A move action to store and a move action to retrieve - provokes and requires a free hand.
We will assume for this case that "equipping it" is part.of the move action for a magic item slot other than armor.
I am fine with the action economy but what happens if the wings are placed on top of the cloak? Can whatever is on top be active?
In my home game I let people use amulet this way.
Its be the same. First one on works. Two move actions to manipulate the objects.
Working on the cash split.
Vuloo had no inputs, so as far as I'm concerned, shard distribution will be as follows:
VULOO: takes the incense of meditation, scroll of plane shift
BRAELEX: takes mithril chain shirt, universal solvent, couatl feathers, human bane bolts, elixir of truth
RELAN: takes the golembane scarab, boots of striding & springing and the wings
Keeping the arcane scroll of plane shift, which Gemel can take/use.
Selling the rest... cash split is 23,422 gp, 5 sp.
Greater halflight charm? Who has it? Or did you try to sell that?
VULOO: takes the incense of meditation, scroll of plane shift
BRAELEX: takes mithril chain shirt, universal solvent, couatl feathers, human bane bolts, elixir of truth
RELAN: takes the golembane scarab, boots of striding & springing and the wings
Keeping the arcane scroll of plane shift, which Gemel can take/use.
Selling the rest... cash split is 23,422 gp, 5 sp.
Thanks for all that hard work!
Spending money:
Relan would like to get a mithril breastplate (base cost of 4200 gp) and have it enchanted up to +3 (Enchanting cost of 12000 gp). IIRC, with Gemel's help the base price of the breastplate drops to 1400 gp for a total cost of 13400 gp.
He would also like to upgrade his belt of incredible Dex from +2 to +4. This costs an additional 12000 gp. And he is broke again. :)
He will offer his +2 mithril chain shirt to the Braelix since she was interested in the mithril chain shirt we recently found.
"All but moved in" suggests Pilla is not going anywhere soon. Or are you choosing not to share that? GM says we are not on a schedule so I would prefer to quickly wrap up any crafting and get to the next book of the AP. But I do not mean to be difficult. Relan has noting to do himself and will go if anyone goes. Can you teleport us Gemel?
I can cast a teleport (per day), but Gemel hasn't been in Sandpoint since he was a kid... Teleport mishaps are a thing, and can get ugly. It's 50 miles on land (2 days walking, day and a half with horses), and 40 by boat (about a day). We can probably get a boat ride for 5 gp each (or less...).
Thanks for doing the tally Braelex. Vuloo will purchase a ring of invisibility ($20k) with his split of $23.4K.
Fflash, we have discussed binding a little bit, would you object to a Resolute Template Giant Worker Bee.
Note that the critter is from Tome of Horrors, and that's at least semi-3ed party.
If you want to stay purely paizo, I could go with a, resolute
Giant Mantis. It's a second choice because mantis's are creepy (and carnivorous)
As I think I have made clear, after binding it into service, I intend to hand said critter over to the previously researched animal trainer, to be trained as a mount, while various bits of crafting are going on.
Chaotic Evil?
CE? No... none of the death and destruction was intentional or expected. She went along with a poor decision and it quickly got out of control. The drug wasn't inherently harmful, but demand for it incited the rest. The hundreds dead is really bads killing bads... Ardoc thugs vs Aspis thugs vs Freemen thugs.
My wife and I recently watched all of Breaking Bad and El Camino. We're going through Saul now. Definitely inspired there! ;)
There are a number of races out there with the ability to train vermin - eg the mites that the PC's cut a deal with. It's definitely not a common ability, but that's why he was "looking for an animal trainer who is skilled enough to train exotic animals, and/or vermin".
Why a vermin? Mindless. A mount that is protected from fear effects is a real plus. So much so that protection from mind-affecting effects is pretty much a necessity if your going to use mounts (at least non-pc special ability ones) at higher levels (as in look what would happen to any normal mount in the last adventure. As a further note, at higher available HD (ie Planar Binding +, as opposed to Lesser Planar Binding), there are some pretty mobile plants too...
