It goes without saying that there's an opinion, a rather large one, that "mundane" classes like Fighter or Barbarian or Rogue just don't get anywhere near as good at end-game levels (17-20) as many believe they should, while Spellcasters get *too* good.
So when you're thinking of mythological characters to represent what a level 20 Fighter *should* look like, I'm curious to know who you'd consider?
I'm also curious to know how deeply you've considered what makes them exceptional in the first place?
Here's what I'm getting at - let's look at some heroes most might point to to represent very high level martials/non-casters:
•Heracles
•Gilgamesh
•Sigurd
•Samson
•Achilles
•Cú Chulainn
etc...
Pretty typical examples you might find when discussing the topic. But under a tighter scrutiny?...
•Heracles: Son of the King of the Gods. Divine blood flows in him.
•Gilgamesh: Another demigod. Not mortal. Pushups won't get you here.
•Sigurd: Dragon shenanigans gave him supernatural abilities. ie he's not mythical without magic.
•Samson: Strength gifted directly from God.
•Achilles: Dipped in magic to be magically magified. (I'm getting lazy, I know...)
•Cú Chulainn: Another demigod...
So...
It seems like "iconic epic warriors" only end up that way either through powerful magical effects bestowed upon them, or by being directly related to the gods.
ie: More than what leveling to 20 can do for you.
Thoughts?
Who might be some inspirations I didn't consider who *don't* have an unfair magical/divine edge but who still carved their name deep enough into mythology to qualify as "epic level inspiration?"
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Batman.
But you are correct. Very few true mundane mortals ever can compete with high level campaigns and come off as epic in any fashion. I'm pretty lazy right now, but there has to be stories where sheer prowess in a mundane mortal at least drew near comparable, right? Didn't one of the gods in pathfinder start as a mortal?
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Conan.
Odysseus.
Boudica.
Really, there's no shortage of mighty warriors succeeding on the strength of their own beefy thews, tactical canniness, and sheer will.
Lancelot
Yip Man
Beowulf
Musashi
All I got is pointing out that Barbarian is actually supernatural class once you get the good rage powers(spell sunder) and doesn't have anywhere near the aging problems of Fighter/Rogue/Cavalier/etc because of it. Thus, making that a pretty bad example.
In the end though this is very similar to another point: In a world where magic is basically everywhere and you'll be fighting undead, demons, dragons, and other mages: Why the hell would you NOT learn magic if you could? Why IC-wise does it make sense for someone to go out of there way to not use at all by training to be a fighter? Sure: NPCs don't have that luxury since they don't fall in the 2-20% of people who can learn magic(depending on sourcebook) but PCs are always in that % and they know it. It's like /damn/ at least become a Barbarian who has anti-magic abilities so casters don't destroy you.
To answer the thread title question: No, they're not mundane. They're extraordinary.
Conan
Beowulf
Red Sonja**
John Carter of Mars
and my personal favorite, Ash from the Evil Dead. (comics and movies)
Most of these heroes have fantastical elements in their stories, but they are themselves not actually blessed in some way. Even Ash (who had a prophecy about him) ruined his own prophecy by forgetting the words. All he had was a chainsaw, a book of chemistry 101 and his car.
**Yes Red Sonja is now an avatar of a god, but her first 12 issues of the reboot did not include that. In fact, she's probably around level 10-12 now according to her own official archetype from the Pathfinder Worldscape comics. I also left out other comic book heroes of "mundane" talents because, unfortunately, most would work better as Vigilantes which I don't consider a mundane class myself.
Just want to reiterate I'm talking about epic level "fighters" here; not "accomplished and probably in the low teens," but rather level 20 or just shy of.
I think Beowulf can probably qualify, what with the shenanigans he gets up to (and I can't remember him having any gifted or latent supernatural qualities, though I admit I'm not well-read on Beowulf...).
Conan, Lancelot, Odysseus, etc. I have a hard time imagining higher than low teens, tbh.
