Wildshape and Bloodline power


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James Risner wrote:

We have meandered back to Saturday afternoon.

Which is to say that a medium human wild shaped into a medium Wolf (a polymorph effect) gains no benefit from Demomic Bulk as it is ignored while under the effects of a polymorph spell or magical effect.

So i actually have a weird tangent that somewhat goes along this tune. Say I am a person and I polymorph into a fish, fish me now casts *blub blub blub* or human speak for enlarge person. Now is where I get confused on how spells work in order of operations. Is it spell goes off, spell checks x to see if man or fish, spell sees fish, spell has no effect and spell ends. Or, is it spell goes off, spell checks x to see if man or fish, spell sees fish, spell has no effect, spell continues. round 2 continue operations above, spell has no effect. Round three fish spell ends, operations check X, man is now man, not fish, enlarge is not in effect.

As an added thought, whether I am correct in this assumption or not, mage armor, when applied to a person in full plate, give no effect, but if they suddenly had their armor removed mage armor would still be on and thus are now receiving the effect?


Backpack wrote:
So i actually have a weird tangent that somewhat goes along this tune. Say I am a person and I polymorph into a fish, fish me now casts *blub blub blub* or human speak for enlarge person. Now is where I get confused on how spells work in order of operations. Is it spell goes off, spell checks x to see if man or fish, spell sees fish, spell has no effect and spell ends.

Wild Shape doesn't change your Base Type. When a Human Druid Wildshapes into a fish, she's still a Human and a Person vis a vis Enlarge person or Charm Person.

Backpack wrote:
As an added thought, whether I am correct in this assumption or not, mage armor, when applied to a person in full plate, give no effect, but if they suddenly had their armor removed mage armor would still be on and thus are now receiving the effect?

I believe that if you cast Mage Armor on yourself when you are in Human Form, it will still be in effect when you Polymorph. But it is usually a trivial matter to just wait until you Wild Shape into a Fish to cast your Mage Armor. Ask your GM as you sit at the table. If he wants to make you jump through that hoop, roll your eyes and say, "Fine, I'll Wild Shape first, and then cast Mage Armor."

I was thinking the way to go would be to dip a level in Magus or something and carry a Wand of Swift Girding and have real suits of Armor--Barding--made for myself for when I am in any of my favorite Animal Shapes.


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Lady-J wrote:
James Risner wrote:
It doesn’t Matter whether or not it’s a spell.
but it does, as only the effects in spell form prevent things from working together

Since the SLAs in question "function as" the Spells in Question according to the rules, we have to assume they also function with the same limitations unless you can point to rules especially in the description of the ability, that provide the exception in question to them.

You have been shown that Demonic Bulk functions as Enlarge Person. Show us that the rules say that Demonic Bulk does not function as Enlarge Person in the ways that you say.

You have been shown that Wild Shape functions as Beast Shape, a Polymorph Spell. Show us that and Wild Shape do not function as a Polymorph Spell in the way you say. I am really pessimistic about this one:

Wild Shape wrote:
This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here.

Well, where is it "noted here"?!


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
James Risner wrote:
It doesn’t Matter whether or not it’s a spell.
but it does, as only the effects in spell form prevent things from working together

Since the SLAs in question "function as" the Spells in Question according to the rules, we have to assume they also function with the same limitations unless you can point to rules especially in the description of the ability, that provide the exception in question to them.

You have been shown that Demonic Bulk functions as Enlarge Person. Show us that the rules say that Demonic Bulk does not function as Enlarge Person in the ways that you say.

You have been shown that Wild Shape functions as Beast Shape, a Polymorph Spell. Show us that and Wild Shape do not function as a Polymorph Spell in the way you say. I am really pessimistic about this one:

Wild Shape wrote:
This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here.
Well, where is it "noted here"?!

its a supernatural ability not a spell like ability, all be it a supernatural ability that function like spells but they themselves are not spells there for they are not limited by the same restraints spells are in this regard

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Lady-J wrote:
James Risner wrote:
It doesn’t Matter whether or not it’s a spell.
but it does, as only the effects in spell form prevent things from working together

The rules disagree with you, the developers disagree with you, and I don’t understand why you keep repeating it. Can you articulate why you feel so strongly everyone else is wrong?

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Back pack,

Full dragonscale plate human Druid has mage armor. Mage armor doesn’t stack with full plate but is providing incorporeal help. Druid turns to medium fish, gets enlarge person. Enlarge has “no effect” but is still an active spell. The other active spell mage armor is giving 4 AC because the full plate no longer is active. Druid shapes back to human and is enlarged from active enlarge person.

That’s how I read “no effect”. Ask your GM how they read “no effect”.