Resolute template? I figure trying to tame vermin is hard enough... do I want to make it worse for the poor guy by including a natural tendency to chaos? Celestial would be a viable alternative, but resolute seems the best bet...
Also, Fflash, there is something going on with the roll20 campaign. I followed the invitation link when you sent it. But it says I'm not authorized when I try to follow the link at the top of the page (I get a similar not authorized page when I try to follow the invitation link again).
Roll20:
Hmm. That's odd. Were you able to enter at all the first time?
If so, go to your main Roll 20 campaign page (not through a link) and enter from there ... the invitation link expires over time, I believe. As for the other link, if you're not logged in, I think it blocks you as well (or maybe it's just useless as a link ... I'd have to ask the others). If you didn't get in at all, I may need to send you another.
For your exotic animal trainer, I answered the OR part, so it wasn't a complete miss.
For vermin: Help me find a resource/reference ... I'm struggling to find a way to rule a service/cost limit other than to hand wave it away. All I can find are essentially a class feature of blight druids, a verminous hunter or a druid/ranger that takes Vermin Heart. Something that requires an entire class level to acquire.
For example, an Int of 1 limits a creature to 3 tricks. So what's the limit on an Int of 0?
Ultimate Magic gives me the below for the mindless quality on vermin companions which are exceptional in their own right and if they are limited to one trick ... no combat riding for a non-companion vermin, certainly.
Mites can train through vermin empathy for their own use. For someone else's? Even if they could train it, how would you communicate with it to use said tricks?
As for the template, I was just teasing, it's a planar ally. Conjure whatever you wish. As we discussed about the good/evil. How you approach it dictates your alignment. Again, it's about your intent behind your actions. Resolute is a strong choice.
Ok, Roll20 let me in through my main page, so that's good enough. The link at the top of the page still tells me unauthorized though...
Vermin Training
Ok, I don't think you need to be able to communicate with a trained creature to "use" it; you can ride a trained horse without speak with animals, right...
Another way to train vermin is a Headband of Vermin Control. Which is 1000 gp, presumably amortized at a profit over the vermin trained...
Cost though, and what vermin can/will learn, that is ultimately a GM's call. I certainly wouldn't handwave the cost. I will note that if you poke around in AONPRD, Mounts and Pets, down the list you will find combat trained riding bees, with prices. The reason I didn't go there in the first place is that Riding Bees (worker) are medium sized and thus can only carry small riders. Queens can carry medium riders, but they are out of summoning range (7HD >> 6 including template value), and my price range.
The headband would have to go with the rider. Wonder if influence or control meant train as well just for handling/pushing/riding. If you eat the slot, maybe we could make this work. Let me investigate some more -- this may be your best bet that I could get behind. Essentially, they attune it, train it and then sell you the headband along with the now "trained" vermin. I don't think they would amortize it since it's not reusable over several vermin. They'd sell it at a premium.
I guess my point about the training sticking was the level of empathy if you didn't have it, you can't communicate with a 0-Int creature ... not language, but no communication, at all ... mindless. A horse is not mindless, and it does communicate, just not with language. It has instinct and can be trained.
The riding bee is a red herring. And this is why knowledge of the greater extent of the lore is important over just a database of items and putting rules together.
It exists because of the Honey Whisperer alternate racial ability of the galthain. So if you were running a fey campaign, playing a galthain, and needed to purchase yourself a bee, there you go.
Don't worry about the headband too much - remember that's the same slot as a headband of vast int, which is pretty mission critical.
If summoning vermin won't work, I'll look at other options. Worst case is a resolute bison or something...
It does beg the question of how you can bind a mindless creature as well but we can just ignore that since I think conjuring planar vermin is s reasonable idea. The big thing is your daily Charisma check. It takes 21 days to train. You will need 21 successful rolls just to keep it bound long enough for training.
I think you're reading planar binding wrong.
You need to win an opposed Cha check, to force your will on it, at which point, it's forced into servitude ( and get sent off to the trainer).
