curious on your normal ranged attack how are you doing +18
my addition only got 17 with out pointblank
2 enhancement
4 str
8 deadly aim
3 from weapon training
wheres that last +1 coming from
on your lvl 12 build you have bracers of archery only the greater ones give a bonus to damage, the build says you have lesser ones maybe thats it and its a accident?
also im not 100% sure how you got that damage for the melee attack can you post your calculations?
also id suggest you ditch the O-yoroi for a mithril chain shirt that armor check penalty from the O-yoroi is gonna hurt some of your skills
or go for your real end game armor celesial armor +8 dex bonus - 2 check penalty and a sweet +9 ac
and who doesnt love a free cast of fly 1/day
curious on your normal ranged attack how are you doing +18
my addition only got 17 with out pointblank2 enhancement
4 str
8 deadly aim
3 from weapon trainingwheres that last +1 coming from
on your lvl 12 build you have bracers of archery only the greater ones give a bonus to damage, the build says you have lesser ones maybe thats it and its a accident?
+4 from Weapon Training. +2 from levels, +2 from Gloves.
also id suggest you ditch the O-yoroi for a mithril chain shirt that armor check penalty from the O-yoroi is gonna hurt some of your skills
I have Armor Training 3 and magical O-Yoroi, that's only a -2 ACP.
Thanks to Empty Quiver Style he can apply stuff that normally only applies to ranged attacks(Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, etc) to melee attacks. This includes Deadly Aim, and explains some of the damage at least.
Are you assuming that rapid shot applies to your melee attacks? I'm like 100% percent sure that's a nono...
Also there's a post in rules questions which clarifies that with the weapon styles which allow you to treat a weapon as a mace the weapon is actually a mace with all the implications that brings...
PFS Legal Empty Quiver Flexibility (Combat)
Source Weapon Master's Handbook pg. 14
You can apply your ranged fighting feats to melee attacks.
Prerequisites: Empty Quiver Style, Rapid Shot, Stabbing Shot(APG), Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon.
Benefit: While using Empty Quiver Style, you can apply any feats and class abilities you possess that modify your ranged attack rolls and damage rolls with the chosen weapon to melee attack rolls and damage rolls made with that weapon. Additionally, you are considered to be threatening the area around you as if you were wielding a melee weapon.
And that post doesn't clarify anything. It states an opinion.
The developers opinion...
Also the bolded section doesn't exactly prove anything either. It's very poorly worded and can be read as only feats that modify attack and damage rolls. I agree that while it was likely intended to function with Rapid Shot you'll likely witness table variation.
Have to agree that rapid shot does work with this build. A -2 penalty to attack rolls by definition modifies your attack roll.
Ranks in Knowledge (engineering)? You got something that puts those to use? If not, I'd sooner pick up Bluff of Intimidate.
EDIT: that said, overall, I like it. For a nonhuman, figure what, ditch Iron Will, and push everything else out one level until you get to that empty spot?
Ranks in Knowledge (engineering)? You got something that puts those to use? If not, I'd sooner pick up Bluff of Intimidate.
To be fair, he's getting those ranks for free and free ranks in Perception too. It's also based on which weapon group he has.
Yeah. I know, but Bluff and Intimidate are available to all Weapon Groups, and unless something specifically needed that Knowledge, I'd figure one of those other two skills to have more utility.
If you have it make uses for it. :p
I can make a hell of a lot more uses for Bluff or Intimidate than I can Kn(eng). :)
Intimidate that door open. :p
Honestly, while it sounds cool I actually don't see the point of the style at all.
If you have access to Point Blank Master you don't provoke an AoO when making ranged attacks and so there is no reason to use melee attacks, except for it to be cool as far as I can tell. You don't gain any real benefit to making melee attacks over ranged attacks. Heck, you don't even threaten squares.
Unless I'm missing something.
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Honestly, while it sounds cool I actually don't see the point of the style at all.
If you have access to Point Blank Master you don't provoke an AoO when making ranged attacks and so there is no reason to use melee attacks, except for it to be cool as far as I can tell. You don't gain any real benefit to making melee attacks over ranged attacks. Heck, you don't even threaten squares.
Unless I'm missing something.
In the end there's no reason to play anything other than a controller wizard. And yet here we are. Some people want to hit people with their bow. Some people don't want to play a controller wizard.
Empty Quiver Flexibility makes it so you threaten.
In the end there's no reason to play anything other than a controller wizard. And yet here we are. Some people want to hit people with their bow. Some people don't want to play a controller wizard.Honestly, while it sounds cool I actually don't see the point of the style at all.
If you have access to Point Blank Master you don't provoke an AoO when making ranged attacks and so there is no reason to use melee attacks, except for it to be cool as far as I can tell. You don't gain any real benefit to making melee attacks over ranged attacks. Heck, you don't even threaten squares.
Unless I'm missing something.
