Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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And we all know that players read the signups, like my player that brought a lucky 7 Int/Wis/Cha fighter to Bid for Alabastrine.
Well I guess there is no point in advertising Level Bands, having a free download Guild Guild, or having an Available Resources. Because someone might not read all of it. In fact, why even have rules if the possibility exists that someone might not read them.
I am constantly having to deal with confusions associated with the Pathfinder rules. I handle them the same way I would handle a player that was confused about not being told one time he can play a Quest with his own character, and another time he can't. I would do it by explaining the rules.
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
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Actually the first "quests" premiered at GenCon 2012.
You could play with your own 1st level character or take a pregen.
The disparity between the pregens and people's own builds was the main reason to limit the 'general public' quests that were developed afterwards.
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And we all know that players read the signups, like my player that brought a lucky 7 Int/Wis/Cha fighter to Bid for Alabastrine.
Inconveniencing a player that doesn't read a signup sheet should not outweigh making game content more accessible to thousands of existing players. Again, I don't see how it's any different than the situation now. A player who shows up with a character ill suited for a scenario or who doesn't read a signup sheet is just as likely to show up with their own character whether the quests are pre-gen only everywhere or only at conventions, because they aren't likely to be aware the quests are pre-gen only in the first place.
An existing player who is aware of the restriction and doesn't want to play a pre-gen isn't going to show up for a quest anywhere, ever. And that is a shame. A store like Drogon's offering a two hour quest slot for player built PCs doesn't hurt the use of quests at a convention one bit. Having the quests be pre-gen only does prevent them from being able to be offered reliably at many local game days.
In other words, one of these situations might lead to an awkward conversation with a player who didn't read the rules for the session (a situation that can already occur). Another is leading to a large population of PFS players feeling excluded from, or at the very least uninterested in, the content.
I'm fine with there being an initial period of time where the quests are limited to pre-gens, especially in a situation like the release of Occult Adventures where Paizo wants to show off their new classes. But eventually, just like the non-goblin Free RPG modules, I think the quests should be opened up beyond the pre-gens.
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I'd also like to advocate for quests being able to use shiny new L1's, or a pre-gen if desired. I can see the point, I'd just like the flexibility.
These quests look fun, but the pre-gen condition is putting off my regular players on what could be some fun beer & pretzels gaming.
Mini-quests would also be great for 2-3 players, which is usually how I seem to encounter new players usually the remains of an older group from another system coming across.
When we came to Pathfinder we were lucky enough to have one solid group, but the others we have picked up along the way have been onesie-twosie.
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Actually the first "quests" premiered at GenCon 2012.
You could play with your own 1st level character or take a pregen
In 2013 we had Goblin Attack which unfortunately was never released for general use. It was a lot of fun but was restricted to core pregens. We also after having seen it run often "forgot" to include Amiri is an option because of her penchant to one-shot the encounters. There were a few minor grumblings about playing a custom character but most had a good time playing the material. Sometimes it's important to remember that the GM/author are limited in the presentation of the scenario/Quest material and unable to make many, if any, adjustments in consideration of the PCs being used. In those cases, limiting to pregens can improve the quality of play by both knowing what the PCs can do and emphasizing the skills and abilities they posses and restricting the PCs that may not have those abilities.
In the end game, I trust the organizer to know their community better than me. So, while opening up the Quests for custom PC play is fine, I don't want it forced on anyone either. Dragon should be able to allow custom built PCs at his venue if it'll improve play and increase butts in seats. At the same time, TOZ should be able to limit his event to pregens only if that prevents the optimizers from ruining the experience for new/casual players. It is an option that is flexible without being disruptive.
One caveat that may need to be included is that custom PCs must be new with zero XP. The Quests were not developed to take into account added power for scenarios played and we all know there is a huge difference between a new 0 XP character and one with 2 XP, 4 Prestige, and roughly 1000gp in rewards
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What I worry about, should the organizer be given the option of allowing custom characters or not, is that player who shows up to an announced all pregen table and is loud, rude, and whiny about, "but you have the option to let me play me character if you want!"
