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Google "bump key lockpick". I have seen an untrained person with ~no experience in lockpicking pick a modern lock in about 3 seconds flat with one.Ummm, no. Just no. If you want to pick locks, i.e. opening them with a set of lockpicks and not with a key that fits, you need to do it fast. A trained person using the proper technique, not caring if the lock is damaged, can open most locks very quickly. 5-10 minutes is way off and would make it completely useless. It really is just scrub, scrub, scrub, open in most cases.Picking locks. So much more difficult than it should be, considering how easy it is to break stuff with a crowbar.Well, if you ask a pro, either you have a skeleton key and can do it really fast with simple locks, or you have other tools and it takes 5-10 minutes IF you are good at it.
But Sundering stuff has always been faster then picking it. Sets off more traps and makes a lot more noise, too!
==Aelryinth
So, you're destroying the lock, so it's just a quieter form of Sunder.
I did say Pick it, not file the thing smooth and open it. And picking a lock does take a lot more time then it shows on TV. They skip past the boring parts, I think.
==Aelryinth
Bump keys were invented in the early 20th century. That's a significantly later era of technological development than Golarion or most other fantasy worlds.
Bump keys were invented in the early 20th century. That's a significantly later era of technological development than Golarion or most other fantasy worlds.Google "bump key lockpick". I have seen an untrained person with ~no experience in lockpicking pick a modern lock in about 3 seconds flat with one.Ummm, no. Just no. If you want to pick locks, i.e. opening them with a set of lockpicks and not with a key that fits, you need to do it fast. A trained person using the proper technique, not caring if the lock is damaged, can open most locks very quickly. 5-10 minutes is way off and would make it completely useless. It really is just scrub, scrub, scrub, open in most cases.Picking locks. So much more difficult than it should be, considering how easy it is to break stuff with a crowbar.Well, if you ask a pro, either you have a skeleton key and can do it really fast with simple locks, or you have other tools and it takes 5-10 minutes IF you are good at it.
But Sundering stuff has always been faster then picking it. Sets off more traps and makes a lot more noise, too!
==Aelryinth
So, you're destroying the lock, so it's just a quieter form of Sunder.
I did say Pick it, not file the thing smooth and open it. And picking a lock does take a lot more time then it shows on TV. They skip past the boring parts, I think.
==Aelryinth
They were patented in the 20-th century. Big difference.
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Hitting a dire hyena in the face with a readied action when it stretches its neck out to bite you "only" needs one feat. And 11 BAB.
Myself and others are of the opinion that this shouldn't require any feats.
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They were patented in the 20-th century. Big difference.
Citation for them existing earlier? I'm not finding anything and haven't heard any (even apocryphal) stories about them before that either. And I'm pretty into crime stories.
Besides which, even if they existed for 100 years first (which seems unlikely given how patents work)...Golarion is at a 1600s level of tech at best, so that's still a couple of centuries off.
Blasting.
When you don't stumble to saving throws and limited spells, the amount of resistance you might face will do you in.
Golarion is at a 1600s level of tech at best
Revolvers are 19th century, so are cartridges and powered chainsaws are 20th century.
Etc.
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Keeping away witches.
In the game it requires any number of high level powers like Anti Life Shell or Wall of Force...
In reality (as I learned from Hocus Pocus) it just takes a circle of salt and standing in a cemetery... EASILY done IRL.
Yes, the near worthless nature of firearms mixed with their senseless mechanics, mixed further with the fact they're more expensive than a lot of magic items, is just littered with "things that are harder than they should be".
It's harder than it should be to maim a person. Or anything.
Despite using a giant 2H axe, I can hit a thousand ordinary commoners and kill every one of them in a single blow each, and yet I cannot even chop off a finger or toe or the tip of their nose.
I know of no weapon, no feat, no class ability, no magic item, and no spell that can dismember anything.
How does a butcher carve up the meat?
It's harder than it should be to maim a person. Or anything.
Despite using a giant 2H axe, I can hit a thousand ordinary commoners and kill every one of them in a single blow each, and yet I cannot even chop off a finger or toe or the tip of their nose.
I know of no weapon, no feat, no class ability, no magic item, and no spell that can dismember anything.
How does a butcher carve up the meat?
