Discussion thread!
First topic: pre-campaign PC connections. Which of you knew each other before this moot, and how? I'm focusing especially on the relations between the two Witchwolf b#$*$es we have as well as the two Coldborn, but I'm interested to hear other PC connections as well, even inter-tribal.
Throwing a barrage of information in here so that I don't lose / forget it.
The secular Bloodmarked are the most intellectual of the tribes, being the only tribe that has officially dedicated itself to learning and understanding more about the world around them. They work closely with the wealthy Seascarred tribe in their pursuit of greater delving into science and magic. The Bloodmarked even have a school system inside the Calphiak mountains, though they regularly must fight off incursions from the more hostile inhabitants of the Darklands.
The Bloodmarked seek open and friendly relations with all other tribes, but their strange fetish rituals and blood orgies cause the other tribes - with the exception of the Nightskulk and the Seascarred - to look askance at them.
They live in the Calphiak mountain ranges and the Mierani Forest.
Coldborn tribe: Generally the coldborn only gather as a tribe for matters of dire importance; most coldborn families are self-sufficient. However, Temmeruk is the oldest and wisest of the coldborn, and speaks for the tribe when it is necessary, having the final say on disputes.
The Coldborn are a peace-loving tribe, and have the highest concentration of druids and rangers of any of the tribes. Coldborn healers are renowned among the tribes for their intimate knowledge of biology. They mainly keep to themselves, but will welcome any member of any tribe into their borders with only gentle warnings about bad behavior. The Coldborn are the oldest tribe, with history dating back beyond record, and so their voice is highly respected by most of the other tribes. The Witchwolves feel that they're too passive and reluctant to use their strength, and the Scaleheart consider them to be ruled by fear of involvement in the outside world.
The Coldborn live on the Storval Plateau.
Ragebred tribe: The Ragebred rule by strength. There are two boars in charge of the clan, the Chief and the Under-Chief. Only the Under-Chief may challenge the Chief for his position, but anyone may challenge the Under-Chief for his position.
The Ragebred are an insular people, mistrusting outsiders - even other skinwalkers, though relations are better with them. If a wereboar-kin is born into a human family elsewhere in the world, 9 times out of 10 they are cast out when their transformations occur. Their porcine features call demons to mind among some religious communities in the world, and so the Ragebred justly feel that their tribe is the sole haven where a wereboarkin can live free of judgment and persecution. This persecution complex has sparked intense pride in the Ragebred. To slight a Ragebred's honor or family is to invite instant death. The one tribe that the Ragebred regularly do dealings with is the Coldborn, whose quiet dignity appeals to the proud wereboars, and the Nightskulk, who, they feel, understand being persecuted.
The Ragebred control the Gnasher mountain range and Lake Skotha, all the way to Lampblack River Falls.
Scaleheart tribe: the Scaleheart tribe is a true democracy - all decisions that affect the entire tribe are voted on by the entire tribe. This means that most decisions take a prohibitively long time to officially decide on, leading most day-to-day governing decisions to be placed in the hands of the shamans of the community, of which there are 9, with one High Shaman. These spiritual leaders claim to have a direct conduit to the Gods and rule with divine authority.
The Scaleheart are a deeply religious community. They don't like to travel often, as they are most comfortable among the waterways of their home, but Scaleheart missionaries have been found preaching all over Varisia and greater Golarion. The Witchwolves embrace the spirituality of the Scaleheart wholeheartedly, as do the Coldborn, but the Bloodmarked are not a very religious people overall. This has led to relationships between the tribes to be very...strained. As a result of the geographical differences between the two tribes, they largely leave each other alone. Some Scalehearts follow the Fanglords on their nomadic journeys when the caravans of the were-tigers pass by their homes.
The scaleheart live primarily in the Mindspin and Wyvern mountains, near the few rivers and lakes of the Cinderlands.
Nightskulk tribe: The Nightskulk tribe has largely integrated into the human culture, and remains a loose organization of enormous family units. Though the Nightskulk are not ashamed of their heritage, most do hide it in the presence of humans to avoid persecutions, and as a result the ratfolk-kin do not have an open "seat of government" like the other tribes do. Most of the skinwalkers spend their days living largely human lives in the towns bordering the wilderness. However, the nightskulk tribe is also one of the wealthiest of the skinwalker tribes, due to their connections to the merchant guilds of the outside world.
