The Gap


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Because I cannot wait until August to find out the answers, I wanted to speculate and question the details of the Gap. An undisclosed period of time where the entire universe has amnesia and something went down. While I won't debate what happened (yet), I wonder what the initial events following the Gap were.

For instance, was the Gap a total and complete amnesiac event? Did people forget their spouses, their jobs, even their names? Did entire political landscape have to be rewritten right then and there because no one could remember what it was like before? Is it possible that some person awoke to find themselves Kings because their clothes were the best in the group? Did wizards (technomagi) have to learn spells from scratch, scientist rediscover the laws of the universe and more? Were languages suddenly forgotten?

Or did people still have a vague idea? Maybe they knew how to fly a ship but no knowledge of when they learned. A dozen alien languages rattling in their heads. A connection to the person in the room with them.

Or is it just a loss of history. Full knowledge of their skills, capabilities and relations but a total lack of knowledge how they arrived in their current situation?


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Nope, can't say I shop at The Gap.


I believe that the gap was a targeted though massive scale effect that specifically erased something from the multiverse. i expect that to be some kind of super show down of the gods, remember that Golarion is gone and Golarion is at its heart a prison for something the gods themselves weren't able to kill. So the entire period of the gap is likely the events that lead up to the prison breaking and the conflict to save existence from non-existance and either to stop it from happening again it was erased or because they pulled some godly shenanigans to hide the evil away or pocket universe everything else to save it. Either way, i think the Gap is targeted to specific events and times. You would wake up the next day after the Gap and know who you are and when your birthday is and all the skills you knew but maybe not how you learned the skills, the battles you fought to earn those scars, that kind of thing. what interests me is the idea of things like a diary, are there logs out there from go from "June 8, 1237" and then the next entry is "January 3rd, 39,886"? How are pre-gap artifacts handled? i could see there being a huge market for ancient antiquities like that.

Think about how massive the collapse would have been universe wide if people forgot everything they knew their whole lives, no knowledge of relations, no skills, no nothing. Almost everyone would die in short order because they would have to literally re-invent the wheel while working within the ruins of cities and villages that relied on a complex infrastructure to keep basic necessities flowing.


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I had a great theory I developed before I fell asleep last night but, ironically, I seem to be experiencing a bit of a gap myself.


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Archmage Variel wrote:
I had a great theory I developed before I fell asleep last night but, ironically, I seem to be experiencing a bit of a gap myself.

The Gap is the result of Good getting the ultimate triumph over Evil and the final defeat of Rovagug but in the ensuing all century long victory party (insisted upon by Cayden Cailean) the universe suffered a collective black out and cant remember what happened. coincidentally the first few decades after the Gap progressed like a much more epic retelling of "Dude, where's my car?"


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Torbyne wrote:
Think about how massive the collapse would have been universe wide if people forgot everything they knew their whole lives, no knowledge of relations, no skills, no nothing. Almost everyone would die in short order because they would have to literally re-invent the wheel while working within the ruins of cities and villages that relied on a complex infrastructure to keep basic necessities flowing.

If the Gap was an act of the gods, they would not necessarily have to impose it exactly at the end of the period about which they wish to suppress information -- especially if they were able to arrange things so that very few people were obsessed with events during that period. For example, they could wait until 50 or so years after the end of the time period that they want to suppress and then wipe out all memory and records from 350 to 50 years ago. The only people who would lose their sanity and ability to function would be scholars who obsessively studied some part of that period of time -- most other people over the age of 50 would just have annoying gaps in their memories.

As to why they would do that -- Maybe certain events occurred that it was important that mortals not know about. Initially, few did, so they only had to wipe the memories of the handful of mortals who stumbled onto the truth. Unfortunately, at some point some seemingly innocuous bits of information become common knowledge -- but once these bits of information are put together, it is all too easy to piece together whatever it is that humanity was not meant to know. Nothing short of the Gap can put the genie back in the bottle at that point.


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I just had a thought about what the gods might have wanted to suppress: The invention of time travel. It is safe to assume that time travel is not a thing in Starfinder, as it would mess up a lot of things and enable mortals to do things that even the gods cannot do. Ensuring that time travel can never be invented would be a very high priority for the gods of this setting.