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All I got is pointing out that Barbarian is actually supernatural class once you get the good rage powers(spell sunder) and doesn't have anywhere near the aging problems of Fighter/Rogue/Cavalier/etc because of it. Thus, making that a pretty bad example.
In the end though this is very similar to another point: In a world where magic is basically everywhere and you'll be fighting undead, demons, dragons, and other mages: Why the hell would you NOT learn magic if you could? Why IC-wise does it make sense for someone to go out of there way to not use at all by training to be a fighter? Sure: NPCs don't have that luxury since they don't fall in the 2-20% of people who can learn magic(depending on sourcebook) but PCs are always in that % and they know it. It's like /damn/ at least become a Barbarian who has anti-magic abilities so casters don't destroy you.
Maybe you just aren't any good at it? A PC can arbitrarily decide to dump skill ranks in Perform (singing) because we as players decide where our character's talents lie, but in world people don't have that luxury--if you're hopelessly tone deaf, you're hopelessly tone deaf, and training will only take you so far. Likewise, a PC can decide to be cursed with awesome by dipping Oracle, but in world only the gods and other otherworldly powers decide who to make their pawns.
You use divine blood as a disqualifying factor but it's not really. Hercules didn't have divine powers. He was just really really strong.
He was as strong as he was directly because of his divinity. Without being a demigod, he would be incapable of reaching those wild and outlandish levels of strength, which is my point.
Of course, this has come up enough I already have a go-to example. Pecos Bill. Lassoed a tornado, used a rattlesnake as a whip, shot out all of the stars in the sky except one. No divine blood, no magic powers. Just a legend of the West.
Good call. :)
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Well, I will just say that my definition of end game levels are 10-12, and casters are still pretty broken compared to martials even then.
But I have NEVER run or played in a game that goes past that threshold for whatever IRL reason you can think up. People losing interest, moving away, etc. In fact the majority of my games end at 5th level when things are still pretty equal between classes.
Anything past level 12 in a class design, or feat pre-req is just silly "theorycrafting" to me at this point and I've been running games for a very long time.
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when I think mundane I think Mr. Jefferson from 4 doors down, not 20th level fighter
But sadly, many people do. The idea that martials should be mundane has been D&D's and PF's biggest plague for decades. We don''t want your stupid anime stuff, dammit! And if Aragon or Boromir didn't do it, a Fighter can't be allowed to do it, either!! Otherwise, it wouldn't be realistic!!!
To put it frankly, actually mundane PC classes have no right or reason to exist in the default setting(s). In Golarion and most other settings, magic is safe, reliabely, and widely accessible. A class that refuses to use magical stuff is akin to a real life person that refuses to use any modern high technology (cell phones, computers, etc.). So yeah, Fighter, Rogue & Co. are basically Amish people trying to mix with normal society.
It's ok for characters to follow such a belive, but it should be rare and rather odd, not the default. They are about as fit to join a regular adventuring party as a bow-and-arrow guy is fit to join the marines.
I might just have a different perspective on the whole issue, but I don’t typically see people like Hercules or Aragorn as high level characters. Maybe level 7 to 10 in the end. When I think of high level mundane characters, I typically picture a hero that is obviously out of his element but through whatever mechanism (be it Luck, tenacity, etc), they are able to stand shoulder to shoulder with powerful beings and still make a difference.
When divine blood, or magic, comes into the mix (even if labeled supernatural) normal rules get bent in reality. Normals humans have some kind of limit and it takes something MORE to push them past it.
For example:
A high level fighter isn’t supernaturally powerful. It is his experience and mastery of combat that allows him the flexibility to adapt reflexively to challenges, knowing instinctively how match, counter, or redirect the blows coming at him. He knows himself and his abilities almost perfectly.
A high level rogue knows where to stand to avoid notice, where to strike to take advantages of vulnerabilities, how to twist and dodge to roll with concussive forces, etc, etc. These abilities honed to perfection over the course of their career and ingrained in everything they are.
Rambo.
He's just a guy. And he uses a bow and arrow against Marines... And wins.
Or against an entire Soviet armored column in Rambo III...
