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Hello folks.
There was this thought stuck in my head, and this is for future homebrew purposes.
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What would Golarion's political, social and Geographical situations be, if removing a key figure in one of the factions or countries' history?
For example, [insert powerful wizard] discovers a one way ticket to head back in time, and aims to kill Abrogail Thrune I, before she could rise to power.
I'd imagine in current day, House Davian could be running Cheliax, and the country not being into Devil worship as much.
Hellknights would be absent, and houses crushed could still be in existence.
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With that thought in mind, what other nations' key figures' absence could cause an interesting alternate timeline and situation?
Thanks in advance for the brainstorming.
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Tar-Baphon.
It's entirely possible that, with his pre-emptive elimination, Ustalav would be a cheery, fun-loving country, known for its colorful native costumes and rich, delicious cheeses.
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Cheeses.
+1 :)
Ok, that's a good option for Ustalavians. Prosperity instead of ruin.
It would prevent Lastwall from having been formed, and the Shining Crusade not having been launched.
I'd remove Acavna and enjoy the fireworks.
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If you time-murdered Savith, the consequences could be very widespread indeed. All of Garund might still be a serpentfolk haven. With their god Ydersius still intact and powerful, they would not have descended into degeneracy, which means they might even have developed the magic to alter Golarion's climate, rendering more of the northerly climes warm and conducive to colonization. It is conceivable that humanity would have fallen further from its Azlanti heyday and be nothing more than nigh-feral pests.
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Ooo! What if you went back to Vyre once every decade since Aroden passed the Test of the Starstone and murdered all street urchins alive at that time? Eventually, you'd be sure to get Norgorber...
EDIT: The best part about this plan is where you sacrifice said urchins to Father Skinsaw. Time-killing is so fraught with irony...
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Perhaps... tho wouldn't it be interesting if it didn't? That is, you kill baby Aroden and the history plays out the same, except some guy named Broden raises the Starstone...
What if, in fact, every effort to change history by killing a single person merely resulted in the same history happening but with a "find and replace" function on that person's name in the history books?
If that seems unlikely, wouldn't the very unlikelihood point towards some ulterior intervention?
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So what you're saying is, we have to time-kill Drandle Dreng?
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Realistically, probably Aroden. That means no Iomedae, Cayden Cailean or Norgober, as well as no Absalom, which means no Society, right? All those lives saved, now lost. All those Paladins, Bards and Slayers who never got their calling... All those illegitimate children borne of Cayden-induced intoxication who never got to exist...
Perhaps... tho wouldn't it be interesting if it didn't? That is, you kill baby Aroden and the history plays out the same, except some guy named Broden raises the Starstone...
What if, in fact, every effort to change history by killing a single person merely resulted in the same history happening but with a "find and replace" function on that person's name in the history books?
If that seems unlikely, wouldn't the very unlikelihood point towards some ulterior intervention?
That sounds like a cool time-murder-mystery quest. A motley crew of Bard, Rogue and Occultist historians with one Sleuth trying to work it out, at the behest of some super-powerful Wizard who can send them back in time to solve it.
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if Staunton Vhane was removed - the worldwound would have progressed less as Drezen wouldn't have fallem
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Nitro~Nina, that is quite a prospect. Would it have any geographical consequences?
I'd go with Razmir, personally.
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There's one enormous figure everyone's forgetting.
Sarenrae.
Kill her before she ascended to divinity and sealed away Rovagug....
You have a very different world. If at all.
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There's one enormous figure everyone's forgetting.
Sarenrae.
Kill her before she ascended to divinity and sealed away Rovagug....
You have a very different world.If at all.
No world left....
The wiki mentions her having been created, btw, not starting out mortal.
I have a hard time imagining a covert agent or powerful wizard going back through time... [Hey there, i'm coming to kill you and change time, *impales Sarenrae*] :)
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There's one enormous figure everyone's forgetting.
Sarenrae.
Kill her before she ascended to divinity and sealed away Rovagug....
You have a very different world.If at all.
No world left....
The wiki mentions her having been created, btw, not starting out mortal.
I have a hard time imagining a covert agent or powerful wizard going back through time... [Hey there, i'm coming to kill you and change time, *impales Sarenrae*] :)
Eh, any wizard powerful enough to travel through time like that is almost certainly capable of killing an Empyreal Lord, given enough time to prepare.
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Take out Old-Mage Jatembe, and humanity's return to dominance of the Inner Sea region after Earthfall seems a LOT less likely...