The Nightskulk are a pragmatic tribe. Their natural cunning, as well as their knowledge of how people treat were-rats, has led the majority of them to live secret, double lives. Most humans along the southerly port towns of Varisia would be shocked at how many of their neighbors, friends and co-workers are actually nightskulks in disguise. Those few wererat-kin who could not conceal their identities correctly operate out of a small area in the outskirts of Riddleport, but these wererat-kin are not held in high esteem by their more secretive brethren. The Ragebred empathize with the prosecution that Nightskulks face, and surprisingly, get along famously with the wererat-kin, being closest to them as allies. Most other tribes, however, mistrust the Nightskulk just as much as normal humans would, a position that most Nightskulk feel to be unfair.
Still, the Nightskulk are successful at business and trade, both legal and illegal, and your average Nightskulk is wealthier than almost any other member of the other tribes (with the possible exception of the Seascarred). The Nightskulk can be found in nearly every town across Varisia, but inhabit Riddleport primarily.
Seascarred tribe: The Seascarred live on the coast, as one might imagine, and are perhaps the most technologically advanced of the skinwalker tribes. They have a hereditary Chieftain who adoped the reins of leadership from his deceased father. The Seascarred regularly can be found among the crews and even in the captains' quarters of pirate ships roaming the Inner Sea region, and the rumors persist that they do so under explicit protection from the Ruling Chief, who benefits from the raids these privateers commit.
The Seascarred are largely criminals and pirates, going so far as to call their Chieftain the Pirate King of Rimeskull. In the Steaming Sea and the Varisian Bay, traders and merchants are ever on the alert for the Fanged Skull flag, a variant on the traditional Jolly Roger with curved fishbones and sharp teeth. The influence the Pirate King has over the legitimate rulers of Rimeskull is an open secret in Varisia.
The seascarred live primarily in the northlands near the coast, from Rimeskull to Crystilan.
Fanglord tribe: The Fanglords inhabit the widest area of the Riverlands and are largely nomadic. Their tribe's yearly roaming cycle takes them all throughout Varisia together. The Fanglords have an elected council of 5 Fanglords, known as the Tiger's Claw, make all the decisions for them, which is re-nominated every 6 years for new recruits to join.
The Fanglords believe themselves to be members of the master race of Golarion. They claim that no creature alive can match the majesty or strength of a tiger, nor the presence and intelligence of a man, and thus, the combination of the two is the pinnacle of evolution. Due to their haughty natures, the Fanglords don't interact much with the other tribes in general, preferring instead to keep to themselves and roam Varisia on their endless nomadic journey. Despite their arrogance, they are a largely peaceful people, fighting only to defend themselves historically. Most Fanglord males prefer to leave the fighting to the women, and dedicate themselves to poetry and the arts.
The fanglords live a nomadic lifestyle that takes them across all corners of Varisia, but spend the majority of the year in the regions of the Nolands and the Uplands of Velashu.
Witchwolf tribe: The witchwolves have a healthy appreciation for bloodlust, killing, and hunting, and they enjoy all three tremendously. Strength is all that matters for the witchwolf tribe, and they have channeled their innate athleticism into yearly games that the tribe hosts for competition. Skinwalkers from all tribes compete, but there is a secret set of games for witchwolves only that all aspiring leaders of the tribe - who are themselves alphas of their own pack family - must participate in. Whichever witchwolf wins the contest is Alpha Male, Chief, until next year. The current Chief has been victorious for 5 years in a row now.
The Witchwolves respect strength and revere games that showcase athleticism. Their relationship with the Ragebred and the Scaleheart is a tight one, and witchwolf culture embraces the well-known power of their cousins. They feel that the Coldborn are too passive, content to stay in their plateau and, in their eyes, look down on everyone else. This sentiment has been especially felt lately due to Temmeruk calling the council of tribes together. Bloodmarked and Nightskulk are not to be trusted.
The witchwolves live primarily at Wormwood Hall and inhabit the entire forests of Churlwood and Lurkwood.