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The Castrovel Science Directorate has determined that time travel is impossible...


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Matthew Shelton wrote:
The Castrovel Science Directorate has determined that time travel is impossible...

The time of the Gap starts and ends at the boundary of a time loop. As one travels throughout reality fluctuations in the laws of physics and magic cause time abberations in regional time flows and thus the differences in time knowledge in the gap. The loop was caused by a group of Rovagug cultists and culminated with the annihilation of existence as we know it.

The gods are mostly outside time due to their natures and as such realized that with the destruction of existence they would have no worshipers to continue to validate their existence and as such they themselves WOULD cease to exist despite not being affected by time itself.

Together the gods constructed a divine machine that needed an eternal power source so they broke open Rovagug's prison (destroying Golarion) long enough to shackle him to the divine device which then put the missing years into a sort of stasis slightly out of phase with the normal universe a moment before the final act that would have destroyed all of existence, sealing it with a knowledge lock.

That lock went reality wide. Should any non divine entity ever actually find out the reason for the need for Gap, the knowledge would then open the lock (which is manifested in reality as Absalom Station), releasing not only Rovagug from the machine but allowing the final act of existence to happen and the universe to be annihilated.


There was an anime movie I really liked called "A Wind Named Amnesia" I would like to think that something similar happened to Golarion.

Shadow Lodge

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Well, now that the book's out we've got a bit more information.
* It's several thousand years long. (I thought I read 3000 somewhere, but can't find it now)
* It's got fuzzy boarders to it by a few hundred years.
* It was bad news all around for years after it "finished".

(The tricky one)
* It might start only a few centuries from pathfinder "now". It references that Absalom Reckoning was used for "nearly 5 millennia". As it is currently 4717, that leaves two options. Either The Gap starts in less than 300 years, or some OTHER event happens in about 300 years that resets the calendar. If the latter is the case, we still have no benchmark for when the Gap starts, but it certainly heralds something major happening.


Gilfalas wrote:
Matthew Shelton wrote:
The Castrovel Science Directorate has determined that time travel is impossible...

The time of the Gap starts and ends at the boundary of a time loop. As one travels throughout reality fluctuations in the laws of physics and magic cause time abberations in regional time flows and thus the differences in time knowledge in the gap. The loop was caused by a group of Rovagug cultists and culminated with the annihilation of existence as we know it.

The gods are mostly outside time due to their natures and as such realized that with the destruction of existence they would have no worshipers to continue to validate their existence and as such they themselves WOULD cease to exist despite not being affected by time itself.

Together the gods constructed a divine machine that needed an eternal power source so they broke open Rovagug's prison (destroying Golarion) long enough to shackle him to the divine device which then put the missing years into a sort of stasis slightly out of phase with the normal universe a moment before the final act that would have destroyed all of existence, sealing it with a knowledge lock.

That lock went reality wide. Should any non divine entity ever actually find out the reason for the need for Gap, the knowledge would then open the lock (which is manifested in reality as Absalom Station), releasing not only Rovagug from the machine but allowing the final act of existence to happen and the universe to be annihilated.

I really like this. It hurts my brain a little but I like it. But it is said that Torag is now watching over or standing guard over golarian as if were going to be given back or something is coming to find that planet. Like WHY Torag? Why the Dwarven god? Why didn't more stay? Iomedae Who grew up there, or someone like that? He is the god of protection so I am not surprised. Just a few thoughts that I thought of.

Shadow Lodge

Haven't heard anything from Erastil. Wouldn't be surprised if he stayed behind to keep people off his lawn. On the other hand, I could see him being popular with small colonies.


I suspect it has something to do with the Aboleths.


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I wonder what the Gap looked like?

I mean, assuming that the speed of light works the same as in our universe (and it does mention "light speed"), then it should be possible to build a large telescope array about 300 light years away from the Pact Worlds system and watch as Golarion vanishes.


I wonder if it wasn't just a way for the creators (who I love) to go ahead and just say 'yeah i'm not writing 4000 years of history here and we can release more on it later'? My money is on aboleths and other aberrations. I wonder too if it doesn't wind up having something to do with magic returning to the mana wastes and those star portals up in the north west of Golarion?