That's weird because I feel like I have read a healing effect that regrows limbs... Is that ring of regeneration???
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Golarion is at a 1600s level of tech at bestRevolvers are 19th century, so are cartridges and powered chainsaws are 20th century.
Etc.
Don't forget rocket launchers and laser guns. But on average Deadmanwalking is right. The general level of technology is around 1600s, even though you can find higher tech items, they're about as special as magic items.
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Golarion is at a 1600s level of tech at bestRevolvers are 19th century, so are cartridges and powered chainsaws are 20th century.
Etc.
There are rules for revolvers, but there's basically no evidence they can be made without magic in-world. Indeed, to quote:
"Advanced firearms may exist, but only as rare and wondrous items—the stuff of high-level treasure troves."
So we actually don't have proof revolvers exist at all. And single shot pistols and muskets are very much within 1600s technical levels.
And the stuff in Numeria is not understood in the least and really doesn't count, at least in terms of the world's tech level.
I mean, a Numerian lockpick gun is totally an item that should exist in-world, but not something most people have access to or that the default time it takes to Disable Device should be predicated on. Which was what I was discussing.
Google "bump key lockpick". I have seen an untrained person with ~no experience in lockpicking pick a modern lock in about 3 seconds flat with one.Ummm, no. Just no. If you want to pick locks, i.e. opening them with a set of lockpicks and not with a key that fits, you need to do it fast. A trained person using the proper technique, not caring if the lock is damaged, can open most locks very quickly. 5-10 minutes is way off and would make it completely useless. It really is just scrub, scrub, scrub, open in most cases.Picking locks. So much more difficult than it should be, considering how easy it is to break stuff with a crowbar.Well, if you ask a pro, either you have a skeleton key and can do it really fast with simple locks, or you have other tools and it takes 5-10 minutes IF you are good at it.
But Sundering stuff has always been faster then picking it. Sets off more traps and makes a lot more noise, too!
==Aelryinth
So, you're destroying the lock, so it's just a quieter form of Sunder.
I did say Pick it, not file the thing smooth and open it. And picking a lock does take a lot more time then it shows on TV. They skip past the boring parts, I think.
==Aelryinth
That's a modern skeleton key, NOT a lockpick. There's no skill to its use at all. You just stick it in and let the key do the job.
We're talking about picking a lock, not having the perfect tool to satisfy all locks. It's like you're arguing lockpicking is easy because you've got a Chime of Opening with infinite charges, or a Wand of Knock spells.
==Aelryinth
60 reasons and counting to switch to 5E!
<snort> :D
I'm not sure it would be a huge improvement.
Another one: Dodging. Aside from Monks, a 20th level whatever caught with their armored pants down is just as easy to hit as a level 1 whatever.
Sorry to be the "but meh husrulz ken fix so it no prblm!" guy. But I just wanted to say that I've found giving halfBAB as a 'parry' bonus to AC (works like dodge, except it doesn't apply to CMD, rogues and monk treated as fullbab for parry bonus) seems to work fine.
It's harder than it should be to maim a person. Or anything.
Despite using a giant 2H axe, I can hit a thousand ordinary commoners and kill every one of them in a single blow each, and yet I cannot even chop off a finger or toe or the tip of their nose.
I know of no weapon, no feat, no class ability, no magic item, and no spell that can dismember anything.
How does a butcher carve up the meat?
This is the closest i know of in Pathfinder.
"Wolf Savage-You can savage vulnerable foes so badly they become supernaturally disfigured."
Using that a butcher could probably whip up a mean batch of ground beef.
LOL, yeah, if every butcher in Golarion is at least level 9 with a 17 WIS and FOUR feats invested into making hamburger.
(Real answer: butchers are sundering corpses which are treated as objects and anyone can do that at level 1 with no feats or other abilities required, so butchers can actually do their jobs, but still it's pretty much impossible to cut off an orc's finger even if you hit him repeatedly with a magical greataxe - until after you kill him, at which time you can begin sundering him like a butcher.)
I did say Pick it, not file the thing smooth and open it. And picking a lock does take a lot more time then it shows on TV. They skip past the boring parts, I think.
==Aelryinth
Actually no, it would be a very poor lock picker that broke the lock in the process. If you have tools the average padlock or house door lock can be picked in under 15 - 20 seconds, if you know how. A master one a bit longer. The lock will be perfectly functional afterwards as well.
