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You can see Wes' original e-mails in the blog post and much lengthier follow-ups in the comments. While the back-and-forth exchanges are primarily concerned with Half-Orcs, you can absolutely see how this would apply to Goblins in PF2.
While here are some selected excerpts, I suggest reading the blog/comments for the full comments and more context...but you can see how it struck me in relation to Goblins.
First, regarding half-orcs… the direction we took with them in their racial description is one we went back and forth over, and in the end we decided to go with the darker, grittier version. Golarion (and Pathfinder) often skews toward mature topics, and while we did tone down the language a bit for half-orcs, retaining their brutal and depressing origins was important to us. Certainly not ALL half-orcs are the product of orcs raping humans, but orcs ARE intended to be evil creatures in Pathfinder, and that’s one way to ensure that point comes across. Especially when there are other very popular game worlds where orcs are presented almost as the good guys. In the end, each and every player gets to choose how his player came to be, and in this case, having a half-orc PC whose parents were loving is a great way to set that character apart from the histories of most half-orcs.
Ultimately, despite many of us having strong personal reactions toward and opinions about elements of our campaign setting, we felt that it was important to include them, taking our setting from the PG status of many games to something closer to PG-13 or even a hard R. It’s our philosophy that facing such elements, including them in our game, and treating them with the gravitas such serious and often personal topics deserve is far preferable to pretending they don’t exist. This is a position that will lose us book sales and will turn off some customers. We know that, and ultimately that is each consumer’s decision. I certainly would not let my 10 year old nephew loose in a library of our works without context and guidance. But Pathfinder is also a game about choices. The game works just as well without halflings, rangers, and lizardfolk as it does with them. So if there’s any element a GM doesn’t want at her game table, the game is entirely hers to customize, and I believe the stronger for it.
That’s what excited me so much about Brie’s emails, article, and the discussion I hope will follow. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game’s pedigree stretches back not just through decades of roleplaying games but through more than a century of fiction. In the context of such a tradition change is sometimes revolutionary, but more often it’s evolutionary. In the case of the half-orc, we didn’t want to be subtractive in our updates to the 3.5 rules set, and in including them in our rules and stories hearkened to a tradition I suspect started with Tolkien’s Uruk-hai and had been propagated through roleplaying games since some of their earliest days. The creators of those early games, the sensibilities of those times, and the players of those games are not the creators, sensibilities, and players of today, though. Our inclusion of half-orcs in Pathfinder erred on the side of tradition, but there’s obviously work to be done. You can read my thoughts and accounting of our thinking on half-orcs above, but I hope everyone views that for what it is: a starting point.
Personally, I think it’s time half-orcs evolved as a race beyond their stereotypes and assumptions. I think they could be excised and replaced with another race that better satisfies players who want to play “monsters.” Alternatively, this race has seen almost a century of development—maybe it’s time to take them back either in the direction of more mystical origins or for world builders to start acknowledging that yes, humans and orcs can interbreed and the result has led to half-orc communities that present a healthier environment for all members to flourish. That’s doesn’t have to be a “good” society, for folks who like their orcs evil and half-orcs taboo, but it could be a more balanced culture, bringing the focus of what makes a half-orc exceptional back around to their alignment, and not just racism and tragic origins.
Making major changes to races thoroughly established in our world’s continuity is more difficult, though. Saying that there’s one moon today then saying there’s two moons the next is going to raise a lot of eyebrows. With something established, there needs to be logical additions or evolutions. With orcs, maybe those of a lot of areas are crazy–damaged by their exposure to the deepest of Darklands radiations–but maybe that’s not the case all over. That’s a bit tricky considering how strongly so many players feel about orcs, but I don’t think it’s undoable. Half-orcs are easier, though, and I think more discussions about the race of a child born of half-orc parents (or a half-orc and human) will be coming up in the near future. My take is such children will be half-orc (we are NOT going the route of decreasing percentages when it comes to half-races), giving that entire race much more potential to know and not hate their parents. There’s definitely room in the stories we tell for whole communities of half-orcs seeking the comfort of their own kind, though I can’t say quite yet what shape something like this might take as our published works. Ultimately, though, we built the Pathfinder campaign setting to be a place where players can indulge any type of game they want. That’s why we have a viking-themed country, a necromancer’s paradise, an Egyptian-styled region, gothic horror land, Conan-land, knight country, and tons more all on the same map. If we’ve got room for all that, we’ve got room for happy half-orc families and the occasional good-aligned orcs. With additions like that, including the comparatively dull rainbow of human variation should be a breeze, but we always need to know what we’ve missed, so keep letting us know!