I'd rather leave them as pregen only.
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What I worry about, should the organizer be given the option of allowing custom characters or not, is that player who shows up to an announced all pregen table and is loud, rude, and whiny about, "but you have the option to let me play me character if you want!"This sort of carry on happens?!
Yes.
More often than you think.
le sigh
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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What I worry about, should the organizer be given the option of allowing custom characters or not, is that player who shows up to an announced all pregen table and is loud, rude, and whiny about, "but you have the option to let me play me character if you want!"
I'd rather leave them as pregen only.
And is such a person, when he finds out something you are running is Pregen only without the option and didn't know about it, any less likely to whine, "Why can't I play my regular character? That's BS! Just let me play it. Who's going to know? You are reporting it against my character anyway."
There are such people out there, but they will whine about something regardless of what you do.
Of course, in some cases, I am sure there are people out there that have done just exactly that.
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Actually the first "quests" premiered at GenCon 2012.
You could play with your own 1st level character or take a pregen
In 2013 we had Goblin Attack which unfortunately was never released for general use. It was a lot of fun but was restricted to core pregens. We also after having seen it run often "forgot" to include Amiri is an option because of her penchant to one-shot the encounters. There were a few minor grumblings about playing a custom character but most had a good time playing the material. Sometimes it's important to remember that the GM/author are limited in the presentation of the scenario/Quest material and unable to make many, if any, adjustments in consideration of the PCs being used. In those cases, limiting to pregens can improve the quality of play by both knowing what the PCs can do and emphasizing the skills and abilities they posses and restricting the PCs that may not have those abilities.
In the end game, I trust the organizer to know their community better than me. So, while opening up the Quests for custom PC play is fine, I don't want it forced on anyone either. Dragon should be able to allow custom built PCs at his venue if it'll improve play and increase butts in seats. At the same time, TOZ should be able to limit his event to pregens only if that prevents the optimizers from ruining the experience for new/casual players. It is an option that is flexible without being disruptive.
One caveat that may need to be included is that custom PCs must be new with zero XP. The Quests were not developed to take into account added power for scenarios played and we all know there is a huge difference between a new 0 XP character and one with 2 XP, 4 Prestige, and roughly 1000gp in rewards
It only took over 100 posts to repeat what I advocated way back in the olden days of this thread.
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I agree on the one year moratorium on new quests with pre-gens only. And after Gencon’s release of a new quest the old quest has an open door policy “can be played with player generated characters.”
I’ve seen too many people walk away because they want to play their own character.
I want more evergreens to send my level 1 characters through. There’s I don’t know 50 different classes and only 10 evergreens? Boring.
Every time we say no that’s another player we lose to D&D 5.0. I’m sick of the “no you can’t play” mentality.
Hey, let’s have some fun out there! Say Yes and have Fun.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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It only took over 100 posts to repeat what I advocated way back in the olden days of this thread.
I don't know that you *exactly* said what Bob said, Jon. When I first read your post I marked you down in the "opposed" column. Bob's post I think puts him in the "for" column. You both make statements that indicate your opinions can be swayed, and it looks like you're both swaying around about as much as I am.
TOZ's comments that the quests aren't built for custom PCs built to anticipate the use of earned gold or items makes sense.
In line with that thought is your own (and Bob's) suggestions that only 0 xp, brand new characters should be brought in.
Your statement in your first post about what to do after that first Quest gets played is very indicative of the problems that TOZ is highlighting, and not necessarily solved by Bob's written suggestion.
*IF* the quest line opened up to custom PCs, people will want to play their PCs through all parts, potentially. Does each part of the Silverhex Chronicles grant something? (I fully admit ignorance, here, as I have yet to read them, despite this discussion). If so, that becomes a growing problem as the games progress, a problem that keeps someone like TOZ from being at all willing to consider the idea of opening up tables to non-pre-gens. If so, are there rules that withhold the rewards until all parts of the series have been played? If not, *can* rules be put in place that withhold rewards until all the parts have been played?