Scaleheart (Werecrocodile)
- Harthresh (Barbarian) - Conflicted / Territorial
Witchwolf (Werewolf)
- Kenna Icemane (Fighter) - Undecided Motivations
- Kysira Silvercoat (Monk/Shaman) - War
Coldborn (Werebears)
- Arren Icewalker (Druid) - War (Reluctantly)
- Harsuk (Bard) - Diplomacy
Nightsulk (Wererat)
- Mori (Investigator) - Diplomacy
Fanglord (Weretigers)
- Saipres (Bloodrager) - Diplomacy
Bloodmarked (Werebats)
- Darath (Alchemist) - Diplomacy
Ragebred (Wereboar)
Seascarred (Weresharks)
I see Kenna and Kysira getting along just fine. Perhaps a bit of competition between the two and occasionally a disagreement concerning methods, seeing as how one is lawful and the other chaotic, but ultimately their goals don't contradict each other. One is concerned with keeping the tribe safe, the other wants to lead.
That reminds me to get my traits down. EDIT: done, I got reactionary, sworn enemy (human), killer and as a drawback xenophobic.
...
The first connection that jumped out to me was Harthresh. I had thrown something into my background that one of the wars Saipres was involved in was against the Lizardfolk, and given that the Scaleheart in general seem less warlike, (and the Fanglords, for all their ego, don't seem to just seek out battle), perhaps it was in their defense? I can definitely see the two tribes getting along better than some of the others, and it would have given us a good reason to have met previously.
I also really like the sound of the Coldborn as a people. I can't find background for Harsuk, but I think Arren is certainly someone that I'd enjoy having a lot of talks with, given his experiences on both sides of the fence. I imagine my caravan coming through once every couple years and we sitting and playing some variant of Chess with bones, hah.
I suspect the Fanglords would look down on the Nightskulk - While the Fanglords pride themselves on having the strength of a tiger combined with the cunning of a human, I think the desire for the Nightsulk to integrate themselves with the humans would be viewed by them as a weakness. I am not sure if Mori and I might know each other by any means, but I think in general things between our peoples might be somewhat strained.
And my motivation is still war. It seems to have completely been drowned out by the banter in the recruitment thread.
I'd certainly be fine with that, Raijinn. I see Harthresh as a "True Believer" amongst the Scaleheart, utterly and piously devoted to the proclamations of the Shaman council and their divine authority.
If they tell him to go...he's going to go, regardless of his insular territorial tendencies and almost complete lack of empathy, as a speaker for his tribe. He may not like leaving and may have reservations about his suitability for this assigned role, but he will do so because it is asked of him by those who speak for the divine.
Any indecision or vagueness in the words of the Shaman Council sets him on edge and unsettles him, so he is most certainly...unsettled...in terms of what this gathering of the tribes will mean for him and his people.
If there is a previous meeting between us, I'm sure you would have found Harthresh to be sullen yet driven, alternating between cold and aggressive. Despite these swings of mood, he always takes a moment to think of the less direct and more...efficient...route to solving a problem, rather than crashing into it head-on.
If you met him due to a conflict that saw the Fanglords and Scaleheart as allies, then yes, Harthresh definitely would have been among the forefront of those who would fight on behalf of the Scaleheart in times of need.
In terms of being warlike, I built Harthresh to come at you sideways. He's not going to charge into a threat, roaring and swinging. Instead, he's going to be quiet and relatively patient stalking into a position of maximum advantage before he strikes. He will then pull his enemy down into the deep, where their struggles and screams will only fill their lungs with water and hasten their departure from this mortal coil even as he tears them apart.
He's not a warrior of his people per say, but threats to his tribe or those who encroach upon their territory are dealt with by him and others of similiar ilk. He just happens to be very good at what he does and quite possibly enjoys it.
So warlike, probably not...but most definitely a killer. Still, a killer under the full control and sway of divine decrees.
I'm playing with the avi, and getting my info in the alias. Do I need to update my shaman levels with the changes? It's mostly a spell list change that I need to do.
I see competition between the two of us, Kenna. And yes, it is hard to lead a tribe when that tribe no longer exists, so she'd want it to survive. Kysira wouldn't mind ruling over the humans though, and war is a great time for power changes.
I'll post some more thoughts and make an alias in the evening when I get home, but I think the Coldborn interaction will be amusing to say the least.
If I remember correctly (and apologies if I don't), Arren is a sullen fatalist, while Harshuk fancies himself a comedian.
Perhaps they have traveled together already, on Harshuk's messenger rounds, or perhaps a more specific mission for the Coldborn that increased their status.