I have a half-formed theory here about racial backgrounds and whether PCs embrace them as part of their characters or seek to be exceptions. Like, you certainly get plenty of elves that grew up as elves in Elfland, but far fewer half-orcs or drow who grew up as exemplars of their race. That might have a lot to do with those being less than typical heroic races, but subject matter might factor into some decision as well. Needs more data.
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But they are not. Goblins are the evil race, not the by product of an evil race assaulting humans. Goblins can’t pass themselves off as humans easily as a half orc can. Heck in 1e half orc PCs were specificity stated to be the 10% that looked human enough to pass themselves off as humans. Goblins are the race defined as evil and this not at all like half orcs. Sorry I do not draw the same conclusions you are from these musings.
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I don't really see this as an apples to apples comparison.
Many half-orcs are the result of orcs raping humans, it isn't a common match full of love and butterflies. Goblins however as a PC race are not the product of one of the accepted core races, they aren't a half-breed. Also the way they are written into canon is an evil race full of crazy little monsters that act on pure whim. A half-orc still has a human parent, and while there is still much trepidation concerning them, there are sympathies present among the core races for them as a result of something evil and barbaric that was thrust upon them. As such, they are given the benefit of the doubt.
Where are they going to give the benefit of the doubt to a goblin?
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I've made several posts in another thread, and I shan't repeat them here (you may peruse the last page of 'WHY MAKING GOBLINS A CORE RACE IS A BAD IDEA: AN ESSAY" at your leisure) , but essentially, the way Golarion material presents Half-Orcs, and the way it presents Goblins are not even close to equivalent.
One of them is a race that has worked hard to shift cultural opinions of them for hundreds of years and still get marginalized, hated and killed for no reason even 100 years after they've started making headway.
The others are pests best exterminated quickly lest they breed to unsustainable numbers and cause untold pain and destruction on the surrounding countryside.
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Personally, I think it’s time goblins evolved as a race beyond their stereotypes and assumptions.
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Goblins are partially represented as sadistic killers. Sure, they often worship Lamashtu and what not.
Goblins, even more often, are presented as raccoons that learned how to set fires. The first has been done to death with tons of monsters. Embracing the latter is way more interesting.
Honestly, when they describe goblins in PF, I see a farmer chasing them away from their trash.
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My sincere hope is that the inclusion of goblins in PF2 is a pivot towards "there are no evil races/species, there are merely evil cultures."
If we're talking about undead or outsiders that's one thing because these beings are made of/fueled by energies from outer planes, but nothing from the prime material should be evil for any reasons beyond the choices that they have made. Upbringing, Culture, and Circumstances can't dictate those choices, merely make some more likely than others.
Since I've never run goblins as "sadistic ruthless killers" - raccoons who have learned to set fires is a lot closer to my preference.
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RE: Goblins, this line quoted above by the OP from Wes is relevant:
"Personally, I think it’s time half-orcs evolved as a race beyond their stereotypes and assumptions. I think they could be excised and replaced with another race that better satisfies players who want to play “monsters.”
kind of sounds like Goblins are that other race...
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I'm very much in the raccoons camp myself. Goblins are an unwelcome sight everywhere, but they are largely a tolerable presence. Not nice and not pleasant, but normally more trouble to hunt down than ignore.
Adventure scenarios are, naturally, not normal situations and that is where the ravenous green tide stories get started. There is a big difference between the campfire stories of wicked goblins and how often the little devils actually get brave enough to work up to that level of mischief.