I still want to see a lineup similar to Quests be made available for what I have advocated (1-2 hour sessions, allowing for more new-player flexibility). But if Quests, as they currently exist, can't fill that role, then I would want to see something different developed. I don't want TOZ to lose his flexibility just for my gain; that is not a NET gain for the campaign.
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It only took over 100 posts to repeat what I advocated way back in the olden days of this thread.
It was such a good idea it needed to be repeated :-D
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*IF* the quest line opened up to custom PCs, people will want to play their PCs through all parts, potentially. Does each part of the Silverhex Chronicles grant something? (I fully admit ignorance, here, as I have yet to read them, despite this discussion).
Each quest grants a little bit more, until the completed chronicle gives full rewards. However, the full rewards are equal to any other evergreen option. Even with pregens, I prefer to see people complete the quests in order to not be shorted GP/PP.
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So we could leave some responsibility in the hands of the players. Allow them to use custom characters (at the organizers discretion) but they cannot have earned any chronicles on said character other than the ones associated with the Quest they are currently involved in otherwise, they are required to either use a different brand-new PC for the rest of the Quest series or choose a pregen. IMO, that would allow the widest flexibility to the players/organizer while still maintain the integrity of the Quests and the challenges contained therein.
I am a big fan and advocate of putting customizable tools in the hands of organizers and Venture-Officers to maximize the enjoyment in their area based on the needs/wants of the players. One-size does not always fit all.
oh, and BTW Drogon sorry about calling you "Dragon" earlier. I think my inner autocorrect may have gotten involved :-)
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What I worry about, should the organizer be given the option of allowing custom characters or not, is that player who shows up to an announced all pregen table and is loud, rude, and whiny about, "but you have the option to let me play me character if you want!"
I'd rather leave them as pregen only.
The problem with this approach is that, for fear of an awkward encounter, you are willing to let a very large portion of the PFS population remain uninterested or unable to play. Once again, the potential for an awkward encounter with a player who is unwilling to read the rules of the session ahead of time should not outweigh or prevent thousands of players from playing the quests with their own characters when there is no conflict.
I'm sure as an organizer that you already deal with players who are adamant about their position on things. Whether it's running a high tier character when everyone else is low tier, not being moved to a different table, or insisting something works the way they think it does. If a person is going to be a problem, they're going to be a problem. When you say that you don't want to create another situation where that could occur, though, it is at the expense of the organizers like Drogon, who are saying they can't schedule a session at all, because they can't get enough players to sign up for a pre-gen only game, and they don't have a time slot long enough for a regular scenario.
I know Paizo doesn't release data on reported sessions. It would be interesting to see how many people who have been playing PFS for more than two years (or whatever cutoff date) have ever played the quests that are restricted to pre-gens. Maybe that's something they can look at behind the scenes.
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It only took over 100 posts to repeat what I advocated way back in the olden days of this thread.I don't know that you *exactly* said what Bob said, Jon. When I first read your post I marked you down in the "opposed" column. Bob's post I think puts him in the "for" column. You both make statements that indicate your opinions can be swayed, and it looks like you're both swaying around about as much as I am.
TOZ's comments that the quests aren't built for custom PCs built to anticipate the use of earned gold or items makes sense.
In line with that thought is your own (and Bob's) suggestions that only 0 xp, brand new characters should be brought in.
Your statement in your first post about what to do after that first Quest gets played is very indicative of the problems that TOZ is highlighting, and not necessarily solved by Bob's written suggestion.
*IF* the quest line opened up to custom PCs, people will want to play their PCs through all parts, potentially. Does each part of the Silverhex Chronicles grant something? (I fully admit ignorance, here, as I have yet to read them, despite this discussion). If so, that becomes a growing problem as the games progress, a problem that keeps someone like TOZ from being at all willing to consider the idea of opening up tables to non-pre-gens. If so, are there rules that withhold the rewards until all parts of the series have been played? If not, *can* rules be put in place that withhold rewards until all the parts have been played?
