For your consideration: beating face with a longbow.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Azten wrote:

PFS Legal Empty Quiver Flexibility (Combat)

Source Weapon Master's Handbook pg. 14
You can apply your ranged fighting feats to melee attacks.

Prerequisites: Empty Quiver Style, Rapid Shot, Stabbing Shot(APG), Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon.

Benefit: While using Empty Quiver Style, you can apply any feats and class abilities you possess that modify your ranged attack rolls and damage rolls with the chosen weapon to melee attack rolls and damage rolls made with that weapon. Additionally, you are considered to be threatening the area around you as if you were wielding a melee weapon.

And that post doesn't clarify anything. It states an opinion.

Rapid shot, many shot aren't modifying rolls directly, they're modifying number of attacks. The style only applies to feats that do nothing but modify attack and damage rolls

[Azten]

...while inflicting a penalty to your rolls, so it still works.

[cuatroespada]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

The style only applies to feats that do nothing but modify attack and damage rolls

where do you see the part that says they can do nothing else?

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

cuatroespada wrote:

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

The style only applies to feats that do nothing but modify attack and damage rolls

where do you see the part that says they can do nothing else?

The style says specifically feats which modify attack and damage rolls, not feats which do other things and then indirectly affect those rolls as a consequence. That's clearly the RAI.

[Azten]

Rule as Intended: Feat modifies roll = Useable with this Style.

[cuatroespada]

considering that Rapid Shot and Stabbing Shot (which lets you make a melee attack with your extra shot from Rapid Shot) are prerequisites, i'd think it's pretty clear that you're intended to be able to use Rapid Shot with Empty Quiver Style.

[Sznek]

Crappy wording cause many people headache. That's why Goblin burn letters!

Paizo devs is like Goblins. They don't like words only flashy images from cool movies. Much better than stinkin words and technical writing bleah...

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

cuatroespada wrote:

considering that Rapid Shot and Stabbing Shot (which lets you make a melee attack with your extra shot from Rapid Shot) are prerequisites, i'd think it's pretty clear that you're intended to be able to use Rapid Shot with Empty Quiver Style.

You're not going to try to seriously argue that those feats were originally designed for melee are you?

[swoosh]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

The style says specifically feats which modify attack and damage rolls, not feats which do other things and then indirectly affect those rolls as a consequence.

I'm not sure what's 'indirect' about it. It doesn't reference another rule. It's not like the feat only works when fighting defensively and that's the source of the attack roll change. It's baked in as a core component of the feat. Nothing 'indirect' about it.

Quote:

That's clearly the RAI.

Based on what? How are we defining RAI here? What are you using to derive it?

Because where I'm sitting we have a feat that requires rapid shot as a pre-requisite. And somehow the 'clear RAI' is that it in no way interacts with said pre-requisite at all despite very explicitly fulfilling the requirements spelled out in that feat?

You can also do what others have done in this thread and contrast Flexibility with Point Blank Master, which is basically strictly better in every way outside maybe a couple weird gimmicks and only costs one feat. Which should leave most people scratching their head as to why you want to heap nerfs onto Empty Quiver.

Either way your 'RAI' makes no logical sense in terms of feat structure and wording, nor mechanical sense in terms of balance relative to other options. So I'm not sure how you can call it that unless you have a very, very negative opinion of Paizo.

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

cuatroespada wrote:

considering that Rapid Shot and Stabbing Shot (which lets you make a melee attack with your extra shot from Rapid Shot) are prerequisites, i'd think it's pretty clear that you're intended to be able to use Rapid Shot with Empty Quiver Style.

You're not going to try to seriously argue that those feats were originally designed for melee are you?

Well I mean, seeing how Stabbing Shot's only function is to let you make a melee attack with an arrow, yes.

As for Rapid Shot, no, but neither was Point Blank Shot. See, we're dealing with a feat here that explicitly lets you use ranged weapons in melee and ranged weapon feats on those melee attacks. It not being originally designed for melee is literally the whole point of Empty Quiver in the first place.