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Instead of removing the last Azlanti how about removing the first? Every tribe has a common ancestor who all members of the tribe are descendant from. Often this person may not be known to history, but they still exist. By eliminating the founder of the AzLanti nation all things related to it are also eliminated. That means no Savith does not kill Ydersius, Zura does not exist, nor do the rune lords. Most civilizations don’t exist. Whole racial strains of humans like Taladans and Chelaxians don’t exist. By eliminating some poor fisherman in prehistory you will change the world more than by eliminating any famous person.
As to Sarenrae I am not sure she qualifies. As a Emperal lord she is not strictly a Golarion historical figure, but rather an extra planar figure. Her origin is not actually on Golarion so even though she had a great influence on its history she is not really a Golarion.
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Urgathoa was a mortal on Golarion, right? Cut her out of the picture, BOOM, no more undead to worry about.
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Let's say one was able to use this insta-kill spell or whatever to off Rovagug before he really gets Rovaguging. There might not be a Golarion in the first place, since none of the deities would need to build a prison the size of a planet to contain him.
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Urgathoa was a mortal on Golarion, right? Cut her out of the picture, BOOM, no more undead to worry about.Eh, if not her it would've been someone else. Might've taken a little longer, but it still would've happened.
That's kind of the impression I get with a lot of these characters, personally.
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As we don't know how the Starfinder setting came to be, I'm a bit hesitant to remove anyone, because I fear that would possibly make Starfinder dissappear as well.
{. . .}
Wait . . . maybe that's WHY Golarion disappeared in the time leading up to Starfinder time -- somebody was sending back Terminators . . . .
Hellknights would be absent,
I'll note that this is most definitely not true.
The Hellknights were in existence and were spreading into a powerful force long before house Thrune came to rule.
Urgathoa was a mortal on Golarion, right? Cut her out of the picture, BOOM, no more undead to worry about.
Eh, if not her it would've been someone else. Might've taken a little longer, but it still would've happened.
That's kind of the impression I get with a lot of these characters, personally.
Hmmm... looks like,
Perhaps... tho wouldn't it be interesting if it didn't? That is, you kill baby Aroden and the history plays out the same, except some guy named Broden raises the Starstone...
What if, in fact, every effort to change history by killing a single person merely resulted in the same history happening but with a "find and replace" function on that person's name in the history books?
If that seems unlikely, wouldn't the very unlikelihood point towards some ulterior intervention?
Dosn't the "find/replace" happen constantly in PFS? each group believing they were the only ones to accomplish the deed?
... is gaining ever-greater consensus...
That said, if we're just going for "biggest impact" scenario, I'd remove the Abyss.
That may sound like cheating, but I don't believe it is.
I feel the Abyss is a "character" in and of itself, and has a "personality" of sorts that ultimately lends itself to being interpreted as a kind of "meta-entity" - at least in my reading of all the materials, so far.
If, on the other hand, we assume the Abyss is not a valid target, I'll go with Rovagug, the greatest of the qlippoth.
Then again, if we go with the (edited) premise:
As aEmperal lordsheis not strictly a Golarion historical figure, but rather an extra planar figure.Herorigin is not actually on Golarion so even thoughshehad a great influence on its historysheis not really a (sic) Golarion.
... that means it eliminates, say, Deskari, from the running as well, so I'd have to choose Geb. Though we haven't gotten much development from him, the concept that he could have never existed leans itself to Nex either having done ever-more-nutso things (thus entirely altering the face of Golarion) or Arazni never having been corrupted (one of the things I most wish to "correct" on a personal level).
Now, I will say, I'm going with the title of the thread, not so much the OP, the "... who would you pick, and why?" concept, rather than, "what <snip> could cause an interesting alternate timeline and situation?" concept.
Really, most selections would heavily differ, were I to go with the latter, and, frankly, the people I'd probably choose would be those least likely to be considered "relevant" to anything in modern Golarion. Who cares about the first Thrune? Nah, she's small-time.
Me? Maybe I'd go with Aspex the Even-Tongued. Taldor never splits (or its split is far bloodier) and literally everything about the Inner Sea is different.
Or what about Nethys? What would arcane magic look like without an insane god influencing it... and, even more, promoting it..., to this day? Or, if not him, what of Azghaad - that dude probably altered everything there is about the Inner Sea just by worshiping the mad god. It's very likely Nethys would never have amounted to much in Golarion (he might still be a big deal, elsewhere, though), and many alien influences would have failed to touch Golarion, later, due to the various weird pharaohs, and, really, civilization would not have recovered at all.