That is a bit disingenuous though. Playing a wizard is a very different experience from playing a martial character. But playing an archer with Point Blank Master versus Empty Quiver Style (and its subsidiaries) really aren't very different except whether you are making ranged attacks or melee attacks.
Also, it occurs to me that when making melee attacks you are probably using Strength to determine your to hit instead of dex, which would be a big detriment. Unless I'm missing something again.
also, this allows you to make combat maneuvers with your bow (in melee) and possibly succeed.
It's true that when you can take it will be sooner, though by taking it so early you also wont be taking the other feats that actually make it useful to have the style (aside from avoiding provoking AoO).
I could see it being useful until you can access PBM, but retraining it afterwards into PBM.
Also, it's not just that you can take Stabbing Shot, you actually must to get to the most out of the style since it is a prereq for Empty Quiver Flexibility.
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Ranks in Knowledge (engineering)? You got something that puts those to use? If not, I'd sooner pick up Bluff of Intimidate.To be fair, he's getting those ranks for free and free ranks in Perception too. It's also based on which weapon group he has.
Clearly, you have never had to distract the party paladin before.
hmm... so now what if we do this with a slayer?
1 Weapon Focus
2 Ranger Combat Style (Archery): Rapid Shot
3 Empty Quiver Style
4 Rogue Talent: Snap Shot
5 Stabbing Shot
6 Ranger Combat Style: Manyshot
7 Empty Quiver Flexibility
8 Slowing Strike or Rogue Talent: Slow Reactions
9 Deadly Aim
10 Ranger Combat Style: Improved Precise Shot
you could rattle off a bunch of arrows at the start of combat then not lose as much effectiveness when melee breaks out. though you'd probably want to build STR. of course, you could always switch Manyshot out for Precise Shot if you wanted to be a more dedicated archer. or pick up PBS and get both.
But compare that to the normal archery build of a Human Ranger:
Level 1: Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot (Precise Shot is necessary if you're going to be shooting into melee, even if you can not provoke using Empty Quiver Style you still are probably going to want to shoot at people in melee at some point).
2: Rapid Shot
3: Deadly Aim
5: Weapon Focus Longbow
6: Point Blank Master
7: Manyshot
9:
10: Improved Precise Shot
The previous builds lack of Precise Shot will hurt it as an archer, as well the fact that it needs strength for melee attacks. The more strength you have to be better at melee the worse your dex will be and the worse you are at hitting with ranged attacks.
It's definitely different, but I think decidedly worse than a normal archery build.
Empty Quiver is cool if you really want to make a switch hitter build, it's just that switch hitting is ultimately worse than being a pure archer.
I would only consider Empty Quiver Style on a class that didn't have access to Point Blank Master.
you shouldn't give advice if your advice is going to be "don't do that. do this instead." advice should be "oh! well here's how to do that better." what you did is a lot like telling someone looking for advice on a blaster wizard "but compare that to this conjurer build."
i already know how to add a human bonus feat and how to get precise shot, and i had already read your opinion on why PBM is "better". you're clearly missing the point if you think no one has noticed that feat. if we wanted to make characters that shoot at people in melee, we would use it. also, what did making it a ranger change?
Another amusing way to do this is with a gunslinger. Then you get to add dex and str to damage.
I'm giving advice from the perspective of "If your goal is to optimize your damage output for the minimal investment", and from that point my advice is perfectly valid. It's similar to telling people that investing in any number of feats is a bad idea if "x" is your goal.
As I said it's valid if your goal is to be different, but if your goal is to do more damage it does not help you do so. My advice is "Here's how to be a better archer/deal more damage".
Making it a ranger didn't really change anything, I just had that exact setup for a ranger already so I referenced it and wanted to establish what I was referencing. Building as a slayer would give an extra feat through talents and another potentially useful talent. Although I prefer to go ranger so I can get a mount to ride around on the battlefield while firing an arrows, but that's decidedly a style preference.
In general, actually being an archer who's dedicated to archery will allow you to deal more damage. Empty Quiver style is novel if you really want to make a switch hitter type of character, but such a character will ultimately deal less damage than the same character built to be dedicated to archery. Partly because it will be slightly worse at archery because picking of EQS delays picking up other feats, and partly because the melee portion is only really useful is someone comes up to you and engages you in melee. Otherwise it's easier to sit back and shoot at people with a bow.
Archery is generally superior to melee (part of the problem of moving and full attacks), and trying to add melee to archery makes you a worse archer.
I'm merely trying to make sure people understand that from a purely damage consideration that there is no real apparent advantage to EQS, and because of needing to split more on str/dex you are likely to end up weaker by comparison. It's valid if you want a different play style, but mechanically weaker.
i don't know... that seems kind of disingenuous to me. it seems really obvious that the topic of conversation was not "how do i maximize my ranged dpr?" it even seems obvious from the "for your consideration" in the title that it was being presented as something different. point blank master is a pretty well known method of accomplishing the goal of "don't let melee stop you from doing your thing" and i highly doubt it went unconsidered until you brought it up.
