Proposal: Unchaining Phantom Phenomena and Silverhex from the Pregen Requirement

[Hmm]

I adore Phantom Phenomena, and find Silverhex a lot of fun. They are great evergreens that provide a variety of experiences that can give a lot of confidence to new players. Phantom Phenomena has a really delightful and quirky NPC, Professor Qlororum, who's a hoot to roleplay. Silverhex when done right has an air of mystery and discovery. These six-part series make a fun change of pace from the Confirmation, Wounded Wisp and the Consortium Compact.

Yes, it would take a little longer to do the whole thing in a gameday time slot. They are probably best designed for conventions and the drop-in crowd. Still, I think that they would work well in Play-by-Post or doing three + three sets over two game day sessions if only we could free them from the requirement to use pregens.

A lot of people want to try out their new characters at level one, and discover how they play out. It's an important phase where you figure out some of what works for you and what does not, and can trade and rework your character before it becomes solidified at level two.

I believe that Silverhex and Phantom Phenomena would work better for non-convention play if we could just allow people to bring their own first level characters. Then they can experiment, and have fun roleplaying the creations that they came up with for themselves. We can still provide pregens for newcomers and others who wish to use them, but it would be lovely if we could open the ranks of these two series to other characters as well.

I welcome all thoughts and commentary to my proposal.

Hmm

___

There was a very long thread devoted to the Future of Quests in PFS, but I decided to start a new one for my proposal because much of the thread dealt with worries about the impact of 5E organized play on PFS. I want to focus on the Quests themselves, and how we can give them more opportunities for play.

[Drogon]

Seconded.

I was very excited when these were all released. I got very sad when I found out you had to run pre-gens. That killed all interest in my area.

PS - in case you don't want to read that thread Hmm linked to, I would like to sum up my own stance from that thread: I want access to these to run them as "intro" adventures. A 60-90 minute drop in and play schedule with these would be awesome. But I want people to feel welcome to bring their own characters, and not forced into playing a pre-gen they have no feelings for.

[FiddlersGreen]

Thirded. I would run my new group through silverhex if it became available for non-pregens. As a series of short encounters, it seems to be a good way to quickly get familiarised with the rules and their characters. Watching this space keenly.

[Terminalmancer]

I would support this. Quests are fun! Picking from a short list of pregens is significantly less fun for most people.

[Hmm]

I want to GM an all-kitsune or tengu table through play-by-post in an evergreen. It would be fun to use Silverhex or Phantom Phenomena for this, if one could actually do those with non-pregen characters. Oh please, please, please... Lift the pre-gen requirement!

[robertness]

I concur with this proposal.

A local GM proposed an Intro to PFS gameday for this weekend. He wants to run character generation and Master of the Fallen Fortress in the first part, break for dinner, then run Phantom Phenomena until everyone needs to go home or they run out of quests. I just don't have the heart to tell him they'll need to use pregens for Phenomena, not their shiny new characters.

[William Ronald]

I concur as well. This gives players, particularly new players, a few more options.

[DrakeRoberts]

I think this would cause problems with cons that use them in 1-hour slots like Gencon, because it's really awkward to say that you can use your own characters sometimes but not others, and because the quick pick-up/intro nature is more ideal for new players and 'simpler' characters will make that experience easier (even others using simpler characters). Furthermore, the Phantom Phenomena (for example) was used at Gencon to promote and introduce the Occult Classes by way of pregens (you could use others, of course, but being limited made this much more likely).

That said, I like the idea in general quite a bit. My counter-proposal, then, would be that we free these quest-chains from the pregen requirement 1-year after they're released. Cons will generally run the current season's chain, so it should generally keep them consistent with store-play by having everyone that year doing pregens only, while still opening these evergreens up in the future to people looking for more options for their starting characters.

[Rosc]

To me, the Quests serve primarily as a means of giving out little mini adventures to PFS players who are new to the game and don't want to be overwhelmed. Allowing people to bring their own characters adds layers of complexity that are best avoided to minimize overload of the new folk.

