Jemini is in favor of having the battle with the bandits. Preferably at dawn the next day - this will give the casters at least a chance to really trip-out their options.
Well you the talker. See if you can get him to give us the night to think it over, conveen with our gods or somthing?
Actually - to my understanding - those are the terms previously already discussed and agreed upon by the Stag Lord.
He has a beastly offense for sure.
But I'm betting alcoholic pycho boys will save isn't that hot especially unraged. Presumably Verik has hold person. And with no cleric of his own, blindness could take him out of the fight all together with an unlucky fort save.
Or he might get stupid and decide to fight at the front of his men and we range him down.
Is there a map of the fort handy?
How far from the walls to the treeline?
It's probably a good 500 feet to the treeline.
Seeing as we are getting relatively close to ending the first chapter, we have a decision to make. Do you want to know the rules of kingdom building, or do you want to make more general declarations and let me do the numbers and describe it? Do you want some combination of those?
I'd like the rules. I really like the system. May I also make a small suggestion? I'd like to suggest that forest hexes only count as 1/2 for consumption, and mountains and swamps as 1/4. Almost no-on elives there in comparison, and you never build off-screen villages of infrastructure like you do with plains/hills. They are useless squares, and yet its silly for us to be making lines through forests to link up arable plains. This means forests aren't totally undesirable. It really worked in a home game I ran using kingdom building rules.
I'd prefer the more grand strategy approach to things; in my IRL group I had to fight hard to get a city to build as I pleased (the cultural haven of our kingdom) - whereas the capital and the rest of the kingdom are an industry-heavy quagmire with little to recommend it other than really high economy.
The idea of changing consumption on forest and mountain/swamp is interesting, but not necessarily justified. The consumption represents how hard it is for us to control it, not how convenient. Once we have it - there will certainly be people that will settle in those areas, even if the big towns are not located there. Additionally if we were to attract dwarven or elven settlers, they would presumably prefer the mountain/forest areas.
Anyway - my vote for "Grand Strategy"; which will also be nicer to represent in-game as council votes and the like. As opposed to micromanaging several towns and villages. In the long-run that would be prohibitive with a couple of real-time days spent on sorting out strategies and build-plans.
I'm sure DM Barcas can make the general-declaration things interesting and mechanically strong enough for us to make tough decisions.
I will be doing a modified version. For instance, the focus of the economy wont be magic items, as is the only real option in the RAW. I'll post them in full when we are ready. Any discussion can be done here in the OOC thread. The rules can be in spoilers so you don't have to look behind the curtain if you don't want to.
Why not keep the IC chatter, voting and such, in the IC thread and the mechanical explanations here? Personally, I'd like to at least see the rules/mechanics to get a better idea of what we're deciding on.
Edit; Ninjad ;)
BTW, now that I finally have my copies of both UM and UC, I can see some tweaks in Taisper's future for sure. A couple of the new inquisitor feats are pretty pimp.
The Paizo booth was even crazier this year at GenCon than it was last year! I went there first thing Thursday morning, just like an hour or so after the con hall opened, and there was already a line to purchase goods that stretched out of their booth area and 30' down one of the aisles. The guys working couldn't keep UC stocked on the table for more than a few minutes at a time, and this was all while the majority of con-goers were stuck in the 3-hour-plus will-call waiting line!
Relatedly, I ended up chatting with Matthew Grau of Wildfire games (who I had never heard of until that moment) for a bit on Friday, and bought his Cthulhu Tech core book. Any of y'all played it? It looks badass, and the combat system is both ablative and d10-based, but I didn't buy it for that. I like the combo of mecha, the Mythos, and a Macross-like global war setting. Looks fun.
I've heard of Chtulu-tech and your description makes it sound fun, but I haven't ever palyed it.
I know consumptions about resources to maintain a region, but I find forests prohibitive, unless you can build lumber camps for relatively cheap, to lower consumption of some forests. Elves and Dwarves are all well and good, but they come only in tiny numbers, which are glossed over by the kingdom making rules, it only counts decent populations of farmers and peasants who work almost directly for the kingdom. I admit that its not a very simualtionist move, but neither is it totally dissociated and I think it really helps the rules chug along.
