Not sure about this one, as they are two size increasing effects. Was hoping I could get some opinions. If I was wild shaped into a medium sized creature and went into a rage would I get the benefit of this bloodline rage power?
Demonic Bulk (Su)
At 4th level, when entering a bloodrage, you can choose to grow one size category larger than your base size (as enlarge person) even if you aren’t humanoid.
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You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Technically this does not apply as neither wildshape nor the bloodline power are spells, but I wouldn't bet on any GM seeing it that way.
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Enlarge person itself has some rule text about it:
Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.Technically this does not apply as neither wildshape nor the bloodline power are spells, but I wouldn't bet on any GM seeing it that way.
You are right, so they would stack RAW. Thanks Fuzzy Wuzzy.
They shouldn't stack because their effects follow all of the rules of the listed spell(s). Enlarge Person says it doesn't stack with other effects that increase size, and Demonic Bulk functions as Enlarge Person, so Demonic Bulk won't stack with other effects that increase size.
As SheepishEidolon mentioned, it doesn't matter whether the effect is a spell. Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.
Edit: citation fail, sorry!
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:( damn you SheepishEidolon.
As SheepishEidolon mentioned, it doesn't matter whether the effect is a spell. Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.
Edit: citation fail, sorry!
This FAQ might have been the citation you were thinking of.
As per the rules on size changes, size changes do not stack, so if you have multiple size changing effects (for instance an effect that increases your size by one step and another that increases your size by two steps), only the largest applies. The same is true of effective size increases (which includes “deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are,” “your damage die type increases by one step,” and similar language). They don’t stack with each other, just take the biggest one. However, you can have one of each and they do work together (for example, enlarge person increasing your actual size to Large and a bashing shield increasing your shield’s effective size by two steps, for a total of 2d6 damage).
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You are right, so they would stack RAW. Thanks Fuzzy Wuzzy.You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.Technically this does not apply as neither wildshape nor the bloodline power are spells, but I wouldn't bet on any GM seeing it that way.
But it doesn’t matter if it’s a spell or not, just that it’s a polymorph effect. Remember the whole spell section is written for “spells and magical effects” then immediately shortened to spells.
Indeed Fuzzy Wuzzy my friend. However, the rules continue to say "size" in this case its not changing my size as both forms are still medium so there is no size stacking purely RAW.
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1) we have lots of FAQ on stacking that handle non stacking of spells and magical effects, so the spell stacking rules don’t require spells.
2) wild shape is a polymorph, enlarge doesn’t stack with polymorph whether or not it changes size.
3) yes, but if you have a polymorph it’s ignored.
1. neither ability is a spell so the entire spells not stacking with one and other is mute
2. the wild shape is not increasing the size so would stack with size increasing things(being able to have one size increasing effect at a time)
3.the enlarge effect from the bloodline happens no matter what, you enter a rage you get bigger weather you like it or not only way to get rid of that effect is to trade out the power for something else
1. This is a strawman. Nobody said that the ability is a spell, we said that it references the rules of a spell to determine how the ability functions. The rules of the spell outright state that it won't stack with other effects that increase size, whether it's from another spell (Giant Form), a supernatural ability (Wild Shape), or even an extraordinary ability (some Shapechange monster ability.
2. Yes, it does increase size. If it's an effect that doesn't say your new size is now your original size for all intents and purposes, and/or stacks with other size increasing effects as a result, you're left with an ability that follows the general rules with no specifics to override the general rules, which are that they won't stack with other size increasing effects based on the FAQ previously listed.
3. The Bloodline effect might work in, say, a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, which blocks all Spells, SLAs, and Spell-like effects from items. But if you're in an Anti-Magic Field, that effect won't take place because it's a Supernatural Ability that refers to a spell to determine its effects and restrictions, if any. Which in this case, it has them.
You're still missing the big picture here.
Demonic Bulk functions as Enlarge Person.
Enlarge Person doesn't stack with other effects that increase (or decrease) size.
Wild Shape, unless sticking to the same size (for example, switching to a 5x10 Lion piece isn't sticking to the same size, even though it's still a Medium creature), is an effect that increases (or possibly even decreases) size.
Therefore, Demonic Bulk doesn't stack with other effects that increase or decrease size.
