Yellow,
here is NaeNae. yup that's me! Total of two sessions with Pathfinder, with the first being utter crap in combat and the second being a god of bluffs and diplomacy. So here I am, to ask other more veteran players to check my ideas.
A short introduction of my character first. Her name is Elana, she is a Half Elf. Her Racial Traits are Low Light Vision, Keen Senses, Drow Magic and Elven Immunities. She uses a Dagger, has a Sap and has a bag of caltrops and two of marbles at her belt. She is halfway to lvl 2 now and preparing myself for that, I decided to have a look at the Rogue Talents.
She is the generic rogue in the party, being the face of the group, their city guide and a trapfinding hiker as well. I intend to focus her on those roles, but I was also looking for opportunities to make her more reliable when fighting. I want to use a Dagger, maybe two later into the game. Perhaps a bow for those moments when I can't reach my opponents without putting myself into too much danger. So here are a few questions I have... Regarding my progress as a Rogue.
1. One Dagger or Two Weapon Fighting?
As in... I will get a -2 on attacks with both weapons, but I will get two attacks instead of one. Isn't it raising the opportunity to strike the enemy?
2. What exactly does the Bomber Rogue Talent do?
As in, I understand I can make bombs, but which bombs exactly? do I have to research them like the Alchemist does? Am I to take my Rogue level for those discoveries like the Alchemist level? I am most interested in the Blinding Bomb and Grease Bomb, as I imagine those two to be most useful for my Rogue. Perhaps Entangle Bomb as well.
3. What kind of armor would you propose for a Rogue?
She is currently running in a simple Studded Leather. But should I look for light armors with better AC or rather look for medium armors made from special materials to lower their weight class? I'm utterly lost here.
4. What would you propose for Feats to make the Rogue more mobile in Combat?
I am thinking of taking the Fast Getaway Rogue Talent on level 4 perhaps, but I do not know if it's actually that good, considering there is this Spring Attack(???) feat that does more or less the same, but better? I am still a bit lost in the names of things and everything.
5. More to come, surely.
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1) Rather than answering this question directly, I'm going to link you to this helpful spreadsheet that tells you what your target numbers should be. You want to be aiming for the green numbers. If you can hit those even with the -2 from two weapon fighting then go for it, if not then you probably want to keep your accuracy up.
2) Bombs are described alchemist class description. The other kinds of bombs you are describing are gained through alchemist discoveries. You are not eligible to gain alchemist discoveries as a rogue, so you can never gain these kinds of bombs. Rub-Eta mentions the bomber's discovery rogue talent, which would let you take these other kinds of bombs. However, you do get very few bombs per day so this is a lot of investment in an ability you cannot use very frequently.
3) Depends on your dexterity score. You generally want the highest AC that doesn't interfere with your dexterity. Given your current level, special materials are completely unaffordable. Studded Leather is an ideal choice if you have 20 dexterity, while a chain shirt would be preferable if you have 18 dexterity.
4) Spring Attack costs way too many feats for what it does. It'd be passable if it had no prerequisites, but requiring two mediocre feats it's not worth consideration. Fast Getaway is a passable choice; in general if you're spending your time moving around rather than attacking in combat, you may as well have been a Bard instead of a Rogue and support your party members that way.
Also, are you using the Rogue from the core rulebook or the one from Pathfinder unchained? The new version from Pathfinder Unchained is a significant improvement over the original, which is widely panned as being the weakest class in the game and a newbie trap.
Yellow,
here is NaeNae. yup that's me! Total of two sessions with Pathfinder, with the first being utter crap in combat and the second being a god of bluffs and diplomacy. So here I am, to ask other more veteran players to check my ideas.A short introduction of my character first. Her name is Elana, she is a Half Elf. Her Racial Traits are Low Light Vision, Keen Senses, Drow Magic and Elven Immunities. She uses a Dagger, has a Sap and has a bag of caltrops and two of marbles at her belt. She is halfway to lvl 2 now and preparing myself for that, I decided to have a look at the Rogue Talents.
She is the generic rogue in the party, being the face of the group, their city guide and a trapfinding hiker as well. I intend to focus her on those roles, but I was also looking for opportunities to make her more reliable when fighting. I want to use a Dagger, maybe two later into the game. Perhaps a bow for those moments when I can't reach my opponents without putting myself into too much danger. So here are a few questions I have... Regarding my progress as a Rogue.
1. One Dagger or Two Weapon Fighting?
As in... I will get a -2 on attacks with both weapons, but I will get two attacks instead of one. Isn't it raising the opportunity to strike the enemy?
2. What exactly does the Bomber Rogue Talent do?
As in, I understand I can make bombs, but which bombs exactly? do I have to research them like the Alchemist does? Am I to take my Rogue level for those discoveries like the Alchemist level? I am most interested in the Blinding Bomb and Grease Bomb, as I imagine those two to be most useful for my Rogue. Perhaps Entangle Bomb as well.
3. What kind of armor would you propose for a Rogue?
She is currently running in a simple Studded Leather. But should I look for light armors with better AC or rather look for medium armors made from special materials to lower their weight class? I'm utterly lost here.
4. What would you propose for Feats to make the Rogue more mobile in Combat?
I am thinking of...
1. This depends on your build. TWF is very feat intensive, and requires high Dexterity. You get more attacks, but the penalties can really hurt you when facing enemies with high A.C.
2. I don't think it is a good talent to take due that you're not a good class or archetype for it. I'd consider more simple ones, like the Weapon Training or Combat Trick talents, especially if TWF is on the table.
3. Depends on your Dexterity. If you minmax it, an armor without a Maximum Dexterity Bonus would be ideal. Even Bracers of Armor should be considered. But, if you have a lower Dexterity (16 or less), then the heavier armor should be used.
4. There is a feat "chain" on the forums that lets you tumble and catch enemies flat-footed for sneak attack bonuses. I forget what it all entails though.
5. Have you considered archetypes, or even the Unchained Rogue, which can be integrated seamlessly into your current build?
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I'm playing the Core Rogue. GM didn't want to kearn the changes for Unchained. Also I noticed I did not post my attributes...
Str 11
Dex 16
Con 12
Wis 10
Int 14
Cha 14
As for the moving... From what I learned so far, Rogues have low hp and are fully reliant on friends to deal decent damage. I assume you have to move around to get into a flank, while remaining outside of too much threat due to low hp.
