Why do you know so much about Conan? That is some Batman-fan level nerd-rage coming to the surface, right there.
Opinions! On my internet!!! Well I never!
I'm a Batman fan, I have definitely been known to nerd-rage from time to time. Just never met anyone with strong opinions about freaking Conan. I love it.
Why do you know so much about Conan? That is some Batman-fan level nerd-rage coming to the surface, right there.
Howard happens to be my all time favorite writer, and his Conan corpus comprises 21 short stories and novellas, one novel length story, and a handful of fragments and drafts, not hard to know well when you're a compulsive reader. and yeah, when I see what some hacks have done to that intellectual property, by itself a masterpiece of literature, I want to do very bad things to them (including lin carter and sprague de camp except they are already dead)...and don't even talk to me about Red Sonya, the character commonly known to people has zilch to do with the one story heroine Howard created.
so, yeah, nerd rage.
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It's worth mentioning that you can't really find a 20th level wizard in most fiction, either. D&D wizards are bizarrely powerful and can do things that the gods of many settings would cry OP at.
It's worth mentioning that you can't really find a 20th level wizard in most fiction, either. D&D wizards are bizarrely powerful and can do things that the gods of many settings would cry OP at.
And yet, D&D Wizards are allowed to get to that ridiculous level of overpoweredness, while the muggles... aren't.
And here we go.
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This isn't about 20th level wizards. High level mundane mortals, please...
From Warhammer Fantasy: Grimgor Ironhide, Gorbad Ironclaw, Gorfang Rotgut, Deathmaster Snikch, Wulfrik the Wanderer, Gotrek Gurnisson, Tyrion...
From less-branded fiction, Logen Ninefingers. The Bloody-Nine is, despite my loving the stories he's in, a pretty obnoxious example of a fighter who simply cannot be defeated- PF ruleswise, he should MAYBE be a 12th level Barbarian, but in terms of what he faces down and survives killing? FEH.
The Mercenary from The Bartimaeus Trilogy would also apply. He fits the idea of high-level mundane to a T--while he does wear seven league boots, his more defining characteristic is that no matter what you throw at him, he just keeps coming.
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Guts from Berserk is probably a high level fighter who just happens to have magic armour that grants him rage powers. He's cleave/vital strike via cleaving smash with some kind of probably-huge greatsword, so probably ten feats in (as he pretty much needs to be fully specced into these trees to do the things he does) without even accounting for the basics of focus/specialization, or anything else to represent the high degree of skills he's developed (easy to forget he's more extremely violent zen master than big strong guy). Throw in probable deflect arrows (that fancy little cape unfurling arrow block he did isn't easily explained by just dex AC), high enough initiative to consistently outplay dex fighters and rogues, attack bonus high enough to compensate for the oversized weapon...
He needs a lot of feats, is what I'm saying, so even as a straight fighter, he has to be pretty high level, and he's about as mundane as mundane gets if you take off his armour.
Edit: I always imagine his player complaining about being undergeared and the one time his GM tries to give him a magic weapon, it doesn't work with his build the way his giant sword does.
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Glad to see people coming aboard the Warhammer/Warcraft train.
But yes there are really decent warriors outhere who can do amazing feats. They are not mundane at all and could take on a Balor or another CR 20.
I forget Druss and Skillganon from Gemmel’s books.
And I still don’t get why people are so annoyed by the martial casters disparity. I mean when you are looking at the majority of heroic fantasy books outhere, the casters are practicing mysterious rituals and feat of wonders while the martials take head on the opponent. And it’s good. This is a collective game. The main purpose is team play (except a few scenarios with PvP planned by the plot). I never had a Martial in my group complaining about the Wizard or the Bard or the Cleric. Because a Mutagenic Fighter on Enlarge, Bull’s Strength and Bardic Inspiration and Haste is juste a freaking killing machine. And yes since the 6th level Athletics become irrelevant because the Wizard have fly. But just as the fighter carried him on his back and helped him do his climb checks from the first levels, the Wizard make the Fighter fly after 6th.
And as far a strong game mechanics go, I have at least a few builds of martial at 20 who would tear apart a Balor. So I really don’t understand why it is an issue for so many people on the forums
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Some notes/corrections for the OP:
Here's what I'm getting at - let's look at some heroes most might point to to represent very high level martials/non-casters:
•Heracles
•Gilgamesh
•Sigurd
•Samson
•Achilles
•Cú Chulainn
etc...Pretty typical examples you might find when discussing the topic. But under a tighter scrutiny?...
•Heracles: Son of the King of the Gods. Divine blood flows in him.
•Gilgamesh: Another demigod. Not mortal. Pushups won't get you here.