Eh, perhaps. It may have been obvious to others, but I guess that's where I always go to (DPR maximization unless it's very clear that debuffing or something else is the goal). So I guess it wasn't obvious to me.
I did consider his proposition, it was merely in my eyes the idea didn't have a benefit in comparison to a standard archery build aside from participating in melee as a switch hitter. I guess in my mind I was considering it from a view point of "Does this build have mechanical merit in comparison to other possible (similar-ish) builds?".
Edit: I will give it this though, it is like a better version of TWF. You end up with almost as many attacks as (Rapid Shot and Manyshot give you an effective two extra attacks) while Improved TWF and Greater TWF will give you 3 (though it's almost never worth it for the 3rd feat to give you a 3rd attack at a -10). Add to it that you don't need two weapons to enhance, and for special abilities like Inquisitor's Bane you don't need to activate it on two different weapons.
So it's definitely superior to TWF.
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The thread's title is "beating face with a longbow". Judging from this, I would imagine the idea of the OP smacking people in the face with their bow was important to them to some extent.
Suggestions like shooting point blank instead, or switching class to one that doesn't use bows, while certainly qualifying as advice in the long view of things, do not happen to fit the narrower scope of the thread, re: beating face with a longbow.
It is not that your advice is bad. It is not that your advice isn't useful. But the OP had an idea of what they wanted, and the fluff of the idea seems important to them, and we should respect that.
Currently the only bludgeoning weapon I know that works with Swashbuckler's Finesse is the Morningstar.
Another amusing way to do this is with a gunslinger. Then you get to add dex and str to damage.
That's hilarious, does that even work? ?
Also yes I think I chucked up with the melee attack.
Another amusing way to do this is with a gunslinger. Then you get to add dex and str to damage.That's hilarious, does that even work? ?
Also yes I think I chucked up with the melee attack.
No, you definitely wouldn't get dex to damage when making the melee attack.
The gunslinger's ability says:
Gun Training (Ex)
Starting at 5th level, a gunslinger can select one specific type of firearm (such as an axe musket, blunderbuss, musket, or pistol). She gains a bonus equal to her Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that type of firearm. Furthermore, when she misfires with that type of firearm, the misfire value of that firearm increases by 2 instead of 4. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the gunslinger picks up another type of firearm, gaining these bonuses for those types as well.
You only get the damage bonus when firing the gun. If you're making a melee attack, you're not firing the gun.
I think there you're going to end up using strength on attack and damage rolls when making melee attacks, and dex to determine ranged attack rolls. You apply dex or strength to the weapon as appropriate for the weapon type when making a ranged attack roll.
If you reall want that DEX to Damage check out Savage Technologist:
Crack Shot (Ex)
At 5th level, a savage technologist adds her Dexterity modifier to her damage rolls when making ranged attacks with a firearm while raging.
This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.
That still doesn't work since you still only get dex to damage when making ranged attacks.
They we're talking about getting dex to damage on the melee attacks.
PFS Legal Empty Quiver Flexibility (Combat)
Source Weapon Master's Handbook pg. 14
You can apply your ranged fighting feats to melee attacks.Prerequisites: Empty Quiver Style, Rapid Shot, Stabbing Shot(APG), Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon.
Benefit: While using Empty Quiver Style, you can apply any feats and class abilities you possess that modify your ranged attack rolls and damage rolls with the chosen weapon to melee attack rolls and damage rolls made with that weapon. Additionally, you are considered to be threatening the area around you as if you were wielding a melee weapon.
pretty sure that means both work.
Oh s*&!, I did forget about that. Good call.
I remembered it applied to feats, but I forgot about class abilities.
That still only accomplishes dex to damage though, you still end up using strength for your attack rolls on the melee attacks.
I could actually see this working pretty well for gunslinger then because hitting an enemy with a melee attack would allow you a free reload on your gun with Empty Quiver Flurry.
You also add STR to damage rolls.
From an optimization perspective Empty quiver is actually quite beneficial to melee characters (if you can use Rapid Shot in melee).
It's basically the only way to get bonus attacks with a two handed weapon (albeit a s%*&ty one) outside of Unchained Monk.
PBS is also a really strong melee feat!
Also adding DEX to Damage alongside 1 1/2 times your STR is also a nifty trick.
I also like Bane Arrows with stabbing shot. But not sure if that will work...
I statted out a PFS Techslinger using empty quiver style. It's not particularly amazing, but its pretty silly and at least reasonably effective.
As for stabbing shot, I do believe the ammo is expended, so you cant stock up on a bunch of different bane arrows.
eh... it says "rather than firing it", but i can see how someone might still argue that you lose the ammo.