That said? I think there can be a compromise. In the same way that PFS Core is an on/off toggle, the players could be allowed to bring their own level 1s as long as the GM gave the OK. That way, GMs would have the power to make sure things are still pick up and play, while groups of experienced friends can dink around with fun builds. The downside here is that it can create player confusion and GM pressure: people sign up with the hope/expectation to play as their created characters, but they're let down when the GM makes it pregens-only for whatever perfectly legitimate reason.

I mean, it's still not as fun as an All Harsk table. That was a blast.

[Leg o' Lamb]

To start: I agree with HMM's proposal that Quests be available to level one PCs, with caveats.

That said, I do not think the quests as written would be a good idea for player built characters. People complain already that certain builds destroy scenarios. If we allow this to happen, what is to stop a player with a 0.2 XP build from just roflstomping everything they encounter? Nothing.

Also, if players are objecting to having to use the pregens, why are we not attempting to sway their opinion? Just because Valeros isn't the fighter you would build doesn't make him any less fun to play. Have an open mind and you too can make Lini the life of the party with Ghost Sound and Prestidigitation.

So if we allow this to happen, I suggest we limit it to brand spankin fresh out of the box PCs, ie, zero XP PCs. Which leads into the next issue. What happens when that PC gets that sweet sweet loot and Prestige Point? Thanks for playing? Do you have another zero XP character to play? This is why using the pregens is a must needs for the quests.

While I agree I would like to see this become a thing, ultimately I do not find it feasible.

I thought the all Lini table was fun.

[BartonOliver]

First, let me say if you want to play the Quests with your own characters you can, just not for credit. It would still probably be a very fun experience and worthwhile.

That said I don't think unchaining them from the pregens fits the desired market for the quests. They are intended to be quick jump in jump out adventures and introductory scenarios. Or time fillers even. Not come play 6 - 1 hour adventures with your character. Look at their use at GenCon for example. (At least in the past) They are given their own area, where you can come try out PFS for free (no tickets needed), the paperwork for the GMs is super streamlined for speed, grab a pregen and go. Oh, what are these booths right next to it - the Character Creation Station, the Prize Booth, and the Kids Track (now PSA) - in other words the interest grabbers and new player inducers/helpers are all in one little area so they work together to grab someones interest, show them how to play, and help them move forward into more gaming. (With a side of here's some cool stuff we give out)

Furthermore, the quests are designed with pregens in mind. Which tend to be (let's face it) a little low on the power curve, bringing in homemade characters would blow them out of the water.

I personally enjoy the Quests and the pregens, especially when players take the pregens and inject a bigger personality into them. (Saw a table of Quests where Salim and Valeros were played as Bill and Ted)

[Hmm]

Thanks for the thoughtful response, Jon. Now I'm going to counter it.

:)

I do encourage people to enjoy the pregens. And there are lots of opportunities to try out a pregen in regular play. I have personally played or played alongside every pregen including the occult classes. I'm a big fan of the pregen option for flexibility. We did one run through the Confirmation with an all pregen table because a bunch of us wanted to try out new classes than the ones we normally try.

However, I disagree with you that the wealth difference between a 2xp character and a pregen is that much. Remember that between each quest, a pregen's consumables automatically replenish themselves. And the ACG pregens are really well built, with decent equipment.

I love the idea of an all Harsk table! Rolling to see which pregen you all play in Silverhex is hilarious, and a great way of upping the challenge. This makes me wish that I could have been there on Saturday when you guys did this.

But I still would love to see these quests opened up to all level 1 characters, pregen or not. The Quests would be like Master of the Fallen Fortress -- an evergreen only playable at level one.

Hmm

[BretI]

I haven't attended GenCon since it left the Milwaukee Convention Center and have never been to Paizo Con, so I don't know what happens there.

I have helped with a number of smaller local conventions. There we tend to have a HQ area where all the pre-gens are available along with Pathfinder cards for new people. It is generally from there that we muster quest tables as we get enough people.

In my experience, the quests work great at conventions. Most people aren't willing to give up 4-5 hours for a full scenario, but can easily fit in one hour for a quick quest. There I agree that having the pre-generated characters available is a huge advantage.

The thing is I don't see how that automatically translates into not allowing someone to bring in their own characters.

At conventions, you would just explain that PFS (like most games) has some campaign specific rules -- what are generally called house rules. If someone new wants to run their own character, they have to learn those rules. Using character building as an introduction and then quick trying it out in a quest could really help people get drawn in.