•Sigurd: Dragon shenanigans gave him supernatural abilities. ie he's not mythical without magic.
•Samson: Strength gifted directly from God.
•Achilles: Dipped in magic to be magically magified. (I'm getting lazy, I know...)
•Cú Chulainn: Another demigod...So...
It seems like "iconic epic warriors" only end up that way either through powerful magical effects bestowed upon them, or by being directly related to the gods.
ie: More than what leveling to 20 can do for you.
Correction: It has been some time since I read Volsunga Saga, but I don't recall Sigurd's prowess coming from the dragon shenanigans. Dragon shenanigans occurred, but the result was wisdom*, not power.
*At least nominally. YMMV on how wise he acts afterwards.
Correction/Note: Iliad Achilles, the one most people think of when they think of Achilles slaughtering armies and choking rivers with corpses, wasn't invulnerable by dint of magic river (in fact his need for armor in order to fight Hector is a plot point). Some lesser-known variants of the story do include dipping in magic, as you say, though. On the other hand, as the son of a minor godling, he was a demigod.
Note: Heracles may have been a demigod, but not all demigods were Heracles. Chumps like Athis suggest that divine parentage may have been involved in achieving legendary might, but was not by itself sufficient.
Note: You might want to also consider whether evaluating arcane magical classes by the same criteria has any implications for your point. For example, how many legendary examples of wizards and sorcerers enjoyed divine favor/power/heritage or got power from some external source such as a magic artifact?
For example, if pushups alone won't make you Gilgamesh, spellbooks alone won't make you Merlin (cambion) or Gandalf (yet another demigod).
The Saint of Killers from Preacher was a guy from the wild west who took revenge on the bandits that killed his wife and was sent to hell for the sin of murder. His hate and anger was so strong that hell began to freeze over, no matter what the Devil tried. So the Devil and the Angel of Death reforged the angel's sword into a pair of revolvers and sent the Saint back to earth.
The Saint later takes a nuke to the face and kills tanks with his revolvers.
The Saint of Killers from Preacher was a guy from the wild west who took revenge on the bandits that killed his wife and was sent to hell for the sin of murder. His hate and anger was so strong that hell began to freeze over, no matter what the Devil tried. So the Devil and the Angel of Death reforged the angel's sword into a pair of revolvers and sent the Saint back to earth.
The Saint later takes a nuke to the face and kills tanks with his revolvers.
I would argue that the ol' Saint is about as far from "mundane" as you can get...
Since he effectively became the new Angel of Death because the old one had gotten bored of his job.
The Saint of Killers from Preacher was a guy from the wild west who took revenge on the bandits that killed his wife and was sent to hell for the sin of murder. His hate and anger was so strong that hell began to freeze over, no matter what the Devil tried. So the Devil and the Angel of Death reforged the angel's sword into a pair of revolvers and sent the Saint back to earth.
The Saint later takes a nuke to the face and kills tanks with his revolvers.
I would argue that the ol' Saint is about as far from "mundane" as you can get...
Since he effectively became the new Angel of Death because the old one had gotten bored of his job.
Well there was the whole part of him being too metal for Hell. Its not like he was a guy that just found some magic revolvers. Plus, the revolvers don't make him immune to damage. That's just him being bad-ass.
Note: You might want to also consider whether evaluating arcane magical classes by the same criteria has any implications for your point. For example, how many legendary examples of wizards and sorcerers enjoyed divine favor/power/heritage or got power from some external source such as a magic artifact?
For example, if pushups alone won't make you Gilgamesh, spellbooks alone won't make you Merlin (cambion) or Gandalf (yet another demigod).
I think that would make for another interesting conversation, but for reasons entirely opposite to this thread. ;)
For instance: Gandalf is supposed to be this divine super power but on screen all he does is cast some cantrips, some low level druid spells, and dual-wield a bastard sword and staff (I use the movies as reference because in the books he does even less!)tl;dr - As mentioned earlier, fiction/media/etc really doesn't have any examples of high-level-by-the-mechanics spellcasters; their importance is inflated WELL beyond their shown abilities. :P
(Edit- Fiction with D&D specifically in mind should obviously be excluded. Forgotten Realms novels and the like obviously showcase powerful spellcasters, but those stories are based on the game, rather than vice versa.)
Well there was the whole part of him being too metal for Hell. Its not like he was a guy that just found some magic revolvers. Plus, the revolvers don't make him immune to damage. That's just him being bad-ass.I would argue that the ol' Saint is about as far from "mundane" as you can get...
Since he effectively became the new Angel of Death because the old one had gotten bored of his job.
