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I just stumbled across the Leveraging weapon quality. It doubles a weapon's enhancement bonus when performing a few combat maneuvers.
I have a high level magus character that has been using and abusing the Dueling weapon property from the Pathfinder Field Guide. The Dueling property gives a weapon a luck bonus equal to double the enhancement bonus when performing most combat maneuvers.
So what I have been doing is using my magus's arcane pool power to boost his weapon's enhancement bonus up to +4. Combined with the Dueling enhancement, I get a +8 Luck bonus on combat maneuvers.
If I give my weapon the Leveraging quality, it looks like my +4 enhancement would turn into a +8 enhancement bonus with a +16 luck bonus when performing maneuvers. (Well, not all maneuvers. Only a few are on the list for both qualities.)
That is a combined +24 bonus on maneuver attempts. Is that right? I keep thinking this can't work, but it looks like it does.
Nope. The two bonuses don't affect each other, they apply separately.
The bonus from leveraging does not increase the enhancement bonus, it is an untyped bonus equal to the enhancement bonus, so won't be doubled by duelling.
+4 enhancement, +8 luck, +4 untyped = +16.
I agree, that both bonuses work off the original bonus, not the modified value. So neither affects the other.
Still, this gives you a +16 to a maneuver, which is huge.
I suppose you're talking about a different dueling enchantment.
This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons. A dueling weapon (which must be a weapon that can be used with the Weapon Finesse feat) gives the wielder a +4 enhancement bonus on initiative checks, provided the weapon is drawn and in hand when the Initiative check is made. It provides a +2 bonus on disarm checks and feint checks, a +2 bonus to CMD to resist disarm attempts, and a +2 to the DC to perform a feint against the wielder.
I'm obviously missing something here...
Furthermore, what's this luck bonus? It seems insane. Get the Fate's Favored trait, it gives another +1 on any luck bonus.
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Nope. The two bonuses don't affect each other, they apply separately.
The bonus from leveraging does not increase the enhancement bonus, it is an untyped bonus equal to the enhancement bonus, so won't be doubled by duelling.
But it does say it doubles the enhancement bonus.
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Let's see how top-end we can get with just the stuff listed in the thread so far:
1) Magus, Arcane Pool: "At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves."
...so, +5 enhancement bonus max.
2) Leveraging: "...weapon’s enhancement bonus is doubled when applied to combat maneuver checks to attempt bull rush, drag, reposition, and trip combat maneuvers...." (Now +10 enhancement bonus.)
3) Dueling (PSFG): "...grants a luck bonus equal to twice its enhancement bonus on the CMB check made to carry out the maneuver. The dueling weapon also grants this same luck bonus to the wielder’s CMD score against these types of combat maneuvers. These combat maneuvers include disarm and trip maneuvers...."
...the cloudy grammar of this passage could be construed per RAW that the weapon's "enhancement bonus on the CMB check made to carry out the maneuver" is +10, for which it then "gains" (not multiplies) a matching Luck bonus.
4) Fate's Favored, shrunk to rather tiny cherry on top of this cheesecake, yielding a +21 tripping weapon.
...I wonder how fast I could level one of these in a PFS Paired Opportunist Vicious Stomper before it's nerfed....
In that example the Luck bonus would be 20 as it gains a Luck bonus equal to twice the enhancement bonus, not matching the enhancement bonus.
And I may just break this bad boy out at a con this weekend to see the reaction.
of all the classes in pathfinder, a magus needs this build least of all... just use spell combat to cast truestrike and then make whatever maneuver you want. even with the -2 from spell combat that puts you at +18 above your normal attack bonus (effectively +22 since the above figures all include your +4 enhancement bonus in them).
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In that example the Luck bonus would be 20 as it gains a Luck bonus equal to twice the enhancement bonus, not matching the enhancement bonus.Dear me, my math was all off, then: -- With Fate's Favored boosting the Luck bonus to 21, the aggregate overall total is +31.
And I may just break this bad boy out at a con this weekend to see the reaction.
<thumbs up>
Don't forget your +10 Headband of Awesome.
Oh, it's absolutely ludicrous. I 100% agree. I just have a build that I made in response to being told that the Reposition Maneuver was laughably weak and should never be used. So I made a magus that can break 50 on reposition maneuvers on a regular basis. Does almost no damage, but tends to throw things around in a pretty spectacular fashion.
This could kick up the humor level a couple notches.
Fighters advance weapon training Warrior spirit can abuse the crap out of this too...verrrrry interesting.
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of all the classes in pathfinder, a magus needs this build least of all... just use spell combat to cast truestrike and then make whatever maneuver you want. even with the -2 from spell combat that puts you at +18 above your normal attack bonus (effectively +22 since the above figures all include your +4 enhancement bonus in them).
They'll need every bit of it to trip colossal monsters: The tarrasque's CMD is 66(+4 to trip for four-legged). CL20 Magus BAB15+20(Truestrike)+31(sillysword) = 66.