And I am sorry, but I don't understand that spreadsheet. It lists bonuses or what? My attack bonus is 3, 5 if I am flanking with a friend. Which happened once so far, for some 12 enemies we faced.
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I'm playing the Core Rogue. GM didn't want to kearn the changes for Unchained.
Seriously? That's a pretty lame excuse. It strikes me that this GM either has poor judgement or is inexperienced himself. I would never leave a beginner alone with the core rogue; it's a newbie trap and could have a detrimental effect on the player's enjoyment of the game.
Str 11
Dex 16
Con 12
Wis 10
Int 14
Cha 14
Ouch, that's going to be hard to work with. So you definitely want a chain shirt at this juncture, and two weapon fighting isn't happening with a paltry 16 in dexterity.
From what I learned so far, Rogues have low hp and are fully reliant on friends to deal decent damage.
Rogues have average hit points; the bigger problem is that they tend to have passable AC so those hit points don't go as far. Rogues do like having flanking buddies, though.
And I am sorry, but I don't understand that spreadsheet. It lists bonuses or what? My attack bonus is 3, 5 if I am flanking with a friend. Which happened once so far, for some 12 enemies we faced.
The spreadsheet is a guideline to tell you how strong you need to be to beat common monsters at each level. It's a very quick resource to just compare and see how your character stacks up. For each column there are three numbers at every level. If you have the blue number you are in excellent shape and will be very strong in combat. If you have a green number you are in good shape and will be fine in combat. If you have an orange number you are passable and will struggle in combat.
For a 1st level character's to-hit, the blue number is 10, the green number is 5, and the orange number is 1. This means you hit the green number when you're flanking, but fall short when you're not. This indicates that you need to work on your to-hit and increase it, since you're slightly below what you need to hit monsters right now and are reliant on bonuses to hit the good (green) benchmark. With a non-spellcaster, you should always aim to be in the green for both to-hit and damage.
EDV is the most complicated part of this graph, but is essentially a breakdown of your damage. I won't confuse you by going into details right now, but your EDV is 4.2 when you're sneak attacking and 1.5 when you're not sneak attacking. This means you're in the green if you can sneak attack, but far below the orange if you can't. So you need to consistently flank your opponents to be effective in combat. Finding a way to increase your damage baseline would be very helpful here.
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Uhm... Other than buffing Dexterity, what else can I do to gain bonuses to attack rolls? On lvl 1 I have no attack bonus from class. I have no means to raise my Dexterity either. I trully don't see how a lvl 1 character can reach this +5 to be in the Green, not to mention the +10. That's like starting with 30 Dexterity. That's like a lot. How do you even do that?
I'm a bit puzzled by Rogue so far. The Paladin gets the Smite Stuff ability and can add his strength to his damage. With a simple swing of his sword, he deals like 1d6+3, I think. While I deal 1d4. Even our Wizard is more useful in combat than my Rogue, regardless of having the lowest level spells only.
From the top of my head... My AC is 16 I think. My saves are Fortitude 2, Reflex 5 and Will 0. Elven Immunities add a 2 to some Will saves.
I tried to edit a previous post, but it did not work, so... I have no build path planned, that's why I came here. I don't know what the class is good at doing and in what it is weak. I only ever RPed in story based RPGs, so my only experience with creating a character is just a story POV. I know who I want Elana to be, but not how to fit my idea into the mechanics. I wanted her to be a half elf thief and scoundrel with minor magical abilities which she uses to fool and mislead, aiding herself in the many heists she conducts. That is why I picked Drow Magic as racial feat. That is why I want to pick Minor and Major Magic rogue talents. But other than that, I do not know what to do. The Bomber path which I only discovered today seems like something she might use, considering the Blinding Bomb and Smoke Bomb would fit the idea of Rogue perfectly.
But I am a noob, so I came here for advice :)
Uhm... Other than buffing Dexterity, what else can I do to gain bonuses to attack rolls? On lvl 1 I have no attack bonus from class. I have no means to raise my Dexterity either. I trully don't see how a lvl 1 character can reach this +5 to be in the Green, not to mention the +10. That's like starting with 30 Dexterity. That's like a lot. How do you even do that?
I'm a bit puzzled by Rogue so far. The Paladin gets the Smite Stuff ability and can add his strength to his damage. With a simple swing of his sword, he deals like 1d6+3, I think. While I deal 1d4. Even our Wizard is more useful in combat than my Rogue, regardless of having the lowest level spells only.
From the top of my head... My AC is 16 I think. My saves are Fortitude 2, Reflex 5 and Will 0. Elven Immunities add a 2 to some Will saves.
I tried to edit a previous post, but it did not work, so... I have no build path planned, that's why I came here. I don't know what the class is good at doing and in what it is weak. I only ever RPed in story based RPGs, so my only experience with creating a character is just a story POV. I know who I want Elana to be, but not how to fit my idea into the mechanics. I wanted her to be a half elf thief and scoundrel with minor magical abilities which she uses to fool and mislead, aiding herself in the many heists she conducts. That is why I picked Drow Magic as racial feat. That is why I want to pick Minor and Major Magic rogue talents. But other than that, I do not know what to do. The Bomber path which I only discovered today seems like something she might use, considering the Blinding Bomb and Smoke Bomb would fit the idea of Rogue perfectly.
But I am a noob, so I came here for advice :)
Unchained Rogue is so much more powerful, since it gives you free Weapon Finesse (and eventually Dex to Damage), Debilitating Injury debuffs for easier to-hit, and an obvious need to incentivize a stat (i.e. more Dex focus, less Strength). It's also stupid-easy to implement compared to the other Unchained Classes, so the GM saying it's confusing is either lying or is really lazy.
Level 1, your attributes will give the most bonuses. The Paladin probably has an 18 Strength plus his BAB of 1. You're just too spread out. You have a 14 Intelligence despite not having any casting, and a 14 Charisma when you have little use for it outside of modifiers to some face skills (which a dip in Inquisitor fixes). If you dumped those stats down, you can easily have more to-hit without sacrificing your out of combat utility.
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Reaching high attack: an attack stat of 20 is +5, bab of 1 gets to +6, Weapon focus is +1 for 7, masterwork weapon is +1 for 8 and rage for +2 for +10.