I still want to see a lineup similar to Quests be made available for what I have advocated (1-2 hour sessions, allowing for more new-player flexibility). But if Quests, as they currently exist, can't fill that role, then I would want to see something different developed. I don't want TOZ to lose his flexibility just for my gain; that is not a NET gain for the campaign.
I'm sorry, Drogon, maybe I wasn't as clear as I thought I was the first time around. My apologies. I will try to explain myself better here.
The rewards of the Quests are based upon the number that you complete. For a player to use their custom built level 1 PC, to get any value out of the quests, they must play a minimum of four. This awards the player's character 1xp, 2pp, and I think 350gp, honestly not sure on the amount.
Going off memory:
1 quest: 1xp, 1pp, 100gp
2 quest: 1xp, 1pp, 150gp
3 quest: 1xp, 1pp, 250gp
4 quest: 1xp, 2pp, 300gp
5 quest: 1xp, 2pp, 400gp
6 quest: 1xp, 2pp, 500gp
So as you can see, to get an amount similar to playing a tier 1-2 scenario with the same character, the player must play all six quests.
In a convention setting, why would a player want to do this? I see no good reason a player would want to spend upwards of six hours playing the quests. They are designed to fill a specific role of introducing new players to Pathfinder and PFS. Myself and a few other of the local Venture Team attended a meeting of the organization that sponsors our February convention. Discussing with them and using our own knowledge of how the quests work, instead of scheduling the quests in 2 hour blocks we went to an "All Con" listing. It removes the need to have tickets for these and allows folks to walk up, take a look, and have a friendly face say, "Want to play some Pathfinder?"
Now, if people want to schedule the quests in a home game I have no problem with the players playing their own characters. If a store wishes to advertise they are offering the quests, then we have an issue. In a public game I still think the quests should remain all pregen. While my personal preference is players be able to use their own characters starting with zero xp fresh off the turnip wagon, I do not see a feasible way to make everyone happy.
Home game? Knock yerself out! Do what you want.
Con or public game day? Pregens.
Is this clearer?
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So we could leave some responsibility in the hands of the players. Allow them to use custom characters (at the organizers discretion) but they cannot have earned any chronicles on said character other than the ones associated with the Quest they are currently involved in otherwise, they are required to either use a different brand-new PC for the rest of the Quest series or choose a pregen. IMO, that would allow the widest flexibility to the players/organizer while still maintain the integrity of the Quests and the challenges contained therein.
This is a good potential compromise, however, it's worth pointing out that every time in the past that something was restricted to brand new characters only or an exact XP amount, that restriction has eventually been lifted. Organizers need flexibility, like you said. Didn't first steps at one time require a brand new character for part 1? Or Master of the Fallen Fortress? And Eyes of the Ten used to require exactly 33 XP.
The bottom line is that the more freedom an Organizer has to schedule a session an include players, the more sessions will get scheduled.
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So we could leave some responsibility in the hands of the players. Allow them to use custom characters (at the organizers discretion) but they cannot have earned any chronicles on said character other than the ones associated with the Quest they are currently involved in otherwise, they are required to either use a different brand-new PC for the rest of the Quest series or choose a pregen. IMO, that would allow the widest flexibility to the players/organizer while still maintain the integrity of the Quests and the challenges contained therein.This is a good potential compromise, however, it's worth pointing out that every time in the past that something was restricted to brand new characters only or an exact XP amount, that restriction has eventually been lifted. Organizers need flexibility, like you said. Didn't first steps at one time require a brand new character for part 1? Or Master of the Fallen Fortress? And Eyes of the Ten used to require exactly 33 XP.
The bottom line is that the more freedom an Organizer has to schedule a session an include players, the more sessions will get scheduled.
To my knowledge, Eyes still requires exactly 33xp.