From D&D-land, both Drizzt Do'Urden (I know, I know) and Artemis Entreri. And a bunch of others Salvatore cooked up.
Frank Castle/The Punisher.
Daredevil (who went toe to toe with the Hulk in one early Frank Miller story- yes, he lost, but come ON!)
Certain iterations of Captain America (although not most of them- most of them have him well beyond peak human at this point)
From L5R- Hida Kisada (got stabbed in the gut with the Ancestral Sword of the Hantei. Lived for months afterword. Only became a deity posthumously), Mirumoto, Moto Chagatai
Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, Xiahou Dun, Lu Bu, and so forth (whose fictionalized selves in Romance of the Three Kingdoms even had to contend with wizards...)
Fantomas
Sherlock Holmes
Robin Hood
Roland of Gilead
Every character Tony Jaa has ever played.
Most of the "epic" fighters across multiple lores aren't 20th level or even high level. The best I could think of would be Altair but he has eagle powers. Fighters just can't make it to high levels. I think cayden cailean was a high level mortal who didn't use magic but he's magic now.
Rambo.
He's just a guy. And he uses a bow and arrow against Marines... And wins.
I was talking about real life for that comparison.
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Robin Hood, Sherlock Holmes, Lancelot, and Conan are not twentieth level characters. Some of them might be, like, fifth.
A twentieth-level character is a CR20 monster. They are defined as being an equal to a balor or a pit fiend. They are, personally, as great a threat as a demon prince of Hell. Their personal might is relevant on a cosmic scale.
That is not Robin Hood. That is not Sherlock Holmes. That is not Lancelot. Those are much lower level characters, and that's fine. You can have big, huge, epic adventures at low levels, but when you then turn around and act like nonmagical characters should never go past those lower tiers of power, while standing next to magical characters who fundamentally alter reality, it becomes a serious team balance problem.
Even something like Hercules is maybe mid-level.
For what a coherent level 20 Fighter should look like, you're talking about some crazy, over-the-top, Exalted-style anime shenanigans. You're talking like a Roronoa Zoro, here. Like, you miss with your sword and accidentally chop down a tower a hundred feet a way, if you're talking about someone who can coherently stand side-by-side with a being who can casually stop time and summon archangels and waltz between planes and command vampire hordes.
You can have big, huge, epic adventures at low levels, but when you then turn around and act like nonmagical characters should never go past those lower tiers of power, while standing next to magical characters who fundamentally alter reality, it becomes a serious team balance problem.
Is it really a problem though? After all, 4th Edition showed everyone what balanced characters looked like and PF exists because of how many people didn't like 4th Ed. ;)
Also worth noting; it should be fine that non-magical characters are limited, but can overcome those limits with magic (in this case, usually magical items but also permanent spell effects found throughout a career or bestowed by a greater power).
At level 20, isn't everyone magical? The only difference is the casters have the magic baked in, while the non-casters gather the magic from without.
With my personal definition of high level (8th), yes.
The only difference is the casters have the magic baked in, while the non-casters gather the magic from without.
Which is another way of saying they aren't magical, their stuff is. Remove all gear, armor, weapons from the characters, and it becomes obvious who is 'magical' and who is not.
Superman without gear = Superman
Iron Man without gear = Rich alcoholic
Something of a difference there.
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Is it really a problem though? After all, 4th Edition showed everyone what balanced characters looked like and PF exists because of how many people didn't like 4th Ed. ;)
Yes. Yes, it is really a problem. And your position is not remotely valid.
The problem with 4th edition is not that it is not that the classes are reasonably well balanced.
The problem with 4th edition is not that it is a bad game. Of the various iterations of Dungeons & Dragons, it is the one edition that knows exactly what it wants to be, and executes on that vision well. It is a good game that is exactly what it wants to be.
The problem with 4e is that it's not the type of game people wanted it to be. This has absolutely nothing to do with game balance, and using 4e as a means to shut down the topic of game balance is a fundamentally either dishonest or ignorant stance.
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I SMELL EDITION WARS SEEPING INTO A RULES-NEUTRAL THREAD! HUZZAH!