So for you, if stats and race are locked in, Weapon focus and a masterwork weapon gets you +2 to accuracy.
Damage is just gone, you're REALLy bad when not getting sneak attack, but there's nothing you can do really to change that, especially if limited to core stuff.
But these are the 2 main problems with rogues in combat, low accuracy and low damage when not sneak attacking.
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Uhm... Other than buffing Dexterity, what else can I do to gain bonuses to attack rolls? On lvl 1 I have no attack bonus from class. I have no means to raise my Dexterity either. I trully don't see how a lvl 1 character can reach this +5 to be in the Green, not to mention the +10. That's like starting with 30 Dexterity. That's like a lot. How do you even do that?
I'm a bit puzzled by Rogue so far. The Paladin gets the Smite Stuff ability and can add his strength to his damage. With a simple swing of his sword, he deals like 1d6+3, I think. While I deal 1d4. Even our Wizard is more useful in combat than my Rogue, regardless of having the lowest level spells only.
Rogues do have trouble hitting these benchmarks. As I and others have already stated, they're widely regarded as the weakest class in the game. It's a real problem, and that's why the Rogue got a buffed up version in Pathfinder Unchained. Most other classes have either spellcasting or full base attack bonus, making it easy to hit that +5 to hit at 1st level; Rogues have to make up an extra point somewhere. In your current situation the best you can do is get a masterwork weapon. If you could rebuild your character, getting your dexterity up to 18 would also help move you towards that goal. If you could use the unchained rogue, weapon finesse would be a bonus feat and you'd be free to pick up something like weapon focus instead.
As for hitting +10 to-hit at 1st level, that's a little trickier and usually Barbarians are the only class you'll see with numbers that big at the 1st level. A barbarian can easily have +1 base attack bonus, +6 from strength while raging, +1 masterwork weapon, and +2 from charging = +10 to hit. That said, it is possible to get that high with an Unchained Rogue. Using a Goblin with 22 dexterity (+6), weapon focus (+1), a masterwork weapon (+1) and charging (+2) you're at +10 to hit. Mind you I would prefer to be more diversified rather than throwing everything into dexterity like that. Not every character can hit the blue threshold, nor do you need to or even want to. Blue is where you start getting into "one punch man" territory where you're actually risking making major fights anticlimatic because you outclass the enemies so badly, and exceeding the blue threshold is a warning you may have gone too far in optimizing your character.
TL;DR: aim for the green numbers. Those are perfectly achievable and realistic.
I tried to edit a previous post, but it did not work
There's a 1 hour time limit to edit posts on the Paizo forum. It's annoying, especially when I come back 2 hours later and notice a typo that I can't correct anymore.
I wanted her to be a half elf thief and scoundrel with minor magical abilities which she uses to fool and mislead, aiding herself in the many heists she conducts.
That sounds like you might have been happier with a Bard than a Rogue. Minor and Major Magic are very good Rogue talents, though.
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and bards are pretty great at dealing with most traps too if you still want to cover that. (Even better at this if certain archetypes are allowed)
Also bards are a lot easier to do it's thing and still have combat usefulness.
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It sounds like the Archaeologist Bard archetype would be a better fit for your character concept than the Rogue class.
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Rogues are skill based to start with, not combat based.
That's the problem, Pathfinder is a game where you can expect combat situations to come up fairly often, and having some combat-related abilities is a basic expectation of any character. It doesn't have to be the focus of your concept, but you should have such abilities.
You definitely can get a Rogue to be decent at combat, but it requires a lot of effort to do so and necessarily focuses most of the attention of your build there, even if you wanted to focus elsewhere. This is problematic since by its very nature the Rogue appeals to players who want to focus on things other than hack and slash, which is what makes it such an insidious newbie trap. Other classes have the necessary combat abilities given to them on a silver platter, letting them focus their build on the things they want to be focusing on.
The numbers on that spreadsheet are a bit high, they scale way too fast, green would be good and blue would be optimized.
The numbers on the spreadsheet were generated by using the stats for monsters of the respective CR's. So yes, that's how fast stats scale in Pathfinder. If you aren't keeping pace with that, you're not keeping pace with the monsters.
But yes, green is your target. You don't need to aim for blue unless your goal is to completely dominate in that fashion.
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It may be frustrating, but it's not too late to multiclass!
Not sure what he can go into. Those low stats are just a big problem and there's no easy way to get around them. One advanced option I toyed around with is the Arcane Trickster, but with only 14 in intelligence that would be tricky to pull off and not something I'd recommend for a beginner. Plus if his GM doesn't allow the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat then it doesn't work at all. Given the concept NaeNae has expressed and the stats he's shown, rebuilding as a Bard would seem the ideal solution for him.
If your DM won't at least let you go unchained rogue, consider taking the http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo-rogue-a rchetypes/eldritch-scoundrel-rogue/ archetype, though you'll have to get your DM to let you retrain slightly.
I would only recommend the Eldritch Scoundrel archetype if you can use it with Unchained Rogue. Setting aside the difficulty in building with this archetype without the URogue, it's just straight-up inferior to the Sandman Bard without URogue class features.
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I am not considering a change in the character, be it tweaks to the stats or swap of class. I will play with what I have and try to fill in the gaps with what I can think of. It will be a nice experience to learn the system.
I will move to a short sword for that higher damage dice, I guess and stick to one weapon. After the first fight we had, I see the need for a ranged weapon, as there were lots of turns when I did absolutely nothing, trying to sneak on the enemies shile my team was butchering them. Yes, I do feel a bit useless in combat, especially considering that for 4 attack rolls I managed 3 of them were natural 1s and the other was a 4.
The reason why I have 14 in Intelligence, is because my GM said, as have you, that the concept sill require a lot of skill points to work. Now I have 10 of those per level up. And it is added to the Minor ans Major Magic talents. And since today I know that it also influences the ammount of bombs per day. I don't know if it will work, or if our GM will send us to places where the character concept can be used to it's fullest. But I will hope for the best.
On a side note, would you rather pick feats or rogue talents? It seems that if I want to use both magics and bombs, I am bound for talents. Which might make me starved on feats.
For now I have Weapon Finesse for the Dex instead of Str mod to attacks. Halfway to lvl 2, I expect to reach it during our next session. I will either pick Minor Magic (Mqge Hand) or perhaps Fast Stealth, so I can move quicker around the battlefield.