@DMBarcas: I'm interested to see how you take out the magic item aspect, I'm planning to do the same in my own use of kingdom rules, but I'm not sure how yet. Its a really wonky part of the system as is.
I'd like to descend at least initially into the crunch.
If it seems as if its detracting from the spirit of the remainder of the game we can also switch to a more high level approach.
I had looked at the magic-item rules myself, and thought they should be toned down a step (minor items become magical items up to 300gp, medium items become minor, and major become medium). A single major item can be made in a city capable of medium items provided it has at least 20000 citizens. In exchange for this power-drop, a city's economy goes up by +1 per 1000 citizens.
But there's no empirical back-up of this being a good rule.
I think thats a pretty solid solution. Nothing drives economy like cities, and nothing boosts population like cities in the kingdom rules.
I'm going to build Pitax (the nearest kingdom to the west) with the rules I have envisioned. If I am satsfied, that is the system we will use.
Okay, here's what I've got so far. Give me your feedback (if you want to know how the system works.) This assumes you have the basic knowledge of kingdom building. If you need that, we can put it in.
Link to the building costs and benefit charts. I have 50 buildings of various types. The biggest change is that I have completely removed the magic item economy, instead having it be simply economy rolls. (I really do not like the idea of the magic item economy.)
I also have six land improvements, rather than just farms, to give some variety of choices.
Other proposed changes:
* Consumption is increased by 1 per 9x9 square (instead of 1 per 36x36 square) inside the city. I've compensated by adding food buildings to reduce consumption.
* To compensate for the loss of magic item sales, the Economy check will be divided by 4 instead of 5 at 40 squares, by 3 at 80 squares, and by 2 at 160 squares. (I have not done the math on this, but the amount you can make off magic items on kingdoms of that size is pretty astronomical and utterly dwarfs the economy roll BP.)
The kingdom turn would go like so, to keep all rolling at the same time:
UPKEEP
1. Stability Check
2. Pay Consumption
3. Economy Check/Income Roll
4. Unrest
IMPROVEMENT
1. Leadership
2. Claim Hexes
3. Establish/Improve Cities
4. Improve Hexes
6. Set Edicts (Edicts can now be multiplied by city buildings!)
EVENTS
1. Kingdom Event
2. PC Response
I'm a little tired, so forgive me if this is scatterbrained. I'll clean it up in the morning. I'd appreciate some thoughts until then.
First question; Who are we marrying Jemini off too? ;P
I really like the changes. Thats some solid stuff.
I'll go through it, maybe build an example kingdom with it later. Look at changes from the standard game and try to find any odd corner cases and problems!
I don't have the rules myself though I've familiarized myself somewhat with them through the web, I believe I've grasped the basics, so I won't be much use in the rules discussion though I'll definately pipe in if somthing strikes me.
I'm almost finished with the Excel kingdom spreadsheet that does all the math for you. It should be a whole lot easier to see. I can't take all the credit, as most of the work was already done by others. I just adapted it for our use.
Some of the formatting went away in GoogleDocs, but it should still be functional. If you want to experiment with it, feel free to make your own copy and see what you can come up with!
I've been making a sample kingdom and I've discovered some bugs. So far, after fixing the bugs, I like what I've got. I've played 15 months worth, and the city is coming along nicely. I've yet to see if the ridiculousness that is the magic item economy has been effectively replaced.
Still going through it.
Having not played the AP before I don't really feel qualified to assess the changes so just going with it.
Maybe I missed it: I did not notice any mention of how the city's base cost grows with the various items. How will you determine the purchase ceiling on a city as it grows?
Also, how does the revised system cope with Jemini's grand plan to procure 200 immovable rods and place the city's castle high up floating in the sky?
There's a chart in the DMG that gives a settlement's base cost. I can gen up a chart, if you want.
So far, I've come up with another rule.