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Actually no, it would be a very poor lock picker that broke the lock in the process. If you have tools the average padlock or house door lock can be picked in under 15 - 20 seconds, if you know how. A master one a bit longer. The lock will be perfectly functional afterwards as well.I did say Pick it, not file the thing smooth and open it. And picking a lock does take a lot more time then it shows on TV. They skip past the boring parts, I think.
==Aelryinth
Given that every round is 6 seconds, and it's a Full Round Action to pick a lock...this is pretty accurate to the way the rules work.
So, 'modern simple locks' can be picked speedily by 'modern simple picking tools'.
How fast would it be to pick a magnetic keycard lock like they have in most hotels nowadays?
naturally assuming you don't have a copy of the keycard.
==Aelryinth
So, 'modern simple locks' can be picked speedily by 'modern simple picking tools'.
How fast would it be to pick a magnetic keycard lock like they have in most hotels nowadays?
naturally assuming you don't have a copy of the keycard.
==Aelryinth
I think you'd be surprised - most can be picked using a strong enough magnet wrapped in a sock in under 3 seconds.
Same thing with digital safes - there are youtube videos on how to do this (look for mr. locksmith), honestly the hardest locks are deadbolts with actual keys, where the bolt is so tight you can't turn it with anything less than the solid key.
Those are very secure - everything else only stop casual things - which is of course the point anyone serious can just use a window if the lock is that hard to get into.
There's some things that are bizarrely difficult in Pathfinder.
1: Jumping high. At level 3, a Wizard can levitate to any height they like. At that level, good luck jumping higher than your height, anyone but a Gnome Monk!
2: Regeneration It is significantly easier to bring someone back from the dead than to restore a missing ear. (Do the rules make any allowances for if they died of decapitation?)
3: Surviving cold weather. By the rules, a skiing holiday is risking death, and a Minnesota winter should be a TPK.
Any others people can think of?
Yes, the rules for raise dead is you have to push the head to the body while they are resurrected or they won't be reattached. Heck, you can reattach cut of limbs or ears while resurrecting.
It's harder than it should be to maim a person. Or anything.
Despite using a giant 2H axe, I can hit a thousand ordinary commoners and kill every one of them in a single blow each, and yet I cannot even chop off a finger or toe or the tip of their nose.
I know of no weapon, no feat, no class ability, no magic item, and no spell that can dismember anything.
Is written somewhere that you don't chop of minor body parts as swing that giant axe around? Sure, the rules sort of implies that you aren't chopping of arms, cause that would interfere with wielding weapons and what-not. But ears and fingers could be flying, up to DM discretion, as HP approaches zero. Heck, even legs could go. At least, I don't remember any rules about being impeded by having only one leg, thus it's possible to assume that loosing a leg is just cosmetics.
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In 1e/2e, there was a weapon called a sword of slicing that could sever individual limbs, but like many things in early editions, there weren't many rules for the mechanical consequences of losing said limbs. It was dropped probably because having an entire limb loss subsystem for effectively one magic item is not worth the word count.
I've also seen critical hit tables that add maiming in to the combat system, but hp is already so abstract, and I've never really seen a detailed critical system that I truly liked.
Hp abstraction is the answer to high level defenses by the way - stabbing a level 1 commoner for 8 points of damage puts him dying on the ground. Stabbing a level 20 naked fighter for 8 points of damage, while nominally still at AC~10, is a slight scratch. The ability to turn "impaled through the chest" into "paper cut" is and increase in defense. Having characters also gain AC from leveling is double dipping on defense. There are some places where hp abstraction falls apart, but ever since 1e the stated design goal of the hp system is to represent additional luck, skill, and protections on the part of high level characters, not more "meat body."
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^In the 1st Edition DMG, it was Sword of Sharpness -- maybe it got renamed to Sword of Slicing in 2nd Edition?
No, it was still Sharpness. It and it's big brother the vorpal sword were the two weapons most capable of taking care of creatures that had versions of DR. You could even damage a demi-lich with them!
And just for those two weapons, rIngs of Regeneration existed which could regrow limbs.
==Aelryinth
Golarion is at a 1600s level of tech at bestRevolvers are 19th century, so are cartridges and powered chainsaws are 20th century.