For your information, Harthresh, since you're a pious character; the Scaleheart worship Apep, the Devourer of the Dawn, the Drowning Dark, the Lurker Below. Worship of other deities is permitted - Apep is a hungry deity, not a jealous one - but the Shaman caste (of which there are 10 members) - are shamans of Apep.
In general, I allow PCs to demonstrate some degree of creative control over the tribes, and they generally worship deities associated with the animals they shift into.
Thanks, DM! Updated to Apep on my profile, just had Hanspur in there as a thematic placeholder until I got some deity/religion information from you, like this...Apep, "The Drowning Dark"...oh yes, that's right up Harthresh's alley...
dot dot ...
An bare-bones alias for Harshuk son of Verash.
He might also know some of you from the other tribes, as before he struck out on his own as a messenger among his secluded people, he traveled with his father, a trader who made rounds throughout the skinwalker-controlled parts of Varisia.
Darath is probably one of if not the most likely among the group to have not met anyone else. He performed some showy displays of one-man artillery fire (Alch. fire and bombs) during a past conflict or two, but he's primarily a skilled medic and accomplished alchemist. That doesn't involve a lot of running around.
Unless someone showed up at the Bloodmarked tribe with an injury he attended to, or sustained an injury during a conflict the tribe was a part of, the most you would know of him is the aforementioned exploits. Oh, and if you did show up with an injury, he probably took a sample of your blood. Just saying.
In other news, this is finals week for me so I may or may not be on the ball here till Friday afternoon. Probably won't be a problem, but just a heads-up.
Hey there, Arren here with a dot and a few thoughts.
"Petty Alchemy" is quite right with his assessment of Arren, and I think his opinion of Harsuk would be one of...perhaps pity. He considers anyone with a optimistic opinion of life to be someone who must have had an especially fortunate or sheltered life, or too young and naive to really understand.
He would, of course, enjoy the long and deep talks that the other skinwalkers could offer on their travels, and Arren travels often due to his easy ability to do so.
DM, I'm in the process of equipment-purchasing, and I have a question - would it be feasible to write into his backstory that he and a group of coldborn warriors defeated a young dragon (one of the reasons why the coldborn respect him and he has their ear), so that I could have some dragonscale armor?
I'll have to think about that Arren, it's pretty powerful armor.
Okay!
The difference between having +1 hide and dragonhide breastplate is relatively little to me, I just thought it'd be cool.
So! I've bought equipment and I am ready for the going.
I'd been wondering about better armour as well since it's pretty much all the equipment I have/need. But I can wait.
Man, a somber bear person with great armour just keeps making me think of Iorek from His Dark Materials.
Alright, I've decided to take a bit more of an archery bent as our front line is already a mile wide! I'll wrap up the sheet soon, but should be good for now.
HP is the better of rolls or half, or is it as the dice fall?
Better of rolls or half.
Alright, thanks. I've copied Yorick's format for displaying vital statistics under the name, and the sheet is essentially done except picking out traits.
Edit: Can't dot the gameplay thread.
Also: Arren, let me know if you want to have any specific history together. Harshuk will tell stories of things that we've done together, which might not necessarily be true (since he loves telling a good story more than he cares if it really happened). Feel free to shake your head with disappointment.
Kenna, how much do you want the two of us to know each other before this? Have we just heard of each other? Maybe competed a few times against each other?
Also, I believe I have this Alias up to date with not only Kysira's info but the updates to Shaman as well. All that's missing is the last few pieces of equipment.
Edit: Also, who would have competed at the yearly witchwolf hosted games? I might recognize you if you did well.
Alright, thanks. I've copied Yorick's format for displaying vital statistics under the name, and the sheet is essentially done except picking out traits.
Edit: Can't dot the gameplay thread.
Also: Arren, let me know if you want to have any specific history together. Harshuk will tell stories of things that we've done together, which might not necessarily be true (since he loves telling a good story more than he cares if it really happened). Feel free to shake your head with disappointment.
I was thinking that Arren and Harshuk would have been sent on some mission in the past together, and Arren quickly tired of Harshuk's banter, although would have been impressed with his prowess in combat.
Also, hooray! Yoricks! We're in a game together.
sorry, i'm late to the party. it's also finals week for me, but that's wrapping up. additionally, i'll admit to having been distracted by the new playtest document and discussion.
umm... i don't imagine mori knows any of the other PCs unless they're particularly interested in wealth or shady dealings.