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rich alcoholic with the ability to call all his gear and surplus gear to him at a moments notice.The only difference is the casters have the magic baked in, while the non-casters gather the magic from without.Which is another way of saying they aren't magical, their stuff is. Remove all gear, armor, weapons from the characters, and it becomes obvious who is 'magical' and who is not.
Superman without gear = Superman
Iron Man without gear = Rich alcoholicSomething of a difference there.
... because he has gear that does it. My argument stands.
So, I'm confused...
Are you saying Iron Man doesn't cut it? Cuz... he kinda does.
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Is it really a problem though? After all, 4th Edition showed everyone what balanced characters looked like and PF exists because of how many people didn't like 4th Ed. ;)Yes. Yes, it is really a problem. And your position is not remotely valid.
The problem with 4th edition is not that it is not that the classes are reasonably well balanced.
The problem with 4th edition is not that it is a bad game. Of the various iterations of Dungeons & Dragons, it is the one edition that knows exactly what it wants to be, and executes on that vision well. It is a good game that is exactly what it wants to be.
The problem with 4e is that it's not the type of game people wanted it to be. This has absolutely nothing to do with game balance, and using 4e as a means to shut down the topic of game balance is a fundamentally either dishonest or ignorant stance.
That's a big long angry rant at me that never bothers to answer it's own question. :P
*Why* wasn't it the type of game people wanted to play? It was D&D. The only real difference is that healing wasn't much of an issue and classes were balanced against one another instead of designed to fill different roles/needs (as they are in other editions and PF).tl;dr - When the Fighter and the Wizard have different balance, people complain that the power scale is lopsided.
When the Fighter and the Wizard have the same balance, people complained that nothing felt unique enough and everything felt "the same."
In other words... people will always complain. ;P
•Heracles : demigod and strong enough to rivalize even Atlas who bore the sky on his shoulders not mundane.
•Gilgamesh : High Priest and charismatic enough to draw the favour of Inanna/Ishtar herself, defeated powerful supernatural creatures and visited the abode of the dead and came back... ok, he also fell to sleep at the crucial moment of his quest for immortality... not divine but not quite mmundane anymore either.
•Sigurd : mixed up with gods, forged (or reforged) magic weapons and slew a dragon single handedly... is that still mundane?
•Samson : supernaturally strong with a magical geas on it, not mundane.
•Achilles : demigod, supremely skilled warrior and mostly invulnerable, not mundane at all.
•Cú Chulainn : another demigod, with a berserk fury that went well beyond anything natural and an education that definitely had supernatural elements (Scathach was a sorceress as well as a lady warrior... could be a simpble Barb/ranger, borderline.
if you want real powerful but still truly mundane, there's Conan the Cimmerian, he's at the top of every human ability (I call a character with 18 in every ability a Conan array, after I once had to come to realize that to stat Conan out, he has 18 in every ability, except possibly intelligence) and he does not display any supernatural ability or perform totally superhuman or magical feats...
We got some pretty decent high level Fighter in fantasy/fiction.
A few superheroes of course like Batman and his family, Dardevil, Punisher (this guy is the perfect example of a Fighter in modern setting with power to be honest), Captain America...
We got Conan, Solomon Kane, Van Helsing...
We also got a few from other settings like Warhammer: Gortrek & Felix, Karl Franz, Tyrion... From the FR we got Bruenor, Entreri, Jarlaxe. From Warcraft we got Varian, Garrosh....
All of these people can stand their own against magical foes, terrifying monsters and powerfulle entities. They ranged from around 8th level to 18 I think for the majority of them. They can slay Dragon, Demons and tons of low threat soldiers.
And yes they got magical armor or extraordinary abilities but it is fine. When we speak of the martial caster disparity we got to consider the equipment. Of course a Wizard without a scroll is more dangerous than a Fighter without a Sword. Just as Batman can’t win without préparation against Superman.
But really, Warhammer is I think the best example of what a high level fighter can do. And of what he should do to be honest. He’ll be tanking and dueling huge monsters and nemesis while the Wizard rekt havoc on the foot soldiers and buff/debuff.