Etc.
There are rules for revolvers, but there's basically no evidence they can be made without magic in-world. Indeed, to quote:
"Advanced firearms may exist, but only as rare and wondrous items—the stuff of high-level treasure troves."
So we actually don't have proof revolvers exist at all. And single shot pistols and muskets are very much within 1600s technical levels.
And the stuff in Numeria is not understood in the least and really doesn't count, at least in terms of the world's tech level.
I mean, a Numerian lockpick gun is totally an item that should exist in-world, but not something most people have access to or that the default time it takes to Disable Device should be predicated on. Which was what I was discussing.
The earliest weapon called a musket comes for the 1500s and they are improvements on earlier 2-handed guns. You could say that Ultimate Combat calls them muskets so they are muskets but it is well noted in many places that D&D is bad at naming weapons correctly.
Don't mean to attack; people thinking guns are modern (for a given value of modern, yours was closer than most I've seen) is one of my biggest pet peeves in fantasy.
Muskets were the standard firearm up until the American Revolutionary war, when the Americans threw out the papal restriction on using rifles and started sniping off the British with their hunting rifles. Pretty soon, muskets were thrown out the door.
So while rifles were in existence in the 1600's, papal restrictions kept them out of use as 'the devil's weapons'.
As for revolvers...as long as you've got pre-packed cartridges, you can have revolvers. But there's a big difference between blackpowder weapons with spinning muzzles and the revolvers we have with spinning magazines and bullets in brass shells.
==Aelryinth
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It is harder than it should be to set things on fire. Basically you need to use a torch and tell the GM you are trying to do it if you want it to happen. Spells and abilities and alchemical items only do it when it is absolutely the worst thing to have happen to a player at the moment.
If the stuff isn't made out of petrochemical based materials, it's usually hard to burn (and stuff in Golarion isn't made of plastics).
Is written somewhere that you don't chop of minor body parts as swing that giant axe around? Sure, the rules sort of implies that you aren't chopping of arms, cause that would interfere with wielding weapons and what-not. But ears and fingers could be flying, up to DM discretion, as HP approaches zero. Heck, even legs could go. At least, I don't remember any rules about being impeded by having only one leg, thus it's possible to assume that loosing a leg is just cosmetics.
Yes, but it's an unwritten one.
Humans in Pthfinder can have just a few HP, or well over a hundred HP if they're high enough level. No matter their max HP, if you hit them with axes often enough you will eventually get them to zero HP.
At which time they crawl into bed and are FULLY HEALED in just TWO DAYS. No magic, no surgery, no physical therapy.
A real Earth human will never, ever, EVER recover a lost finger or a lost leg with bed rest. Pathfinder humans are not special; they are not magical creatures, they have no magical recuperative powers. While I could argue that you might "house-rule" that you can reattach a severed finger by holding it in place and casting Cure Light Wounds, it's a real big, giant stretch to assume it just happens with bed rest.
So, either Pathfinder humans (and everything else) have UNWRITTEN recuperative powers, or there is an UNWRITTEN rule that HP damage leaves you fully intact, intact enough that you can fully recuperate with two days of bed rest.
More to the point, the actual rules do say the following:
Loss of Hit Points
The most common way that your character gets hurt is to take lethal damage and lose hit points.
What Hit Points Represent
Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.
Effects of Hit Point Damage
Damage doesn't slow you down until your current hit points reach 0 or lower. At 0 hit points, you're disabled.
Disabled (0 Hit Points)
When your current hit point total drops to exactly 0, you are disabled.
You gain the staggered condition and can only take a single move or standard action each turn (but not both, nor can you take full-round actions). You can take move actions without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other strenuous action) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. Unless your activity increased your hit points, you are now at –1 hit points and dying.
Healing that raises your hit points above 0 makes you fully functional again, just as if you'd never been reduced to 0 or fewer hit points.
So, damage causes HP loss. Your HP represent your toughness and your ability to avoid serious injury (I think losing body parts counts as "serious"). Losing HP doesn't slow you down (losing a leg definitely would slow you down - losing any body part would probably slow you down). At 0 HP you are disabled. I italicized the definition of disabled which does not list "losing body parts" in any way. Also, any healing (including 8 hours of rest) restores you to "fully functional" (I'm sure that if you were still missing body parts you would not be described as "fully functional").