Weapon Focus, Ability Bonus, Improved and greater Manuever. That should give at least another 10 or 12 to the pile.
Let's see how top-end we can get with just the stuff listed in the thread so far:
1) Magus, Arcane Pool: "At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves."
...so, +5 enhancement bonus max.
2) Leveraging: "...weapon’s enhancement bonus is doubled when applied to combat maneuver checks to attempt bull rush, drag, reposition, and trip combat maneuvers...." (Now +10 enhancement bonus.)
Dueling and Leveraging add +2 to the equivalent bonus. Since no weapon can ever have an equivalent bonus greater than +10, you can't have a +10 Dueling Leveraging weapon. At most you could have a +8 Dueling Leveraging weapon.
of all the classes in pathfinder, a magus needs this build least of all... just use spell combat to cast truestrike and then make whatever maneuver you want. even with the -2 from spell combat that puts you at +18 above your normal attack bonus (effectively +22 since the above figures all include your +4 enhancement bonus in them).They'll need every bit of it to trip colossal monsters: The tarrasque's CMD is 66(+4 to trip for four-legged). CL20 Magus BAB15+20(Truestrike)+31(sillysword) = 66.
The typical magus(Medium sized) is far too small to trip the Tarrasque.
The typical magus(Medium sized) is far too small to trip the Tarrasque.of all the classes in pathfinder, a magus needs this build least of all... just use spell combat to cast truestrike and then make whatever maneuver you want. even with the -2 from spell combat that puts you at +18 above your normal attack bonus (effectively +22 since the above figures all include your +4 enhancement bonus in them).They'll need every bit of it to trip colossal monsters: The tarrasque's CMD is 66(+4 to trip for four-legged). CL20 Magus BAB15+20(Truestrike)+31(sillysword) = 66.
True. You'd need something like Enlarge Person + Poised Bearing Feat + Imposing Bearing Feat.
True. You'd need something like Enlarge Person + Poised Bearing Feat + Imposing Bearing Feat.The typical magus(Medium sized) is far too small to trip the Tarrasque.of all the classes in pathfinder, a magus needs this build least of all... just use spell combat to cast truestrike and then make whatever maneuver you want. even with the -2 from spell combat that puts you at +18 above your normal attack bonus (effectively +22 since the above figures all include your +4 enhancement bonus in them).They'll need every bit of it to trip colossal monsters: The tarrasque's CMD is 66(+4 to trip for four-legged). CL20 Magus BAB15+20(Truestrike)+31(sillysword) = 66.
Uhh... if you're planning to trip the tarrasque maybe splurge on a monstrous physique 3 or 4 spell.
True. You'd need something like Enlarge Person + Poised Bearing Feat + Imposing Bearing Feat.The typical magus(Medium sized) is far too small to trip the Tarrasque.of all the classes in pathfinder, a magus needs this build least of all... just use spell combat to cast truestrike and then make whatever maneuver you want. even with the -2 from spell combat that puts you at +18 above your normal attack bonus (effectively +22 since the above figures all include your +4 enhancement bonus in them).They'll need every bit of it to trip colossal monsters: The tarrasque's CMD is 66(+4 to trip for four-legged). CL20 Magus BAB15+20(Truestrike)+31(sillysword) = 66.
Elemental Body III: large size +6/+4 size bonus to either STR or DEX, depending on element and personal preference.
Uhh... if you're planning to trip the tarrasque maybe splurge on a monstrous physique 3 or 4 spell.True. You'd need something like Enlarge Person + Poised Bearing Feat + Imposing Bearing Feat.The typical magus(Medium sized) is far too small to trip the Tarrasque.of all the classes in pathfinder, a magus needs this build least of all... just use spell combat to cast truestrike and then make whatever maneuver you want. even with the -2 from spell combat that puts you at +18 above your normal attack bonus (effectively +22 since the above figures all include your +4 enhancement bonus in them).They'll need every bit of it to trip colossal monsters: The tarrasque's CMD is 66(+4 to trip for four-legged). CL20 Magus BAB15+20(Truestrike)+31(sillysword) = 66.
Monstrous Physique will only get you to Huge. You would still need something like Poised Bearing to count as Gargantuan.
Elemental Body III: large size +6/+4 size bonus to either STR or DEX, depending on element and personal preference.True. You'd need something like Enlarge Person + Poised Bearing Feat + Imposing Bearing Feat.The typical magus(Medium sized) is far too small to trip the Tarrasque.of all the classes in pathfinder, a magus needs this build least of all... just use spell combat to cast truestrike and then make whatever maneuver you want. even with the -2 from spell combat that puts you at +18 above your normal attack bonus (effectively +22 since the above figures all include your +4 enhancement bonus in them).They'll need every bit of it to trip colossal monsters: The tarrasque's CMD is 66(+4 to trip for four-legged). CL20 Magus BAB15+20(Truestrike)+31(sillysword) = 66.
You'd still need something like Poised Bearing and Imposing Bearing to count as gargantuan.