Or, you know, General Arnisant: this would alter the outcome of so many daggum ripple-events that it's impossible to guess what would actually happen. It is very likely the lich would have arisen, but that would have quickly slammed into awakening Rune Lords, later. (And don't be fooled. Though any one Runelord would likely not be a match - except, maybe, Sorshen and/or Xanderghul - it would cause... issues in his empire.) But just imagine, once Tar had to deal with a re-opened world-wound, "And all I have to show for it, is these lousy orcs!" Or, it's possible Iomedae would have pulled an Aroden and smote the cretin... but then we have to ponder whether or not he'd have two gods "under his belt" (or, at least, under the dirt ('cause they're dead)). Either way, it would be fascinating.
I suppose Geb would still be on the short list, but only because I think an unfettered Nex would do amazing (and insane) things to the world... or, bereft of a suitable challenger, he might just pack up and leave. But really, he's the only "A-lister" I'd remove, in all likelihood.
This list goes on for a while, and I proooooooobably don't want to list it all out, right now (and I can only imagine you guys want to come up with your own).
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Take out Old-Mage Jatembe, and humanity's return to dominance of the Inner Sea region after Earthfall seems a LOT less likely...
NO! NO! NO!
YOU TAKE THAT BACK! YOU TAKE THAT BACK RIGHT NOW YOU SICK-!
<please hold as we experience technical difficulties>
*Ahem*
Yes, well.
>.>
Nothing.
I'd remove Acavna and enjoy the fireworks.
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There's one enormous figure everyone's forgetting.
Sarenrae.
Kill her before she ascended to divinity and sealed away Rovagug....
You have a very different world.If at all.
No world left....
The wiki mentions her having been created, btw, not starting out mortal.
I have a hard time imagining a covert agent or powerful wizard going back through time... [Hey there, i'm coming to kill you and change time, *impales Sarenrae*] :)
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Let's say one was able to use this insta-kill spell or whatever to off Rovagug before he really gets Rovaguging. There might not be a Golarion in the first place, since none of the deities would need to build a prison the size of a planet to contain him.
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Instead of removing the last Azlanti how about removing the first? Every tribe has a common ancestor who all members of the tribe are descendant from. Often this person may not be known to history, but they still exist. By eliminating the founder of the AzLanti nation all things related to it are also eliminated. That means no Savith does not kill Ydersius, Zura does not exist, nor do the rune lords. Most civilizations don’t exist. Whole racial strains of humans like Taladans and Chelaxians don’t exist. By eliminating some poor fisherman in prehistory you will change the world more than by eliminating any famous person.
As to Sarenrae I am not sure she qualifies. As a Emperal lord she is not strictly a Golarion historical figure, but rather an extra planar figure. Her origin is not actually on Golarion so even though she had a great influence on its history she is not really a Golarion.
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i would remove tiamat as they are a pathetic and lesser version of the true tiamat
The "problem"* with all of these (except that last one) is not that they are bad ideas, per se, but rather that they end up with a singular result: there is nothing that could be recognized as Golarion.
While it's a fine and important distinction to make, "A world that looks entirely different and has a different name." and "A lack of world entirely." is a little too much change for us to ever call it "Golarion." One way or the other, it would never have gotten there.
Similarly,
Take out Old-Mage Jatembe, and humanity's return to dominance of the Inner Sea region after Earthfall seems a LOT less likely...
If you time-murdered Savith, the consequences could be very widespread indeed. All of Garund might still be a serpentfolk haven. With their god Ydersius still intact and powerful, they would not have descended into degeneracy, which means they might even have developed the magic to alter Golarion's climate, rendering more of the northerly climes warm and conducive to colonization. It is conceivable that humanity would have fallen further from its Azlanti heyday and be nothing more than nigh-feral pests.
Realistically, probably Aroden. That means no Iomedae, Cayden Cailean or Norgober, as well as no Absalom, which means no Society, right? All those lives saved, now lost. All those Paladins, Bards and Slayers who never got their calling... All those illegitimate children borne of Cayden-induced intoxication who never got to exist...
