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G'day fellow PF enthusiasts and Paizonians! I am seeking a quick clarification on the RAW vs RAI on the Tallow Bombs introduced in Broken Tusk Moon. The text, according to AoN (alas, I do not own the book) is as follows.
A mixture of rendered animal fat and acids designed to ignite the fat when exposed to air, a tallow bomb creates a splash of burning oil that adheres to skin, clothes, and hair. A tallow bomb deals the listed fire damage, persistent fire damage, and splash damage. On a critical hit, a living creature taking persistent fire damage from a tallow bomb is sickened 1 from the stench of burning fat and can't reduce its sickened value below 1 while the persistent fire damage lasts. Many types of tallow bombs grant an item bonus to attack rolls.
Tallow Bomb (Lesser)
Item 1
Source Pathfinder #175: Broken Tusk Moon pg. 75
Price 3 gp
Bulk L
The bomb deals 1d4 persistent fire damage and 1 fire splash damage.
After some debate on the Pathfinder 2E Discord, I'm willing to agree that because Persistent Damage is a condition, it does not benefit from precision damage generated by–for example–a rogue's sneak attack. Because there is no "listed fire damage", the first actual damage type listed by the bomb is the "1 fire splash damage."
This seems like an oversight, where the RAI clearly intended there to be a "1 fire damage" at the start as is the case for an Acid Flask. RAW, we're looking at a rogue dealing 1d4 persistent fire damage and 3d6+1 fire splash with a lesser Tallow Bomb.
It would, of course, be ridiculous to allow precision damage to apply to a splash, but I figured I may as well post about it to clarify that this was a RAW/RAI issue and not a deliberate, if baffling, design choice.
My guess is a wording problem caused by revisions. One of the earlier iterations of Tallow Bomb had it dealing initial damage on a hit in addition to the persistent damage and splash damage. But later changes before release removed the initial fire damage. So the RAI is to not have the initial damage and the wording in the description needs to be changed to, "A tallow bomb deals the listed fire damage, persistent fire damage, and splash damage." Which would make it match Acid Flask almost exactly - different damage type and slightly different damage die size.
But there is no way to be sure without errata, so don't expect consensus.
And I don't think that Bomb weapons qualify for Sneak Attack in any case. I thought bombs were their own subcategory of weapon, so they wouldn't be a ranged weapon like a bow or sling that does qualify. The closest would be a weapon with the Thrown trait - but the bombs don't have agile or finesse traits that would allow Sneak Attack. Swashbuckler with Flying Blade is similar - no agile or finesse trait. So maybe Precision Ranger would get precision damage with bomb weapons. But I am not sure how to make it work mechanically. It would certainly be a sub-par choice of weapon for a Ranger.
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there is no way to be sure without errata, so don't expect consensus.
LOL Good luck with errata, as they usually only errata hardbacks when they're reprinted :P
there is no way to be sure without errata, so don't expect consensus.LOL Good luck with errata, as they usually only errata hardbacks when they're reprinted :P
Yes. I am aware of that.
The bomb has the fire trait so it deals fire damage. But the amount of damage is 0.
A couple problems I have with this:
* The Fire trait does not necessarily mean that something deals fire damage.
* It would get the Fire trait because of dealing damage just from dealing the persistent fire damage. The Acid Flask has the Acid trait without dealing any initial acid damage. So it doesn't necessarily deal 0 Fire damage as a base damage.
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Yes. I am aware of that.
I know you're aware of it. It was for the others that read the thread that might not. It's better to cross your fingers and hope a wandering Developer pops in and gives a ruling than waiting for errata, so I thought it best to say something so they didn't get their hopes up for errata. ;)
I know you're aware of it. It was for the others that read the thread that might not. It's better to cross your fingers and hope a wandering Developer pops in and gives a ruling than waiting for errata, so I thought it best to say something so they didn't get their hopes up for errata. ;)
Ah, yes. That is a good point.
