity's favored weapon the way that clerics do!).
Arshea is a bit more of a character that needs consent from the party, because of the subject matter. I don't object, but it depends on how the group feels. I have a bardic (arcane healer) follower of Arshea in another group. Paladin would be harder just because paladins tend to focus on heavy armor and the Arshean divine obedience chain assumes that you will be wearing no armor eventually.
If you really can't make up your mind, you could always multiclass. Bards don't have an alignment restriction in PF so you don't need to worry about the Lawful requirement like you did back in 3.x. My first PFS character was a half-orc bard/paladin. Good Charisma synergy, strong melee, inspire courage made up for the BAB deficiency from bard levels, strong saves (Fort from paladin, Ref/Will from bard, +divine grace), wide selection of utility/buff magic.
The above suggestion of a Shelynite paladin means you're probably using a glaive, so reach weapon with no shield (unless you get a buckler and go for Unhindering Shield); this would be a character who supports from the second rank, occasionally using Lay on Hands to heal the front liners (Carinna and Cassie, most likely).
If you really want to play a paladin but you are just hung up on these not clicking, some more unconventional possibilities include:
* Gray paladin/barbarian (gray paladin archetype lets you be NG instead of LG) - just weird enough on its own
* Paladin of Kelinahat, the Empyreal Lord of intelligence gathering in a good context. Take the Tempered Champion archetype to ditch your spells in exchange for escalating your damage with the deity's favored weapon of shortsword, with an eye toward becoming a Spymaster for the kingdom.
* Paladin of Erastil, with a bow, doing archery support - there are ways to get ranged smite, I'm pretty sure.
* Paladin of Andoletta as a "protector of the flock," use your feats to go down the chain of quarterstaff-enhancing feats (such as quarterstaff master).
Hope I'm not overloading you with choice paralysis here.
No- part of the problem is that I'm already way too familiar with all the options, so you're actually helping me narrow things down a bit. I was looking at VMC options too... for the paladin of Ragathiel I was going to take VMC barbarian (it has no alignment restrictions), and for the shelynite I was thinking maybe VMC bard .
If I made the tiefling I thought I'd use the pitborn variant, if that's alright?
Another thing I was thinking about was the zealot archetype for the vigilante... it's almost like a multiclass paladin/inquisitor on its own.
Out of curiosity, how do the other party members feel about a paladin (or zealot) of Arshea?
Pitborn is fine.
For the other players who don't know, Arshea is basically a sex god(dess). (Safe for work link.)
I'm sorry, but Arshea sounds like a really narcissistic version of Shelyn. Sex and physical beauty? PathfinderWiki is not helping either.
This liberation applies to many of Arshea's worshipers, who often choose to ignore conventional gender identities, eventually choosing one that fits them best.
She is Tumblr. No thanks.
I think Arshea's a little more nuanced than that, but veto's a veto.
Had I made a paladin of Arshea, struggling with gender identity would not have been part of the concept but her celestial obedience requires you to 'achieve release, alone or with a partner' everyday, so a veto is completely understandable.
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If you are looking for something different and considering the known tie between this AP and the Fey, how about a paladin of one of the Eldest? Both Magdh and Imbrex are LN, so they would, in theory, allow paladins.
Arshea might look a bit weird, but perhaps Lymnieris could be a bit less sexual version of Arshea.
Another idea could be a different kind of paladin, instead of the confident warriors, perhaps a coward young man who got caught by the 'calling', by taking the Chosen One archetype and worshiping Jaidz.
Oooh a paladin/bard multiclass sounds really cool, I've never considered that before. I may steal that idea for a future character...
As for gods, Abadar is always justifiable in some way. We're bringing civilization to the backwater in this case. Bardic knowledge also makes a lot of sense there. I have to say I do love me some inspire courage.
Jesse, does Vallen look okay if you've had time to go over him?