... would all very likely eliminate the world as we know it, but some vague semblance may still be inferred, or even arise, only with a more brutal and subdued element. This is much more likely to result in a much harder, harsher Golarion, and it might not be recognizable, but the preponderance of APs may still be able to take place mostly-as-written in their local geographies, even under these paradigms, if (and only if) there were enough "similar" elements in the mix. that said, the last one, especially, is basically a probable doom to the setting as we know it.
(Note: you can easily "write out" various elements of the setting. That's not the point. The point is, in-world, without the shaping influences it has, there would be no semblance of similarity at all. Nothing to hang the conceit of "Golarion" onto. This is all fine and good, and are excellent ideas for "radical change" style goals, but, much like my, "This would be my preference" statements, this would just kind of end Golarion as a setting, according to its own history... unleeeeesssssss...)
EDIT: added an example I'd missed the first time. Also:
* It's not really a "problem" at all, but rather, by the point these take place, we're just talking about a different setting. Maybe it would be called the "Triox" setting... :D
What if, in fact, every effort to change history by killing a single person merely resulted in the same history happening but with a "find and replace" function on that person's name in the history books?
DAGGUMMIT, QUIBBLEMUCH~! DAGGUM YOU AND YOUR INVULNERABLE SETTIIIIINNGGGGSSSSSSS~! I'LL GET YOU NEXT TIIIIIIMMME, Q-MAN~! NNNNNNEEEEEEEEXXXXXXXTTTTT TIIIIIIIIMMMMMMEEEEEE~!
*shakes fist*
(For the record, this is a great thread, and I'm interested in everyone's ideas. Neat!)
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Tacticslion..... might you be a writer? Such effort into one wall of text :P
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Chyrone wrote:
Hellknights would be absent,
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I'll note that this is most definitely not true.
The Hellknights were in existence and were spreading into a powerful force long before house Thrune came to rule.
Let me rephrase then. :)
They'd 'probably' be less of a presence in altered timeline Cheliax.
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In theory, removing the Azlanti general Krahnaliara Lac Suhn could prevent the fall of the serpentfolk empire based out of Sesseghishoss, at least until Earthfall happened centuries later. That could have all kinds of consequences, probably interfering with the rise of ancient Thassilon and several other nations.
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I'd kill the very first elf. Then Golarion would be as it should be - ruled by Dwarves!!!
Tacticslion..... might you be a writer? Such effort into one wall of text :P
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Chyrone wrote:
Hellknights would be absent,
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I'll note that this is most definitely not true.
The Hellknights were in existence and were spreading into a powerful force long before house Thrune came to rule.Let me rephrase then. :)
They'd 'probably' be less of a presence in altered timeline Cheliax.
I totally see what you're saying, and would suggest you could be correct, certainly, I will also suggest that it is neither a given, nor even the most likely outcome.
Consider this: in the civil war that was devouring Cheliax, no one had the military forces to stop the slaughter. No one. But it was the Hellknights who decisively entered the fray and had the personal power to influence the whole of the war in Thrune's favor (much as they were loathe to do so, at the time; and they were loathe to do so), because not only were there several orders by then, but those orders were powerful and had many adherents.
So important were they at that point in history, and so important to Thrune's victory that the first Thrune offered the lichtor of the Order of the Scourge a position as the nation's official "person in charge of all things military" and to make the Hellknights THE thing.
It is worth noting, here, that she was refused to her face, and she was so shocked and ticked off, she barely avoided demanding their execution (implied that she was nervous about them turning on her), so the 'Scourge built a citadel just so they could watch her/keep her worst excesses in check.
Now, there were several new orders founded thereafter, on Thrune's dime, but those orders are all no where near as important to the over-all existence or relative power of the Hellknights as one might assume; the over-all organization would likely be fine without Thrune, albeit I do agree they'd look different.
See, the Hellknights didn't even originally have anything to do with Hell; it wasn't until Dundel Ruel's obsessive search for his son's soul (leading to that man's eventual vanishing) that the Orders broadly got their devilish association; the name was a mere insult that was instead turned into a badge of pride.
While I do suspect the whole thing was used (probably partially opportunistically, though he'd gladly take credit) by Asjerk to gain powerful influence over the place, I don't see Thrune as the cause for the significance of the Hellknights. I would suggest that maybe the Order in Varisia and the River Kingdoms might not exist, but otherwise things would generally stand, unless someone had been stupid enough to attack the Hellknights in the Civil War, which would just erase them from the map of Cheliax under whoever it would be that won.
And, uh, if you didn't know that I cast Wall of Text before this... sorry!