I considered at first a build based on throwing knives, but then I realised I can deal sneak damage with them reliably. I considered a whip, but it was extremely feat intensive. Perhaps a short sword and bombs will be the way to go.
What would you consider key feats to take? I have Weapon Finesse already. I would rather focus on avoiding damage rather than dealing it. There are a lot of them and so little I can actually have... Makes me sad I can't eventually have all :D
Edit:
It's Naeli :) That's my nickname. Friends call me NaeNae out of fondness. And it's a she, not a he :P
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Well, if you're going to stick with your current character and try to make it work, then the best we can do is shore up your combat options.
You aren't going to fix much with your Rogue talent, and both Minor Magic and Fast Stealth are reasonable picks. Choose which one appeals to you. At the current junction, the biggest impact we can make is with gear. Here are some good options for you, Naeli:
1) Masterwork weaponry - it's +1 to hit, and you need every +1 you can get.
2) Shortsword - definitely a useful upgrade on your dagger. Daggers are useful as concealed weapons, but in your situation you care more about the extra damage.
3) Shortbow - because being able to ping things at a distance is useful, and thrown weapons have pitiful range. Well worth the nominal cost of the weapon. Bows are also better than crossbows.
4) Acid Flask and Alchemist Fire - these items are a tad expensive at low levels, but they are the best catch all you can get. They use a touch attack when you roll to hit, meaning you ignore (among other things) the armor of the target. This makes them significantly more accurate. They also are effective against swarms, which regular weapon attacks are ineffective against. Their damage is also pretty nifty (equal or better than the bomb you're looking at).
5) Masterwork light shield - rogues aren't proficient in shields, so you take a penalty when you use this. The penalty is equal to the shield's armor check penalty. The armor check penalty of a masterwork light shield is 0. In other words, there is no non-proficiency penalty. There are other tricks you can pull to use other kinds of armor without having the proficiency, but this is the only one applicable at your current level.
6) A wand - if you're invested in the use magic device skill (and as a rogue with 14 intelligence and 14 charisma, you definitely should have this skill) then a wand can be an extremely convenient item. They may look expensive, but a 1st level wand works out to 15 gp per charge. It's actually a pretty reasonable overhead.
I am not considering a change in the character, be it tweaks to the stats or swap of class. I will play with what I have and try to fill in the gaps with what I can think of. It will be a nice experience to learn the system.
I will move to a short sword for that higher damage dice, I guess and stick to one weapon. After the first fight we had, I see the need for a ranged weapon, as there were lots of turns when I did absolutely nothing, trying to sneak on the enemies shile my team was butchering them. Yes, I do feel a bit useless in combat, especially considering that for 4 attack rolls I managed 3 of them were natural 1s and the other was a 4.
The reason why I have 14 in Intelligence, is because my GM said, as have you, that the concept sill require a lot of skill points to work. Now I have 10 of those per level up. And it is added to the Minor ans Major Magic talents. And since today I know that it also influences the ammount of bombs per day. I don't know if it will work, or if our GM will send us to places where the character concept can be used to it's fullest. But I will hope for the best.
On a side note, would you rather pick feats or rogue talents? It seems that if I want to use both magics and bombs, I am bound for talents. Which might make me starved on feats.
For now I have Weapon Finesse for the Dex instead of Str mod to attacks. Halfway to lvl 2, I expect to reach it during our next session. I will either pick Minor Magic (Mqge Hand) or perhaps Fast Stealth, so I can move quicker around the battlefield.
I considered at first a build based on throwing knives, but then I realised I can deal sneak damage with them reliably. I considered a whip, but it was extremely feat intensive. Perhaps a short sword and bombs will be the way to go.
What would you consider key feats to take? I have Weapon Finesse already. I would rather focus on avoiding damage rather than dealing it. There are a lot of them and so little I can actually have... Makes me sad I can't eventually have all :D
Edit:...
Alright, so you won't do a rework. Fair enough. It will still leave you with glaring issues, though, some of which are almost impossible to overcome. Of course, I presume this does mean that multiclassing is possible.
The problem with ranged attacks is that you have practically no opportunity to take advantage of your sneak attack unless you invest in Sniping, and even then that's not great if you're wanting to pump your to-hit as much as possible, since iteratives will get the job done better. Granted, you shouldn't always be able to take advantage of sneak attack, ranged combat significantly reduces the odds of you benefitting from it, and since we've deduced that Sneak Attack is your #1 source of damage, it's a big issue.
Just because you're sneaking doesn't mean you have to be slower. You have penalties to Stealth for moving more than half your speed, sure, but there are talents to reduce or negate those penalties, so I would consider investing in those if not getting into the fight quick enough is an issue.
The majority of your skill points comes from the Rogue class (8 out of your 10 current skill points), not your Intelligence. Maybe if you were an archetype with arcane spellcasting (Eldritch Scoundrel), it'd be worthwhile, but we can't have that. You're also not factoring in your Favored Class for the extra skill point as well, or the Skill Focus feat from being Half-Elf, greatly shoring up any lower-than-usual skills. Even with the standard 8, you have: Acrobatics, Disable Device, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Bluff, Intimidate, Use Magic Device, Stealth and Perception. The extra 2 (or 3 with Favored Class) aren't particularly useful, since the majority of your skills are covered. Sure, you can put points in other auxillary skills, like Climb or Swim, but they aren't absolutely necessary since you can finagle such challenges through other means.
The Minor and Major magic talents are honestly not that great. Getting a cantrip (maybe Detect Magic?) 1/day isn't great. A 1st level spell 1/day can be useful, but it's blocked behind a talent tax, and you usually won't be using spells that require high Intelligence or Save DCs due to lack of scaling. It also doesn't scale too well in the higher levels except for the most solid/useful of spell selections (such as Shield or True Strike), neither of which require high Intelligence to use.
Fast Stealth will accomplish what you want, though the only two benefits from using Stealth compared to just walking is A. The ability to avoid Attacks of Opportunity, and B. to target Flat-Footed AC (usable against high-Dex enemies). In a lot of cases, it's not worth it unless you get the jump on the enemy (in which case they're flat-footed anyway). You also stated that accuracy is an issue. Why not go with Weapon Training for a free Weapon Focus feat to shore up that weakness?
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Having played a Dwarven core rogue all the way up to level 20 in a game I can feel your pain.