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To my knowledge, Eyes still requires exactly 33xp.So we could leave some responsibility in the hands of the players. Allow them to use custom characters (at the organizers discretion) but they cannot have earned any chronicles on said character other than the ones associated with the Quest they are currently involved in otherwise, they are required to either use a different brand-new PC for the rest of the Quest series or choose a pregen. IMO, that would allow the widest flexibility to the players/organizer while still maintain the integrity of the Quests and the challenges contained therein.This is a good potential compromise, however, it's worth pointing out that every time in the past that something was restricted to brand new characters only or an exact XP amount, that restriction has eventually been lifted. Organizers need flexibility, like you said. Didn't first steps at one time require a brand new character for part 1? Or Master of the Fallen Fortress? And Eyes of the Ten used to require exactly 33 XP.
The bottom line is that the more freedom an Organizer has to schedule a session an include players, the more sessions will get scheduled.
You can slow track parts of it now, I thought?
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Didn't first steps at one time require a brand new character for part 1? Or Master of the Fallen Fortress? And Eyes of the Ten used to require exactly 33 XP.
Well, First Steps required a brand new character to be able to play all three parts. That only changed because the other two parts were retired. I can't speak to MotFF, but I think the chronicle still has language hinting at such a requirement. And Eyes still requires exactly 33XP. (Which has made this upcoming game difficult to schedule.)
You can slow track parts of it now, I thought?
I suppose, but I'm not sure it would benefit you to do so.
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why would a player want to do this? I see no good reason a player would want to spend upwards of six hours playing the quests
Interesting story? The opportunity to explore strange new places, encounter new and interesting people, kill them, and take their stuff? :-D
Seriously, many of us just like to play and Quests are another avenue for that and the 6 hour estimate is not necessarily black n' white. I would posit that the average time for a Quest series is as varied as any scenario.|
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why would a player want to do this? I see no good reason a player would want to spend upwards of six hours playing the questsInteresting story? The opportunity to explore strange new places, encounter new and interesting people, kill them, and take their stuff? :-D
Seriously, many of us just like to play and Quests are another avenue for that and the 6 hour estimate is not necessarily black n' white. I would posit that the average time for a Quest series is as varied as any scenario.
Sure, I can see that.
Sorry, I've just been in convention planning mode and looking at things from a "Block of Time" perspective.
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Didn't first steps at one time require a brand new character for part 1? Or Master of the Fallen Fortress? And Eyes of the Ten used to require exactly 33 XP.Well, First Steps required a brand new character to be able to play all three parts. That only changed because the other two parts were retired. I can't speak to MotFF, but I think the chronicle still has language hinting at such a requirement. And Eyes still requires exactly 33XP. (Which has made this upcoming game difficult to schedule.)
You can slow track parts of it now, I thought?I suppose, but I'm not sure it would benefit you to do so.
i guess I was thinking of the new Seeker content. I need to slow track some of that to get back on schedule to reach level 20.
There was never a restriction on First Steps that they must be played in order and only starting with a new character?
For MoFF as has been pointed out many times in other threads, the chronicle sheet will likely never be updated, because of logistical reasons. The rules for playing it are in the latest guide, although they are unclear and hopefully being clarified for the Season 8 guide.
The point being, if people are concerned about the rules around quests becoming too confusing, a restriction to a brand new character only just makes the rules around them more complicated. It's a better situation than now. I just think eventually there will be a push to lift that restriction as well.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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why would a player want to do this? I see no good reason a player would want to spend upwards of six hours playing the questsInteresting story? The opportunity to explore strange new places, encounter new and interesting people, kill them, and take their stuff? :-D
Seriously, many of us just like to play and Quests are another avenue for that and the 6 hour estimate is not necessarily black n' white. I would posit that the average time for a Quest series is as varied as any scenario.Sure, I can see that.
Sorry, I've just been in convention planning mode and looking at things from a "Block of Time" perspective.
Look at it from the perspective of the convention attendee though. I can play all six parts between other stuff that I'm doing.
I don't have to schedule a 4-5 hour block, just multiple 1 hour blocks. At a con, that is a huge advantage. Best of all, I don't have to commit -- just show up when it is convenient. Such as after abandoning a different panel when you discovered it wasn't what you were looking for.