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Backpack wrote:


Say I am a person and I polymorph into a fish, fish me now casts *blub blub blub* or human speak for enlarge person. Now is where I get confused on how spells work in order of operations. Is it spell goes off, spell checks x to see if man or fish, spell sees fish, spell has no effect and spell ends. Or, is it spell goes off, spell checks x to see if man or fish, spell sees fish, spell has no effect, spell continues. round 2 continue operations above, spell has no effect. Round three fish spell ends, operations check X, man is now man, not fish, enlarge is not in effect.[/spoiler]

Spell checks to see if you are a legal target

Since polymorph does not normally change your type, you are a legal target

Spell goes on you

spell does nothing. While size enhancers are not polymorph effects , you can't have have a polymorph effect with a size altering effect.

enlarge person bides its time and waits...


James Risner wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
James Risner wrote:
It doesn’t Matter whether or not it’s a spell.
but it does, as only the effects in spell form prevent things from working together
The rules disagree with you, the developers disagree with you, and I don’t understand why you keep repeating it. Can you articulate why you feel so strongly everyone else is wrong?

the rules say spell, and spell can not interact, a supernatural ability even tho it may be emulating a spell is not a spell


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

The answer lies in the last sentence below

Paizo PRD: Magic Chapter: Transmutation School: Polymorph Sub-School:

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell.

In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

that's besides the point as there are no spells being used here

Nope. Raven's got us. Wild Shape functions as Beast Shape Spells "Except as follows" in the Druid Class Description. Does it say there that Druids can benefit from Spells that enhance their Size? If it doesn't say it there, then we don't get it.

I don't like the fact that Druids have a Size limit on Animals they can turn into. I feel like a a sufficiently high level Druid should be able to turn into a Colossal Animal. As it is, a Druid can't even Wildshape into a T-Rex. And honestly, what Druid doesn't want to?

This. Is just too funny. I have bookmarked this thread simply cuz of this link.

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Lady-J wrote:
the rules say spell, and spell can not interact, a supernatural ability even tho it may be emulating a spell is not a spell

Only be deliberately choosing to misread the rules.

The rules say “Spells and magical effects” then immediately shortens that to spells.

That would be abusing the need to drop “and magical effects” for word count reasons as a out to your logic. They had to shorten otherwise it would add 210 words to that section by repeating “and magical effects” 70 times.


James Risner wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
the rules say spell, and spell can not interact, a supernatural ability even tho it may be emulating a spell is not a spell

Only be deliberately choosing to misread the rules.

The rules say “Spells and magical effects” then immediately shortens that to spells.

That would be abusing the need to drop “and magical effects” for word count reasons as a out to your logic. They had to shorten otherwise it would add 210 words to that section by repeating “and magical effects” 70 times.

the rules do not say and other magical effects the rules say spells, adding words to the rules is misconstruing them and making up false rules, the rules are clear as written it is only spells

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Lady-J wrote:
the rules do not say and other magical effects the rules say spells, adding words to the rules is misconstruing them and making up false rules, the rules are clear as written it is only spells

There are a lot of rules. No one can know them all.

Combining Magical Effects Core p208 wrote:
Spells or magical effects usually work as described, no matter how many other spells or magical effects happen to be operating in the same area or on the same recipient. Except in special cases, a spell does not affect the way another spell operates. Whenever a spell has a specific effect on other spells, the spell description explains that effect. Several other general rules apply when spells or magical effects operate in the same place:

Notice how they called the section "Combining Magic Effects" and used "spells or magical effects" three times. They go on to use colon before a number of rules.

In each of those rules, they only use the word spells. The reader is to understand that they are now shorthanding spells for "spells or magical effects".


James Risner wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
the rules do not say and other magical effects the rules say spells, adding words to the rules is misconstruing them and making up false rules, the rules are clear as written it is only spells

There are a lot of rules. No one can know them all.

Combining Magical Effects Core p208 wrote:
Spells or magical effects usually work as described, no matter how many other spells or magical effects happen to be operating in the same area or on the same recipient. Except in special cases, a spell does not affect the way another spell operates. Whenever a spell has a specific effect on other spells, the spell description explains that effect. Several other general rules apply when spells or magical effects operate in the same place:

Notice how they called the section "Combining Magic Effects" and used "spells or magical effects" three times. They go on to use colon before a number of rules.

In each of those rules, they only use the word spells. The reader is to understand that they are now shorthanding spells for "spells or magical effects".

yes and that is from a completely different area of text un related to the rules currently being discussed, such as types of bonuses same effect but different strengths, same effect with different result, effects that make another irreverent multiple mind control effects, spells with opposite effects and spells with an instantaneous effect none of which pertain to the current subject nor do they give any notion of the wording used with in that section being related to any wording or lac there of in any other section of text

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I seriously have no idea what your point is. I can't pin it down.

We have those stacking rules (which directly relates to Enlarge Person stacking with Wild Shape).
We have FAQ saying they don't stack.
We have overwhelming evidence all ofter this subject and every time we point out why it doesn't work as you say, it seems like you are pointing to something else.

Can you show me the rules you believe prove your side? Because I can't find them. All I can find is rules and FAQ that disprove your position.


James Risner wrote:

I seriously have no idea what your point is. I can't pin it down.