Based on all that, it's no stretch at all to say that taking HP damage does not equate to "ears and fingers could be flying, up to DM discretion, as HP approaches zero. Heck, even legs could go."
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It is harder than it should be to set things on fire. Basically you need to use a torch and tell the GM you are trying to do it if you want it to happen. Spells and abilities and alchemical items only do it when it is absolutely the worst thing to have happen to a player at the moment.If the stuff isn't made out of petrochemical based materials, it's usually hard to burn (and stuff in Golarion isn't made of plastics).
Another possible explanation is Golarion having a higher atmospheric pressure (and thus density, but less than the proportionately greater amount of oxygen (although still potentially more than on Earth at sea level), thereby making things harder to burn. This also conveniently helps larger creatures to fly.
* * * * * * * *
For more damage realism, Pathfinder actually has a couple of rules subsystems that don't get used very often:
Wound Thresholds, from Pathfinder Unchained (this adds more gradations than the long span of fully functional to exactly 1 value of Disabled to Dying)
Called Shots, from Ultimate Combat (these still don't reflect random infliction of disability beyond the abstract Hit Point pool, but at least make it possible to inflict on purpose)
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Hp abstraction is the answer to high level defenses by the way - stabbing a level 1 commoner for 8 points of damage puts him dying on the ground. Stabbing a level 20 naked fighter for 8 points of damage, while nominally still at AC~10, is a slight scratch. The ability to turn "impaled through the chest" into "paper cut" is and increase in defense. Having characters also gain AC from leveling is double dipping on defense. There are some places where hp abstraction falls apart, but ever since 1e the stated design goal of the hp system is to represent additional luck, skill, and protections on the part of high level characters, not more "meat body."Why a Cure Light Wounds spell can bring someone who is dying on the ground back to near full health doesn't even close up all the scratches on a high level fighter. How you become good at dodging the ground when you fall great distances. Why a character develops the skill to make someone attacking in ways they can't conceive of still be unable to disable them in one shot. Why there should be any spells/magic that entirely bypasses the abstraction and directly kill, cripple, maim, and disable when the same effects are barely possible mundanely.
Yep, you've identified the major places where the hp system does have issues. It's a decent example of a how a game mechanic doesn't always meet its stated design intentions. And now it's saddled with a bunch of legacy stuff and the fact that decades of different designers and writers have used their own personal interpretations expanding on it.
I will point out that most Save or Die effects in Pathfinder actually just do a bunch of damage now. It's a rare effect that lets you skip hp entirely.
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No, it was still Sharpness. It and it's big brother the vorpal sword were the two weapons most capable of taking care of creatures that had versions of DR. You could even damage a demi-lich with them!
And just for those two weapons, rIngs of Regeneration existed which could regrow limbs.
==Aelryinth
That and the regenerate spell. I really miss the sword of sharpness. I've been complaining about not having it for going on 15 years now.
So while rifles were in existence in the 1600's, papal restrictions kept them out of use as 'the devil's weapons'.
Does that really make sense, what with half of Europe being protestant way earlier than the American revolution?
Also, any healing (including 8 hours of rest) restores you to "fully functional" (I'm sure that if you were still missing body parts you would not be described as "fully functional").
I know very well that humans, in Golarion or in the real world, doesn’t regrow lost body parts.
Why wouldn't you be "fully functional" even after losing a body part? Does loosing an eye, a finger, an ear give you any sort of rules malus that prevents you from being just as competent as the next guy? Sure, loosing a leg is a stretch, but even then - if I describe my pirate as having a peg-leg, the game rules doesn’t tell me "ah, but you'll get minus 5 ft. movement" or anything. So my pirate is still fully functional.
Thus, I conclude that I'm free to describe almost anything happening when you're damaged.
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Except, if you extend that to the obvious conclusion, with "ears and fingers could be flying" applied to all combats, a character could be completely out of ears and fingers by the time he hits level 2, certainly level 3.
If it's only done occasionally, say, once per boss fight with, say, exactly one boss per character level, then even if you restrict it to fingers and ears, a character will lose all 10 fingers and both ears before they reach 13th level and can cast Regenerate (but now they can't cast it because they can't do the somatic components).