Acquisitives

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thistledown wrote:


* It might start only a few centuries from pathfinder "now". It references that Absalom Reckoning was used for "nearly 5 millennia". As it is currently 4717, that leaves two options. Either The Gap starts in less than 300 years, or some OTHER event happens in about 300 years that resets the calendar. If the latter is the case, we still have no benchmark for when the Gap starts, but it certainly heralds something major happening.

On the scale of 5 millennia 4500 years is "nearly."

My personal pet theory is that the Gap perfectly corresponds with the period that prophecy stops working, and that both are caused by the same thing. Notice in the book that Pharasma is still listed as the god of prophecy, but nowhere does it mention that prophecy doesn't work. Maybe that's because to the records of SF it never stopped working. (Cause no one can remember that time period)

That is to say all of Pathfinder is during the Gap.

Shadow Lodge

Kyron "Death Knell" Shess wrote:
thistledown wrote:


* It might start only a few centuries from pathfinder "now". It references that Absalom Reckoning was used for "nearly 5 millennia". As it is currently 4717, that leaves two options. Either The Gap starts in less than 300 years, or some OTHER event happens in about 300 years that resets the calendar. If the latter is the case, we still have no benchmark for when the Gap starts, but it certainly heralds something major happening.

On the scale of 5 millennia 4500 years is "nearly."

My personal pet theory is that the Gap perfectly corresponds with the period that prophecy stops working, and that both are caused by the same thing. Notice in the book that Pharasma is still listed as the god of prophecy, but nowhere does it mention that prophecy doesn't work. Maybe that's because to the records of SF it never stopped working. (Cause no one can remember that time period)

That is to say all of Pathfinder is during the Gap.

Hmm. I like where you're going with this.


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I guess what we need is the latest AR date that is known in the Starfinder era -- we could conclude that the Gap began soon after that date. Note that there are vague legends about various undated events during the Gap, so an exact known date is important for this purpose.

Acquisitives

David knott 242 wrote:

I guess what we need is the latest AR date that is known in the Starfinder era -- we could conclude that the Gap began soon after that date. Note that there are vague legends about various undated events during the Gap, so an exact known date is important for this purpose.

Unfortunately that doesn't work as the Gap is known to have started/ended at different times in different places and to have skipped certain times. Which could mean that


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It would tell us when the Gap started on Golarion, though.


What if the Gap started because of out of control Drift usage, and so to forestall the omnipocalypse the God's universally sanctioned the erasure of the history of Drift usage, then used The Starstone to Stabilize the Drift. Absalom Station was built around it to ensure a flow of souls through it to power the stabilizing effect (it's like a watermill). 3 years later, the Drift is safe to use freely, so Triune "emerges" and "invents" Drift engines, and surreptitiously monitors and adjusts Drift engine usage. The intensity of the drift beacon of Absalom Station is intentional: it makes the perfect hub for interstellar civilization, therefore residents therefore deaths therefore power to the Starstone Stabilizer.

But that's just a theory.


Still reading the CRB, so I haven't formulated a theory yet, but in general, I suspect this is going to be Starfinder's version of Aroden: lots of speculation, but never an official word from Paizo on what happened.


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The Gap started because an upstart wizard accidentally started a fire in the library of the Akashic Record.


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Jürgen Hubert wrote:

I wonder what the Gap looked like?

I mean, assuming that the speed of light works the same as in our universe (and it does mention "light speed"), then it should be possible to build a large telescope array about 300 light years away from the Pact Worlds system and watch as Golarion vanishes.

good call on this one!

That reminds me of a scene in the Starship's Mage series of books. (Good read btw)


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Jürgen Hubert wrote:

I wonder what the Gap looked like?

I mean, assuming that the speed of light works the same as in our universe (and it does mention "light speed"), then it should be possible to build a large telescope array about 300 light years away from the Pact Worlds system and watch as Golarion vanishes.

We know the gap ended about 300 years ago, but we actually don't know when Golarion vanished. So it could have vanished 1300 years ago. The Gap affects actual written and recorded information, so I could see a "glitch in the light" or the telescope if you tried to pull that particular idea.

Acquisitives

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Last week, I realized that the Gap is more pernicious and terrible than it has been portrayed. When I first read the Starfinder rulebook, I thought... oh, ok, there's this Gap, but people know what happened before. But thinking more about it... well... I realized that it's bigger.

