Sword and Board with Full Casting - Is this feasible?


Advice

Silver Crusade

As the topic says, I'm curious if it is possible to build a s&b full caster that fights with both weapons. I know its not optimal by any measure. However, I have a specific theme in mind for a character I'm trying to build, and I'm not sure how to go about it.

20 pt. buy
All paizo (Non-PSociety)
Theme: Front-line Combat focused full caster with a twf sword and shield build

General Background: Man is trying to find his wife who was assimilated into the Gray Maiden faction, and save her

It doesn't matter if we go arcane or divine. I'm not picky.


A divine caster with a light shield so you can hold your weapon in your off hand while casting. I believe oracle and shaman are the usual preferences for melee on a full caster.


Psychic caster for the win.


A psychic spellcaster (full casters: psychic or sorcerer, psychic bloodline) can have their hands full and cast with no problem.

Or, there's the shielded mage feat. Either with an eldritch knight build or on some variety of divine 3/4 BAB spellcaster, cleric etc.


Shielded Mage and Arcane Armor Training allows even an arcane caster to wear solid armor and shield. However, it's only a 1 point AC bonus from light shield to heavy, and light shield doesn't need Shielded Mage.

Psychic casting gets around all normal spell failure, but Psychic casters lack the prerequisites to go Dragon Disciple or Eldritch Knight which limits combat options.

TWF is actually very strong on builds that have straight damage bonuses like Divine Favor or Arcane Strike, since unlike strength damage those bonuses just pile onto all attacks equally.

TWF does pose ability score problems for a character who also needs a spellcasting ability score, but there are solutions.

"Effective full caster melee hybrid with weapon/shield, any class" is kind of a massive, massive field of options at this point. Shaman with Battle Spirit is probably the front-runner due to Bane.


Java Man wrote:
A divine caster with a light shield so you can hold your weapon in your off hand while casting. I believe oracle and shaman are the usual preferences for melee on a full caster.

Create Reliquary to make your shield your holy symbol as a cleric?

Needs two feats though.


That handles divine focus components, but wouldn't that still leave you in trouble when your spells require somatic components?


Well theres a trait to have a tattoo as your DF, and a style feat that allows bucklers to be used as a light shield. That could eliminate the somatic needs


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The main considerations look like

Do I have the feats for this?
Can I still cast spells when using TWF?
Can I do significant damage when using TWF?

Shielded mage is going to cost a couple more feats than other options and full casters mostly don't get a lot of bonus feats. Nature fang druids are an exception though. They get a bit of bonus damage too, and can get TWF feats without having to pump dexterity, and at the levels rangers get them rather than at levels set by BAB. Hmm. That could work.


VMC oracle (deaf) is an extreme option but works with pretty much any class combination that can afford the lost feats. I'd thought about doing that for eldritch knight. Three of the remaining feats end up going to arcane armor training, though....


Also starting level and likely finishing level make some difference. If you start at a level where you can spend 8K on a clawhand shield then shielded mage is unnecessary. If you're likely to play all the way to 20th level then you probably want a better high level spell list than druid.

Blahpers, how would free silent spell help? You don't hold shields in your mouth.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Here's an option for a weapon/shield bruiser with 9 levels of casting that works a shield into combat beyond just TWF:

Ulfsarkr (Wolf Berserker) Cleric
Urban Barbarian 1/ Separatist Cleric
Dual Talent Human: 14/16STR, 15DEX, 14CON, 12INT, 13/15WIS, 8CHA
Deity: Ragathiel, Gorum or any other deity with Rage Subdomain
Domains: Destruction/Rage and Wolf
Traits: Fate's Favored, Bred for War, Magical Knack / Drawback: Sentimental

1B. *Controlled Rage* / Two-Weapon Fighting
2C. Wolf Domain: +Improved Trip
3C. Improved Shield Bash
4C. [+1STR]
5C. Combat Reflexes
6C.
7C. Dirty Fighting
8C. [+1STR]
9C. *Domain Rage* / Greater Trip

Weapons: Furious Longsword, Furious Fortuitous Light Shield, (possibly) Dragoncatch guisarme

Obviously, this build works on tripping. Greater Trip permits an Attack of Opportunity when you trip something, and Fortuitous allows you to make a second Attack of Opportunity after something provokes one. So when you successfully trip something, you get a weapon/shield double attack combo. Tripping is quite strong with Rage and Cleric buffs and the usual stuff like Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver, but more trip bonus can be picked up with Fury's Fall, and by flanking with Dirty Fighting and/or the Wolf Domain's special flanking abilities.