If an ancestry is going to be removed following the playtest, I would strongly prefer Half-Orcs get the axe rather than goblins. Much less baggage with goblins.
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I would like to see mixed heritage be it's own thing. Like have a subsystem showing how to take two ancestries and mash them. It always seemed silly to me to have half-orcs and half-elves, because it assumed the other half had to be human. What if I want to be half elf and half orc? I think that would be doable, and it wouldn't even take too much space.
That blog link was very interesting. I think goblins and half-orcs are definitely comparable for this situation, but it's not a perfect comparison.
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I'm very much in the raccoons camp myself. Goblins are an unwelcome sight everywhere, but they are largely a tolerable presence. Not nice and not pleasant, but normally more trouble to hunt down than ignore.
Adventure scenarios are, naturally, not normal situations and that is where the ravenous green tide stories get started. There is a big difference between the campfire stories of wicked goblins and how often the little devils actually get brave enough to work up to that level of mischief.
Have you read Goblins of Golarion?
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Have you read Goblins of Golarion?I'm very much in the raccoons camp myself. Goblins are an unwelcome sight everywhere, but they are largely a tolerable presence. Not nice and not pleasant, but normally more trouble to hunt down than ignore.
Adventure scenarios are, naturally, not normal situations and that is where the ravenous green tide stories get started. There is a big difference between the campfire stories of wicked goblins and how often the little devils actually get brave enough to work up to that level of mischief.
Or the Inner Sea Race Guide. Or the Advanced Race Guide. Or the Inner Sea World Guide.
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A lot of the older campaign setting and player companion books are pretty outdated and aren't good for much besides a source of mechanics. Like contrast the state of Tieflings in Cheliax in Council of Thieves compared to how they are presented in Hell's Rebels/Vengeance. Over time things got a lot more nuanced, which is a trend I like.
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My sincere hope is that the inclusion of goblins in PF2 is a pivot towards "there are no evil races/species, there are merely evil cultures."
If we're talking about undead or outsiders that's one thing because these beings are made of/fueled by energies from outer planes, but nothing from the prime material should be evil for any reasons beyond the choices that they have made. Upbringing, Culture, and Circumstances can't dictate those choices, merely make some more likely than others.
Since I've never run goblins as "sadistic ruthless killers" - raccoons who have learned to set fires is a lot closer to my preference.
I agree on the raccoon thing for the adventurers and non-raiders. :3
The Goblin Druid in RotR actually didn't want the raids to happen, 'cause he knew the humans would retaliate. He preachedAlso, I guess that the only "races" that currently show "strong" tendencies toward evil that could be players (like, that are human-sized, not human eating per default like ogres), usually have origins deep into the earth, closer to Rovagug, where his influence twisted them in dark mockeries of what they were. Orcs have been on the surface for a long time... far from his influence... They could tend toward neutral... Drows still live underground, so I still think they have reasons to be evil.
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I would like to see mixed heritage be it's own thing. Like have a subsystem showing how to take two ancestries and mash them. It always seemed silly to me to have half-orcs and half-elves, because it assumed the other half had to be human. What if I want to be half elf and half orc? I think that would be doable, and it wouldn't even take too much space.
I like that. I would like to see half-orc and half-elf removed, add in orc as a playable race to go along with goblin and then add a section on mixed races. Probably net neutral as far as space goes and provides a lot more options.
EDIT: It might also be good to break things down with sub sections
Default Races (Elves, Dwarves, Humans, etc.)
Optional: Monstrous Races (Orcs, Goblins)
Optional: Mixed Ancestry
Some flavor text note about how human/elves and human/orcs are a default in Golarion setting.
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A lot of the older campaign setting and player companion books are pretty outdated and aren't good for much besides a source of mechanics. Like contrast the state of Tieflings in Cheliax in Council of Thieves compared to how they are presented in Hell's Rebels/Vengeance. Over time things got a lot more nuanced, which is a trend I like.
The Inner Sea Race Guide is barely three years old. It's not "old" by any estimation, nor does it contradict what is present in Goblins of Golarion or the Inner Sea World Guide.