It's a very traditional "A=B=C, so A=C" situation. I didn't need to mention spells or polymorphing or anything of that nature. All I referenced was one ability functioning like another ability that has a specific restriction that doesn't work with other abilities that adjust a certain statistic, meaning anything that doesn't work with the latter ability doesn't work with the former ability. It really is that simple.
the polymorph rules only apply to when your actually casting the spell
This is not how Pathfinder rules work. When something works as a spell, it works as the spell. "This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here." Size change interactions are not in the noted exceptions, and thus wild shape works as the spell in that regard.
the wild shape isn't changing size, so there is no stacking issue with the enlarge effect, the polymorph rules only apply to when your actually casting the spell so if they use the spell slot to cast the transform into x spell then the rule applies but they aren't so it does not
At best, they would partially stack. Size bonuses to scores wouldn't stack with themselves, size penalties to scores (if any) would stack with themselves, and the creature would only be one size bigger than its normal size; which again, wouldn't actually apply if the spaces they occupy change as a result of their shape.
Even so, Polymorph Rules include more than just spells. Re-read this part here:
If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell.
Note the bolded part, including an example ability that isn't a spell as something that won't stack with other identical effects. The factor that they call out Wild Shape as an exception to Polymorph Spells not stacking should be a strong indicator that the Polymorph rules apply to all Polymorph effects, and not just spells.
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fixed that for youPlease stop referring the size changing FAQ, as it isn’t relevant.
Enlarge Person spells do not stack with a Polymorph spells.
All I can say is you are factually wrong with that statement, and there are lots of FAQ and developer comments to confirm you are wrong.
One example using a class ability, not a spell.
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I don't know what you are saying then.
Spells don't matter, so it doesn't require a spell. Wild Shape is a Supernatural ability and it won't stack with Enlarge whether it is a spell or supernatural.
You have seemed to be to be continually saying because the Bulk effect is supernatural Enlarge Person it somehow doesn't count for spells.
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Alright, I'll take a stab at this.
Lady-J, the bloodline power says:
Demonic Bulk (Su)
At 4th level, when entering a bloodrage, you can choose to grow one size category larger than your base size (as enlarge person) even if you aren’t humanoid.
So we know it functions as enlarge person in every way except obviously it's not a spell, it's an SU ability as marked in the power description.
Now let's look at the text of enlarge person:
This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8. This increase changes the creature’s size category to the next larger one. The target gains a +2 size bonus to Strength, a -2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum of 1), and a -1 penalty on attack rolls and AC due to its increased size.
A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet. This spell does not change the target’s speed.
If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it–the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size.
All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee weapons affected by this spell deal more damage (see Table: Medium/Large Weapon Damage). Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage. Magical properties of enlarged items are not increased by this spell.
Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.
Enlarge person counters and dispels reduce person .
Enlarge person can be made permanent with a permanency spell.
Alright, so now we know that multiple magical effects that increase size don't stack. Which you seem to be saying doesn't matter because we're using abilities that aren't actually spells.
So now let's look at the description of SU abilities:
Supernatural Abilities (Su)
Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells.
And what type of ability is wild shape again?
Wild Shape (Su)
Oh it's another SU ability. Which are magical. So we have 2 magical abilities that change size, one of which states it doesn't stack with anything else that increases size.
So no, you can't use Wild Shape and Demonic Bulk together to increase your size twice.
But hey, maybe this all means nothing and you're right anyways Lady-J. James did once tell me that "Considering language is never static, we shouldn't be so certain how things work." ;)
Lady J is saying wild shape isn't changing the size of the creature in this specific example. Its certainly a polymorph effect, but no size is being changed. Demonic bulk is a size effect for sure. Certainly RAI I would agree these two won't stack. But purely RAW a word or two may be missing.
i could almost see your logic that it may work because you didnt change size, except you did receive a size adjustment to a stat, so are under a size change. rules are no 2 stacks.
True
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The answer lies in the last sentence below
Paizo PRD: Magic Chapter: Transmutation School: Polymorph Sub-School:
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell.
In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
that's besides the point as there are no spells being used hereThe answer lies in the last sentence below
Paizo PRD: Magic Chapter: Transmutation School: Polymorph Sub-School:
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell.
In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Nope. Raven's got us. Wild Shape functions as Beast Shape Spells "Except as follows" in the Druid Class Description. Does it say there that Druids can benefit from Spells that enhance their Size? If it doesn't say it there, then we don't get it.
I don't like the fact that Druids have a Size limit on Animals they can turn into. I feel like a a sufficiently high level Druid should be able to turn into a Colossal Animal. As it is, a Druid can't even Wildshape into a T-Rex. And honestly, what Druid doesn't want to?
Lmao
I don't like the fact that Druids have a Size limit on Animals they can turn into. I feel like a a sufficiently high level Druid should be able to turn into a Colossal Animal. As it is, a Druid can't even Wildshape into a T-Rex. And honestly, what Druid doesn't want to?
I KNOW RIGHT???