I'm also a fan of dagger wielding skulkers, but until your GM allows the Unchained version, you're in for a rough time.
My advice is as follows:
1. One Dagger or Two Weapon Fighting?
I used two short swords for the slightly higher damage versus daggers. In retrospect, a rapier is better because of the crit range, but use the weapon that you feel best suits your playstyle and idea of what your character should do. If you go two weapon, you must be prepared to not use it when you absolutely need to hit, because that -2 can be a crusher.
2. What exactly does the Bomber Rogue Talent do?
Well handled by others.
3. What kind of armor would you propose for a Rogue?
Well handled by others but look into the "shadow" enchantment when you upgrade to magical armor for a +5 (or more) to stealth.
4. What would you propose for Feats to make the Rogue more mobile in Combat?
For you, first step is either use your first Rogue Talent to pick up "Finesse Rogue" that will let you use your Dex bonus to hit with a one hand or light weapon. The Rogue Talent "Weapon Training" is also good as it gives you Weapon Focus for a +1 to hit, and should be high up on your "to do" list. Max out your Acrobatics skill so you can tumble around without taking attacks of opportunity, The "Dodge" feat is good for a +1 to AC, and you can use the next Feat "Mobility" to get an AC bonus versus those same AOO's due to movement. But as others said, the rest of the chain to Spring Attack may not be worth it.
You'll never be the biggest damage dealer in the party, but you can at least help out if you can get into flanking position, and throw a few extra dice from sneak attack.
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Okay, so a Masterwork Shortsword is a high priority purchase. I can't really afford it for now, but hopefully soon. Also weapon focus, will remember. Not much else I can do to buff my attack rolls for now.
From feats I guess Great Fortitude and Iron Will are a nice option. But then I need the Weapon Focus Shortsword first. Dodge and Mobility are sure feats I will want to pick up, as I will have to move around to get into a flank.
And I am curious, how does Bluff and Feint tie into a rogue? It's a decent way to deal sneak damage, if you can get your Bluff high enough, no?
@Adderyn: You speak of yumble. Is it just a phrase you used due to the rogue topic, or is it an actual manoeuvre that has some special influence on the battlefield?
Edit:
I assume I will need an alchemist lab and ingredients for the sake of creating bombs, if I pick bomber? But I can't find the prices of such anywhere. In the Alchemist class description it just says they are not expensive, nothing else. But it can mean anything from 1SP to 5GP per unit.
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I feel it's a little disingenuous to say that sneak attack can make you the most damaging character. Especially on a core rogue. Not saying that it can't happen, or there won't be rounds where the rogue will be excellent, but over the course of a game they do tend to be worse than most classes unless extremely well built. You have to remember that your average damage a round is a function of attacks per round, accuracy by attack, and damage per attack. Without one of the dex to damage feats, you're basically looking at weapon damage, including enhancement bonus, and sneak attack, that's about it. So at level 11 you're likely looking at 1d6+2 or 3 for the weapon, plus 6d6 for sneak attack, average 27.5 damage, on two attacks, with about a +16/11 to hit. Barbarian is looking at 3 attacks, at +20/15/10, dealing 2d6+22 for 29 average damage. And that's not even a great build, that just assuming power attack and boosting strength. So rogue has less attacks, with less accuracy, and deals less damage, and that's if they manage to get sneak attack. So a rogue really needs to do a lot to keep up to other martials, let alone come out on top.
I'm not saying this do discourage Nae from the class, just trying to put it into perspective. Also trying to say, don't feel bad if you're having a hard time in combat, making a competitive rogue is not easy, even for experienced players.
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Oh, I more or less accepted the fact, that Pathfinder rogue is not the sneaky assassin with insane burst damage, but rather a sneaky support of the team.
That being said, what would you consider a good spell-trigger item for Use Magic Device? I am not sure how it works, but from what I understand, I buy an item that has like stored set ammount of spells that I can release through UMD. But any spell can be stored in such a way? Say Feather Fall or perhaps Disguise Self?
Dot.
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NaeNae, welcome to the rogue club. I like the idea of rogues, and have played a few.
Unfortunately, I am often disappointed in the results, especially in combat. Your enjoyment will largely depend on whether your DM provides plenty of skill based challenges.
Wands and UMD can extend your usefulness.
Invisibility is your friend. Greater invisibility is a better friend. To preserve combat effectiveness, consider multiclassing with a combat class. Ranger let's you keep up your skills. Fighter gets you some quick bonus feats. Barbarian gives you a short damage burst. But ultimately, the full up martial classes will eclipse you in combat.
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I am not freaked out about combat effectiveness. If I can stab a guy from time to time, it's cool. I don't have to blast heads off left and right.
As for UMD, should I focus ln utilities like Feather Fall, Mage Hand or say... Invisibility? Or is it viable to pick a wand with something else, like a damaging spell or something?
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For UMD, always have a Wand of Cure Light Wounds, so you can heal the party between fights. Other level 1 spells which make your life easier include: Disguise Self, Grease, Silent Image, Shield, Obscuring Mist, Expeditious Retreat. There are more, but this is a good place to start. Spells that do energy damage are also fun.
A wand of Acid Splash lets you do acid damage as a ranged touch attack within 25', and it ignores SR. Speaking of ranged combat...
For ranged combat, remember that you can use Sneak Attack (against any targets denied DEX vs. you) within 30' only. That said, I suggest always having some thrown weapons like Darts. If you rely on a bow, you will find many situations where you have to do the following:
- Put away your melee weapon
- Draw your bow
- Load and fire
So I suggest a bow for dedicated ranged combat, and a fist full of darts for the "adlib ranged" rounds.
Keep your Acrobatics high, so you can get around enemies and achieve Flank more often. Talk to your fellow players about how it's good for everyone if you work together to achieve flank (both in terms of the +2 bonus, and in terms of more dead opponents in less time, which reduces overall party risk).
If your campaign is a real one, where information is useful, keep a sap on hand so you can take prisoners for interrogation (mingled with your sneak attack, of course). Another word for the sap is "diplomacy stage 2"
Bluff is the best skill ever. Bluff to feint in combat, bluff to negotiate prices, bluff to distract people so you can achieve stealth, bluff to lie your way past security, bluff to communicate to party members secretly in the middle of a conversation... bluff is awesome. Oh and Feint lets you sneak attack anyone who "can't be caught flatfooted" because a Feint simply denies the target their Dex bonus. You might seriously want to consider Improved Feint.
