I just finished reading thru Alpha 3 and noticed that rules on multiclassing didn't seem to be covered anywhere (beyond a brief mention of assigning skills to NPCs with 2 classes).
If I recall correctly, specifically outlining how to make a character was one thing that wasn't allowed by the OGL so my guess is that would explain the lack of details for this area. In any event, I thought of one possible way to get around this while also outlining an improved method for players to use when figuring their BAB and Saving Throws when multiclassing:
Include a table showing the Good/Average/Poor BABs and Good/Poor saves by level. You then include the following directions:
"To determine the BAB of Your multiclass character, count up the number of class levels your character has in classes that give a poor BAB progression. Find that level # on the chart below and write down the number from the corresponding Poor BAB column. Next count up the number of levels they have in classes with an average BAB. Find that value in the chart [on the AVG BAB column] and add it to the number you found for the poor BAB levels. Lastly, add to that number the number of levels at which they progressed in a class with a Good BAB. the resulting number is your character's BAB.
For each of the three saving throws, the process is the same. Count the number of levels your character has in classes with a Poor Fort save, note the value for the corresponding level; add to it the value for the number of levels they have in classes with a Good Fort save. Repeat this for Reflex and Will saves and you are done.
Note: If the sum for a given stat is a decimal, leave off the decimal part to determine the modifier used in actual gameplay (i.e. always round decimals down)."
EXAMPLE TABLE: (LVL = Level, GdSv=Good Save, PrSv=Poor Save
LVL GdSv PrSv
1 .. 2.5 .. 0.3
2 .. 3.0 .. 0.6
3 .. 3.5 .. 1.0
4 .. 4.0 .. 1.3
5 .. 4.5 .. 1.6
6 .. 5.0 .. 2.0
7 .. 5.5 .. 2.3
8 .. 6.0 .. 2.6
9 .. 6.5 .. 3.0
etc.
Look familiar? It's based off of a cleaned-up version of the Fractional BAB/Saves found in Unearthed Arcana. Using such a method, You eliminate the guesswork about how often a character get the "+2 save boost" for a good save. It also prevents the weirdness that can result from multiclass characters having +4 base saving throws with a BAB of +0.
One way to try and clean this up is to have good saves be 1/2, poor saves be 1/3, and if you choose a class with a good save you get the +2 in that save feat (or something equivalent non-stacking).
Yeah, I actually use the feat method in my [heavily modified] 3.5 game but since the Pathfinder book seems to favor charts (rather than players remembering forumulae) I figured I'd outline my suggestion in the form of a chart instead. That way, everything is visible in the same place without a new player having to remember to reference feats.
Regardless, the fact that we had to wait until UA was released to see the 1st-level +2 issue addressed is something I hope Paizo addresses in the Pathfinder RPG core rulebook rather than later add-ons. IMO it was a glaring flaw in 3.0 and *should* have been addressed in 3.5 core.
If I recall correctly, specifically outlining how to make a character was one thing that wasn't allowed by the OGL
I think that was the d20 license. OGL allows character generation, or things like MCWoD or Arcana Unearthed, not to mention True 20 would not have been possible (they all have character generation rules in them and are fully usable without the 3e core books - just like Pathfinder will be)
I guess they're not in Alpha because they haven't been changed (yet)
Alpha only has changes in it. The Beta will be complete.
the Pathfinder book seems to favor charts (rather than players remembering forumulae)
That's just because 3e presented everything as charts, too. I think it's easier, especially for new players.
The formulae are still there.
I guess we'll see in Beta what Multiclassing will be like in PF.
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I would really like to see the fractional BAB and Save bonuses from Unearthed Arcana become core in Pathfinder, as they are simply far more sensible. I'm a fan of the class/class/bridge prestige class dynamic of 3.5 (like the Mystic Theurge and Enlightened Fist), and I don't think players should be punished for multiclassing between two classes with average BAB (cleric/rogue) nor should they get exceptional benefit from switching between two classes with the same Good save (ranger/barbarian).
There's really no reason a Cleric/Rogue 1/1 would be any worse a fighter than a Rogue 2 or Cleric 2, they all spend the same amount of time fighting. And there's no reason a Ranger/Barbarian 1/1 should have even greater Fortitude than either a Ranger 2 or a Barbarian 2.
The fractional system maintains the illusion of characters who are growing and improving through constant practice, training and "applied learning" (anything with a CR), without the herky jerky DINGS! that the core system provide.
There's really no reason a Cleric/Rogue 1/1 would be any worse a fighter than a Rogue 2 or Cleric 2, they all spend the same amount of time fighting. And there's no reason a Ranger/Barbarian 1/1 should have even greater Fortitude than either a Ranger 2 or a Barbarian 2.
Except one: It's easier to handle. And usually the difference is only in very small numbers like +1 or +2 and what you are lacking in one thing, you make up with another one, for example saves. Even a rogue 5/bard 5/assassin 5 has a BAB of +9 instead of +11 for a rogue 15, and fortitude and reflex saves of +3/+12 instead of +4/+8. And that's usually the greatest gaps you can have.
Except one: It's easier to handle.
Easier to handle in the sense that one looks at a chart and adds rather than having to use formulae to determine BAB and saves. However, I would argue that the chart method I outlined above is just as easy.
And usually the difference is only in very small numbers like +1 or +2 and what you are lacking in one thing, you make up with another one, for example saves. Even a rogue 5/bard 5/assassin 5 has a BAB of +9 instead of +11 for a rogue 15, and fortitude and reflex saves of +3/+12 instead of +4/+8. And that's usually the greatest gaps you can have.