We have those stacking rules (which directly relates to Enlarge Person stacking with Wild Shape).
We have FAQ saying they don't stack.
We have overwhelming evidence all ofter this subject and every time we point out why it doesn't work as you say, it seems like you are pointing to something else.

Can you show me the rules you believe prove your side? Because I can't find them. All I can find is rules and FAQ that disprove your position.

you have presented 0 evidence to prove they don't stack, i also cannot find this faq you keep saying is there only faq i see is about size increases, effective size increases and how they stack with one and other while the raw rules currently site only spells cannot interact with one and other wildshape is not a spell, and neither is demonic bulk they function as the spells yes but they themselves are not spells thus they are un effected by the cant use enlarge person spell with a polymorph spell

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  • Polymorph wrote:
    You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell.

    Rules showing that polymorph rules are relevant for spells or supernatural abilities such as Wild Shape.

  • Some abilities that work as a spell tell you what their DC is, like the bard’s fascinate performance. An ability that doesn’t tell you anything about its DC has a DC of 10 + the spell level + the key spellcasting ability score of the class that granted it (or Charisma otherwise).

    Some rules on how to get spell details for thing that are not spells.

  • How does damage work if I have various effects that change my actual size.

    The rules mix spells and non-spell effects together, as they all work the same in the rules.

  • If you have two spells with effects other than bonuses.

    This FAQ originated from a thread discussing “This effect does not stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon” and some people saying “Threat range is not the same as a critical multiplier”. The FAQ makes it clear that despite critical multiplier not being a threat range modification, they effects don’t stack. This is similar in concept to the “it isn’t a spell” position in regards to combining magical effects.

  • Spells or magical effects usually work as described …

    Stacking Effects: Spells that provide …
    Same [/b]Effect[/b] More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells …
    Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell …
    One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, one spell …
    Multiple Mental Control Effects: Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as spells …
    Notice how “effects” and “magical effects” are used interchangeably with spells. The various rules on combining multiple spells or magical effects often use spells, but they deliberately don’t mean to restrict that to just spells.

In closing, every single time a rule is interpreted too closely by a group that interpretation has resulted in an FAQ that invalidates that interpretation. This is an example of interpreting too closely, clearly the rules don't care that Wild Shape is Supernatural and Demonic Bulk is supernatural. They won't stack with each other due to the various "spell stacking" rules.


James Risner wrote:
  • Polymorph wrote:
    You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell.

    Rules showing that polymorph rules are relevant for spells or supernatural abilities such as Wild Shape.

  • Some abilities that work as a spell tell you what their DC is, like the bard’s fascinate performance. An ability that doesn’t tell you anything about its DC has a DC of 10 + the spell level + the key spellcasting ability score of the class that granted it (or Charisma otherwise).

    Some rules on how to get spell details for thing that are not spells.

  • How does damage work if I have various effects that change my actual size.

    The rules mix spells and non-spell effects together, as they all work the same in the rules.

  • If you have two spells with effects other than bonuses.
    This FAQ originated from a thread discussing “This effect does not stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon” and some people saying “Threat range is not the same as a critical multiplier”. The FAQ makes it clear that despite critical multiplier not being a threat range modification, they effects don’t stack. This is similar in concept to the “it isn’t a spell” position in regards to combining magical effects.
...

you are well within your rights to house rule that it doesn't work but by raw it does work.

the line (You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell.) is merely letting you know that you cant use a polymorph spell and things like wild shape at the same time.

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Lady-J wrote:
you are well within your rights to house rule that it doesn't work but by raw it does work.

You differ in interpretation in a way that FAQ tend to rule against.

Nothing more to be said. You see our way as a house rule in the same way we see your way a house rule.


James Risner wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
you are well within your rights to house rule that it doesn't work but by raw it does work.

You differ in interpretation in a way that FAQ tend to rule against.

Nothing more to be said. You see our way as a house rule in the same way we see your way a house rule.

1)all spells are magical effects

2)not all magical effects are spells
3)supernatural abilities are not spells but are magical effects
4)if multiple effects would apply the same type of bonus unless they say they stack they do not stack use the larger of the bonuses
5)so long as there is not an existing size effect on a target they can have a size changing effect put on them
6)a medium creature who is the benefactor of an effect and remains medium size has no size effecting effect on them
7)as long as there is not a polymorph effect on a creature you may place a polymorph effect on said creature
8)you may not use a size changing spell on a creature who has a polymorph spell on them

these are all raw, by raw a creature with a polymorph effect can benefit from a non spell size change and this is doubly true for non spell polymorph effects

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Lady-J wrote:
these are all raw, by raw a creature with a polymorph effect can benefit from a non spell size change and this is doubly true for non spell polymorph effects

If you believe this is so, you are in the vast majority. You really need to make a new thread, link all the previous threads where the discussion happened, and hope for a FAQ.

I don't expect you to be confirmed.

That isn't how the rules work, how they are described to work, how every similar issue has been demonstrated to work.

Either, you accept your view isn't going to be accepted as fact until proven with a FAQ in your favor or please stop continuing to assert your position is RAW, the one true interpretation to bind them all.

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