If you can find newer sources that paint goblins in general in a different light (as opposed to exceptions), then I'll gladly use them.
As it is though, I use what has been published and not retconned.
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If you can find newer sources that paint goblins in general in a different light (as opposed to exceptions), then I'll gladly use them.
I don't think it needs to be said, but you can't really generalize about goblins in general any more than you can generalize about dwarves in general or humans in general. All of these are diverse groups of individuals who make their own choices based on a variety of factors.
Like Goblins are all over on Golarion (they're probably the second most numerous core race). It would be just bizarre if the Goblins in Absalom were exactly the same as the ones in Irrisen or Katapesh. All of those "this is what x is like" are intentionally vague as to give people room to fill in the details with what they want, and what I want is "some goblins aren't monsters". It's not important how many, there will be exactly as many monster goblins and non-monster goblins as there needs to be.
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If you can find newer sources that paint goblins in general in a different light (as opposed to exceptions), then I'll gladly use them.I don't think it needs to be said, but you can't really generalize about goblins in general any more than you can generalize about dwarves in general or humans in general. All of these are diverse groups of individuals who make their own choices based on a variety of factors.
Like Goblins are all over on Golarion (they're probably the second most numerous core race). It would be just bizarre if the Goblins in Absalom were exactly the same as the ones in Irrisen or Katapesh. All of those "this is what x is like" are intentionally vague as to give people room to fill in the details with what they want, and what I want is "some goblins aren't monsters". It's not important how many, there will be exactly as many monster goblins and non-monster goblins as there needs to be.
Intentionally vague? If you read the Inner Sea Race guide, you will see this isn't really true. For example, the Half-Orc chapter clearly stipulates how different views towards Half-Orcs are in Garund when compared to Avistan, precisely because of the difference in relationships those two places have had with Orcs in the past.
Meanwhile, the Goblin chapter makes no such distinctions, and paints goblins as universally reviled, with purges occuring to try and get rid of them. It even includes this, just to drive the point home.
"While goblins rarely shape world history to such an extent, they often leave an indelible stamp on personal and local histories. They steal babies, burn homes, ruin fields, and otherwise destroy lives. Entire communities may see a genuine threat from goblins every decade or so, and many adventurers get their start taming these uprisings. In cities, goblin tribes in ruins or sewers drive out human criminals and thieves’ guilds, and work as pawns in political machinations far beyond their understanding. Goblin filth may speed the spread of plagues, while goblin thieving exacerbates famine. Goblins do not often appear in history tomes, but when they do, they inevitably make the story bloodier."
A Goblin is A Goblin is A Goblin, as presented by the Inner Sea Race Guide. It's not me generalising them, it's the published material. Published material that sees fit to point out exceptions when appropiate.
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Don't you read that as a diagetic ethnography? I certainly do, so a certain amount of sensationalism has to be discounted.
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The Goblin Druid in RotR actually didn't want the raids to happen, 'cause he knew the humans would retaliate. He preached peace, and in my game, actually allied with the PCs (they still had to convince him, and he didn't warn them of the trap, but eh...)
This is very cool and I like it.
But, it should be pointed out that this isn't consistent with the character as written. He is specifically evil. He did not preach "peace", but instead preached, don't do something that is going to come back on us even worse.
I'm not saying you should be constrained by what is written. Quite the opposite on that. I'm all for making things your own and that is *better* than taking it as written.
But this isn't a good example of canon for "peace" coming from goblins.
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The Goblin Druid in RotR actually didn't want the raids to happen, 'cause he knew the humans would retaliate. He preached peace, and in my game, actually allied with the PCs (they still had to convince him, and he didn't warn them of the trap, but eh...)This is very cool and I like it.
But, it should be pointed out that this isn't consistent with the character as written. He is specifically evil. He did not preach "peace", but instead preached, don't do something that is going to come back on us even worse.
I'm not saying you should be constrained by what is written. Quite the opposite on that. I'm all for making things your own and that is *better* than taking it as written.
But this isn't a good example of canon for "peace" coming from goblins.