Kysira, I think we might know each other quite well already. Have a (usually) friendly rivalry going. How does that sound?
Also, hooray! Yoricks! We're in a game together.
I know! I'm excited by this. :D
Mori and Darath - there's a history of cooperation between the Bloodmarked and the Nightskulk tribes, as the Nightskulk are too pragmatic to care about the strange cultural rituals the werebat-kin participate in, and the Bloodmarked recognize the value of the broader connections that Nightskulk culture affords. How an individual Bloodmarked may react to an individual Nightskulk may vary, but the leaders of each tribe hold each other in fairly high regard. If there's a chance for either of you to connect with any of the other PCs, it's going to be with each other - or with the nomadic Fanglords, or perhaps the Coldborn wanderer.
Hmmmm... Darath certainly isn't the type to shy away from shady dealings, so long as he has something to gain and it doesn't threaten his position should things go awry. It would still require them to come to him; I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud or anything, I just don't see him moving around much.
Darath isn't the only medic in the Bloodmarked territory by any means, even in the main compound (or whatever noun is appropriate here), but he's certainly one of if not the most respected (or feared, either way). If anyone was visiting on official business and took an injury for some reason... or had 'business' with someone official... he'd be the one they'd likely see.
Indeed, that's consistent with my ideas about your characters. All of you are extremely prominent and important members of whatever tribe you belong to.
Aye, just clarifying my character for everyone else ;)
Kysira, I think we might know each other quite well already. Have a (usually) friendly rivalry going. How does that sound?
That works for me. I can see a mostly friendly rivalry. They could even practice against each other.
Still unable to dot gameplay. Is anyone else having the same problem?
You can't access the link? You should be able to...
http://paizo.com/campaigns/DMFrogfootsSkinwalkerCampaign/gameplay#11
I could access link, but it wasn't posting my post of "Dot.". Apparently it was too short and I was confused by the other dots. Worked with something a little longer.
Are we doing introductions one at a time? I don't want to just leap in and b@$+!$*s things up.
Out of a desire to get this campaign moving along, I'm going to start up another introduction scene for some other players. Harthresh, I encourage you to use the "reply" function of the forums to quote my posts directly when you respond, if you respond any further, to help us keep the separate stories straight more easily.
We're doing the introductions separately for a few reasons. One is that I like the opportunity for players to see how each other roleplay in isolation. Another is that it serves as a strong introduction to the players as characters, AND to the characters as players.
I know it's slowing the pace of the start of the campaign somewhat, and I ask that you all bear with me as we make our introductions. In my humble opinion it truly strengthens the connection players have to their characters to do it this way, and heightens your enjoyment of the game as a whole, as players.
Next up is Harsuk and Arren, the Coldborn. After I start that writeup, I'll do the Witchwolf scene, followed by the Bloodmarked intro (which will be somewhat shorter, because you wrote a good scene already for the introduction of your beliefs to the leadership). Saving the Fanglords and the Nightskulk for last because you two did really well in your introduction scenes that you wrote for the recruitment thread, so your scene will be somewhat further along the timeline.
Do I need to update my shaman levels with the changes? It's mostly a spell list change that I need to do.
I'm mostly trusting you with Shaman mechanics because I am not overly familiar with the class yet, but please apply any changes made by the playtest as they happen. I'd like your character to represent the recent and truest incarnation of the playtest class.
Out of a desire to get this campaign moving along, I'm going to start up another introduction scene for some other players. Harthresh, I encourage you to use the "reply" function of the forums to quote my posts directly when you respond, if you respond any further, to help us keep the separate stories straight more easily.
Noted and will do!
I'm fine with this method Frogfoot. I think its something that needs to be set up. I'm just waiting for Kysira having to put up and be (mostly) nice to 'that little whelp' as she calls her (amongst other things).
Out of a desire to get this campaign moving along, I'm going to start up another introduction scene for some other players. Harthresh, I encourage you to use the "reply" function of the forums to quote my posts directly when you respond, if you respond any further, to help us keep the separate stories straight more easily.
We're doing the introductions separately for a few reasons. One is that I like the opportunity for players to see how each other roleplay in isolation. Another is that it serves as a strong introduction to the players as characters, AND to the characters as players.