A 20th level fighter. What did that statement conjure into your head? I think that's the point of this discussion. But I'm too mechanically inclined with PF lately, obsessed with the numbers, so for me it conjured up a character sheet.
What can a well equipped, well optimized fighter actually DO? Well, if that optimization is towards damage and a single weapon's specialization, it's likely that they can do a TON of damage. It's not sexy; there is no lance of divine light searing from the heavens or a wave of frozen time ebbing from their attacks.
No, a 20th level fighter just grabs their sword in 2 hands, grits their teeth, and unleashes at least 3 devastatingly brutal attacks, if not more, upon their enemy. Yes, this game is a fantasy roleplaying game which means that much of the fighter's power comes from a weapon that is +5 to hit and damage and carries 2 or more riders of extra supernatural power that either add static damage or further enhance the fighter's attacks.
However a fighter at level 20 also has at least 21 Feats and 2 Traits representing a lifetime of physical and mental training. Training to do one thing. A fighter fights. In game terms, that means a fighter deals huge amounts of HP damage, perhaps delivering a minor de-buff on their enemy in the process, while they themselves avoid taking a lot of damage.
They do this by combining every martial advantage they can scrounge. Along with the Feats and Traits there's Armor and Weapon Training; Archetype and Racial Bonuses, Skill unlocks perhaps, and a whole TON of gear they're hauling.
All of that, just so that 3 or more times every 6 seconds they can deliver massive amounts of HP damage to a foe.
The reason a lot of our fantasy media is filled with demigods, Supermen or wizards is because in real life we witness things that do a ton of damage every day. If someone gets behind the wheel of a car or grabs a chainsaw, they can deal a ton of damage IRL. Going back through history, mankind has witnessed and chronicled whole ages of...
This. All of it. Well said.
@Steelguts : uh, van Helsing? just which version of the character are you referring to? certainly not the Abraham van Helsing from Dracula the novel.
@Steelguts : uh, van Helsing? just which version of the character are you referring to? certainly not the Abraham van Helsing from Dracula the novel.
I was referring to the cheesy movie from the 2000 something.
And damn I just found my perfect archetype Fighter, Gatsu from Berserk. Well maybe with a few Barbarians levels depending on the time of the storyline but still a lot of Fighter levels.
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High level (not 20) fighter: Samurai Jack
@Steelguts : uh, van Helsing? just which version of the character are you referring to? certainly not the Abraham van Helsing from Dracula the novel.I was referring to the cheesy movie from the 2000 something.
And damn I just found my perfect archetype Fighter, Gatsu from Berserk. Well maybe with a few Barbarians levels depending on the time of the storyline but still a lot of Fighter levels.
The Viking fighter archetype gets rage powers.
And people that say Ironman/Tony Stark somehow qualifies for this topic... No. Tony Stark originally was in a wheelchair, and the rest of the Avengers called him Jughead. Even in the new stuff, he is just a rich alcoholic with a suit. You can't even compare him to the other rich alcoholic with a suit, because Bruce Wayne is a trained and skilled martial artist even without his suit.
As much as I love Roland of Gilead, he fails to qualify, even in his prime. Gilead falls. His friends die at Jericho Hill. Roland doesn't even kill Martin OR the Spider King. I absolutely love those stories and the characters, but he fails to be able to stand toe to toe with most high level enemies in Pathfinder. He allowed freaking crabs to snip off his trigger finger, that isn't top tier material. Plus, you can hardly consider Roland mundane, given that he possesses and brings three people from their existence to his.
Rambo and Punisher are both good examples of deadly mundane mortals. They are the weapon, their gear is largely inconsequential. But even they probably wouldn't be comparable to a Balor or Pit Fiend, ever.
I lack the anime knowledge required to provide good examples, but we would be talking some epic level anime stuff for someone to be so incredibly awesome with their sword or fists to be comparable to a CR20 monster.
... Warhammer: Gortrek & Felix, Karl Franz, Tyrion... From the FR we got Bruenor, Entreri, Jarlaxe. From Warcraft we got Varian, Garrosh....