Actually, those save gaps are fairly significant in terms of how published adventures are prepared. Even with a good save (like the Reflex example given) +12 vs. +8 is normally a difference of 8 character levels! Meanwhile, that same character is going to have one fewer attack per round (+9/+4 vs. +11/+6/+1) while hitting and confirming criticals as if they had a -2 penalty.
In otherwords, they'll be numerically better in that one save, but due to the way in which adventure challenges are designed, that character would have already excelled on those Reflex saves anyway. Meanwhile, as Gailbraithe points out, their contributions in a fight are going to lag behind... and for fairly unrealistic/illogical reasons.
Just because D&D is a game of fantasy and imagination does not mean that realism and logic should go out the window. Rather, it makes verisimilitude and the suspension of disbelief all the more important. Some things are worth a tab more work (or at least a change from what we find easy due to force-of-habit).
Interesting read, do you have an idea how to handle gestalt character as fluently as multiclass characters?
Sure, just give them the good BAB and good saves at every level. ;D
In all seriousness though, the important thing to remember about Gestalts is this: At each character level, only the better of the two class' values for each stat actually matters. We count only the higher value for that character level.
In otherwords, if one of the classes has a good BAB, it is irrelevant if the other class has an average or poor BAB. That particular character level is counted as a good BAB level, not as a poor or average BAB level.
Thus, the same basic technique I mentioned earlier still works***, we just change the methodology slightly to what follows:
1. Start with BAB.
2. Write "good", "average" and "poor" as headings on a piece of paper.
3. At each character level, note what the better of the two BABs is for the two classes. Place a tick mark under the appropriate heading.
4. Do not count any character level more than once!
5. Once You are done, reference the number of tick-marks under each heading as the level on the BAB chart, and add the BAB values together.
6. Repeat this process for each of the 3 saving throws.
EXAMPLE TABLE: (LVL = Level, Good=Good BAB, Avg=Average BAB, oor=Poor BAB)
LVL Good Avg. Poor
1 .. 1.0 .. 0.7 .. 0.5
2 .. 2.0 .. 1.5 .. 1.0
3 .. 3.0 .. 2.2 .. 1.5
4 .. 4.0 .. 3.0 .. 2.0
5 .. 5.0 .. 3.7 .. 2.5
6 .. 6.0 .. 4.5 .. 3.0
7 .. 7.0 .. 5.2 .. 3.5
8 .. 8.0 .. 6.0 .. 4.0
9 .. 9.0 .. 6.7 .. 4.5
etc.
*** Caveat: With Gestalts it is crucial to know what pair of classes are taken at each character level. Without tracking this, it becomes anyone's guess what stats to use at each character level (in which case no method will help You).
It actually wasn't until 3.5 came out that I and those I play with realized that we had been doing it 'wrong' the whole time.
We had always just looked at our level and (if the bab for both classes was the same), we then looked to the chart.
Which would be a great way of doing things, and not that hard, too:
BAB: To determine your BAB, combine levels from classes with the same BAB and look at the table (i.e. Rog3/Clr3 looks at level 6 of either class table, or at the medium BAB table entry in the multiclass section)
Saves: For each save, combine levels from classes with the same progression (Ftr3/Rng3 has fort like Ftr6 - or level 6 of strong progression entry in multiclass sections)
When someone balks, tell him it's optional but it will make his character more powerful and he'd be all over that book.
Sure, just give them the good BAB and good saves at every level. ;D
That is pretty much true :) Thanks for the tips, this helps our play a lot.
Actually, those save gaps are fairly significant in terms of how published adventures are prepared. Even with a good save (like the Reflex example given) +12 vs. +8 is normally a difference of 8 character levels! Meanwhile, that same character is going to have one fewer attack per round (+9/+4 vs. +11/+6/+1) while hitting and confirming criticals as if they had a -2 penalty.In otherwords, they'll be numerically better in that one save, but due to the way in which adventure challenges are designed, that character would have already excelled on those Reflex saves anyway. Meanwhile, as Gailbraithe points out, their contributions in a fight are going to lag behind... and for fairly unrealistic/illogical reasons.
Though it's rather off the topic, I disagree on that: There are practically infinite many possible character builds out there and it's impossible to tell what kind of characters will face this encounter. Even if you suppose that the party will have a rogue, one rogue build may have a reflex save far above the one of another rogue build. It's allways possible the rogue of one particular group has multiclassed as fighter or sorcerer, or he may or may not have been hit by the dexterity damage poison some point earlier in the adventure. And it's also completely possible, that the fighter says "Let me go first here" and spring the trap.
As an adventure designer, particulary for published adventures, you have to prepare for a very wide range of possibilities. If someone has a reflex save of +14 or +16 must not make a significant difference. And there's also always the 1d20 involved, making about everything possible.To have a statistically significantly varying level of success with a modifier difference of +3, you would have to have extremely long adventures with hundreds and thousands of that particulary roll, and even then, it's not practically possible for the designer to take this slight variation into account.
I agree that for us to further pursue that line of discussion would be off-topic. While I understand where You are coming from, I've already said my piece which can be summed up as, "If numerical differences have little to no bearing on the outcome, then there is no point in worrying about them much less employing a game system whose rules are based upon statistics". Therefore I won't debate the issue any further. I shall simply agree to disagree.
Since we have gotten off topic, I'll reiterate the purpose for which I created this thread:
Unearthed Arcana's Fractional BAB/Save rules come right out and state that the +2 save bonus at 1st level was intended to be a one-time benefit. In the spirit of the intended design, it makes sense to make a course correction in Pathfinder to finally live up to that goal. Therefore, my goal was to outline a method that makes it easy to do so.