To break out though, it needs to make a CHA check against DC = 15 +5 for prepared diagram, magic circle +5 my caster level/2 + 2 CHA mod = 27. Natural 20's don't win opposed checks (I think), so unless I conjure a vermin with a 24+ CHA, I'm good.
I partially disagree. Since it cant agree to complete a specific task (where time is immaterial) you have to compel it into unspecified duration . You essentially make a request for it to serve every 24 hours 10 days. (That's my mistake from earlier). That opposed check requires you to win. If you roll a 1 on it, it breaks free.
So 3 rolls during training. One to bind and compel and 2 over the next 20 days.
You don't make the task open-ended, your command is something simple to fulfill, like "serve me as my faithful mount for a year and a day". To be blunt, by that point, you're planning to conjure a replacement anyway, because you got access to planar binding...
This being the relevant text for the 5% chance.
"If you ever roll a natural 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the spell’s effect and can escape or attack you"
I consider "Serve me as a mount" as an open ended task. But more importantly, it cant agree to any of it since it is mindless so there is no arbitration other than the will save and forced compellance so pretty much all tasks are open ended given it would never know when it had completed? I'll get myself into a do loop if I overthink that part.
Nope. You dont get to bind something eternally or beyond the max duration of an open ended task without a chance to escape.
Else you could create a literal army ...
I take it assorted bindings that have lasted since Earthfall (Ashmintallu in the Ladies Light, for example), are secrets of the ancients that have yet to be re-discovered...
Lemme be clear since I'm not doing a good job of that. Am discussing the "cant make a bargain cuz it's not an intelligent creature thus it's an open ended task"
Make a deal with the devil. I get that.
I may be just twisting myself unnecessarily with this unintelligent vermin/animal thing.
Essentially, the creature cant agree to an complete the task because by its nature it cant understand it.
Retrain Stink Bomb discovery for Promethean Disciple. 5 days and 500 gp.
17000 gp base + 1000 gp glass
Scrolls:
animate objects (clr6)... 1650 gp
flame strike (clr5)... 1125 gp
geas/quest (clr6)... 1650 gp
spell turning (wiz7)... nah, +5 DC
Total cost: 22,925 gp
Takes 17 days.
Muhwahaha!
Retrain Stink Bomb discovery for Promethean Disciple. 5 days and 500 gp.
17000 gp base + 1000 gp glass
Scrolls:
animate objects (clr6)... 1650 gp
flame strike (clr5)... 1125 gp
geas/quest (clr6)... 1650 gp
spell turning (wiz7)... nah, +5 DC
Total cost: 22,925 gp
Takes 17 days.
[dice=Craft (alchemy) DC 22]1d20+19
Muhwahaha!
"Uh-oh. What have you done Braelax?"
Alright, I've slept on it and I've been overly draconian about this due to what it might mean as precedence.
You want a mount for a year, do it.
Just don't use the rule to create a battalion of resolute slicer beetles over the course of flex time.
DM Fflash, there will be no battalion of anything.
1) Gemel conjures a Resolute Giant Mantis and has it trained. He pays X hundred GP for the training. I'm thinking 5 is good for X. (I will put up the stats in this thread later today).
2) Over the course of several days he will use the Ancestral Memories + Fabricate dance to create A) Masterwork Studded Leather Barding for the mantis. B) Saddle and Tack for the mantis C) To transform his mithril chain shirt (12.5 lbs of mithril and additions) into mithril Kikko Armor (12.5 lbs of mithril and additions). Approximate expense 200 gp.
3) I understand that Windsong Abbey was a multi-faith institution...
Gmel writes polite letters to the temples/churches in Magnimar, indicating that the pathfinder society is preparing an expedition to Windsong Abbey, among the intents of this expedition are A) Finding out what happened, B) Succour of possible survivors, C) Possibly finishing whatever caused the issue. Supportive donations are hinted at. Also hinted is if they want add quest objectives (and what they will pay for them) they can reply. This will go to all the Temples in Magnimar that are in the following alignment basket (LG, LN, LE NG, N, CG).
Before he sends them off, he will run the by Sheila H and his fellow pathfinders, to make sure he's not stepping on any toes.