My purpose in saying that is more the idea that the way it is currently written doesn't lead to consensus. So without the errata that likely will never arrive, we can't figure out what the developer who created it actually wanted it to work like.
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And I don't think that Bomb weapons qualify for Sneak Attack in any case. I thought bombs were their own subcategory of weapon, so they wouldn't be a ranged weapon like a bow or sling that does qualify.
Not exactly, but the end result is the same as they are "martial thrown weapons with a range increment of 20 feet", so even ruffians don't get sneak attack with bombs. Link for reference: Alchemical Bombs
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I'm not entirely sure what would happen if something added precision damage to Tallow Bombs, but looking at the wording of Precision Damage (and also the fairly clear RAI IMO) it seems as though it only ever applies to a target that you "hit" with an ability that grants precision damage, and you aren't hitting targets that take splash damage, you're only ever hitting the main target, and that assumes that it is, in fact, a hit. So in my mind it either doesn't work because there's no damage to increase, or it only increases the damage on the main target.
I could hear out an argument for RAW technically allowing it to work on splash damage if you hit the main target, but RAI... Let's just say it ain't gonna fly at my table.
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And I don't think that Bomb weapons qualify for Sneak Attack in any case. I thought bombs were their own subcategory of weapon, so they wouldn't be a ranged weapon like a bow or sling that does qualify.Not exactly, but the end result is the same as they are "martial thrown weapons with a range increment of 20 feet", so even ruffians don't get sneak attack with bombs. Link for reference: Alchemical Bombs
You get Sneak Attack with Bombs, there's nothing preventing it. It's just that Rogues don't have proficiency, but there are other ways to get either proficiency or Sneak Attack.
And I don't think that Bomb weapons qualify for Sneak Attack in any case. I thought bombs were their own subcategory of weapon, so they wouldn't be a ranged weapon like a bow or sling that does qualify.Not exactly, but the end result is the same as they are "martial thrown weapons with a range increment of 20 feet", so even ruffians don't get sneak attack with bombs. Link for reference: Alchemical Bombs
Bombs are ranged weapons. You can deal sneak attack with all ranged weapons. I don't see how bombs would be an exception.
Bombs are ranged weapons. You can deal sneak attack with all ranged weapons. I don't see how bombs would be an exception.And I don't think that Bomb weapons qualify for Sneak Attack in any case. I thought bombs were their own subcategory of weapon, so they wouldn't be a ranged weapon like a bow or sling that does qualify.Not exactly, but the end result is the same as they are "martial thrown weapons with a range increment of 20 feet", so even ruffians don't get sneak attack with bombs. Link for reference: Alchemical Bombs
For a ranged attack with a thrown melee weapon, that weapon must also be agile or finesse.
As far as I can tell, Bombs have neither agile or finesse. They are also Martial weapons, and Ruffian only allows Sneak Attack with any Simple weapon. So Sneak Attack is pretty much out.
Precision Ranger probably would add precision damage to a Bomb though.
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Bombs are ranged weapons. You can deal sneak attack with all ranged weapons. I don't see how bombs would be an exception.And I don't think that Bomb weapons qualify for Sneak Attack in any case. I thought bombs were their own subcategory of weapon, so they wouldn't be a ranged weapon like a bow or sling that does qualify.Not exactly, but the end result is the same as they are "martial thrown weapons with a range increment of 20 feet", so even ruffians don't get sneak attack with bombs. Link for reference: Alchemical BombsFor a ranged attack with a thrown melee weapon, that weapon must also be agile or finesse.As far as I can tell, Bombs have neither agile or finesse. They are also Martial weapons, and Ruffian only allows Sneak Attack with any Simple weapon. So Sneak Attack is pretty much out.
Precision Ranger probably would add precision damage to a Bomb though.
"If you Strike a creature that has the flat-footed condition with an agile or finesse melee weapon, an agile or finesse unarmed attack, or a ranged weapon attack, you deal an extra 1d6 precision damage. For a ranged attack with a thrown melee weapon, that weapon must also be agile or finesse."