I know it's slowing the pace of the start of the campaign somewhat, and I ask that you all bear with me as we make our introductions. In my humble opinion it truly strengthens the connection players have to their characters to do it this way, and heightens your enjoyment of the game as a whole, as players.
Next up is Harsuk and Arren, the Coldborn. After I start that writeup, I'll do the Witchwolf scene, followed by the Bloodmarked intro (which will be somewhat shorter, because you wrote a good scene already for the introduction of your beliefs to the leadership). Saving the Fanglords and the Nightskulk for last because you two did really well in your introduction scenes that you wrote for the recruitment thread, so your scene will be somewhat further along the timeline.
I hope I didn't sound like I was complaining, I think this is a super interesting way to go with this, I've never seen it done before. Looking forward to reading everyone else's introductions. :)
Do I need to update my shaman levels with the changes? It's mostly a spell list change that I need to do.I'm mostly trusting you with Shaman mechanics because I am not overly familiar with the class yet, but please apply any changes made by the playtest as they happen. I'd like your character to represent the recent and truest incarnation of the playtest class.
I'll follow suit with the Bloodrager.
Out of a desire to get this campaign moving along, I'm going to start up another introduction scene for some other players. Harthresh, I encourage you to use the "reply" function of the forums to quote my posts directly when you respond, if you respond any further, to help us keep the separate stories straight more easily.
On another PBP we're using headlines in to mark separate storylines. That helps minimizing the walls of redundant text.
In our case it could be headlines like
etc.
I incorporated your suggestion in my latest Gameplay post, Threeshades, as it makes total sense and is a good idea for not cluttering up the thread with a ton of quote-text blocks.
I'm excited to introduce Arren :) I'm still not entirely sure how I'm going to characterize him. I will, however, be using [ooc] headlines instead of quotes to mark my posts.
I'm mostly trusting you with Shaman mechanics because I am not overly familiar with the class yet, but please apply any changes made by the playtest as they happen. I'd like your character to represent the recent and truest incarnation of the playtest class.
I'll keep up with the changes. Shaman has been one of the least changing, and I check in over there. I have her updated already with the changes to spell casting. She now uses the Druid list with a few additions instead of the Cleric list.
That seems to make a bit more sense to me, honestly.
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I've updated Arren's profile with quite a bit of extraneous information. I'm sure I'll have more to add as the story progresses.
Wait, Shamans use my spell list but with extras? Grr. Competition time for "who's-the-better-druid". I'll let you guess who wins.
..
..
..
Did you guess? The answer is me.
Arren, I'd like you to elaborate on your reincarnation. Was it your first time, or are you a Time Lord from Golarion basically? How much do you remember from your past life? Was reincarnating traumatic? Did you reincarnate at your current age?
Arren, I'd like you to elaborate on your reincarnation. Was it your first time, or are you a Time Lord from Golarion basically? How much do you remember from your past life? Was reincarnating traumatic? Did you reincarnate at your current age?
Okay!
I believe that it would have been Arren's first reincarnation, but his archetype BASICALLY makes him a Golarion Time Lord, assuming that he's fifth level at least and has access to restoration.Arren would remember most of the big things from his previous life, but the edges have been softened, so to speak. Details are hard for him to recall but he has the general gist of his entire old life still in his head. Subsequent reincarnations may take even that from him.
Reincarnation was fairly traumatic, as it caused him to actually lose two levels. This is part of what he's forgotten - how to use several of his more powerful spells, to be specific. It was painful and soul-draining, and he returned to life weak, barely able to move or speak. (think about Neo when he first exited the Matrix)
Arren is objectively 39 years old. I'm thinking that he was something like 32 when he died, and he was reincarnated in an adult coldborn body, and he's been living among the coldborn for several years.
In other words, Arren has been alive for 39 years. He's been in a coldborn body for seven years, and his coldborn body is likely something like 25-28 years old.
Understood. That's very cool. I've looked at a few of the archetypes floating around the SRD that revolve around reincarnation...it'll be fun to see it in action. I'm glad I picked you, and I'll try my very best to make full use of your reincarnation class feature...when you least expect. ^_^
I'm glad you picked me too :3
I hope that if the many lives ability ever activates, my companions know that I'm actually not dead and I can find them again.