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You'd still need something like Poised Bearing and Imposing Bearing to count as gargantuan.Elemental Body III: large size +6/+4 size bonus to either STR or DEX, depending on element and personal preference.True. You'd need something like Enlarge Person + Poised Bearing Feat + Imposing Bearing Feat.The typical magus(Medium sized) is far too small to trip the Tarrasque.of all the classes in pathfinder, a magus needs this build least of all... just use spell combat to cast truestrike and then make whatever maneuver you want. even with the -2 from spell combat that puts you at +18 above your normal attack bonus (effectively +22 since the above figures all include your +4 enhancement bonus in them).They'll need every bit of it to trip colossal monsters: The tarrasque's CMD is 66(+4 to trip for four-legged). CL20 Magus BAB15+20(Truestrike)+31(sillysword) = 66.
Yes, but the extra stat bonuses from Elemental Body III vs. Enlarge are still nice.
This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons. The wielder of a leveraging weapon gains a bonus equal to the weapon’s enhancement bonus to her Combat Maneuver Defense against bull rush, dragAPG, repositionAPG, and trip combat maneuvers. The leveraging weapon’s enhancement bonus is doubled when applied to combat maneuver checks to attempt bull rush, drag, reposition, and trip combat maneuvers.
A dueling weapon bears magical enhancements that makes it particularly effective at performing certain combat maneuvers. When a dueling weapon is used to perform a combat maneuver that utilizes the weapon only (see below), it grants a luck bonus equal to twice its enhancement bonus on the CMB check made to carry out the maneuver. The dueling weapon also grants this same luck bonus to the wielder’s CMD score against these types of combat maneuvers. These combat maneuvers include disarm and trip maneuvers, but not bull rush, grapple, or overrun maneuvers. If you’re using the additional combat maneuvers in the Advanced Player’s Guide, this also includes any dirty trick maneuvers that utilize the weapon, as well as reposition combat maneuvers, but not drag or steal combat maneuvers. Note that this luck bonus stacks with the weapon’s enhancement bonus, which in and of itself adds to CMB checks normally.
Normally, your +4 weapon gives a +4 to CMB for certain combat maneuvers.
With Leveraging, that +4 is doubled to +8 when applying it to the check (note this is done last after all other calculations) and you get an additional bonus on the check equal to the weapon's enhancement bonus (+4). So, with a +4 Leveraging weapon you get a +12 to CMB for certain combat maneuvers.
With Dueling, you get a luck bonus equal to two times the enhancement bonus (+8). The luck bonus is not +16 because Leveraging only doubles the enhancement bonus when applied to the check. Thusly, a +4 Leveraging, Dueling weapon gives a +20 to CMB for certain combat maneuvers. Fate's Favoured adds one more on top of this.
The "additional bonus" your referencing with leveraging is to CMD, not CMB.
Leveraging gives a bonus to BOTH CMB and CMD.
This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons. The wielder of a leveraging weapon gains a bonus equal to the weapon’s enhancement bonus to her Combat Maneuver Defense against bull rush, dragAPG, repositionAPG, and trip combat maneuvers. The leveraging weapon’s enhancement bonus is doubled when applied to combat maneuver checks to attempt bull rush, drag, reposition, and trip combat maneuvers.
I like to use a whip, grow to size huge and threaten out to something like 45 feat.
(Actually, I've only done that once, but it was entertaining)
I figure, if I'm going to be a one trick pony, I better be pretty good at that trick.
Whips don't normally threaten... with the whip mastery feat chain you can but it only extends your reach 5' beyond normal (iirc)
You're 100% right Nate Lange. I misspoke. I was thinking "reach" but wrote "threaten".
So, back onto the original topic. When considering order of operations and all that jazz, what would be the final bonuses to trip and reposition for a +4 Leveraging Dueling weapon?
I think there are only 4 possible options.
1. +8 Enhancement and +8 Luck bonus.
Or
2. +8 Enhancement and +16 Luck bonus.
Or
3. +5 Enhancement and +8 Luck bonus.
Or
4. +5 Enhancement and +10 Luck bonus.
The "additional bonus" your referencing with leveraging is to CMD, not CMB.Leveraging gives a bonus to BOTH CMB and CMD.
This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons. The wielder of a leveraging weapon gains a bonus equal to the weapon’s enhancement bonus to her Combat Maneuver Defense against bull rush, dragAPG, repositionAPG, and trip combat maneuvers. The leveraging weapon’s enhancement bonus is doubled when applied to combat maneuver checks to attempt bull rush, drag, reposition, and trip combat maneuvers.
Actually, I think they're right. I misread Leveraging and gave it an additional +4 to CMB in the second section when actually that bonus is only applied to CMD.
So my total calculation for a +4 Leveraging Dueling weapon is +16 with a +8 enhancement and +8 luck bonus.
Is the PSFG version of Dueling from a newer source than the 2012 Ultimate Equipment version? (The former is a +1 enhancement that can be applied to any melee weapon, while the latter is a 14,000gp addition applicable only the finessable weapons.)