IRL our history is copied over and over again - we don't have original copies of say... Herodotus or the Chinese chroniclers. These primary sources are how we know ancient history. Instead, we have copies upon copies upon copies of their work.

The Gap, and all the writings made during it, are now either gibberish or erased. So those copies are also gibberish. Which means that the history not only of the Gap, but also most of the pre-Gap histories are also gibberish.

It's this second part which I want to draw attention to. Unless it was something written down which survived the millennia of the Gap - say it was written down in stone or put into a hard copy document which itself survived the ages of the Gap - it's totally lost.

Things which may have survived a theoretical computer age - say on Verces - are at similar risk. A software upgrade, a transfer to a new storage medium, anything stored on any conceivable computer which was updated during the Gap while the primary source material was lost/destroyed (see above)... all those things are lost as well.

Considering that enormous amount of time - several thousand years at least - there's probably almost nothing remaining of pre-Gap history remaining in the Pact Worlds.

Essentially, the present day Pact Worlds would have to rely either on ancient papyri/tomes or erosion worn monuments to piece together pre-Gap historia. (I'm planning a trip to Egypt)


I don't think it works that way. A book published one year before the gap ended that was a history of events that occurred before the gap started should have survived intact. It was only data/memories that directly covered the missing years that was excised.

If our gap was from 100 BC to 2016 AD, a history of the Peloponnesian War published in 1995 would be missing any comparisons to modern historical events, and perhaps the title page would be missing the company that published it, the date, and the name of the city it was published in (unless it was Jerusalem or Rome or a similar preexisting city, perhaps), but the details of the war itself would survive.


At least the tech level wasn't reset. It took over a thousand years for the western world to get back everything that was lost with Rome (two steps away from steam power by 100 CE). History's nice and all, but the present is doing pretty darn well, all things considered.


Yakman wrote:


The Gap, and all the writings made during it, are now either gibberish or erased. So those copies are also gibberish. Which means that the history not only of the Gap, but also most of the pre-Gap histories are also gibberish.

It's worse than that. Sometimes it's gibberish, but sometimes the record are still intact, but are actively contradictory.

The bad part is that this can happen in the [i]same[/] book/file. The index might be written in a different language and chapter titles might refer to an entirely different sequence of events than the actual body of the text.

An image might be blurry, or there might be two images of 'so and so the great', but they're entirely different races.


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Pre-Gap history is surprisingly accurate, in regard to events that pre-date any standard Pathfinder campaign set on Golarion. For example, the people of the Pact Worlds actually had a pretty good idea who the Azlanti were even before they actually met them.

And the pre-Gap information does let them infer that certain things must have happened during the Gap, but not how or when. They know exactly when Aroden died (since he died before the Gap; but they do not know how long ago that date was), but they only know that the disappearances of Torag and Rovagug must have happened during the Gap.


Yeah, I would say the circumstantial evidence is very strong, that the Gap did *not* erase Gap-era records of pre-Gap events. Hell, it might not have even erased everything that was originated in the Gap, if the topic had nothing to do with history and events ( ie, a mathematical treatise on probability theory written a thousand years before the Gap ended, might only have the names redacted, not the math ).


Yakman wrote:

Last week, I realized that the Gap is more pernicious and terrible than it has been portrayed. When I first read the Starfinder rulebook, I thought... oh, ok, there's this Gap, but people know what happened before. But thinking more about it... well... I realized that it's bigger.

IRL our history is copied over and over again - we don't have original copies of say... Herodotus or the Chinese chroniclers. These primary sources are how we know ancient history. Instead, we have copies upon copies upon copies of their work.

The Gap, and all the writings made during it, are now either gibberish or erased. So those copies are also gibberish. Which means that the history not only of the Gap, but also most of the pre-Gap histories are also gibberish.

It's this second part which I want to draw attention to. Unless it was something written down which survived the millennia of the Gap - say it was written down in stone or put into a hard copy document which itself survived the ages of the Gap - it's totally lost.

Things which may have survived a theoretical computer age - say on Verces - are at similar risk. A software upgrade, a transfer to a new storage medium, anything stored on any conceivable computer which was updated during the Gap while the primary source material was lost/destroyed (see above)... all those things are lost as well.