His hatred froze Hell, sure, but that's not exactly mundane... and his form was repaired by the Devil. That and his role as the Angel of Death absolutely make him immune to damage...
And people that say Ironman/Tony Stark somehow qualifies for this topic... No. Tony Stark originally was in a wheelchair, and the rest of the Avengers called him Jughead. Even in the new stuff, he is just a rich alcoholic with a suit. You can't even compare him to the other rich alcoholic with a suit, because Bruce Wayne is a trained and skilled martial artist even without his suit.
Bit of a tangent here, but, hey.
This is one of the problems with such characters, be they ancient myths or modern comics. There are so many variations that can make statements like this either spot on or absolutely wrong. In this case, if we're talking MCU Tony, yeah, without his gear or time to make something to help him, he really is just a guy. But off hand I can think of an instance of comic book Tony fighting off 5 skrulls in a Skrull prison while naked. His combat prowess in that case is attributed to his training with Cap.
To be clear, I'm not expecting everyone to know all these different variations, nor to feel the need to clarify which one they are referring to every time, it just makes these characters hard to pin down as examples for such discussions.
Sigurd bathing in dragon's blood made him invulnerable, save for the part on his shoulder where a leaf had stuck to him.
Correction: It has been some time since I read Volsunga Saga, but I don't recall Sigurd's prowess coming from the dragon shenanigans. Dragon shenanigans occurred, but the result was wisdom*, not power.*At least nominally. YMMV on how wise he acts afterwards.
After a little digging, it looks like this comes from Siegfried in one of the continental German variants? Sigurd/Volsunga Saga was who I was thinking of (and there's no invulnerability or weak spot there, he gets murdered while asleep in bed), but fair enough...
Couple more:
Roland, Alexander the Great (romance version, not historical version).
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Brock Samson is epic, indeed. Go Team Venture.
Rage Power: Left Eye Twitch
Benefit: Gains +1,000,000 competence bonus on killing henchmen.
Special: Brock Samson can use this as a free action.
While I haven't seen too much of Brock Samson, I hope he does more than just kill endless amounts of henchmen, because that doesn't qualify you as epic or even 20th level :p
Oh yes. He does.
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Whenever I think of 20th level Rogue I always think of Autolycus from Xena / Hercules - The Prince of Thieves. Here we have a normal human that can swipe things from anyone, at any time, as easy as taking candy from a baby. Yes, Xena could go swipe for swipe with him because she was basically the star of the show and a bit of a rogue herself, but Hercules never managed the same. Nor did anyone else on the show(s). Palm a gem the size of his fist? No problem. Dance on clothes lines? No problem. Pick a lock without even looking? No problem. All without any magic or Godlike abilities.
A 20th level fighter can break the rules of reality in 20+ ways (Feats). he can conceivably hit everyone within 20' (maybe 25') every round, four times a round, forever. You get a some fireballs every day? I AM A FIREBALL.
So to sum it up: Bruce Campbell plays a 20th level Rogue in Xena and Hercules. He plays a high level fighter in Evil Dead (and Ash vs. Evil). "I said the words! I said the words!"
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For instance: Gandalf is supposed to be this divine super power but on screen all he does is cast some cantrips, some low level druid spells, and dual-wield a bastard sword and staff (I use the movies as reference because in the books he does even less!)
Don't forget, the b1tch also saved his "summon monster I/enlarge other combo" for when they were leaving Mordor, making it a 3 month trip in instead of a 30 minute flight. That @sshat Gandalf. Hell, he probably could have cast it more than once even (in and out) if he needed to. What a jerk.
Glad to see people coming aboard the Warhammer/Warcraft train.
But yes there are really decent warriors outhere who can do amazing feats. They are not mundane at all and could take on a Balor or another CR 20.
I forget Druss and Skillganon from Gemmel’s books.And I still don’t get why people are so annoyed by the martial casters disparity. I mean when you are looking at the majority of heroic fantasy books outhere, the casters are practicing mysterious rituals and feat of wonders while the martials take head on the opponent.
That's usually because in many instances(At least IMO) there are somewhat clear boundaries as to what a magic user would and would not be able to do. Additionally in other cases the use of magical abilities carry with them varying levels of extreme penalties if they have softer or non existent power ceilings.
Many other worlds enforce specialization rules or outright forbid more godlike uses of power(Time travel, plane creation ect...). Pathfinder casters for the most part can dip their fingers into whatever they can get with little in the way of restriction.
The second addendum is that of consequence. Warhammer is actually a perfect example of this in regards to an unspecified power ceiling. Anytime a magic user in Fantasy or a Psyker in 40K wants to use their abilities they must either cast themselves or be receptive towards the influence of the warp.