The other special tripping feature here is that from level 3 up, you can fill your Domain spell slots with Aspect of the Wolf, which allows you to trip targets with a swift action along with other bonuses. As a level 3 spell, you can use a cheap Extend Spell Metamagic rod to make Aspect of the Wolf last for 2 minutes/level, which means by level 9 (when it becomes very powerful) it lasts almost 20 minutes and has at least 2 castings per day, so it should be easy to pre-buff.

With Aspect of the Wolf you've got the ability to trip a target and double-strike it all with a swift action, meaning you can basically pounce-trip foes from a distance or totally maul them at close range with a string of attacks. Shield bash attacks you get from Fortuitous don't suffer TWF penalties because you aren't using TWF to make them. And the really interesting thing is that with a trip-combo-strike swift action, you can even pair it with casting a spell - just get the casting you want done before turning on the Rage...


this shield is made for casting while holding a shield. also no spell failure.
a cleric of Shizuru start with a proficiency in a Katana (18-20 crit and deadly weapon ability)and if you take the ancestor's blade trait you can also start with a masterwork katana. (and a +1 to hit when smite-evil but mehh).
i for one find that war-priests and inquisitors have better class skills\spells to go melee+caster then full casters. though they lack the high end spells (war-priest with fervor for swift buff and sacred weapon etc, inquisitors with their bane and judgment abilities. my caster-killer war-priest used to self 'buff' silence on himself then melee into casters to get the upper hand. killed the fairy night-queen like that -she was an end boss caster in some ap)

Silver Crusade

@Badbird - I like the build, would prefer it without the level in barbarian, but I'll take that advice into account.

@everyone else - how would you guys go about dealing with the list of feats needed to make this build work? So far I see...

Two weapon fighting
Improved shield bash
Double slice

Which would take a minimum of three levels. Is double slice not necessary? I'm asking this not to throw a wrench in there. I'm doing this because I'm trying to bring myself to the same page. As for the level range, I believe it's 1 to 14.

Edit: I'm thinking human nature fang might be my best bet.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

This is one of those cases where Eldritch Knight really shines, in exchange for 2 spellcasting levels you gain at least 3 feats.

Also Double Slice sounds good in that its a boost to dmg, but Shield Slam should really be in there for the free bull rush. (w/ Eldritch Knight you might even get Shield master by lv 14).


1 person marked this as a favorite.

If you're unhappy with losing half a spell level to multiclassing a Cleric with one level of Barbarian, consider that a Cleric -1 spell level is the same spellcasting level as an Oracle, Sorcerer or Arcanist, all of which are powerful full casting classes. You said yourself: "Theme: Front-line Combat focused full caster". If the focus is front-line combat, dropping a half-spell-level to be much better at what the build is supposed to be focused on should be an obvious choice. Even a Wizard Eldritch Knight that loses one full spell level is still only half a spell level behind a full Sorcerer, and will reach level 9 spells before level 20.

Double Slice is useful, but in the grand scheme of things it's not that big a deal unless a build is very starved for offhand damage. It's probably only a +3 damage by mid/high level, and it applies to less than half of all attacks. By comparison, being able to buff with Divine Favor and the Fate's Favored Trait is worth +4 attack and +4 damage on all attacks by level 9. Arcane Strike is worth +3 damage to all attacks by level 10. Even just Deliquescent Gloves, which cost less than 10k, will make all attacks add 1d6 acid damage. So if you find a build really needs Double Slice, that build is weak on damage to begin with; and when trying to make a build do something great, Double Slice is one of the first things to go when feats are needed. If you can do close to 100 damage (or maybe even more) on a full attack by mid/high level, what is +3 from a couple of offhands worth?