Considering that enormous amount of time - several thousand years at least - there's probably almost nothing remaining of pre-Gap history remaining in the Pact Worlds.

Essentially, the present day Pact Worlds would have to rely either on ancient papyri/tomes or erosion worn monuments to piece together pre-Gap historia. (I'm planning a trip to Egypt)

I hadn't thought of this either. I think you're right (although Pre-Gap times had preservation techniques/stasis fields/etcetera fuelled by magic so records can plausibly last longer than in the real world).

For me the most intriguing thing is the memories of those beings who were alive pre-Gap, during the gap and now post-Gap. I wonder how they experience their oldest memories?

Acquisitives

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Steve Geddes wrote:
Yakman wrote:

Last week, I realized that the Gap is more pernicious and terrible than it has been portrayed. When I first read the Starfinder rulebook, I thought... oh, ok, there's this Gap, but people know what happened before. But thinking more about it... well... I realized that it's bigger.

IRL our history is copied over and over again - we don't have original copies of say... Herodotus or the Chinese chroniclers. These primary sources are how we know ancient history. Instead, we have copies upon copies upon copies of their work.

The Gap, and all the writings made during it, are now either gibberish or erased. So those copies are also gibberish. Which means that the history not only of the Gap, but also most of the pre-Gap histories are also gibberish.

It's this second part which I want to draw attention to. Unless it was something written down which survived the millennia of the Gap - say it was written down in stone or put into a hard copy document which itself survived the ages of the Gap - it's totally lost.

Things which may have survived a theoretical computer age - say on Verces - are at similar risk. A software upgrade, a transfer to a new storage medium, anything stored on any conceivable computer which was updated during the Gap while the primary source material was lost/destroyed (see above)... all those things are lost as well.

Considering that enormous amount of time - several thousand years at least - there's probably almost nothing remaining of pre-Gap history remaining in the Pact Worlds.

Essentially, the present day Pact Worlds would have to rely either on ancient papyri/tomes or erosion worn monuments to piece together pre-Gap historia. (I'm planning a trip to Egypt)

I hadn't thought of this either. I think you're right (although Pre-Gap times had preservation techniques/stasis fields/etcetera fuelled by magic so records can plausibly last longer than in the real world).

For me the most intriguing thing is the memories of those beings who were alive...

dunno about pre-Gap (although there is a lich on eox who claims to have been a going concern even back then) but my current character is a half-elf whose mother was alive when the Gap ended.

She was just walking along and *poof*. Now she's ... a new person, really. Yeah, she knows she's got parents and skills, and stuff ... but she's got no memory of them. Imagine having parents, but not remembering anything about growing up. It's just a data point.

As the book says, there was a massive existential crisis amongst people who suddenly lost all their history. Now, if you are anyone other than an elf, well... you aren't suiting up for the starfinders. But probably half of the elves (or more) alive in the present day were alive when the Gap ended. Those people are still going along, in their weird, creepy elven way of remembrancing the past... but there isn't one.

What would that look like? I'm guessing that elves would cling to each other in these weird grief circles doing weird elven catharsis rituals or falling into total abandonment and madness ... and considering that it's elves, even centuries later, they'd still be doing it.

I just happened to be thinking about a semi-considered homebrew I had drafted a few things on which mashed Spelljammer with Planescape, and I realized... oh my... IT'S THE BLEAK CABAL.

So I dug up my old Planescape stuff, and yup. It's right there. So in my head canon, the Bleak Cabal is a going concern on Castrovel and other elven places. Nothing really matters if everything can change in an instant. There are no constants, truly. You just gotta get by and watch out for each other.

Acquisitives

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Metaphysician wrote:
Yeah, I would say the circumstantial evidence is very strong, that the Gap did *not* erase Gap-era records of pre-Gap events. Hell, it might not have even erased everything that was originated in the Gap, if the topic had nothing to do with history and events ( ie, a mathematical treatise on probability theory written a thousand years before the Gap ended, might only have the names redacted, not the math ).

but all the experimental data to prove it - were such experiments conducted - would have been rendered useless.