High level users in either universe have virtually no limit as to what they can do, only what they can imagine. However everytime they open themselves up they risk serious harm to themselves, others, death or even Daemonic possession. PF Magi by comparison have little to lose when it comes to lack of concentration or a small blip. Even the optional Wild Magic Rules in unchained, bar maybe a handful are more of a nuisance than an actual consequence.
I've never really had a problem with the powers associated with Casters. Consequences of magic are a far bigger peeve in that respect to me. But in the case of this thread the other issue is assuming that "Mundane" in Golarion should be equivalent to "Mundane" in reality. There are plenty of Races in Pathfinder. There is no reason that say an Aasimar, Tiefling or Oread Fighter for example should be as Mundane as a straight up Human fighter considering the former 3 have supernatural origins and can likely call upon those backgrounds to do things others wouldn't be able to, like some of the more mythic heroes mentioned in the thread. Though by the same token I also happen to believe that it isn't too much a stretch to assume that someone capable of taking on a Balor is also far from Mundane or Average and is likely to possess or have gained some superhuman abilities regardless of Race to be able to achieve such a feat to begin with.
I don't think killing a Balor is the metric of comparison here, it's being comparable to what a Balor can do. If a level 20 fighter, human 22+ feats blah blah blah, is a CR 20 character, comparing him or her to other CR 20 monsters in the game, he still can't do what a lot of things at that level can do. Yes, damage is probably on point. Might even be relatively mobile. Probably pretty hard to hit, too. But he still doesn't have telekinesis or explode when he dies, the fighter can't do a lot, and I mean A LOT, of what most other CR 20 monsters can do.
Weapon and Armor Training, or the Advanced thereof, only get him so far, and none of the tricks available to the fighter in general offer him access to anything beyond still being mundane.
This isn't about fighters in general, though. I just wanted to make clear the Balor example that keeps appearing.
Killing the Balor is easy enough, being on par with it as a mundane is next to impossible, though.
Using magic items doesn't change whether or not you qualify as mundane...
If a level 20 fighter finds a helpless sleeping Balor and coup de graces it... It still explodes.
If a Balor finds a level 20 fighter and coup de graces him, the mundane fighter is simply dead.
And that doesn't really change for any of the playable races in this game. Tiefling, Dwarf, Orc, or Elf despite having access to petty abilities or minor magics, you are mundane all the way to the end, unless your class grants you exceptional powers graduating you from the mundane into the extraordinary.
...To put it frankly, actually mundane PC classes have no right or reason to exist in the default setting(s). In Golarion and most other settings, magic is safe, reliabely, and widely accessible. A class that refuses to use magical stuff is akin to a real life person that refuses to use any modern high technology (cell phones, computers, etc.). So yeah, Fighter, Rogue & Co. are basically Amish people trying to mix with normal society.
It's ok for characters to follow such a belive, but it should be rare and rather odd, not the default. They are about as fit to join a regular adventuring party as a bow-and-arrow guy is fit to join the marines.
Who says the class refuses to use magic? My high level fighter has magic weapons, magic armor, a magic hat, magic cape, magic boots, magic backpack, magic belt, potions, several magic nicknacks off the top of my head. Most of the other high level martials I have met have similar. Just because I don't have the technical knowhow to cast a spell or enchant an item doesn't mean I can't use them or benefit from them.
your analogy is false. Only a weirdo would refuse to use modern high technology if they can get hold of it, but most people would not be able to fix it or make it; only a specialist could do that. Similarly "Mundane" classes use magic even though they don't know how to cast it or create it.
your analogy is false. Only a weirdo would refuse to use modern high technology if they can get hold of it, but most people would not be able to fix it or make it; only a specialist could do that.
Er, no. How many people know how to properly fix or make a smartphone? A few percent at most. Meanwhile, out of the 40 base classes in Pathfinder, 30, i.e. three quarters, come with fixed magical abilities, if you count optional magical abilities (from Rage Powers for instance), the number raises to 90% (not even counting archetypes)*. Not exactly the same number, is it? Fixing/building hi tec is more like magic item creation.
Also, there are plenty of people, mainly elderly, that are rather reluctant to learn to use new technologies.Needing spells from the Wizard to fly or see invisible enemies is rather like not having a smartphone so you have to ask your friends when the next tram is going to leave. Sure, you could throw money at the problem, but that's not only costly but also makes you dependant on the availability (finding a cab/finding the right magic items for sale).
*) I count all spells, spell-like, and supernatural abilities, because it's not just spells. To pick up the above example, Shifter, unMonk, Barbarian, Kineticist, and even Fighter are able to fly with certain non-spell class features.