I think this works well for those conventions that are not dedicated to gaming, but have areas set up for it. There the time blocks do not necessarily match the amount of time for a scenario.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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If you have an existing PFS character, then you likely know the landscape. And if I advertise appropriately, then it's not my fault if they don't read what I advertise.What I worry about, should the organizer be given the option of allowing custom characters or not, is that player who shows up to an announced all pregen table and is loud, rude, and whiny about, "but you have the option to let me play me character if you want!"
I'd rather leave them as pregen only.
And is such a person, when he finds out something you are running is Pregen only without the option and didn't know about it, any less likely to whine, "Why can't I play my regular character? That's BS! Just let me play it. Who's going to know? You are reporting it against my character anyway."
There are such people out there, but they will whine about something regardless of what you do.
Of course, in some cases, I am sure there are people out there that have done just exactly that.
Doesn't that just counter your original statement?
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SO... Currently the PC this is assigned to does NOT have to be a 0xp PC... it can be assigned to any 1st level PC (0xp, 1xp or 2xp).
That's true, but you're not playing the Quest with that character so we really don't care if it is brand new or just any level 1. What we're talking about is allowing custom PCs to play the Quests which will open them up to all sorts of builds and a very wide swath of capabilities based on rewards earned through scenario play. That is one of the things being bantered about. How do we keep the integrity of the Quests while also accommodating an ever-growing number of players who want to play their custom PC in Quests? Some of the proposals above will allow that.
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Each quest grants a little bit more, until the completed chronicle gives full rewards. However, the full rewards are equal to any other evergreen option. Even with pregens, I prefer to see people complete the quests in order to not be shorted GP/PP.
Interestingly, this argument actually sways me more in the other direction - towards opening for non-pregens.
Having been intermittently working on a "Coordinating 101" doc for local PFS for a bit, two of the areas that are always difficult to pin down are good GM training and organizing week night events.
The ability to do a series of GM/New Player training on a week night where newer players can put together new PCs and round-robin GM various quests seems like a win-win. The shorter timeframe of the Quests gives more time for feedback and allows a second quest to start-up in the same session so that lessons learned can be immediately applied. For extra bonus, as you can run two Quests in the night, those who can't make it at the start can still jump in on it and you may also pull some other interested hangers-about from the store into things...
That said, yes, convention play would still probably be an issue...
... if Tonya & co. are willing for some ideas that are a bit wackier, maybe an alternate reporting sheet / chronicle sheet like what is done with the sanctioned modules specifying the differences between standard ("convention / as-intended") play and "open play" (where PCs can bring their own 1st Level [0 xp?] characters). This would give an opportunity to clearly spell out the differences without having to re-write or change anything for the convention-play side and still open things up for the organizers who may want to use the Quests for something a bit different, but still want the incentive / ability to make sure the play is applied towards PFS credit.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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There is always a push to lift any restrictions. :(
Very true. And is something I tend to dislike, myself.
Jon, Bob, and others posting on the merits of their stance, I've read everything you're saying, and am contemplating my own (evolving) stance. I'll be back in a bit to put it into writing.
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I use them to serve two purposes. It can teach new players some of the basics, but it also introduces the veterans to new classes that they had not yet considered playing.
A few weeks ago, we ran The Silverhex Chronicles and two veterans played a hunter and an arcanist. Each of them came out of the game saying that they are going to build characters of those classes.
The downside to the Quests is that you are not seeing many of the unique abilities of the classes at 1st level. I'd love to see a replayable Quest series for 7th level pregen characters that gives you a similar level one equivalent chronicle sheet to start a new character.
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I recently played the two quest series for the first time. While I do appreciate that many players only want to play with a character in which they feel invested, I enjoyed the opportunity to try some of the different pre-gens. We actually did a lot of pre-gen switching between the individual quests and I liked that a lot. Still, allowing people to play their own characters would not preclude the option I enjoyed and so I would support the proposal to allow them to be played with a 0xp character (I agree that the challenge would be severely reduced for characters with more resources).