The spiel would change from grab a pre-gen to giving them a choice -- can grab a pre-gen and get started, or wait for a volunteer to be available to help you build your character.

Some people only want to play the characters they build. I've seen people walk away because of the pre-gen requirement.

As for the characters roflstomping the scenario, you already have that to a certain extent with Amiri, Quinn, Oloch, and Crowe.

[Leg o' Lamb]

BretI wrote:

I haven't attended GenCon since it left the Milwaukee Convention Center and have never been to Paizo Con, so I don't know what happens there.

I have helped with a number of smaller local conventions. There we tend to have a HQ area where all the pre-gens are available along with Pathfinder cards for new people. It is generally from there that we muster quest tables as we get enough people.

In my experience, the quests work great at conventions. Most people aren't willing to give up 4-5 hours for a full scenario, but can easily fit in one hour for a quick quest. There I agree that having the pre-generated characters available is a huge advantage.

The thing is I don't see how that automatically translates into not allowing someone to bring in their own characters.

At conventions, you would just explain that PFS (like most games) has some campaign specific rules -- what are generally called house rules. If someone new wants to run their own character, they have to learn those rules. Using character building as an introduction and then quick trying it out in a quest could really help people get drawn in.

The spiel would change from grab a pre-gen to giving them a choice -- can grab a pre-gen and get started, or wait for a volunteer to be available to help you build your character.

Some people only want to play the characters they build. I've seen people walk away because of the pre-gen requirement.

As for the characters roflstomping the scenario, you already have that to a certain extent with Amiri, Quinn, Oloch, and Crowe.

If the emphasis is on speed, then I don't want to spend any more time than I need to learning what your character does. Multiply that by five or six and the one hour game is now 40 minutes because I needed to catch up on some confusing feat combo you found while everyone else sits and watches. I can do this in a normal time slot, but I can't do that in a quest scenario, both meanings of the word.

Also, very few new people go from the character creation station to playing a quest. It is normally the other way around.

The pregens have all of the oddball class specific features printed on the sheet. I can reference that if needed.

These are all reasons why the pregens make the most sense to use for the quest scenarios. Quests are, by design, used in a convention setting; draw new people in. They aren't really made with veteran gamers in mind.

If someone is really that stubborn about not playing a pregen, I will not waste my time trying to convince them otherwise. Thanks for stopping by.

[Hmm]

Okay, so let's keep it at Pregen only for face 2 face conventions in order to keep the speed up. I can see where the value of speed would be important, and as someone who has GMed a bunch of quests at cons, I appreciate that point.

Can we open it up to non-pregens for regular gamedays and play-by-post? In those situations, most people know their characters and are not under the con time-crunch!

Hmm

[Kashka]

More obscure rules. Keep it simple.

I'm with Jon in that it needs to be pregen at conventions. If you want to pbp your own characters... do it for fun not credit.

[trollbill]

It makes sense to limit pre-gens for Quests if the reason you are running the Quests is to introduce and recruit new players. And I admit that is the primary purpose of those Quests. I ran 4 slots of Quests last year at GenCon and I would say the majority of players were new to PFS (though many had some Pathfinder experience). And at GenCon, limiting it to pre-gens only makes complete sense.

However, I don't see why the Quests can't be treated as just another Evergreen outside of conventions. Certainly I would love to play The Phantom Phenomena with one of my new Occult class PFS characters rather than a pre-gen.

[TimD]

To me, intent matters less than execution. Free RPG Day mods aren't wholly intended for PFS, either, but we make them work. As long as they are still able to fulfill their intended purpose, I can't see a reason to not stretch for other purposes as well.

I can see the advantage of giving an option for non-convention, 0-Xp characters to be able to play the various quests, especially at a venue where it was pre-scheduled (ex. a "make new characters because all of your old were burned to a crisp in the most recent errata" day).

I'm not sure how to word that exception where it would not be a detriment to convention play, which is what the SH & PP quests were designed for, however. I think there would need to be some sort of clear policy which expressly prohibited non-pregens in convention settings in order to get that change made - one which did not hinge on the table GM being "the bad guy". Maybe something in a sort of backwards vein of the table warnings for Bonekeep ("you are being permitted to play a non-pregen at this game day as it is not a convention setting and a special exception is made for this Quest for pre-scheduled game days. If you are playing at a convention, this option will NOT be available.").