In fact, long before that, they probably don't have enough fingers left to hold their weapons.
Unless you're expecting near-fingerless heroes to pop into local temples and purchase Regenerate spells two or three times in their early to mid adventuring careers.
None of which is consistent with anything said in the HP rules I quoted in my last post.
Yes, you're free to describe whatever you want, but the way you're suggesting to describe it is very inconsistent with the actual rules.
So while rifles were in existence in the 1600's, papal restrictions kept them out of use as 'the devil's weapons'.Does that really make sense, what with half of Europe being protestant way earlier than the American revolution?
Also, any healing (including 8 hours of rest) restores you to "fully functional" (I'm sure that if you were still missing body parts you would not be described as "fully functional").I know very well that humans, in Golarion or in the real world, doesn’t regrow lost body parts.
Why wouldn't you be "fully functional" even after losing a body part? Does loosing an eye, a finger, an ear give you any sort of rules malus that prevents you from being just as competent as the next guy? Sure, loosing a leg is a stretch, but even then - if I describe my pirate as having a peg-leg, the game rules doesn’t tell me "ah, but you'll get minus 5 ft. movement" or anything. So my pirate is still fully functional.
Thus, I conclude that I'm free to describe almost anything happening when you're damaged.
Well, the guys who made rifles in early America were generally Germans, so what does that tell you?
Rifles were like crossbows...something that made it easier to harm nobles, and poach. Knight in armor? dead. So, yeah, most governments agreed with the ban. It was your anti-religious sorts who endorsed guns...and, if you will remember, America was THE destination for all sorts of people running from religious oppression.
But, yeah, the church did a whole test with bullets and everything to determine the sanctity of the rifle. Alas, they used blessed silver bullets carved with crosses instead of nice simple heavy lead bullets, and the lead bullets were tons more accurate then the blessed silver ones because of it. Obviously a tool of the devil! ban, ban, ban!!!
==Aelryinth
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Muskets were the standard firearm up until the American Revolutionary war, when the Americans threw out the papal restriction on using rifles and started sniping off the British with their hunting rifles. Pretty soon, muskets were thrown out the door.
So while rifles were in existence in the 1600's, papal restrictions kept them out of use as 'the devil's weapons'.
This isn't accurate.
Well, technically, I'd need to see the research to know whether there was a papal decree. I have no actual knowledge of that one way or the other (though I hadn't ever heard of it and am thus skeptical).
But it wasn't the reason the musket was used rather than the rifle up well through the American Revolution. That was because of rate of fire. See, all commonly used firearms were muzzle-loaders in that time period...and that made reloading a smoothbore gun way faster than reloading a rifled one (think of it like driving a nail vs. putting in a screw).
Rifles were indeed better for sniping and hunting, but with a terrible rate of fire they were well-nigh worthless in field battles due to one accurate shot not being nearly as good at a massed foe as several inaccurate ones (and their part in the American Revolution is often vastly exaggerated).
Rifles came into more common usage as the Minié ball (invented in the mid 1800s) helped with the loading problem, and later became ubiquitous as breech-loaders replaced muzzle-loaders, solving the problem entirely.
As for revolvers...as long as you've got pre-packed cartridges, you can have revolvers. But there's a big difference between blackpowder weapons with spinning muzzles and the revolvers we have with spinning magazines and bullets in brass shells.
Revolvers are pretty easy once you have breech-loading as a concept and are using it. Before that, a pepperbox is the best you can do since you're muzzle-loading. Breech-loaders came along quite a while after guns as a concept.
And yes, paper cartridges were used in muzzle-loaded weapons long before the Minié ball.
I tried to find a copy of the original story on Google, can't seem to locate it.
I read that story in the orignal Book of Lists way back when, 'Weapons that changed the world.'
==Aelryinth
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I tried to find a copy of the original story on Google, can't seem to locate it.
I read that story in the orignal Book of Lists way back when, 'Weapons that changed the world.'
Like I said, I can't comment on the Papal Decree, just on the practicalities that even Protestants would pay attention to.
I do know the Japanese banned guns for a while for almost exactly the reasons you cite, so it's not completely implausible that something similar was done in Europe at some point. I'd just expect to have heard of it.
Is there a reason there aren't any long gun revolvers (that I know of)?