Yeah, sorry, I know, "Peace" was a bit much. When I reread my post, I was surprised myself that I used that word. It's more like he preached "not all-out war"... But yeah, I still played him as evil, but he still cared for his clan, and worked with the PCs on the specification they don't kill any Goblin except the chieftain. They did exactly as promised (and even didn't steal any loot! ... ok, one rescued a baby from the nursery, but they were in cages, and no goblin cared enough to realize there was a missing one), so he kept his word, became the chieftain and stopped the goblins from attacking Sandpoint for at least a couple of years.
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Don't you read that as a diagetic ethnography? I certainly do, so a certain amount of sensationalism has to be discounted.
I don't, no. Unlike the Book(s) of the Damned, there is nothing to point out that the Inner Sea Race Guide is anything but objective truth. At all. It is the developers telling us how things are in Golarion.
Interestingly, it also gives us their view on Core/Common and Uncommon:
"This book divides races into three types: common, uncommon, and rare. Common races (sometimes also called “core” or “primary” races) are those populous enough to be familiar faces in most major cities around the Inner Sea. Races that aren’t quite as common, but that ordinary folk still generally know about, are referred to here as uncommon races. Those that are hardly ever seen in the Inner Sea region are called rare races."
On the Common/Core races:
"So why have these seven races risen to prominence while the others haven’t? The simple answer is often numbers, as these seven races are far and away the most numerous in the Inner Sea region. Yet often there are other factors at play—boons or faults that eclipse mere birth rate—that allow some cultures to rise while others fall. Each of the so-called “common races” of the Inner Sea region has its own unique strategies or aspects of its personality that has led it to greatness."
And on Uncommon, which includes the Goblin:
"While one can expect to encounter members of the common races presented in this book’s first chapter in almost any settlement or nation in the Inner Sea region, the same cannot be said of the region’s uncommon races. More widespread than the rare races detailed in this book’s third chapter, members of these seven uncommon races may well have entire nations of their own, yet one should not expect to bump into an aasimar, kobold, or orc in just any city. Most common folk live their entire lives without meeting a member of some of the races detailed in this chapter.
This is not to say that they are few in number, though. Orcs, for example, control an entire region in the heart of Avistan—the orcs hordes have ruled the Hold of Belkzen for millennia, and there is no sign that their crushing grip will relent anytime soon. Goblin tribes exist throughout the Inner Sea region, primarily along its coastlines, and as soon as one clan of these violent little maniacs is put down, it seems that two more spring up in its place. The drow rule an empire in the Darklands realm of Sekamina whose scope and reach, were it a surface nation, would stretch to the ends of Avistan itself.
Yet despite their fecundity, the strength of their armies, or the power their individual members wield, these races remain uncommon among most settlements in the Inner Sea region. What holds them back from asserting a more dominant role? Why have they not achieved the same influence and spread as the common races? The answers are complex, and different for each of the seven races discussed here."
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Here's my thing, as someone who is basically pro-goblin...
Do goblins, as presented in Golarion, need some changes to make them fit into the "won't be immediately accosted by the guard every time they enter a settlement" category?
Yes.
And the fine folks at Paizo, who got me to give a toss about flumphs, who changed gnomes into something other than lame mini-dwarves without a clear identity, who made Bugbears into creepy serial killers, who turned ogres from bland mini-Hill Giants into terrifying Hills Have Eyes antagonists, who gave us material where extremely dedicated foes of demonic incursion can ally with the Queen of the Succubi, seem more than capable of cobbling something up over the next year.
Seriously- some sanding down of the nastier bits about goblins has already occurred, and they have time to continue the process. This ongoing flailing screeching is based upon an announcement, some art of a goblin alchemist, and one blog post which, by its very nature, is rough and unfinished (playtest rules haven't even gone live) and pointedly doesn't tell us everything. Did we all think the blog was going to outline a detailed mapping of how Sarenite Paladins have hand-reared generations of goblin orphans to be Good Citizens?