Dunno.

tl;dr - like the idea, concerned that convention-play will justifiably prohibit its execution.

[GM Lamplighter]

Some quests are designed for new players, and some are designed for highlight new products. They have the same name, but they're not really designed to do the same thing. I'd be worried that Jon's scenarios would come true, that we'd get people driving their -19 and -24 PCs through the scenarios to gain XP without playing one of the other evergreens again, which can ruin them for any new players who are there because it's a way to try Pathfinder in an hour instead of 5.

[trollbill]

GM Lamplighter wrote:

Some quests are designed for new players, and some are designed for highlight new products. They have the same name, but they're not really designed to do the same thing. I'd be worried that Jon's scenarios would come true, that we'd get people driving their -19 and -24 PCs through the scenarios to gain XP without playing one of the other evergreens again, which can ruin them for any new players who are there because it's a way to try Pathfinder in an hour instead of 5.

I would say this is a good reason to have the organizer of the event they are being run at decide if you can play pre-gens only, or not.

[Hmm]

GM Lamplighter wrote:

Some quests are designed for new players, and some are designed for highlight new products. They have the same name, but they're not really designed to do the same thing. I'd be worried that Jon's scenarios would come true, that we'd get people driving their -19 and -24 PCs through the scenarios to gain XP without playing one of the other evergreens again, which can ruin them for any new players who are there because it's a way to try Pathfinder in an hour instead of 5.

I would not worry about that, Lamplighter!

There's a distinct disadvantage to just playing 1 quest and that's money. The quests don't really cough up the dough unless you play 5 or more. Doing all six is a six hour commitment. I did it in a home game, splitting up the games 3+3 over two sessions to get people to have a chance to try things out. I could see doing this in play by post, where running through all six sessions won't be significantly longer than a regular play by post scenario. I think that if people are going to want to be efficient about starting their characters off right, most will go through Confirmation, Wounded Wisp and Consortium Compact. (Some will go through 2 of the 3, and then do a module or Emerald Spire.)

But I'd still like the option because I think that the quests are good. As I stated, I adore Phantom Phenomena, and I've played all the way through Silverhex and found it fun. I liked having a chance of doing a different evergreen, just for the change of pace.

But I don't think quests would replace the other evergreens completely, because of the tradeoff of having to invest time to get your money.

Hmm

["Auntie" Baltwin]

Hmm wrote:

I want to GM an all-kitsune or tengu table through play-by-post in an evergreen. It would be fun to use Silverhex or Phantom Phenomena for this, if one could actually do those with non-pregen characters. Oh please, please, please... Lift the pre-gen requirement!

off topic... but this line "...an all-kitsune or tengu table through play-by-post in an evergreen..." made something click for me. How about an all Wayang table playing thru First Steps... picture these guys dealing with Auntie Baltwin!

[Hmm]

You need to GM this, Nosig!

OMG. We could organize a PBP convention of just these tables. It would be so bizarre... Creature Con!

___

Alright, back on topic. Let's sum up the arguments, back and forth, because I would love us to reach a consensus.

1. Many people would like to see Quests opened up for non-pregen characters as an alternative level 1 evergreen. They have great story and appeal, and although they are not ideal for a regular gameday slot, they are quite doable.

2. Others are concerned that regular level one characters might overpower the quests. There was a proposal on the table suggesting that quests be limited 0 xp regular characters. This was countered with the observation that a number of the pregens (especially the ACG ones) are well-built and well-equipped and that pregen consumables auto-refresh. Some posters feel that 0xp should be a firm requirement, others are fine with allowing any level 1.

3. Conventions that are face-2-face often require tight, fast play to get beginners involved. There needs to be wording that will allow conventions to limit quest tables to pregen only, while allowing gameday organizers to lift the pregen requirement if announced in advance.

4. There is a concern that people might try to bypass an entire level by using just 1 quest from each of the three different series*. There was then an observation made that characters could do this, but would wind up seriously behind wealth by level. This is a balancing factor already built into the system.