* Since Unrest is no longer directly affected by building creation, it can get out of hand relatively quickly if you aren't careful about your Stability. (It also doesn't shoot through the roof immediately as you build tenements.) As a result, I've introduced the ability to pay off Unrest during the Unrest phase. By paying the current Unrest score in BP, reduce Unrest by 1. This represents having the army and city guard working overtime, paying adventurers, and simply bribing the citizenry. (If Unrest gets to 10, as it did after a zombie uprising and several consecutive failed Stability checks in my sample kingdom, it can get very expensive but very necessary. A few good rolls and spending 36 BP later, unrest was back to 0.)
I've done 28 months with my sample kingdom. It has the following statistics:
Sample Kingdom
Size 17 Control DC 37
Economy +36
Loyalty +8
Stability +32
Population 8000
Cities 1
*Sample City 1: 3 House, 1 City Guard, 2 Watchtower, 1 Barracks, 1 Jail, 3 Shop, 1 Inn, 1 Market, 1 Mill, 1 Town Commons, 1 Butcher
Current Unrest 1
Current Treasury 16 BP
Consumption 0 (17 size, 1 city, 5 edicts, -23 farms)
Promotion Aggressive Taxation Normal Festivals 1/year
Remember, there's no magic item sales. The kingdom produces between 7 and 11 BP per turn from Economy. Once it gets into the 21-40 tier, the Economy roll will be divided by 4 instead of 5 (to mimic the effect of medium/major magic item sales), which will allow it to ramp up faster for multiple cities. Have any of you played with the normal rules to compare this to?
That looks like a nice kingdom in the making - and the fact that you put effort into that means that you at least have a hope for us to get passed the Stag Lord ;)
I'm playing in a Kingmaker (real life) that uses the by-the-book rules. We've reached "king" size and have I think 130ish economy. The magic item sales account for about 80 BP a month, then another 25-odd from economy.
Looking at your sample kingdom, I'm wondering what the incentive is for "Loyalty" development. Your simulation should fail pretty much all loyalty checks (other than "20"s if you play with auto-success).
I think it will be worthwhile to draw up a base-cost chart, as city size/population is not a good metric in-and-off itself to determine purchase/market capacity. One town that has fairs, markets, harbors, and so forth sees a completely different purchase potential from another that is an equally-sized town surviving on dogmatist religion and outlying farming communities.
PS - an errant thought: it would be neat if our towns developed qualities and disadvantages (as outlined in the GameMasteryGuide). Perhaps the "Loyalty" score could be used in some way to generate such city traits periodically until the cultural identity of a town settles itself.
Having not played the AP before I don't really feel qualified to assess the changes so just going with it.
Ditto here.
The kingdom is a LE kingdom that rules through fear. They're a bunch of dicks, really. The Loyalty doesn't come up too often early in the game. It comes up in a few of the events. I plan on using Loyalty as sort of a background stat. If you ignore your Loyalty, don't expect many of the NPCs to like you very much. (It's also used heavily in fielding armies.)
With 130 Economy, a King-sized (with my Economy/2 system) would generate 65 BP or so a month. Add some taxes for an added benefit, and you're not too far from the numbers as written. (I think that in my system, an equally-sized kingdom in terms of hexes will actually have a larger Economy because of the new buildings and hex choices.)
The GMG qualities/disadvantages is an interesting thing to think about. I'll pull it out and take a look.
Hey ppl. Sorry for dropping off the radar but I've been having issues with my internet connection, the wife accidentally pulled the power plug, twice, and I can't connect. I'm posting this from my mothers. Hopefully I'll have this resolved before long.
When we get to the battle with the Stag Lord, let's enforce a strict adherence to Initiative. This is an important battle. Deserves to get the proper treatment of the rules. Plus I want to be the one who writes his death scene! (Assuming that you win!)
Roger that :)
For reasons that will eventually come clear, the choice of obscuring mist is somewhat ironic. It plays really well into a piece of the Stag Lord's background that has not yet been revealed. (It's also not in the adventure as written. I made some extensive changes.)
