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Quick draw + blink back belt let's your weapon instantly be back at your side and ready to use after the attack roll is finished.
Can you use the same exact thrown weapon with two weapon fighting, since it will always be at your side ready to be thrown again after an attack?
Looks like you can to me. Screwy, but a great way to save on weapon enchants!
As a GM I might disallow it, but that would be for being OP, not for violating RAW.
Not sure rules wise, but it certainly isn't intended to function that way.
Sounds fine to me if drawing your weapon is free with quick draw I don't really see how this is different to an archer drawing 7 arrows each with a new free action for each.
Nope.
Likewise, if you throw two weapons, you can't draw two new weapons and continue iterative attacks with those weapons.
Nope.
Likewise, if you throw two weapons, you can't draw two new weapons and continue iterative attacks with those weapons.
Actually with quick draw you can draw two new weapons and continue iterative with those weapons. Drawing a weapon is a free action for someone who has the feat quick draw. It specifically sates that in the feat.
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If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
Table: Two-weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.
Double Weapons: You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon was a light weapon.
Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.
I believe the general interpretation is that you need to have a weapon in each hand at the same time: Otherwise, characters could just transfer a single melee or projectile weapon from hand to hand to get all of the advantages of two-weapon fighting without actually paying for a second weapon (heck, this would even get around the 'need a free hand to reload' issue with hand crossbows and one-handed firearms).
What you are describing is more along the lines of making your iterative attacks but alternating which hand you use for flavor purposes.
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I'd probably tell the player they'd actually need two weapons to use two-weapon fighting, and since the belt has ample hooks there's plenty of space for the two weapons to benefit from the belt's magic.
It's clear that drawing and throwing the same weapon repeatedly should work fine for iterative attacks. The main rationale I'd use for not allowing that extra off-hand attack without a second weapon is for QuickDraw to work, we assume that the weapon is stowed for optimal drawing, and optimal draws for each hand assume differing placement.
And before anyone criticizes that rationale, I'm a GM who approaches the rules with the mind that all mechanics have some genre-appropriate rationalization behind them. They don't work simply because "rule says x" but because they're operationalizing some kind of genre-friendly activity in a genre-friendly way.
Actually with quick draw you can draw two new weapons and continue iterative with those weapons. Drawing a weapon is a free action for someone who has the feat quick draw. It specifically sates that in the feat.Nope.
Likewise, if you throw two weapons, you can't draw two new weapons and continue iterative attacks with those weapons.
Even with Quick Draw, you can't, because TWF locks you into using those specific weapons for the entirety of the action.
This FAQ here gives specific TWF examples, none of which permit you to interchange or outright switch which weapons you can use for your attacks.
You could have half a dozen regular Javelins, with two of them drawn out, and commit to TWF, but because your attacks are tied to those two specific javelins, drawing other ones out is strictly forbidden.
**EDIT** Especially with the Armor Spikes FAQ not letting you switch grips on weapons to carry out other attacks, since the hands you're attacking with are occupied for the entirety of the action.
Sorry for the derail but I has question.
Do you need two weapons if you wanna Brawler's flurry with weapons?
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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That FAQ doesn't cover FAQ except to say you use TWF to get additional attacks. Since each additional attack is a separate occurrence they don't go into the fact you can use a different weapon with each additional attack. So your javelin example if you have GTWF you can throw 3 different javelins. It does cover that you can use different weapons for your iterative attacks because that isn't gaining extra attacks.
Also the Armor Spikes FAQ has nothing to do with grip (we even have a grip is free action FAQ to prove it) and everything to do with getting more than 1.5 STR.
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Even with Quick Draw, you can't, because TWF locks you into using those specific weapons for the entirety of the action.
This FAQ here gives specific TWF examples, none of which permit you to interchange or outright switch which weapons you can use for your attacks.
You could have half a dozen regular Javelins, with two of them drawn out, and commit to TWF, but because your attacks are tied to those two specific javelins, drawing other ones out is strictly forbidden.
The example they give in the FAQ when referring to the 'lock down' are for melee weapons as it specifically refers to "using the longsword/mace example". If it was a general statement, then it would have been made outside that context. There is no reference in the faq that calls out thrown missle weapons. Only melee weapons are referred to.
The Quickdraw Feat says "A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow)."
Since Quickdraw is very clearly spelled out, it is pretty obvious that the 'lock down' you are referring to is not supposed to apply to thrown missile weapons. While it would be nice for Paizo to SAY that the FAQ entry is ONLY related to melee weapons, it isn't necessary.
Nifty
Thanks :)
The precondition for being able to use Two-Weapon Fighting is that you must have "a second weapon in your off hand". So unless you are a Brawler hurling Wooden Stakes (with the force of a ballista at lvl 20), or have similarly explicate shenanigans allowing you to do so, you cannot use your extra attacks from Two-Weapon Fighting to hurl with an off hand the same weapon you've already hurled with your primary hand.
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The precondition for being able to use Two-Weapon Fighting is that you must have "a second weapon in your off hand". So unless you are a Brawler hurling Wooden Stakes (with the force of a ballista at lvl 20), or have similarly explicate shenanigans allowing you to do so, you cannot use your extra attacks from Two-Weapon Fighting to hurl with an off hand the same weapon you've already hurled with your primary hand.