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This may be considered off-topic, but thinking about playing these with different pre-gens made me think of a question I've had for a little while - is there a plan to remake pre-gens for the Advanced Player Guide iconics? I expect that the summoner would have to be created with Unchained rules now.
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This may be considered off-topic, but thinking about playing these with different pre-gens made me think of a question I've had for a little while - is there a plan to remake pre-gens for the Advanced Player Guide iconics? I expect that the summoner would have to be created with Unchained rules now.
Yes.
Soon.
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This may be considered off-topic, but thinking about playing these with different pre-gens made me think of a question I've had for a little while - is there a plan to remake pre-gens for the Advanced Player Guide iconics? I expect that the summoner would have to be created with Unchained rules now.Yes.
Soon.
Are we there yet?
*bounces up and down*
Are we there yet?
etc...
Also, the idea of 0exp on a character is nice, but I'd humbly submit on my play experience that even .5, 1, 1.5, 2 is not crippling to these Quests. They might open up some options but L1 is L1, even with gear. After all, even with 4PP one cannot buy from the 'Fame Required' list, right?
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I'll throw this out there as a possible argument against imposing the 0XP requirement if these are opened up. For a situation where you're dealing with a 1-2 hour time slot, like a weeknight, if quests are 0XP only, then you can't really run a series of quests with the same character. You could run 3 or 6 sessions of Silverhex, but that same character would not be able to move on to Phantom Phenomena or whatever is released next.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Okay, I feel the need to put down exactly what I am actually looking for. Hopefully this will help shed light on where my arguments come from, with relation to the Quest line.
I feel that the concept of a "delve" or a "quest" or an "encounter" is an awesome way to show people how to play a tabletop RPG game. As mentioned above, you can have it all set up at a convention on a front-and-center table, and when people ask what you're doing you can say, "Hi. Want to see what it's like to play Pathfinder/D&D/Shadowrun? It'll take less than an hour to show you the ropes." As is being proven in many conventions, this model is helping draw a great number of people into the game.
I want the ability to set this up at a local store.
Now, don't get me wrong: I am fully aware that I have that ability already. I merely have to pick a lineup of quests/delves/BeginnerBoxBashes and throw them on my schedule, have a batch of pre-gens ready to hand out, and get the ball rolling. I don't even need to even worry about structure, credit, character rules, or what-have-you. That's why this stuff was developed.
However, a store environment is very different than a convention environment. A convention is pretty much designed as a showcase. People can attend one to immerse themselves in a weekend of non-stop gaming, or attend one merely in an effort to find out "what all the fuss" is about. Sure, some conventions break this mold and begin creating a community out of their attendees (Paizocon, in particular), but most still operate as a showcase environment - a "one and done," if you will, where being noncommittal is not a sin and is actually encouraged.
A store, on the other hand, must foster a community in order to truly thrive. We will learn each others' names, talk about our pets and kids (and politics), and have an expectation of seeing the same people on a regular basis. The "one-and-done" model doesn't work at a store, at least not as a long-term plan.
So, to put the quest/delve/encounter concept to good use in a store, you need a story. You need a series of events that will draw the same crowd back a few times, so that they become a part of that community. D&D Encounters did this phenomenally well. I will not go into details (again), as there is no need to beat a dead horse.
I want to see a Pathfinder lineup that I can implement to the same effect.
Again, I know I already have the ability to do this. I could take the Quests that are available and just put them on the schedule. I can let people play pre-gens, or play custom-built PCs. I can even extend the stories with my own writing, or tag them to an existing module so that things can continue on for a couple months.
The problem with that idea (which, I realize, no one is espousing), is that my existing community of Pathfinder players will have no measurable desire to join in. Any new players coming along will be making all these baby steps by themselves, and while they may end up a part of the store community, overall, they won't be a part of the PFS community in the way that I want to engender. Eventually? Sure. But the process will be much longer and more drawn out, and will ultimately NET far fewer players than something more efficient like what I'm talking about.