A bomb isn't a melee weapon, an unarmed attack or a thrown melee weapon, so it doesn't matter at all if it's agile or finesse. It's a "ranged weapon attack", and those have no qualifiers for use with sneak attack.
For a ranged attack with a thrown melee weapon, that weapon must also be agile or finesse.As far as I can tell, Bombs have neither agile or finesse. They are also Martial weapons, and Ruffian only allows Sneak Attack with any Simple weapon. So Sneak Attack is pretty much out.
Precision Ranger probably would add precision damage to a Bomb though.
As greystone pointed out, thie agile or finesse only applies to thrown melee weapons. Which makes sense since there are no ranged finesse weapons.
The Ruffian can still sneak attack with bombs since his ability to sneak with all simple weapons is in addition to the regular sneak options and doesn't replace it.
The Ruffian can still sneak attack with bombs since his ability to sneak with all simple weapons is in addition to the regular sneak options and doesn't replace it.
Bombs are explicitly martial weapons, so the Ruffian isn't even proficient with them (and won't keep pace with people who are if they acquire proficiency with an archetype.)
The Ruffian can still sneak attack with bombs since his ability to sneak with all simple weapons is in addition to the regular sneak options and doesn't replace it.Bombs are explicitly martial weapons, so the Ruffian isn't even proficient with them (and won't keep pace with people who are if they acquire proficiency with an archetype.)
That wasn't the question though was it? It was implied that they couldn't sneak attack with them, not that they wouldn't be proficient with them.
As greystone pointed out, thie agile or finesse only applies to thrown melee weapons. Which makes sense since there are no ranged finesse weapons.
There is the Javelin that is a thrown ranged weapon that also has neither agile or finesse.
Personally, I think this also falls into the category of a weapon's category depends on how it is currently being used in addition to its inherent traits. Similar to how a 1-hand weapon is a 2-hand weapon when being used in two hands and lets you use feats that need a 2-handed weapon, but can't be shifted to other 2-handed weapons using the shifting rune because of its inherent 1-hand nature.
So a melee weapon being thrown would always be a ranged weapon at the time of throwing it.
So Sneak Attack would need to have the 'melee' part of that last line removed to actually behave that way. "For a ranged attack with a thrown melee weapon, that weapon must also be agile or finesse.
But that is still how I would rule it. You don't get to Sneak Attack with Bombs or Javelins(non-Ruffian).
The Ruffian can still sneak attack with bombs since his ability to sneak with all simple weapons is in addition to the regular sneak options and doesn't replace it.
I would definitely agree with that. The Ruffian racket adds additional weapon options, but doesn't remove any that you would otherwise have.
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There is also the Seedpod and Foxfire unarmed ranged attacks. By RAW, I don't think that those work since unarmed attacks have to also have agile or finesse. But since simple ranged weapons work, I am not sure why unarmed ranged 'weapons' don't - and I would probably allow it.
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As greystone pointed out, thie agile or finesse only applies to thrown melee weapons. Which makes sense since there are no ranged finesse weapons.There is the Javelin that is a thrown ranged weapon that also has neither agile or finesse.
Personally, I think this also falls into the category of a weapon's category depends on how it is currently being used in addition to its inherent traits. Similar to how a 1-hand weapon is a 2-hand weapon when being used in two hands and lets you use feats that need a 2-handed weapon, but can't be shifted to other 2-handed weapons using the shifting rune because of its inherent 1-hand nature.
So a melee weapon being thrown would always be a ranged weapon at the time of throwing it.
So Sneak Attack would need to have the 'melee' part of that last line removed to actually behave that way. "For a ranged attack with a thrown
meleeweapon, that weapon must also be agile or finesse.But that is still how I would rule it. You don't get to Sneak Attack with Bombs or Javelins(non-Ruffian).