So let's say you exam a Gap-era a statistical study of space ducks migrating between Akiton and Triaxes.

And you might have a chart of the results. And you might know what was being measured, say... their space duck migration route distance... and that it was about space ducks. You might have the number of space ducks and other characteristics thereof.

But you might not have say... when this was conducted. Or the how. And it might say that the space ducks go between Akiton and Triaxes but maybe the distances are gibberish because that would point to when the study was conducted. Or maybe you do have the distances... but they don't quite make sense considering what we know about the orbits of the two worlds.

Radiant Oath

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Koujow wrote:
Because I cannot wait until August to find out the answers

Why? What's happening in August?


Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
Koujow wrote:
Because I cannot wait until August to find out the answers
Why? What's happening in August?

I think SF came out in August 2017, and the thread started in February 2017.

Radiant Oath

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Oh. Thread necromancy. Okay.


Back on the topic though, an idea i came up with today is that the Drift is what caused the gap. Dead Suns showed that it can take a bite out of any plane when someone jumps and in PF the Plane of Time is a thing referenced in multiple places.

If one of the original Drift jumps took a bite out of the Plane of Time, who is to say that taking that bite wouldn't redact the entire affected space of time out of history? After that point time just had to continue going from where it was with that bit missing from existence, hence the "gap" in time.

Acquisitives

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Hazrond wrote:

Back on the topic though, an idea i came up with today is that the Drift is what caused the gap. Dead Suns showed that it can take a bite out of any plane when someone jumps and in PF the Plane of Time is a thing referenced in multiple places.

If one of the original Drift jumps took a bite out of the Plane of Time, who is to say that taking that bite wouldn't redact the entire affected space of time out of history? After that point time just had to continue going from where it was with that bit missing from existence, hence the "gap" in time.

it's an interesting theory.

it might be what enables there to be 'time' in the Drift, and considering space-time it might also be what enables ships with Drift engines to cross such vast differences.

if so... then here's a question - is that chunk of the Plane of Time finite?

Darn. That could be a frigging awesome idea for a campaign.

Shadow Lodge

I'm running a home game this weekend that's set during the gap. It's a one-shot for a bunch of people who don't really know Starfinder or Pathfinder that well, so I'm playing a bit loose with the specifics of canon, but here's how I'm dealing with the gap.

Rovagug's finally got clever clerics. Mainly, they've learned to be subtle. Instead of the maniac charging down the street, they hide their plans and slowly build up a cult. Most of the members don't realize who they're dealing with until indoctrination happens, and then it's too late. Think a wider-scope version of the Peggies from Far Cry 5. I'm calling them the Guggies.

Meanwhile the Guggies get a hold of a mystical virus. It is communicable through mental thought (specifics not needed). Guggies made themselves immune somehow, then released it planet wide. The effects are somewhat similar to the PAX of Serenity. People loose the ability to create or take initiative. People go along in autopilot, but it's a lot easier to destroy everything when people stop making things. Curing them is possible, but time consuming and inefficient.

Golarion gets quarantined. Even outsiders are susceptible to the virus, so anything less than a true god has to stay away.

Then the loophole that lets me run a game. People from other universes (franchises) are immune to the plague. Groetus collects a team from other franchises to do some work for him. In a more canon setting, just have some natives who are naturally immune somehow.

Their job is to build abasalom station and get it into orbit before Rovagug breaks out. More to the point, before the Guggies kill them all. They do some fights, collect data and resources, and get it launched, leaving the Guggies behind on the planet. Rovagug eventually gets out and starts his thing. End of my game, but...

The gods fight over the carcass of Golarion for a while, and to keep the quarantine, have to relocate it. A while later (few hundred years) the quarantine fails anyways. The virus blows multiverse wide. But it's stored in memory. So, in order to purge the virus everywhere at once, the gods institute a galaxy wide memory wipe. Reformat the entire partition. And a ways earlier so everything that leads to the virus is also erased.

Second Seekers (Luwazi Elsebo)

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"I don't want to point fingers, but we all know this was the humans. You're fine individuals, but you get really wonky when you get in groups. Its like, all of a sudden you follow the most charismatic one instead of the smart one. I'm sorry about ya'lls planet but from now on you're allowed to be in groups of ten OR have a wrench, not both. "

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