4) GM Fflash, could you just set a value for Gemel's Fame and PP? I've asked the thread several times and no one has replied with a number I can cut in half. That said, I plan on spending some, when I have a value...
1) Thought you decided not to go with vermin training. I think 500gp for training is reasonable. + purchase of the head band as previously discusswd
2) Technically ancestral memory has a failure chance, and I give you the answer you dont pick it for yourself. Plus fabricate has a pair of craft rolls required for masterwork items. None for the normal item. But given you just built your character, how much money are you saving with this dance? 150gold on the armor? Although if I am being super technical, you should still.pay 50gp for that difference. The weight of the item doesnt matter for raw materials. It's 1/3 the price.
3) Will get to this in gameplay
4) That seems like the reasonable thing tondo6, I agree. Unfortunately, without going through the archive, I dont know how much I passed out. Braelex just spent some ... how much did you have, Braelex?
1) Sorry misinterpreted your "overly draconian" as refering to the whole issue, not just durations. Will bind Resolute Polar Bear. Stats later
2) a) Ancestral memory has a failure chance for a getting a clue from the GM, "Failure indicates you merely gain a +5 insight bonus on all Intelligence-based skill checks for the duration of the spell.". I just need the insight bonus; +5 insight +7 int bonus + take 10 = 22 > DC 20 for masterwork crafting.
b) MW Studded Leather Barding
shop cost = 4* 25 +150 = 250.
manufacturing cost = 4*25/3 = 33.3
Tack
Not all that much, but finding tack for a mantis?
Mithril Armor
Mithril Kikko Armor (25 lbs normal weight)
Shop Cost = 4500 (materials, medium armor) +250 (armor) = 4750
Mithril Chain shirt (25 lbs normal weight)
Shop cost = 1000 (materials, light armor) + 100 (armor) = 1100
He will offer his +2 mithril chain shirt to the Braelix since she was interested in the mithril chain shirt we recently found.
I'm not that concerned with the AC, so we can sell the +2 shirt for extra cash, if you like.
RE: Prestige... I was at 20, but that doesn't include any gains from the last adventure. Did you award any? I looked back but couldn't find it.
Ah, I see. Its medium armor vs light armor.
Interesting take on the rules to assume that the weight is all mithral and you can circumnavigate the raw materials price requirement? . Its 1/3 the price of the target item minus 1/3 the price of the item that you're transforming. Raw material differences. It is listed in the component of the spell. Also why would you assume you dont pay for the masterwork component?
I assume you bought armor working tools (it's in the noise) and mithral adds 4 to the DC. So it's not a tap, yet although you can get there with masterwork tools.. I ask because I expect you all to do the math for your character for me. Not depend on me to provide all the rules to you.
As an aside, the use of an instantaneous (or round duration) spell for an over days/weeks time skill check bonus is a bit meta. I had thought you were using ancestral memory to figure out what kikko armor was.
Per Braelex's post, 10 fame/prestige is your starting point.
Not necessarily in order
1) Masterwork - this may be me/house rules, but I've always been of the opinion that masterwork is craftsmanship, not raw materials. For example, the difference between a smith who knows how to produce Wootz/Damascus steel and plain work... the iron ore and carbon that goes in to the process is the same.
2) I hadn't been assuming masterwork armorworking tools; I wouldn't assume that you could use them with a Fabricate spell - it's doing all the working, so what are the tools doing? I hadn't realized that Mithral added +4 to the DC. (BTW, Where's that from, I don't see it under the entry for Mithral, nor in the craft skill?) I can mitigate by using my Mnemonic Esoterica ability for the day to add Tears to Wine or Crafter's Fortune for more than the needed +2...
3) It's not a days/weeks skill check; I'm using Fabricate to do the work, duration Instantaneous and "Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet of material to be affected by the spell." (although that is presumably further modified by "If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet."
4) A Chain Shirt is pretty much pure metal "Covering the torso, this shirt is made up of thousands of interlocking metal rings." Whereas Kikko armor is "Kikko armor consists of a clever arrangement of hexagonal plates made from iron and sewn to cloth, granting the wearer greater flexibility than that provided by many armors that afford similar defense. The plates may be left exposed or hidden by a layer of cloth." has significant non-metal components. In theory, I have some spare Mithral at the end; I plan on ignoring the issue...