Hmm

____
* Because apparently there is a new quest series coming out at Gen Con. Squeee! I want to play it!

[MisterSlanky]

Hmm wrote:

I want to GM an all-kitsune or tengu table through play-by-post in an evergreen.

I would be happy to participate as a player and ensure that no Kitsune survive.

[Leg o' Lamb]

MisterSlanky wrote:

Hmm wrote:

I want to GM an all-kitsune or tengu table through play-by-post in an evergreen.

I would be happy to participate as a player and ensure that no Kitsune survive.

Not if you play Legion to my Enchantasys!.

[MisterSlanky]

Hmm wrote:

But I don't think quests would replace the other evergreens completely, because of the tradeoff of having to invest time to get your money.

We are literally discussing around 250 gp. Yes I get that at level 1 that's half your gold, but this is literally 250 gp. Are we at the min/max point where we have to fight the loss of what accounts to 10 day job checks? Is that what this is about, maximizing gold intake?

I say leave things the way they are.

[Hmm]

MisterSlanky wrote:

Hmm wrote:

I want to GM an all-kitsune or tengu table through play-by-post in an evergreen.

I would be happy to participate as a player and ensure that no Kitsune survive.

Jon, you let Mr. Slanky out of his cage again. What were you thinking?

:p

Hmm
(who snuggles her kitsunes close)

[Leg o' Lamb]

Hmm wrote:

Jon, you let Mr. Slanky out of his cage again. What were you thinking?

Hmm

finishes can of Hamm's

Wut?

[Hmm]

MisterSlanky wrote:

We are literally discussing around 250 gp. Yes I get that at level 1 that's half your gold, but this is literally 250 gp. Are we at the min/max point where we have to fight the loss of what accounts to 10 day job checks? Is that what this is about, maximizing gold intake?

I say leave things the way they are.

I was saying that money would be a consideration to min-maxers who were looking to use quests as a minimal way to bypass level 1.

1 quest is 1xp, 1pp, 100 gold.

If they only did one quest each from three different series, at the end of level 1 they would have:

3 XP
3 PP
300 gold.

That's way below doing three full scenario evergreens which would net you:

3 XP
6 PP
approx 430 x 3 = 1290 gold.

That's a huge difference. Min maxers will notice that, and so they won't use a single quest as a short cut. Now, if you do the whole quest series, the pay is slightly better than a scenario, but only slightly, and you have put more time in than you would in a normal scenario. It's still balanced.

Am I making sense here at all?

Hmm

[trollbill]

Hmm wrote:

MisterSlanky wrote:

We are literally discussing around 250 gp. Yes I get that at level 1 that's half your gold, but this is literally 250 gp. Are we at the min/max point where we have to fight the loss of what accounts to 10 day job checks? Is that what this is about, maximizing gold intake?

I say leave things the way they are.

I was saying that money would be a consideration to min-maxers who were looking to use quests as a minimal way to bypass level 1.

1 quest is 1xp, 1pp, 100 gold.

If they only did one quest each from three different series, at the end of level 1 they would have:

3 XP
6 PP
300 gold.

That's way below doing three full scenario evergreens which would net you:

3 XP
6 PP
approx 430 x 3 = 1290 gold.

That's a huge difference. Min maxers will notice that, and so they won't use a single quest as a short cut. Now, if you do the whole quest series, the pay is slightly better than a scenario, but only slightly, and you have put more time in than you would in a normal scenario. It's still balanced.

Am I making sense here at all?

Hmm

It certainly makes cents to me.

[nosig]

I can really see both sides of this issue - and frankly I tend to be a bit conservative. (I resist change because I fear braking what we have...).

Hmm makes a good case for the change... so here's a couple points to consider against this change.

#) I kind of like having one (or more) thing that HAS to be run with Pre-Gens. I actually think that everyone running games should become familiar with a few of the Pre-Gens, if only to help direct "Total Newbies" to one before a game. Yeah - I really do. I think it helps "round out" the judge/player to get a taste of other classes/styles of PCs. Something I often here from "Old Salts" is "I wouldn't run one of those things if you PAID me...". [sarcasm]Yeah, this is the kind of guy I want giving me advice on which Pre-Gen to run.
[/sarcasm]

#) I feel sure that "some players" could just "speed run" the Quests with custom built PCs which they would just rebuild after the games. Yeah - I know some players will do this in nearly anything. I have encountered them in all the other Evergreens, and sometimes they can detract from actual "Newbies" playing. It is scary to see a group of these guys doing "Crypt of the Everflame" in one 4-5 hour slot... and still having time to go get lunch before the next Con slot.