I hope everybody survives the adventure. I'm very attached to these characters. Of course, if they are killed, that will make it mean something. I'm taking the dice as they fall!
FEAR!
I love the kingdom doc, I think I have the one you modified. I just started a kingdom in my serpent's skull game at home, so your changes may be very interesting for me!
Your players are forming a kingdom on Smuggler's Shiv?? I have my reservations about the neighbours (the cannibals).
Do not wish to delay things. If I'm starting the combat in current position I'll double move to Q-13 just outside the cloud.
FEAR!
I love the kingdom doc, I think I have the one you modified. I just started a kingdom in my serpent's skull game at home, so your changes may be very interesting for me!
[/lurk] Also interested in this. I am running SS for my IRL game and am intrigued on what you are doing.
Ha! Not on the Smuggler's Shiv! They got to Saventh-Yhi, but along the way decided that both Sargava and Wakeena are dicks, so they have decided to found the Free Kingdom of Saventh-Yhi. This gives them alot more motivation for the the rest of taming Saventh-Yhi and the latter half of the campaign, and lets me use they kingmaker rules, which I adore.
They just founded it last game, and I reccomend adding in loads of little tribes near the city to give interest. For example they recruited people from nearby regions, and there are two big tribes that rule land nearby that they can trade, talk or fight with as time goes on. The only risk is that it may be time consuming. But some of the fifth and fourth adventures are easily cut.
Whoa! 50 ft. of movement? Not bad. Looks like DR2, as well, can't remember if I already knew that. But Berrin's by me! Sweet! Finally get to use Solo Tactics (Precise Strike), I'm psyched, even if it is just an extra d6. Might get some use outta Judgment/Piercing, too, though that doesn't seem particularly likely.
Really interested to see what Akiros does.
Holy s&%~. With those saves I may forget the Stag Lord anyway. +13 fort! Over 100 hp!
I'm crying a little bit.
I can sympathize, my post along those lines would be: 29hp vs 102hp *faint*.
On the plus side, evil-eye hits regardless. I worry about whoever has to bend over for the big boy. Surviving a single round against this behemoth is not a given.
It seems we can pretty much expect him to drop someone a round. Something like (+15/+10) or better with hefty damage and I might stay up with a low secondary attack roll or low damage rolls.
Not seeing much option but packing on him, flanking and trying to get him before he gets all of us, particularly given Akiros might be expected to surrender afterwards.
But yeah his AC is low so we can hopefully do it. Eye on his AC will last at least one round.
Can't really see 3rd level spellcasters getting through his other saves. High level superstitious barbarian, forget it.
Dunno maybe Akiros is a better target for the blind particularly if the Stag Lord drops me or Taisper? Losing Berrin as well with Akiros' next attack would be .. bad. Short of some sort of heroic crit and I think we would be TPK at that point.
Edit: Didn't see Tandlara's post on the main thread.
Hello there. :-)
If you will excuse the threadjack, may I ask if you will be going on the hunt for another player, i.e. starting a recruitment thread or some such? I have been checking out your adventures on and off -seeing as I do not want to spoil too much of the Kingmaker AP for myself- and noticed your magus player retiring due to connection problems, which is why I am asking.
If I need more players, then I'll post the recruitment. I'm always holding out hope that Zander's going to return, as I have some vicious plans for him. But if we have need of another, I'll keep you in mind.
Alrighty then. Here is to hoping. ;-)
Well, have fun! Cheers!
I kicked the Stag Lord down a notch, to make him a wee bit more manageable. I wrote out his combat post last night, but he killed both Corwin and Berrin with a single cleave attack. (There was a crit involved. He dealt 60+ damage to one of them.) Fortunately, I wanted to change something and the rolls were different next time I typed out the post.
Holy... Fuuu...
Max damage was a bummer but two hits is pretty much death on anyone regardless.
Its Ok I liked Corwin but have another character idea ready to go :)
I'm just glad I didn't miss that attack.
Corwin's still kickin'! He may yet live, especially if Jemini arrives to tick the Drag Lord off.