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I need to plan ahead a little... As there are lots of feats I need to take...
1. Weapon Focus Shortsword
2. Dodge
3. Mobility
4. Iron Will (I have 10 Wis)
5. Improved Feint
6. Great Fortitude
That about right order?
As for talents, I will try the Bomber path. I like it and with 14 Int I get three bombs oer day. Should be enough. Grab a Smoke Bomb and Blinding Bomb fir sure. Fast Stealth sounds good, fir both combat and story use.
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A few things...I need to plan ahead a little... As there are lots of feats I need to take...
1. Weapon Focus Shortsword
2. Dodge
3. Mobility
4. Iron Will (I have 10 Wis)
5. Improved Feint
6. Great FortitudeThat about right order?
As for talents, I will try the Bomber path. I like it and with 14 Int I get three bombs oer day. Should be enough. Grab a Smoke Bomb and Blinding Bomb fir sure. Fast Stealth sounds good, fir both combat and story use.
- Improved Feint (link) requires Combat Expertise
- Mobility is pretty much redundant when you have maximum Acrobatics (just tumble around your foes)
- Don't blow all your feats covering your weaknesses or you'll end up truly mediocre. Instead, focus on amplifying your strengths, and making them multi-purpose (so you don't become a 1-trick pony)
Let me provide an alternative list:
1. Combat Expertise
2. Improved Feint
3. Skill Focus - Bluff (make your feint all the more effective)
4. Combat Reflexes
5. Quickdraw
6. Greater Feint
This whole set will make you more flexible in combat, able to deliver sneak attacks under more circumstances: Feint+Attack combo, Deliver more attacks of opportunity, quickdraw+fullAttack.
Skill Focus will amplify the Bluff skill in all its wonderful uses (really, really read that skill closely).
Combat Expertise is not just a prerequisite. It will also let you do some "AC tanking," keeping an enemy at bay, to buy a round or two. Or if you have a "guaranteed hit" use this to make you better protected until next round. For example, against a low-AC target, you can use this on your opening surprise attack and you're better able to handle the counter-attack.
Quickdraw is not only fun for style, but also great for switching between melee and thrown (as per my previous post), and also it lets you full-attack with thrown weapons at level 9+. For example against a stunned target, you can throw a bunch of darts and deliver multiple Sneak Attacks without even being in melee.
Some more "mean tricks" you might want to think about is...
- Improved Unarmed Strike, which lets you deliver sneak attack even when unarmed, and also qualifies you for...
- Stunning Fist. Stunned foes are easy prey for sneak attack, and they drop held items to boot. But Stunned Foes are also easy prey for...
- Dastardly Finish, which lets you do a coupe de grace against stunned or cowering targets. Yes, the holy grail of sneak attacks, where they Fort save-or-die against your sneak attack damage. How fun!
By the way, click my name and you'll see my profile which includes a build I used a few years back. This build was very very fun to play because it was dynamic and took advantage of multiple opportunities.
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Okay, so a Masterwork Shortsword is a high priority purchase. I can't really afford it for now, but hopefully soon.
This is a screw-up on your GM's part. You're almost 2nd level, so you should have somewhere around 1,000 gp worth of gear by this point.A masterwork weapon should definitely be in your price range at this point. If you can't even save up for a masterwork weapon by this point, then wands and scrolls are out of the question.
Speaking of wands and scrolls, avoid damage-dealing ones. Alchemical items are usually better value than magical ones for offensive purposes. Alchemist's Fire and Acid Flasks are great value for offensive firepower, and while Tanglefoot Bags are a tad expensive they are significantly better than a Wand of Entangle.
Other people have already mentioned other useful wands, but let me give a shout-out to one of my favorites: the Wand of Silent Image. One thing you need to know about wands and scrolls is that they have low DC's, meaning that they are easily resisted. In this case of illusions this means they are very easy to disbelieve. This might sound like it would be useless, but illusions have a neat catch: you only get to make a saving throw *after* you've interacted with them. This means that if you create an illusion of a wall, only people who step up to and touch the wall get to make a save. So... if you're fighting a bunch of enemies who are attacking you with bows, you can create an illusionary wall in front of your party. Your own teammates can touch the wall and get a saving throw to disbelieve it, but the enemies need to run into melee range to do so!
1. Weapon Focus Shortsword
2. Dodge
3. Mobility
4. Iron Will (I have 10 Wis)
5. Improved Feint
6. Great Fortitude
Mobility isn't worth a feat, especially when you're this feat starved. Skip it and maximize the acrobatics skill instead. Improved Feint takes Combat Expertise as a prerequisite, and you'll need other feats to make it work more reliably. Crazy Tlabbar outlines that in more detail, and when it comes to something like Feints you either go all-in or not at all. Multiclassing Fighter can be helpful if you find yourself too feat-starved.
I do have to concur with the others; the Rogue doesn't have the luxury of covering his weaknesses and spreading himself too thin. You need to specialize to keep up with other classes. I'd probably stick with only one defensive feat, and Iron Will would be my choice out of those.
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A little rant about Two-Weapon Fighting: ITS A TRAP
The notion of doing lots of attacks sounds all wonderful, but for the feat cost, and the demanding requirements (very high Dex) at high level, you have to think about what it takes to use TWF.
Full Round action.
This means you're standing there, fighting like a warrior type. Do you really want to be doing that? As a Rogue? How often will you be doing that while you are able to deliver multiple sneak attacks (which is the whole draw for the feat chain)?
The most common use for the full attack is when you flank with a buddy... except the majority of your flank buddies are warriors who are less mobile than you. This means that it's usually up to you, the more fragile one, to acrobatic your way to flanking position... where you are exposed, and possibly surrounded by the enemy, while you wait for next round to stand there again to do your full attack. And for this you burned up feats so you can hit 1-3 times more (assuming you even need those attacks to get the kill)? Remember that the round you tumbled in for a flank, you probably delivered a sneak attack already, and also your flank buddy got a hit (or did a full attack). How crucial are those 1-3 extra attacks at this point? Enough to burn 1-3 feats (30% feat expense) for?
Two-weapon fighting is a trap for Rogues.
Use your trap-finding skill and see it for what it is.