#) do we really NEED these to be Evergreens? They are kind of unique as is - do we want to make them less unique?

SO... like I said to start with - I can really see both sides of this issue - and it doesn't really matter to me that much either way.

[pauljathome]

I like the idea of broadening the quests. I'm getting tired of the current Evergreens (note, I appreciate that we've been getting 1 a year. But I've STILL played AND GM'ed every single one more than twice)

One suggestion that I haven't yet seen (only skimmed the thread, admittedly).

Maybe allow a quest to be played either ENTIRELY with pregens or ENTIRELY without pregens. So, effectively, if a brand new player steps in it is pregen only. But experienced players will either have their own character or will rapidly create one (possibly by taking a pregen and changing the name :-)).

That adds a little complexity but not much. In practice, it amounts to pregen only with brand new (or nearly brand new) players without having to actually define the term.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

I understand the desire to play quests with real characters, and I already had to disappoint players that this was not an option. Like John I already have a couple of reservations:

- Player characters, even those with 0 XP can be significantly more powerful than the pregens, a many of the ACG pregens are good (but of course quite a number of them don't represent legal characters, their armor has been made to expensive just to mention one thing). I have seen player characters with CL 4 burning hands at level 1 and quests are not build to survive that.

- Ideally every player should feel that they are contributing, but with real characters on the table, there is a real chance that experienced players can steal the spotlight.

- The modular nature of quests makes them a bit troublesome for PCs whith limited resources, thus and for a couple of other reasons I would suggest the following solution if there is any real desire to make this possible:

"Groups can play the entire 6 part series of quests as their first chronicle on a new character, their supplies and the supplies of any pregen involved will not be replenished and the GM has final say, how many quests happen in a single ingame day. "

But really once you are at that point, you might as well ask nicely to convince the PFS team to redevelop Phantom Phenomena as a scenario.

[Vinyc Kettlebek]

The quests were developed to be used as a quick demo for new players, so allowing pregens only makes sense. If a player is committed enough to make their own character they should have no problem investing the time to play an evergreen or 1-5 scenario.

[Tempest_Knight]

I like the Quests... (the 6-part, Con Demo set)

I would love to run them for players looking to try out character build concepts under a variety of situations, and give them PFS credit as well.

[trollbill]

Vinyc Kettlebek wrote:

The quests were developed to be used as a quick demo for new players, so allowing pregens only makes sense.

Just because that is what they were designed for doesn't mean their use cannot be expanded.

Quote:

If a player is committed enough to make their own character they should have no problem investing the time to play an evergreen or 1-5 scenario.

If a player is committed enough to create a character, odds are they want to play that character, not a pregen. The fact that they can play other scenarios with that character does not justify denying them playing this one with them. There have been other reasons brought up that are valid, but 'you shouldn't be allowed to do X because you can do Y' is not one of them. Such arguments may help ameliorate the problem but they don't justify it.

[Hmm]

MoFF started out as pregen only. Risen from the Sands was pregen-only. We opened both modules up. I'd like to see this option opened for play in everything but convention F2F play.

These are fun little stories. I'd like to see them run outside conventions on occasion. I want to totter around as Professor Qlororum and drive my players crazy!

Hmm

[pH unbalanced]

The Quests look fun. I have never run or played any of them, because locally the player base is not willing to play pregens.

My proposal would be similar to what other people have suggested -- a year after release (when a newer set of Quests has moved in to fill the ecological niche) open up a set of Quests to be playable by any 0xp characters.

[Terminalmancer]

We have scheduled quests before and to my knowledge almost nobody has ever played them.

I myself have run the Silverhex Chronicles at a distant con, once upon a time, and I had to pull players over and then disappoint them when they weren't able to play the characters they already had. Even the new players! Pathfinder is not the lightest ruleset in the world, if you're going to play, you're probably going to have a character ready.

Limiting the quests to pregens-only has, in my experience, been a way to prevent them from being played. If drastically limiting the audience is the goal, that's fine, but weird?