Double weapons....
I understand the converstation is about throwing weapons, but Two-weapon fighting doesn't always require two actual weapons. It can be done with a single weapon with the double weapon property. I don't think this has relevance to the throwing aspect, but I felt the need to clarify this point.
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Interestingly, the weapon creation rules allow for Double thrown weapons.
Regarding double weapons. You could throw it, but hands required remains the main factor here. If the weapon requires two hands to throw, you can't use two weapon fighting. If it is one handed (which is an option for some double weapons), you only strike with one end and it is treated as a one-handed weapon. So no loopholes here with double thrown weapons.
it certainly isn't intended to function that way.What else could the Blinkback Belt possibly be for if not to use the same spear again and again for your Full Attack?
I agree that the blinkback belt enables you to use the same weapons to make a full attack. But if you attempt to Two weapon fight you actually need two weapons, that's what I was talking about.
I'm okay with using two weapons with a blink back belt, to two weapon fight with thrown weapons.
If you're not using two weapons, you're not two weapon fighting.
Double weapons....
I understand the converstation is about throwing weapons, but Two-weapon fighting doesn't always require two actual weapons. It can be done with a single weapon with the double weapon property. I don't think this has relevance to the throwing aspect, but I felt the need to clarify this point.
You can only Two-Weapon Fight with Double weapons because their rules include the following bolded clause:
Double: You can use a double weapon to fight as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. You can choose to wield one end of a double weapon two-handed, but it cannot be used as a double weapon when wielded in this way—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
Which is more specific than the general rule for Two-Weapon Fighting, which requires a second weapon held in an off hand.
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I don't think 2 weapon fighting is the mechanism by which you would do this. I think 2 weapon fighting only applies to melee fighting, and the Blinkback Belt is not for that. Am I mistaken? Can I take 2 Weapon Fighting, Quickdraw, and Rapid Shot and get 3 attacks/round? Talk about House of Flying Daggers!
Yes, you're mistaken. You can get TWF and Rapid Shot and stack them (including the attack penalties), it's been done before.
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Actually with quick draw you can draw two new weapons and continue iterative with those weapons. Drawing a weapon is a free action for someone who has the feat quick draw. It specifically sates that in the feat.Nope.
Likewise, if you throw two weapons, you can't draw two new weapons and continue iterative attacks with those weapons.
Even with Quick Draw, you can't, because TWF locks you into using those specific weapons for the entirety of the action.
This FAQ here gives specific TWF examples, none of which permit you to interchange or outright switch which weapons you can use for your attacks.
You could have half a dozen regular Javelins, with two of them drawn out, and commit to TWF, but because your attacks are tied to those two specific javelins, drawing other ones out is strictly forbidden.
**EDIT** Especially with the Armor Spikes FAQ not letting you switch grips on weapons to carry out other attacks, since the hands you're attacking with are occupied for the entirety of the action.
I don't think that is correct. Consider this FAQ.
As written, yes, all of these apply because fast bombs "functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon."
So an 8th level Alchemist with Fast Bombs and TWF would be able to throw three bombs as part of a full attack action. Under your hypothesis this would only work if the Alchemist was somehow re-using one of the bombs, and we know that can't be done.
The rationale given in the FAQ is not that fast bombs is a special case but rather that it works "just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon." So if an Alchemist can use TWF while throwing three or more different bombs, then your hypothetical javelin thrower should also be able to use more than two different javelins.
So you are saying that 2 weapons means 2 weapons, and if you don't have 2 weapons you aren't 2 weapon fighting. Perhaps there are certain exceptions, such as Unarmed Strikes, maybe Combat Maneuvers, stuff like that, but the Blinkback Belt isn't one of those exceptions. It might let you switch hands, but switching hands doesn't mean you are fighting with 2 hands simultaneously?
I think I'll concede that point and withdraw my suggestion of the Quickdraw Shield.
Again, meanwhile, even if you could do this, why would you want to?
Exactly.
There are certainly exceptions as you mention, such as Unarmed Strikes.
The main reason I can see to want to do this is to use only one weapon, which would mean you only need to enhance one weapon. Which is significantly cheaper than enchanting two weapons.
So you are saying that 2 weapons means 2 weapons, and if you don't have 2 weapons you aren't 2 weapon fighting.
To be precise, the combat rules say "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon." You only get the extra attack if you fulfill the condition, which explicitly calls out a second weapon. You can not ever fulfill the condition with only one weapon, and thus cannot ever get the extra attack with only one weapon (without explicit exception).
From the bombs FAQ we now that this "second weapon" is inclusive, i.e. third weapon etc. also works (otherwise, TWF with bombs would never be possible, since you need to make all your main hand attacks first, and since you only qualify when you have an iterative attack, the off-hand attack is always at least the third bomb you throw).
On a side not, the condition does not require the character to wield both weapons at the same time.
It usually means the difference between having two weapons at 1 lower enhancement bonus than if you had only 1 weapon to enhance.
That is enough of a reason in my opinion.
In general, spending the same amount of gold on one weapon instead of two gets you 40% more bonus (because the square root of two is ~1.4). That is, if you could afford two +5 weapons you could afford one +7 weapon instead, and if you could get two +10 weapons, the same gold would get you one +14 weapon if that existed.