5) Thank you for the fame/prestige #.
1) You pay the masterwork component cost even if you are the artisan so there are raw materials in the cost.
2) I believe it's in the core rulebook under craft, working with special materials. Srd link here
3) ignore everything I said about time and tools. Thanks for the reminder about fabricate. I checked myself a few times and still dorked it up. Good use of both spells in this case!
4) I completely understand your rationale and the logic is sound. Regardless the rules are clear and since what you're doing is very meta, we will keep all the meta in this. You pay the raw materials cost for the spell between the raw materials for the chain shirt and additional.purchases.
RE: Prestige... I was at 20, but that doesn't include any gains from the last adventure. Did you award any? I looked back but couldn't find it.
Yes, 6
https://paizo.com/campaigns/DMFflashsShatteredStarCampaign/discussion&p age=23#1137
1) You pay the masterwork component cost even if you are the artisan so there are raw materials in the cost.
2) I believe it's in the core rulebook under craft, working with special materials. Srd link here
3) ignore everything I said about time and tools. Thanks for the reminder about fabricate. I checked myself a few times and still dorked it up. Good use of both spells in this case!
4) I completely understand your rationale and the logic is sound. Regardless the rules are clear and since what you're doing is very meta, we will keep all the meta in this. You pay the raw materials cost for the spell between the raw materials for the chain shirt and additional.purchases.
2) I know why I can't find that table in AONPRD, scroll up to the heading, Making Craft Work [Alternative Crafting Rules]
"The following alternative crafting rules first appeared in Making Craft Work, by Spes Magna Games."
4) Will sort out the math ;
Shop price mithril Chain shirt: 1100gp
Shop Mithral Kikko Armor:
4000 gp armor (I looked it up, I was off earlier, also "the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below")
250 gp
4250/3 = 1414 gp (rounding up)
Gemel Pays 314 GP.
200
Also, Gemel will spend 1 prestige and purchase a wayfinder. And 2 more prestige and purchase a wand of Remove Fear
2. Interesting. Let me go check the source material then. If pfsrd rolled in some 3pp stuff and didnt reference it then I'll need to double check them more.
4. Almost there. Raw material cost not price. So 1/3 of the 1100 for the chain shirt.
Had to add 10 skill ranks due to the +1 Int from the beast tome. All 10 ranks into Craft (glass), heh.
Greater Halflight Charm is still available. I have a neck slot item already. Vuloo? Relan?
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For Reference
Nibbly
Resolute Polar Bear
N Large animal
Init +3; Senses Darkvision 60’, low-light vision, scent; Perception +8
Defense
AC 23, touch 12, flat-footed 20 (+3 Dex, +8 natural, -1 size, +3 armor)
hp 52 (5d8+30)
Fort +10, Ref +7, Will +4
DR 5/Chaotic, Resist Fire 10, Resist Acid 10, Resist Cold 10, SR 11
Offense
Speed 40 ft., swim 20 ft.
Melee bite +9 (1d8+7), 2 claws +9 (1d6+7 plus grab)
Special: Smite Chaos 1/Day
Space 10 ft., Reach 5 ft.
Statistics
Str 25, Dex 17, Con 23, Int 2, Wis 16, Cha 10
Base Atk +3; CMB +11 (+15 grapple); CMD 24 (28 vs. trip)
Feats Endurance, Run, Skill Focus (Survival)
Skills Perception +8, Survival +8, Swim +19
Called with lesser Planar Binding, Nibbly is a resolute templated polar bear force into the service of Gemel Valdemar with the command “Be a my faithful and loyal mount for a year and a day”. He has been trained with the Combat Riding package (tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel).
Equipment: Masterwork Studded Leather Barding, Saddlebags, Military Saddle, Tack
He has several items of Gemel's gear hanging from his saddle: crossbow, 20 bolts, Do-It-All knife
Nibbly. Excellent. Autocorrect tried to make it Bubbly. Also terrific.