I'd kill the very first elf. Then Golarion would be as it should be - ruled by Dwarves!!!
You know, depending on your *TOTALLY WIOD SPECULATION*, that might not be true at all.
Besides, without the elves having previously claimed huge swaths of places, it seems like humans might be even more dominant, so by the time the dwarves dug up, they would have accidentally been trespassing invaders and thus violating their lawful good tenets and thus losing all those Paladins... wait, oh, carp, I mentioned Paladins falling Rrrrruuuuuuunnnnnn~!
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I'd kill the very first elf. Then Golarion would be as it should be - ruled by Dwarves!!!You know, depending on your *TOTALLY WIOD SPECULATION*, that might not be true at all.
Besides, without the elves having previously claimed huge swaths of places, it seems like humans might be even more dominant, so by the time the dwarves dug up, they would have accidentally been trespassing invaders and thus violating their lawful good tenets and thus losing all those Paladins... wait, oh, carp, I mentioned Paladins falling Rrrrruuuuuuunnnnnn~!
Would they fall up or down though, seeing as how it'd be the end of the Quest for Sky and all.
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Hellknights would be absent,I'll note that this is most definitely not true.
The Hellknights were in existence and were spreading into a powerful force long before house Thrune came to rule.
Of course, details of the various orders would definitely be different in interesting ways.
This is definitive.
I'd imagine the Order of the Scourge would take a much stronger hand (if incidentally) in shaping the form of the subsequent orders. Either way, it'd be cool.
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Let's give this a go.
I'll kill Aroden retroactively, and cover up all the evidence. I'll mess up all those prophecies, too, to keep people guessing. Let's see what happens!
Edit: I just got back to the present and uh, whoops. Sorry guys.
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David Knott,
Which particular orders were you thinking of?
That book burning order would seem like a candidate to be absent, if Thrune wasn't in power, for one.
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Look for reducing or eliminating the role of Asmodeus and other devils. For example, the Order of the Gate might focus on summoning archons rather than devils. The Order of the Godclaw might be redundant, or its pantheon might leave out Asmodeus.
Of course, the initiation rite would still involve fighting a devil in single combat.
David Knott,
Which particular orders were you thinking of?
That book burning order would seem like a candidate to be absent, if Thrune wasn't in power, for one.
"Order of the Wrack" - though it was (sort of) the "original" order (Order of the Scourge being the second), it was kind-of disbanded, kind-of destroyed with the disappearance of Ruel (the "original Hell Knight" as it were - a vigilante who led his followers on a crusade to assist in imposing order on a city wracked with anarchy and death from the influence of a demon cult; even some of the priests of Aroden had been influenced, and so there was no one to turn to), and the blazing fire that destroyed the original citadel. It was, much, much, much later, "reestablished" by House Thrune along with several others (I believe).
The new one definitely wouldn't exist - that's for sure.
It is likely, however, that the Hellknights would still be expanding, just in different capacities, as that is how they've operated since pretty much the first: Ruel's best buddy established the Order of the Scourge while Ruel was alive, and the two were considered equals; others were happening at the time Ruel disappeared.
EDIT: added quote for ninja!
Look for reducing or eliminating the role of Asmodeus and other devils. For example, the Order of the Gate might focus on summoning archons rather than devils. The Order of the Godclaw might be redundant, or its pantheon might leave out Asmodeus.
Of course, the initiation rite would still involve fighting a devil in single combat.
This is definitely true.
Asmug was working on attempting the corruption fairly early on, but the various orders were rather resistant to it, until Thrune took power and created some orders hypothetically loyal to it. That said, the Hellknights are loyal to a unified Cheliax, and they've proven willing to eradicate their own in the case of heresy (which, choosing Thrune over Order will always be heresy).
I suspect the Godclaw might not eliminate Asmodeus, but it would probably shy away from him as a primary patron, and may even incorporate deities like Irori or Iomedae more - or maybe even Erastil, hard as that may be to believe now.
I suspect the 'Gate would still not be a squeaky clean order - their specialty, however, would probably be axiomites and inevitables, rather than devils. They'd still summon devils, of course, because those are useful in pushing law onto free will, but they'd likely temper that with archons.
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Any figures/organizations with ambitions of domination, that would benefit from a time-assassination?
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well any of the peeps who get frozen in time/locked away and someone tries to get them out and the PCs have to stop them as an AP, those would make almost no difference as the PCs stops them in most (if not all campaigns)