A major issue for all melee characters, and especially TWF characters, is that if you don't get to full attack then you lose a ton of combat power. Builds that have some way to get multiple attacks while moving have a huge combat edge over builds that are limited to one attack per round until they can set up a full attack.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

If you have any other damage buff (divine favor spell, studied target, whatever) then double slice is nice but not necessary. For a non-psychic spellcaster shielded mage would avoid having to juggle weapons. With a light shield juggling weapons is an option but an annoying one.

e.g. A human nature fang druid might have Str 16+2=18, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 7 and feats/talents like this:

1: improved shield bash
Human: TWF
3: shield focus?
Talent 4: Ranger combat style - double slice
5: shielded mage?
Talent 6: Ranger combat style - improved TWF
7: craft magic arms and armor?
Talent 8: combat trick - lunge
9: quicken spell
Talent 10: Ranger combat style - greater TWF
11: shield slam
Talent 12: evasion
13: ???
Talent 14: opportunist

Alternately you might take the weapon and shield combat style and get shield master early (level 6) rather than getting improved/greater TWF early. There's definitely something to be said for that, it's a good feat and the ranger combat style gives it very early indeed.


Nature Fang Druid can also pick up Wolf Domain quite easily.

As far as non-Wildshape Druid goes though, I would also consider Urban Druid with Nobility Domain for the ability to cast Alter Self at will and spontaneously cast Divine Favor from Nobility Domain, Eagle Shaman Druid for the ability to take Nobility Domain and Flyby Attack, and Halcyon Druid for the ability to grab a TON of Wizard spells on a Druid. Halcyon Druid is basically a Wizard/Druid hybrid with 3/4 BAB, which is just awesome. Urban Druid's combat bonuses and spells can set up a true Juggernaught - Longstrider with stone plate armor and shield, Quicken Spell with Thunderstomp, and huge combat buffs.

Liberty's Edge

Try Arcane Duelist.

Caster that allows casting without armor penalty. Can self buff almost equivalent to fill BAB. Can heal, control, and other useful things.

Arcane Duelist
A master of the martial applications of steel and spell, the arcane duelist blends both into a lethal combination.

Arcane Strike: Arcane duelists gain Arcane Strike as a bonus feat at 1st level. This ability replaces bardic knowledge.

Bardic Performance: An arcane duelist gains the following types of bardic performance.

Rallying Cry (Su): At 1st level, an arcane duelist can use performance to rally dispirited allies. Each round he makes an Intimidate check. Any ally (including the bard) within 30 feet may use this check in place of his own saving throw against fear and despair effects. Those already under a fear or despair effect can attempt a new save each round using the bard's Intimidate check. Rallying cry does not work on effects that don't allow saves. This is a mind-affecting ability that uses audible components. This performance replaces countersong.

Bladethirst (Su): An arcane duelist of 6th level or higher may use performance to grant one weapon, one natural weapon, one end of a double weapon, or 50 items of ammunition of the same type within 30 feet a +1 enhancement bonus. This enhancement bonus increases by +1 for every three levels after 6th (maximum +5 at 18th level). These bonuses stack with existing bonuses and may be used to increase the item's enhancement bonus up to +5 or to add any of the following weapon properties: defending, distance, ghost touch, keen, mighty cleaving, returning, shock, shocking burst, seeking, speed, or wounding. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before adding special abilities. This performance replaces suggestion.

Mass Bladethirst (Su): An arcane duelist of 18th level or higher can use his bladethirst performance to enhance the weapons of as many allies as desired within 30 feet. The bonus provided by this power is +4 if conferred on two allies, +3 for three allies, +2 for four allies, and +1 for five or more allies. The power granted to each weapon must be identical. This ability replaces mass suggestion.

Bonus Feats: An arcane duelist weaves might and magic in his combat style, gaining the following bonus feats at 2nd level and every four levels thereafter: 2nd level—Combat Casting, 6th level—Disruptive, 10th level—Spellbreaker, 14th level—Penetrating Strike, 18th level—Greater Penetrating Strike. This ability replaces versatile performance and well-versed.

Arcane Bond (Ex): At 5th level, an arcane duelist gains the arcane bond ability as a wizard, using a weapon as his bonded item, allowing him to cast any one addition spell that he knows once per day. He may not choose a familiar or other type of bonded item. He may use the hand holding his bonded weapon for somatic components. This ability replaces lore master.

Arcane Armor (Ex): At 10th level, an arcane duelist gains Medium Armor Proficiency and can cast bard spells in medium armor with no chance of arcane spell failure. At 16th level, he gains Heavy Armor Proficiency and can cast bard spells in heavy armor with no arcane spell failure. This ability replaces jack of all trades.


Just note that a sorcerer with the psychic bloodline cannot qualify for the Eldrith Knight, because its spells are now considered psychic, and no longer arcane.