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Hello, NaeNae!
Welcome to the Pathfinder!
We're glad you're here!
And now I'm going to be controversial! Woo~!
EDIT 2: UGH, hideously long is hideously long! I'll try to break it up with some spoiler tags. Sorry!
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Your GM needs be neither lazy nor a liar when they say that it's too complicated or whatever to learn the Unchained Rules. He just needs to be busy, have a life, not have tons of finances or time, and other general stress-related or concentration-related things. It's a legitimate thing.
Those people pushing back against him, though, are doing so for their own fairly legitimate reasons as well: they actually want him, you, and everyone to have a good time playing the game, and there has been a lot of past, ah, "drama" that many people go through.
I've said it many times, and I'll continue to do so - we're all passionate nerds, here: it's why we spend time pedantically correcting each other online via would-be-persuasive arguments about minutia of fake worlds for imagination play time for adults. XD
And that's not me judging others - I'm literally doing that exact same thing, like, right now. I actually think it's a good thing!
But it's also worth noting that we're passionate, and, ultimately, this is supposed to be a game to play with friends and/or loved ones to have a good time in our real-world lives.
... which brings me to why many are so passionate about this. As soon as I noticed the word "rogue" I knew one of the earlier posts (took longer than I thought, actually) would be, "don't play it." And that's pretty valid.
Now, to be clear, my two favorite non-mage classes are, by a solid margin, the monk and rogue - the two worst Core classes in the game. No, I'm serious, I heart them so very much. They just suck.
While the monk just sucks all-'round (what with his super special abilities not working together - and, in fact, actively interfering with each other -, and his magic items usually costing twice as much as others'), the rogue has it (arguably) worse, as they're super-reliant on pretty much everyone else to do anything of note, and literally everything they can do - in broad terms, rather than specific terms - can be done as well or better by almost anyone else in the party.
It is to this end that the immediate response is often, "Play literally anything else."
Anyhoo, I point all this out simply to say: I'm sorry for the aggressive tone(s) we will all likely take at some point (past and present included in this future-tense statement), and please don't hold it against us! We just want everyone to have their best life experience!
... for the most part! XD
So, on to the actual advice!
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Commission him for a 60%-of-price (or, if he's generous and really cool, just straight up 50% of the price, i.e. he's basically doing the work for free) customized magic item. What should it do?
- command word, at will (1.8k)
- CL 2-or-3
- vanish (1st level spell)
Total Cost To You (CL 2): 2.88k (that is, 2,880 gold)
Total Cost To You (CL 3): 4.32k (that is, 4,320 gold)
Total Cost To You (CL 4): 5.76k (that is, 5,760 gold)*
Total Cost To You (CL 5): 7.2k (that is, 7,200 gold)*
*
What does this do?
Why is this so important? Invisibility is a super-awesome effect that is perfect for rogues. It helps everyone ('dat stealth bonus!) but rogues love it in order to scoot quickly across the battlefield and sneak attack anything they want with near-impunity. The +20 stealth bonus helps mitigate any penalties for moving quickly across the battlefield, and gives you total concealment (50% miss chance) for anything that tries to attack you as you go. Plus, of course, you get a +2 on your attack bonus and get to ignore an opponent's Dex for their AC (flat-footed, yo).
It's also more cost effective than a wand of invisibility (even if your friend is kind of a jerk* and makes you pay full price)!
*
*
It's also worth noting that invisibility is able to be overcome by a lot of things, and I mean a lot. Not particularly exhaustive, but rather from quick scan and memory:
- arcane sight
- blindsight
- blindsense
- lifesense
- scent
- see invisibility
- true seeing
- tremorsense
.. and so on.
What is this item? What slot does it go on? Doesn't matter. Choose one that works for you. Tattoos are awesome, but bear in mind that they cost twice what other magic items do, because they don't take up an equipment slot. Intelligent items are awesome, too, especially if you're able to ensure it's not an idiot, has a low ego, and direct its special purpose toward "make sure that you serve my best interests as you would think that I would want" - that means it can activate the item itself whenever it thinks you'd want it to.
Now, obviously, you're not going to be able to afford this, yet. But it's something to look toward in the future and start trying to work out with your friends on getting to it.
If you choose to explore this avenue, do so with your GM.
Heck, he may even want you to require having the minor magic (or even major magic! eek!) talents to make it work, though, if he requires such, I'd make that a substantial discount, over-all.
Also, consider the spell-storing talent - again, your wizard (or any, really) caster buddy is useful and can allow you to cast a spell for him, later! Also, having just done a scan to look at the word "magic" in rogue talents, things like dispelling strike and shrinewalk and wand rogue can be kind of okay for later-level advanced talents! These are not strong recommendations from me, by-the-by - these are literally just casual search results that I made just now.
Other than that, general recommendations apply: pump perception, stealth, and UMD skills. Others have had a lot of good advice I'd recommend!
Hope all this helps, and good gaming!
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EDIT: Oh, and, yeah, I know this is going to be expensive, but consider grabbing protection from evil somehow that goes off as often as you can get it. Command word that puppy early on, sure, but make it continuous as soon as you can afford to do so*, to help mitigate any weakness in your will saves. The protection from evil won't eliminate your will saves, but will help mitigate any disaster due to charm or compulsion effects created by evil people!
If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.
I will point out that this is only for "continuous" and not "command word" items. Also, you can vastly reduce the cost of your command word: vanish item by making it limited daily uses, and just paying more over time to increase the uses/day.
The formula goes: (<price above> x <uses per day>)/10 {maximum: the price you calculated above}.
The reason for this is that an item that has no limit on its daily uses is priced as if it had 100 charges. An item that has any daily limit at all is priced as if it had fifty charges, instead. For the specifics of the daily limit, you divide the item cost by five, but then multiply the number of uses. So if you have that CL 2 vanish item, but only once per day, it's price to you (still presuming that 60% of price instead of 50% or 100%) is 288 gold.
At 2/day, this would instead be 576 gold. 3/day is 864, while 4/day is 1,125 gold, with 1,440 for 5/day, and 1,728 for 6/day, and so on.
Also: man, am I slow. Had somewhere around five new posts while I was typing this. XD Whoops! Anyway, they gave you solid advice for your feats, over all.
EDIT 2: Hope that helps make it more readable! Sorry!