The Ruffian can still sneak attack with bombs since his ability to sneak with all simple weapons is in addition to the regular sneak options and doesn't replace it.I would definitely agree with that. The Ruffian racket adds additional weapon options, but doesn't remove any that you would otherwise have.
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There is also the Seedpod and Foxfire unarmed ranged attacks. By RAW, I don't think that those work since unarmed attacks have to also have agile or finesse. But since simple ranged weapons work, I am not sure why unarmed ranged 'weapons' don't - and I would probably allow it.
You're going far away in your reasoning. The reason why thrown melee weapons need to be Agile or Finesse is because non-Agile or Finesse thrown melee weapons get higher dice. But for pure ranged weapons like Javelins, Bombs or Leshy Seedpod, there's no question: Sneak Attack applies. You can houserule it the other way, but I strongly question this houserule considering that Bows get Sneak Attack bonus and they are clearly the best ranged weapons.
The reason why thrown melee weapons need to be Agile or Finesse is because non-Agile or Finesse thrown melee weapons get higher dice.
The ones that I have seen do 1d6 instead of 1d4. Are you seeing other non-agile, non-finesse melee weapons with the thrown trait that have higher base damage when thrown?
I'm not sure that 1 point per damage die is much of a consideration for balance reasons. Especially on weapons that add your STR mod to their damage rolls.
Being able to Sneak Attack with a weapon that also possibly does persistent damage, splash damage, or applies conditions would be more of a consideration. And don't some of the bombs also have 1d6 as their base initial damage?
The ones that I have seen do 1d6 instead of 1d4. Are you seeing other non-agile, non-finesse melee weapons with the thrown trait that have higher base damage when thrown?
Three Peaked Tree 1d8 and Trident 1d8 and neither are agile/finesse.
Being able to Sneak Attack with a weapon that also possibly does persistent damage, splash damage, or applies conditions would be more of a consideration. And don't some of the bombs also have 1d6 as their base initial damage?
I'd be more inclined to think that they weren't really given much to be honest: it's a consumable vs a permanent weapon so even if it was outside of the calculations for a normal weapon, being consumable could account for that.
There is also the Seedpod and Foxfire unarmed ranged attacks. By RAW, I don't think that those work since unarmed attacks have to also have agile or finesse. But since simple ranged weapons work, I am not sure why unarmed ranged 'weapons' don't - and I would probably allow it.
I don't understand why unarmed doesn't work like weapons in a LOT of places, not just here. So I'd have no issue with someone houseruling to allowing unarmed to 'count' as weapons in places.
The reason why thrown melee weapons need to be Agile or Finesse is because non-Agile or Finesse thrown melee weapons get higher dice.Being able to Sneak Attack with a weapon that also possibly does persistent damage, splash damage, or applies conditions would be more of a consideration. And don't some of the bombs also have 1d6 as their base initial damage?
Bombs definitely benefit from Sneak Attack in the current state of the rules. Is it the developer intent, no one can know but them, but it doesn't look like they spoke about changing anything about it. Also, Bombs deal less damage than bows at high level (and because Sneak Attack comes at level 6 as you have a better feat at level 4 for bombs, I tend to look at the mid to high levels where bows are definitely better). So, it doesn't feel like there's an issue there.
And I don't think that Bomb weapons qualify for Sneak Attack in any case. I thought bombs were their own subcategory of weapon, so they wouldn't be a ranged weapon like a bow or sling that does qualify.Not exactly, but the end result is the same as they are "martial thrown weapons with a range increment of 20 feet", so even ruffians don't get sneak attack with bombs. Link for reference: Alchemical Bombs"If you Strike a creature that has the flat-footed condition with an agile or finesse melee weapon, an agile or finesse unarmed attack, or a ranged weapon attack, you deal an extra 1d6 precision damage. For a ranged attack with a thrown melee weapon, that weapon must also be agile or finesse."