Having people plow through these with a custom character while a group of pregen players looks on in dismay does seem... plausible? But maybe because I have never been to a Gencon or Paizocon it's something I've never seen myself. I would personally vote for a GM's ability to define a quest as pregen-only as my preferred solution--it seems like a good idea to me.

I'm mostly supporting this because the quests appear to be a product line just barely hanging on to life as far as I can tell, not getting any play, very little outreach, and there's not very many of them released. I'm not likely to play one with a pregen, myself.

I don't always have great sightlines into how larger areas and the biggest cons work so I'm happy to be proved wrong, too!

[Leg o' Lamb]

The last con at which we set up shop, the quests were the most popular table. we consistently had 4-6 people, new to PFS, Pathfinder or both, sitting and playing Silverhex. Out of this we had three new people become excited about organized play. All of them played the pregens. A local VO was usually at the table helping the new players navigate the choices. "What style character would you like to play? Here, take a look at Seoni."

(This is almost a verbatim script out of the beginner's box guidelines)

The quests when used as intended are wonderful tools to grow your player base. Everyone is on a roughly equal power setting and no one thinks they made a bad choice in character. Even Harsk and Valeros have opportunities to shine in the various quest adventures.

If you know there are people in your lodge that hate on the pregens, don't ask them to run the quests. We will never be able to rid peeps of their preconceived notions of the pregens, but we can use them as tools to generate interest from and in new players. And because of this, we can introduce people to the classes and races of Pathfinder, get them to look at one class or another, ask questions about the races, etc. It is also a reason why I detest scheduling We Be Goblins at con to fill this role.

"Here are four goblins for you to play! Be wacky! Be zany! Do stupid actions!"

Later...

"Oh, I'm sorry, you can't play a goblin in society play. Can I interest you in Kyra?"

[trollbill]

Since I ran 4 Slots of Quests at GenCon I will give some incite. At GenCon it is set up primarily as a recruiting tool. Now, to be fair, I was not the guy standing there directing people to tables that would have had to hear complaints about not being able to play their own characters, so I don't know how big a deal it was there. I just know that most of the people at my tables were new to PFS, if not Pathfinder, and most of the other people were there with someone else, trying to get them into PFS. We had no problems filling tables except possibly Sunday when the Con was winding down. A lot of people come to GenCon to try new things so this works out quite fine.

In this particular environment, I agree with the 'PreGens Only' philosophy.

But as you have pointed out. This doesn't work very well outside of this environment. To me, this seems like a waste of resources. You have an adventures that you have already put the resources into creating, but it only gets used in a limited venue.

[Hmm]

Here's how Quests work for me at cons. "Hey guys, would you like to play a game? It'll only take an hour."

"I've got a panel at three."

"We'll be done well before then. These quests are mini-Pathfinder games. Fast-moving and a lot of fun. We even have premade characters so you can jump in and go!"

___

If you're proactive and friendly, you can usually get a bunch of tables going quickly in rapid succession. People walking by see the laughter and the crazy stuff my players do, and then they want to try it out too. Players will often try nutty and insane things in these quests. It builds confidence and acquaints them with rules basics.

Someone who wanted to build a cleric had great fun with Kyra, and got a lot of confidence in playing a game with his own cleric later. Folks signed up for Organized Play. A lot of people thanked me for GMing, and told me it was a blast, and then signed up for scenarios later in the con. So yes, I enjoy quests, and don't mind the pregen requirement at cons. I even like most of the pregens. There's a wide variety of great ones to choose from.

___

That said... I'd still like the option to run real characters through these outside the convention setting. They're great little mini-adventures, and they deserve more exposure to a wider audience.

Hmm

[Zach Davis]

I support the use of non-pregen characters in quests. I have been slated to run quests at cons a couple of times, and none of the tables ever happened. While I wasn't there when tables were being formed I can't help but think that the limiting factor of not being able to play ones own character played a part. I ran Silverhex once for my homegroup with the pregen requirement, and when Phantom Phenomena came around there was no interest. While I understand they are meant as demos they are still fun adventures that shouldn't have requirements built in that dissuade others from experiencing them.