You have an image you wish me to use for map tokens or any polar bear ok?
Same question for your Draconic Ally.
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Nibbly. Excellent. Autocorrect tried to make it Bubbly. Also terrific.
You have an image you wish me to use for map tokens or any polar bear ok?
Same question for your Draconic Ally.
No particular preferences for tokens. As a note, I'm not sure if a draconic ally is Tiny ("a pseudodragon with all of the abilities granted by one of the following spells: form of the alien dragon I, form of the dragon I, or form of the exotic dragon I.") or Medium. A pseudodragon is Tiny, but the spells makes you a Medium dragon? Is size an ability granted? I am assuming it stays tiny for the statblock below. Also, form chosen Alien Dragon : Lunar.
Temporary
Draconic Ally,
20% real, DC 21
NG Tiny dragon
Init +2; Senses blindsense 60 ft., darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +6
Defense
AC 20, touch 14, flat-footed 18 (+2 Dex, +2 natural +4 natural Armor bonus, +2 size)
hp 17 (2d12+4)
Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +4
Immune paralysis, sleep; SR 12, Cold Resistance 20
Offense
Speed 15 ft., fly 60 ft. (good), Burrow 20 ft
Melee sting +6 (1d3–2 plus poison), bite +6 (1d2–2)
Space 2-1/2 ft., Reach 0 ft. (5 ft. with tail)
Statistics
Str 11, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10
Base Atk +2; CMB +2; CMD 10 (14 vs. trip)
Feats Weapon Finesse
Skills Diplomacy +5, Fly +15, Perception +6, Sense Motive +6, Stealth +19 (+23 in forests), Survival +6; Racial Modifiers +4 Stealth (improves to +8 in forests)
Languages: Common, Draconic; telepathy (60 ft.)
Special Abilities
Poison (Ex) Sting—injury; save Fort DC 14; frequency 1/minute for 10 minutes; effect sleep for 1 minute; cure 1 save. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +2 racial bonus.
Breath Weapon - 60-foot line of cold, 6d8
4. Almost there. Raw material cost not price. So 1/3 of the 1100 for the chain shirt.
Ok, sell the shirt for 1/2 price + 10% and buy raw materials...
(1100/2)*1.1 = 6151414-615 = 800 gp
updating Character sheet.
Working on the cash split.
Vuloo had no inputs, so as far as I'm concerned, shard distribution will be as follows:
Pride: Braelex
Gluttony: Relan
Greed: Relan
Lust: Gemel
Ok, putting the shard of lust and Ioun stone on my character sheet.
Spending money:
Relan would like to get a mithril breastplate (base cost of 4200 gp) and have it enchanted up to +3 (Enchanting cost of 12000 gp). IIRC, with Gemel's help the base price of the breastplate drops to 1400 gp for a total cost of 13400 gp.
He would also like to upgrade his belt of incredible Dex from +2 to +4. This costs an additional 12000 gp. And he is broke again. :)
He will offer his +2 mithril chain shirt to the Braelix since she was interested in the mithril chain shirt we recently found.
A minor correction - The enchants for +3 armor is 8k and not 12K. This leaves Relan with more cash than I had thought.
Also since Relan does not currently need medium armor proficiency he will take Dodge instead. Always working on his AC.
Spending money:
Relan would like to get a mithril breastplate (base cost of 4200 gp) and have it enchanted up to +3 (Enchanting cost of 12000 gp). IIRC, with Gemel's help the base price of the breastplate drops to 1400 gp for a total cost of 13400 gp.
He would also like to upgrade his belt of incredible Dex from +2 to +4. This costs an additional 12000 gp. And he is broke again. :)
He will offer his +2 mithril chain shirt to the Braelix since she was interested in the mithril chain shirt we recently found.
A minor correction - The enchants for +3 armor is 8k and not 12K. This leaves Relan with more cash than I had thought.
Also since Relan does not currently need medium armor proficiency he will take Dodge instead. Always working on his AC.
I think +3 enhancement to armor is 9K...