So, I want a PFS sanctioned lineup of 1-2 hour adventures (a series of 8-12, ideally) that I can put down on the schedule that will draw in new players, and encourage veteran players to join them by virtue of getting credit in the game campaign they already enjoy. I want a two to three month long, weekly playing session, that will draw all these elements together (new players, old players, players just getting back into the game, and players who do not have the time to commit to 4-hour sessions), and put them all in the same room. My room, by the way: the stores that I care about, and the community that I spend so much effort to foster and grow.
I chose to jump on the "open up quests" train because that train looks like the most likely vehicle to achieve what I want. I know that Paizo doesn't have the ability to develop a new Encounters season every 3-4 months. I know that the PFS resources are already stretched thin. So, I look at the Quests and I see a group of 12 adventures that are already there and, with just a few tweaks, will accomplish what I want. No extra money from Paizo. No concern about lack of credit from veterans. No worry about "too much commitment" from new players. Everyone wins.
Does this help to shed light on why I'm so adamant about this?
I hope so.
I still want to see whether it is possible that Quests get opened up to custom characters. I acknowledge that maybe they are not the best vehicle for that. However, they are the best vehicle that currently exists, with the flexibility to be on both a convention schedule (with pre-gens, only) and on my community's schedule (where it can set up a group of new PFS veterans). As much as I would love to see Paizo write all-new content for this program, I just don't see that in the cards. A little tweak to the existing Quest rules, however, and we have a pilot program. Perhaps its success will convince Paizo to commit a bit more to future versions that will better cross the bridge between what I want and what convention organizers want.
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Lots of pertinent items and then...
A little tweak to the existing Quest rules, however, and we have a pilot program. Perhaps its success will convince Paizo to commit a bit more to future versions that will better cross the bridge between what I want and what convention organizers want.
If such a tweak were to occur, then I could prep Silverhex *much* more easily than the evergreens (imo) to run for my home group, for credit, and to introduce my home group to PFS play slowly, while allowing them to play the characters that they've designed so when we hit the 'meatier/non-evergreen' material it's a fluid transition for both GM (me) and my players.
The important thing to realize in the exceptionally open PFS play organization, is that conventions are *not* the be-all and end-all of the enjoyment of the Society and the camaraderie that comes with it. Whether it be by PbP, VTT, Convention, Game Stores, Home Physical tables, keeping options open (as much as possible) and encouraging a community of play is vital to the continued growth of the organization.
A different campaign I was affiliated with made the restriction of 'only pre-approved Game Days or Conventions'. As a result, that different campaign continued to hemorrhage players as more accessible options and organizations became available.
Could there be bumps? Sure.
But it beats six Crowes at a table roflstomping a series of Quests because the players are trying to burn through it as fast as possible...
*IF* the quest line opened up to custom PCs, people will want to play their PCs through all parts, potentially. Does each part of the Silverhex Chronicles grant something? (I fully admit ignorance, here, as I have yet to read them, despite this discussion).Each quest grants a little bit more, until the completed chronicle gives full rewards. However, the full rewards are equal to any other evergreen option. Even with pregens, I prefer to see people complete the quests in order to not be shorted GP/PP.
I don't know about the other one, but Silverhex can be completed in multiple sessions to get the full sheet value.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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If such a tweak were to occur, then I could prep Silverhex *much* more easily than the evergreens (imo) to run for my home group, for credit, and to introduce my home group to PFS play slowly, while allowing them to play the characters that they've designed so when we hit the 'meatier/non-evergreen' material it's a fluid transition for both GM (me) and my players.
The important thing to realize in the exceptionally open PFS play organization, is that conventions are *not* the be-all and end-all of the enjoyment of the Society and the camaraderie that comes with it. Whether it be by PbP, VTT, Convention, Game Stores, Home Physical tables, keeping options open (as much as possible) and encouraging a community of play is vital to the continued growth of the organization.
100% agree. The right tweak and we're all able to use these the way we each want to use them.