[Lady Ladile]

I'm aware that I'm not exactly the target audience for quests since I'm relatively new to PFS but not Pathfinder itself, but as a player I'd like to see the quests eventually opened up to non-pregen characters too. I don't care for pre-gens not because I think any of them are poorly built but because playing them doesn't feel as personal to me. I'd much rather experience the content with a character that I made and have an attachment to.

The solution of keeping them pre-gen only for conventions but allowing them to be open to both pre-gen and regular 0 exp characters elsewhere seems like it could work. I'd imagine you're much more likely to get true newbies at conventions and keeping them pre-gen only there keeps things simple and streamlined for both the players and the GMs. Elsewhere where the time constraints aren't as much of an issue, new players would have the option of picking a pre-gen or making their own character while allowing veterans a chance to experience the content as well with a character of their own making *or* a pre-gen if they wanted to play but didn't have an eligible character and didn't want to make one just for the quests.

[Drogon]

I would like the Quest line available to players of any type of PC for one reason, above all other reasons: I want to see a lineup of adventures that are capable of filling 6 to 8 nights, once per week, over the course of a couple months, with "drop in and play" style games available for all who care to show up.

To be clear about what I want, I will point a finger at the D&D Adventurers' League Encounters program. This program was built on the idea of "one encounter per session," which very much feels like the Quest style of adventure. There is a continuous story for all the Encounters in a series, but playing them all front-to-back just isn't something that every player was able to do. And that was okay. If you made sessions 1-4, missed 5 and 6, then showed up for 7-10, you were welcome. Players moved in and out of Encounters freely and without regret. They could bring their own PC to every single session. Or they could play in just one session to see what it was like to play D&D and be handed a pre-gen without hesitation. They could even try out different PCs at different points during the season. Or they might try the pre-gens the first couple times and then, amazingly, <--that's sarcasm after deciding they liked this game, show up one day with their OWN character. Every type of player was welcome.

The program was WILDLY popular. So popular that even though WotC has attempted to kill it players and DMs are continuing to use the model to run their games in my stores. They don't even care about getting "official" rewards for the games; they just want to play with that style and structure.

I have seen all kinds of groups form because of the Encounters setup. I have many of them playing their weekly "home" games in my stores. I have even ended up hiring one of the DMs because I was so impressed with his attitude while running games (something he says he never would have tried without the Encounters model).

There are a lot of positive things I can see for a Quest lineup for PFS. I could continue, but I don't want to wax too poetic about a competing model.

I do not see how opening up Quests to 1st level PCs would halt the ability to play with pre-gens at a convention. All it would do is give players the option of bringing their own or using a pre-gen, which they already have in tier 1-5 adventures (and most others) anyway. I regularly seat 3 brand new players playing pre-gens with 3 veterans running 1st or 2nd level PC at tier 1-5 games, or (more likely) at my Learn to Play game. I'm not sure I've ever been told that this practice has upset anyone's ability to have fun.

[TriOmegaZero]

After extensive use of the quests at the past two PCCs, I would not support muddying the water with allowing regular PCs. It was far nicer to just have people sit down and need nothing to play quests as everything was provided and were known quantities.

[trollbill]

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

After extensive use of the quests at the past two PCCs, I would not support muddying the water with allowing regular PCs. It was far nicer to just have people sit down and need nothing to play quests as everything was provided and were known quantities.

Steven, I think there is a consensus that Quests at Cons should be limited to PreGens. The main argument, I believe, is allowing people to play them with their own characters outside of a Con environment.

[TriOmegaZero]

And I don't support the confusion that will bring when someone sits down at a con with their character only to be told 'you must play a pregen'.

[Drogon]

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

And I don't support the confusion that will bring when someone sits down at a con with their character only to be told 'you must play a pregen'.

I have to agree with this. It should be one way or the other. Confusion isn't useful.

Having said that, I still don't understand how being allowed to NOT play a pre-gen will stop people from being able to play a pre-gen.

[Jessex]

After some thought I agree that quests should be restricted to pregens.

I would renew my call for a rebuild of all the pregens to be better. While I realize the pregens are based on the iconics they could still be tweaked a little to be less awful, particularly the first level pregens which ideally should be built strictly by the rules for a 0 x.p. character so we can hand them to new players who can play them as their -1 and customize them once they learn the game.