A bomb isn't a melee weapon, an unarmed attack or a thrown melee weapon, so it doesn't matter at all if it's agile or finesse. It's a "ranged weapon attack", and those have no qualifiers for use with sneak attack.
You know, I never really considered that a "Melee weapon with the thrown trait" was different from a "weapon with the thrown trait", but it looks like there are several thrown ranged weapons, and the sneak attack feature does specify that the thrown trait clause only applies to melee weapons... huh. I stand corrected.
You know, I never really considered that a "Melee weapon with the thrown trait" was different from a "weapon with the thrown trait", but it looks like there are several thrown ranged weapons, and the sneak attack feature does specify that the thrown trait clause only applies to melee weapons... huh. I stand corrected.
You aren't the only one that was 'thrown' by it. [forgive the pun] I know the wording seems a bit odd, especially with the ruling that melee/ranged depends on how you use a weapon, but there really isn't any other way to describe the difference between ranged only weapons that are thrown and those that can be used as both thrown and melee. The only way I've been able to think of would be to make a different trait for ranged only, say Hurled, that does the same thing but only gets put on ranged only weapons.
What's interesting is that you can sneak attack with a "boulder, log, table, wagon, or chunk of earth". When you use Oversized Throw it counts as a "simple ranged weapon": you get to use 1d10's but don't have any magic bonuses to hit so it evens out.
You know, I never really considered that a "Melee weapon with the thrown trait" was different from a "weapon with the thrown trait", but it looks like there are several thrown ranged weapons, and the sneak attack feature does specify that the thrown trait clause only applies to melee weapons... huh. I stand corrected.
Same.
It seems strange. It feels a bit off. Especially with things like improvised weapons and the Oversized Thrower making random things into simple ranged weapons that do qualify no matter their traits, but not allowing Foxfire and Seedpod.
But ... I have no argument that it isn't RAW.
It seems strange. It feels a bit off. Especially with things like improvised weapons
Improvised weapons are 100% at the DM discretion, so it's up to them if something is a simple ranged weapon or a simple melee weapon with the Thrown Trait. If the DM wished, they could, by RAW, say that there ARE no improvised ranged weapon but all are melee weapons with thrown. So at least they do not have to be an issue if it feels wrong.
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Bombs definitely benefit from Sneak Attack in the current state of the rules. Is it the developer intent, no one can know but them, but it doesn't look like they spoke about changing anything about it. Also, Bombs deal less damage than bows at high level (and because Sneak Attack comes at level 6 as you have a better feat at level 4 for bombs, I tend to look at the mid to high levels where bows are definitely better). So, it doesn't feel like there's an issue there.The reason why thrown melee weapons need to be Agile or Finesse is because non-Agile or Finesse thrown melee weapons get higher dice.Being able to Sneak Attack with a weapon that also possibly does persistent damage, splash damage, or applies conditions would be more of a consideration. And don't some of the bombs also have 1d6 as their base initial damage?
This is a rare case where we do actually have clear indication of developer intent - the alchemist multiclass archetype explicitly mentions sneak attacking with bombs in its description.
This is a rare case where we do actually have clear indication of developer intent - the alchemist multiclass archetype explicitly mentions sneak attacking with bombs in its description.
Cool. I'll take it. That's a pretty obscure place to put it though.
Any indication of how it is intended to work for a bomb that doesn't deal any direct damage?
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This is a rare case where we do actually have clear indication of developer intent - the alchemist multiclass archetype explicitly mentions sneak attacking with bombs in its description.Cool. I'll take it. That's a pretty obscure place to put it though.
Any indication of how it is intended to work for a bomb that doesn't deal any direct damage?
Sneak attack adds precision damage of the same type to the damage you'd normally inflict. Weakness spells out situations where you can have a weakness to something that doesn't inflict damage and it works similar: Weakness adds to the damage dealt and is the same type too.
So it COULD work the same way. The game isn't super clear on "extra" damage.