The Exchange

Divine is by far the easier way to do this. You don’t have to worry about those pesky spell failure chances and start with much better armor proficiencies.

The simplest build is an Oracle with the Battle mystery. Use your revelations to pick up feat equivalents.

The Crusader cleric archetype might be an option for you, depending on how you play. You get bonus combat feats but you give up a LOT. It’s really only an option if your character is “a front-line fighter; and oh, by the way, I sometimes cast spells but mainly outside of combat.” Really the only thing it has going for it over an Oracle is that as a divine prep caster you can select any spells when you pray.

Arcane is a lot more difficult. Not only are you down on BAB and starting proficiencies, but there aren’t as many options to pick up bonus combat feats. You pretty much have to take a dip somewhere to pick up those proficiencies.

Grand Lodge

I will add to the what everyone is saying.

Shamans particularly battle can do this well.

Cleric's have the best options for buff spells for full casters. Evangelist buff them and other well. Crusader get feats. Separatist can use wolf to trip or crocodile for sneak attack. Animal gets you a flanking partner to use out flank with.

Oracles have the same spell list but gain revelations which are amazing. Warsighted let's you have the combat feat you need when you want them.

Druids have shield and scimitar proficiency by default. Nature's fang gets study which helps accuracy tons of feats more than any of the above. Has the options of wolf, or crocodile domain (add accomplished sneak attack for solid bonus damage. You can skip Dex prereqs here so your stats go much further (use sword and shield ranger talentless). Or take an animal companion for outflank, pair oppertunist, shield master, bashing finish for a good crit build with lots of bonus attack.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
avr wrote:

Also starting level and likely finishing level make some difference. If you start at a level where you can spend 8K on a clawhand shield then shielded mage is unnecessary. If you're likely to play all the way to 20th level then you probably want a better high level spell list than druid.

Blahpers, how would free silent spell help? You don't hold shields in your mouth.

Um . . . uh . . . I am very smart!

*runs away crying*

(Seriously, you ever have one of those days?)


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Here's one that has strong melee, Sorcerer casting level and a pounce ability by level 9:

Fighter 1/ Strength Patron Synergist Witch 8/ Eldritch Knight
Dual Talent Human: 15/17STR, 14DEX, 14CON, 15/17INT, 8WIS, 8CHA
Traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Knack

1F. +Artful Dodge / Two-Weapon Fighting
2W.
3W. Improved Shield Bash
4W.
5W. Arcane Strike
6W.
7W. Improved Familiar: Sylvanshee
8W.
9W. Favored Prestige Class
10EK. +Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
11EK. Prestigious Spellcaster

Strength Patron Witch has access to Divine Favor/Power, Heroism and Arcane Strike, which by mid/high level is around +6 to attack and damage from a swift action, a long-term buff and one in-combat buff.

Synergist Witch with a Sylvanshee familiar gains the pounce ability at 8, as well as free flight; so by level 9 you can go from flying in the backfield to from-above sword and shield full attack in a single round.

Prestigious Spellcaster picks up the lost spellcasting level from Eldritch Knight.

Witch can use Hex picks on Greater Gift of Consumption, which is an amazing ability.

If you want armor, one level of Arcane Armor Training permits using a mithral kikko medium armor.

Silver Crusade

@BadBird - I'll definitely be using that build. Why Artful Dodge though?

Edit: Nvm. I see why. That's gorgeous.


Scrollmaster Wizard archetype. :p


Pff. Might as well just play a regular wizard with martial and shield proficiency feats/traits/racial traits if we're using scrollmaster as a basis.


New Sorcerer Eldritch Knight option: Ganzi with the Weaponplay option are proficient with all martial weapons, so no martial dip and no VMC Oracle of Battle needed.

Human Blood Conduit Bloodrager (Aberrant) 1/Blade Adept Arcanist n for full BAB at one combat maneuver of your choice and 9/9 spellcasting progression with only 1 level of delay, and NO Eldritch Knight levels!

But the cheesiest cheese I have come up with (even though it is behind by 2 in spellcasting progression, you still eventually get 9th level spellcasting): Human Ranger 2/Cleric (Foundation of Faith, Separatist) of Erastil 3/Hinterlander x, except replace the 9th level floating feat with Clustered Shots, and all level-up ability score increases go to Wisdom.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Sword and Board with Full Casting - Is this feasible? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.