Things in Golarion have changed over time- the Lantern Bearers have become less genocidal, and Drow are no longer a dark secret of elvenkind unknown to anyone else. The Cyphermages have become more heroic in intent. Thassilon has gone from being a legendary and mysterious lost civilization to a known quantity. Part of Cheliax has broken off to become a sovereign nation. The Azlanti went from being effectively extinct to being Gillmen/Munavri/Morlocks. Nocticula, for all of the rumblings around her movement toward Chaotic Neutral, is still the evil Queen of the Succubi. Whore Queens became Queens of the Night in essentially the span of a single publication.
And so on.
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If an ancestry is going to be removed following the playtest, I would strongly prefer Half-Orcs get the axe rather than goblins. Much less baggage with goblins.This. So much this. The decision made for PF1 needs to be rethought. Either ditch the awful definitions on them, or preferably, stop doing "Half" anything. Tieflings and aasimar aren't half-planar. If you want to build somebody with orcish heritage or bloodline, then go for it. Actively calling out half-orcs as the product of violence may have felt necessary as an interim step for PF1. It looks really awful now, and I'm really tired of having players skip over the race because of it.
Oh heck, yeah. I would be absolutely fine with half-orcs getting the axe. "Where do half-orcs come from?" my cousin asks me, as I introduce her to Pathfinder, versus: "Where do goblins come from?" she asks me, and I can say, "PC goblins are a group inspired by adventurers and heroes!"
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It's funny that people are calling for half-orcs to get the axe, because there actually is content of orc tribes that are neutral or even good that already exists in Inner Sea canon. The same cannot be said for goblins.
It's funny that people are calling for half-orcs to get the axe, because there actually is content of orc tribes that are neutral or even good that already exists in Inner Sea canon. The same cannot be said for goblins.
However- Orcs have not been presented, at least to my knowledge, as having any positive characteristics beyond their toughness and martial prowess. Orcs do not produce culture or goods that other nearby people would be interested in.
Goblins are at the least funny to people outside the game, and thus by extension some people inside of it. Goblins produce art and music, it might be *bad* art and music by most people's standards, but there is no accounting for taste.
We can fix half-orcs however, by highlighting more orc groups with positive interests unrelated to fighting or survival.
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Half-orcs are already fixed, the majority of half-orcs in Golarion lore are the product of half-orc parents. Thus the existence of entire half-orc communities.
I get the feeling that you just don't like orcs, which is fine because I don't like goblins (at least the way they're presented in Pathfinder, I like Warcraft goblins a lot).
I would like to see mixed heritage be it's own thing. Like have a subsystem showing how to take two ancestries and mash them. It always seemed silly to me to have half-orcs and half-elves, because it assumed the other half had to be human. What if I want to be half elf and half orc? I think that would be doable, and it wouldn't even take too much space.I like that. I would like to see half-orc and half-elf removed, add in orc as a playable race to go along with goblin and then add a section on mixed races. Probably net neutral as far as space goes and provides a lot more options.
EDIT: It might also be good to break things down with sub sections
Default Races (Elves, Dwarves, Humans, etc.)
Optional: Monstrous Races (Orcs, Goblins)
Optional: Mixed Ancestry
Some flavor text note about how human/elves and human/orcs are a default in Golarion setting.
I actually made a homebrew elf/orc race. http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uxu0?Making-a-new-race-ElfOrc#1 (I don't remember how to make the link clickable and the 'How To Format Your Text' box isn't opening for me.)
I would like to see mixed heritage be it's own thing. Like have a subsystem showing how to take two ancestries and mash them. It always seemed silly to me to have half-orcs and half-elves, because it assumed the other half had to be human. What if I want to be half elf and half orc? I think that would be doable, and it wouldn't even take too much space.I like that. I would like to see half-orc and half-elf removed, add in orc as a playable race to go along with goblin and then add a section on mixed races. Probably net neutral as far as space goes and provides a lot more options.
EDIT: It might also be good to break things down with sub sections
Default Races (Elves, Dwarves, Humans, etc.)
Optional: Monstrous Races (Orcs, Goblins)
Optional: Mixed Ancestry
Some flavor text note about how human/elves and human/orcs are a default in Golarion setting.
where do Half-Lings get a place in this system? :o)