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I agree with them about Mobility. Mobility is a useless feat for a rogue, especially a Dexterity based one because you have Acrobatics as a class skill that is extremely better if you want to leave a threatened area without provoking an attack of opportunity. Of course, at the beginning the fact that using Acrobatics without penality to leave a threatened area requires moving at half your speed could seem a problem, but it's better than you can think. However, if you want to move at your full speed through threatened area using Acrobatics without penality, as a rogue you can also take Fast Tumbler as a rogue talent that grants you the ability to move through threatened area without provoking attacks of opportunity using Acrobatics at full speed without take the -10 penality at the check. My advice is, as also others said, to use that feat slot to take something better, maybe Combat Expertise to improve your defense during combat or the evergreen Improved Initiative to improve the probability to act first
A little rant about Two-Weapon Fighting: ITS A TRAP
But... shouldn't... that mean... that rogues... are... better... at avoiding it?!
Wait... wait... waaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.
*mind blown*
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Some tips about teamwork and Rogues.
- As I mentioned multiple times, flankity flank flank. Ideally, the more tanky party member positions themselves in harms way ("behind enemy lines").
- Stunned, dex-denied, and blinded foes are your favorite prey. Talk to your casters about making regular use of spells like Grease, Widened Grease, Color Spray, Heightened Color Spray, Widened Color Spray, Blindness/Deafness, Bouncing Blindness/Deafness, Glitterdust, Widened Glitterdust, Heightened Glitterdust... you get the idea. They may not "GET DA KILLZ" but when the enemy is blind and/or stumbling around, they can be easily wiped out in 1-2 rounds and your entire party is unharmed. Even the fighter types will enjoy all the low-risk targets to power attack and deliver combat maneuvers on. That's the ultimate victory you should be looking for as a group.
- Monks are good combat buddies for the Rogue. They're even more nimble than you (so they can flank), and they can stun enemies, making them irresistible for "field surgery." I guess two wrongs can make a right...?
- Make sure that you're not the only stealther in the group. A party Monk, Ranger, Bard or stealth-capable caster should be able to be your scouting partner. In a perfect world, your Barbarian took the Highlander trait and has stealth ranks, and the party Fighter has a ring of invisibility, so the whole party can sneak, with you (the stealth specialist) a bit further ahead. Distance gives perception penalties, so if the group keeps pace (stealthily) at 100' back, the DC to notice them is 10 higher... functionally equivalent to +10 stealth.
- Wands and low level scrolls are great for a Rogue to have around. If your party has a crafter of these, get a good trade relationship and wish list going. It's in the crafter's best interests to help you be stronger, because ROI (return on investment) is measured in party effectiveness, not personal glory. For example if you had a steady supply of scrolls of Grease, then you can help the wizard out by adding a bit of extra battlefield control. Or you could do a "1-2 combo" where you use a scroll of Flaming Sphere and in the same round the Wizard casts Pyrotechnics using that sphere as fuel.
^^^Also this thing by a loooooooooooooot~!^^^
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Okay, to sum up what people said and to give more info on what's the current state of my character. So uhh... Full info on her.
Elana - Half Elf Rogue
St 11 De 16 Co 12 In 14 Wi 10 Ch 14
Lawful Neutral alignment.
Keen Senses; Low-Light vision; Drow Magic; Elven Senses; Resilent;
Mercenary; Reactionary traits.
Weapon Finesse feat.
Attached (Item) an Elven Brooch of her mother.
Drow Magic: 1/day I can use Darkness, Dancing Lights and Faerie Fire.
Weapons: 2 Daggers and 1 Sap.
Armor: Studden Leather.
Current Gold: 165.9GP (well around 135-140 if my comrades ask for a split of my last pay).
Current XP: 1000/2000 for lvl 2.
There are lots of other items I have, but they are generic stuff, like a tent, blankets, waterskin and so on. She also has a Pony named Cookie, which she uses to carry all her stuff. That's more or less all.
As for the topic of my GM. We are both heavily invested in RP in The Old Republic MMO. We RP Pathfinder once a week on Sundays. I don't think he has access to the Unchained books and I won't ask him to get it, if he does not want to. I don't know if he is experienced or not, but he is my GM and I respect his decision. He had a look at Unchained Rogue and decided that it would be difficult for him to keep track of all the changes to the class, he was also worried it might be too powerful compared to others. I don't question it, he knows more than I do.
I understand that Mobility is a poop feat for a Rogue. So perhaps...
- Weapon Focus Shortsword (I do want that +1 to attack)
- Combat Expertise
- Dodge
- Improved Feint
- Iron Will
- Greater Feint/Something, perhaps Improved Dirty Trick?
I need to read up on what I can use in combat. I knew I can use Bluff for Feint, but this Tumble with Acrobatics never occurred to me. I wonder what else did I miss.
I think I will try to make her more of a... Play defensively, till you can get an upper hand or your allies came to help you, kind of a character. That means focusing on Feint and Acrobatics. For ranged I am still thinking of using the Rogue Talents to get access to alchemist bombs, because I like the idea. Other than that... Need to talk to my GM about our pay for what we are doing. My almost 170 GP is nothing compared to what others said about 1k GP by that time.
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Your GM needs be neither lazy nor a liar when they say that it's too complicated or whatever to learn the Unchained Rules. He just needs to be busy, have a life, not have tons of finances or time, and other general stress-related or concentration-related things. It's a legitimate thing.
If we were talking something like the kineticist, or an entirely new subsystem like Psionics, then I could get that. Unchained Rogue, though, is less complicated than many archetypes and doesn't introduce any new or unusual mechanic. Maybe I am being a bit harsh, but reading something my players want to use is the least you can do.
I've said it many times, and I'll continue to do so - we're all passionate nerds, here: it's why we spend time pedantically correcting each other online via would-be-persuasive arguments about minutia of fake worlds for imagination play time for adults. XD
Guilty as charged :-D
I understand that Mobility is a poop feat for a Rogue. So perhaps...
- Weapon Focus Shortsword (I do want that +1 to attack)
- Combat Expertise
- Dodge
- Improved Feint
- Iron Will
- Greater Feint/Something, perhaps Improved Dirty Trick?
Either take all the Feint feats or none of them. It really is something you need to dedicate yourself to; take all the feats for the best possible feint, or don't bother with feinting and use those feats on other priorities.