All of these people can stand their own against magical foes, terrifying monsters and powerfulle entities. They ranged from around 8th level to 18 I think for the majority of them. They can slay Dragon, Demons and tons of low threat soldiers...
This. All of this. Warhammer Fantasy and Warcraft have perfect examples of non-mundane fighters. Tyrion can fight and hold his own against Greater Daemons, which I'd put on the same level as a Balor or Pitfiend. Gortrek survives getting obsidian shards in his heart, and beats the monster that put them there to a pulp. Varian Wrynn single handedly defeats a massive infernal (which I'd put in the same category as an Iron Collosus). Grom Hellscream defeated a pit lord back in Warcraft 3, and I'd put that on par with a Balor. No magic invovled with these feats besides their gear, simply skill in arms. (I'd speak more on Forgotten Realms, but I really don't know that lore for it.)
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Since Rambo keeps getting brought up, I don't see him anywhere near high level. Killing soldiers with a bow isn't impressive when the foot soldier NPC, described as being tough enough to survive blows that would fell the common man, can be modeled with a CR 1/3 statblock.
That's a big long angry rant at me that never bothers to answer it's own question. :P
*Why* wasn't it the type of game people wanted to play? It was D&D. The only real difference is that healing wasn't much of an issue and classes were balanced against one another instead of designed to fill different roles/needs (as they are in other editions and PF).tl;dr - When the Fighter and the Wizard have different balance, people complain that the power scale is lopsided.
When the Fighter and the Wizard have the same balance, people complained that nothing felt unique enough and everything felt "the same."
In other words... people will always complain. ;P
Your question was, "Is it really a problem though?" My post begins, "Yes. Yes, it is a problem." Question answered. No need to get smarmy.
There are far more differences than being balanced and having readily available healing, and classes feeling "the same" is an independent issue from balance. That sameness in 4e is not because of balance. 13th Age, Dungeon World, and Spheres manage to have much more balanced mechanics without the classes feeling the same. A Warrior and a Commoner feel the same mechanically, but aren't remotely balanced against one another.
Fairness is not sameness. Pointing to a marginally less popular and successful game as a reason to deliberately design games badly is a terrible place to approach games from.
if you want real powerful but still truly mundane, there's Conan the Cimmerian, he's at the top of every human ability (I call a character with 18 in every ability a Conan array, after I once had to come to realize that to stat Conan out, he has 18 in every ability, except possibly intelligence) and he does not display any supernatural ability or perform totally superhuman or magical feats...
I think Conan once had his soul stolen. He the tracked down the wizard, murderized him and took his soul back.
That's pretty cool.
Then there is all the Wuxia tropes, where martial skill = superheroes.
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I feel like I've made my opinion on this known in the past, but I don't have a good enough reason not to do it again: The mundane should be unwelcome past level 5. Past that, if you don't do magic, you are magic.
Ven Vinder, level 7 commoner, frowns on your shenanigans.
Ven Vinder, level 7 commoner, frowns on your shenanigans.
The mindset of statting out every single g@+%#*n person with class levels is one that has to die in a fire. Especially when we have things like this, with absurd levels in nonsense classes like this.
if you want real powerful but still truly mundane, there's Conan the Cimmerian, he's at the top of every human ability (I call a character with 18 in every ability a Conan array, after I once had to come to realize that to stat Conan out, he has 18 in every ability, except possibly intelligence) and he does not display any supernatural ability or perform totally superhuman or magical feats...I think Conan once had his soul stolen. He the tracked down the wizard, murderized him and took his soul back.
That's pretty cool.
Then there is all the Wuxia tropes, where martial skill = superheroes.
No idea where you found that, but that's definitely NOT in one of the original Conan stories by Robert E Howard... then again, there are days when I feel that Conan DID have his soul stolen by all the hacks who wrote s!+# stories and novels about him with the authorisation of Glenn Lord when he was in charge of the Howard estate...
Why do you know so much about Conan? That is some Batman-fan level nerd-rage coming to the surface, right there.