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It's just something that bugged me.
By the flavor, the wizard spends his time poring over tomes and researching spells to create studied magic effects, with more skilled and more intelligent wizards researching into new methods of spellcasting and tailoring magic to their needs.
By the flavor of the sorcerer, she has magic in her blood. These primal energies manifest themselves in the sorcerer, who instinctively just comes to know different magical spells.
Mechanically, the sorcerer gets to choose her spells, but is it that way thematically? Does the sorcerer get to see magic performed and then learn it? If so, how does she do it? She doesn't study a spellbook, and she doesn't prepare spells ahead of time. Does the blood in the sorcerer just go out on a little walk and read over the shoulder of an unsuspecting wizard, gaining the knowledge of a desired spell?
I think that by flavor the sorcerer and wizard should have different spell lists, because it just doesn't quite make sense to me that the sorcerer instincts somehow duplicate the practiced study and careful research of the wizard's craft. I feel like the magic of the sorcerer's spells themselves should be of a more primal theme, and the magic of a wizard should be more deliberate and practiced. As opposed to a catch-all pool of spells.
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Sorcerer spellcasting says:
A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list presented in Spell Lists.All the while the wizard only has:
A wizard casts arcane spells drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list presented in Spell Lists.
This implies sorcerers can get spells that aren't on the sorcerer/wizard spell list.
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These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.
I like to allow sorcerers to pick up bloodline-themed spells from other lists.
Sorcerer spellcasting says:
A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list presented in Spell Lists.All the while the wizard only has:A wizard casts arcane spells drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list presented in Spell Lists.This implies sorcerers can get spells that aren't on the sorcerer/wizard spell list.
It also says
These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study
So some sort of study is involved.
Edit: ninjad by the Reaver
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These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.I like to allow sorcerers to pick up bloodline-themed spells from other lists.
Same. I'd love to get to play under a GM who would do the same.
I'm currently trying to convince my Reign of Winter GM to let my winter witch learn simulacrum.
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Hmm. As I think about it, bloodline spells kinda fit the idea of sorcerer spellcasting perfectly.
Does that mean a sorcerer is actually actively looking into spellcasting, and chooses pure magic and thus the same study as a wizard? In this way, instincts combine with research to duplicate wizardry.
In fact, the idea that bloodlines can be gained through other means that don't make you a pure sorcerer, such as bloodrager or eldritch heritage, suggests that to be a sorcerer you must both have magic in your blood AND you must be studiously pursuing unleasing the fullest potential of that magic.
I kinda like the idea that it shares the wizard spell list a lot more now.
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I think it's more likely that the wizard is copying the sorcerer rather than the sorcerer studying wizardry + innate talent.
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I don't think the sorcerer is just sitting at dinner one night, saying, "Hey, would you pass the potatoes? Oh, and wow, I just noticed that I can cast Burning Hands!"
I suspect for sorcerers that it starts out like it does in many fantasy novels: one day a kid discovers, quite by accident, that he can do something magical. It's tiny, maybe lighting a candle or sliding a coin across the floor. Puny stuff. But then he plays with it, practices it, finds new applications for it, and his power grows until it becomes something more like an actual spell that can make a difference in the world.
Just having the blood doesn't mean "Woah! I know Kung-fu!". It takes some work.
So the sorcerer works toward magical effects that either interest him or fit his bloodline (hopefully both, but usually just the former). While a wizard is studying dusty books all day every day for months to figure out how to cast Burning Hands, the sorcerer is practicing lighting candles over and over until he gets a bigger flame.
But, in the end, they're both bound by arcane laws of physics (or physical laws of arcania), and their end result conforms to those limits: the best they can do is 1d4 of damage in a 15' cone.
With that spell.
For now.
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That and honestly, the last thing this game needs is ANOTHER spell list... Otherwise this game will suffer the same issue Wizards of the Coast did with 3.5, every freakin class had its own spell list and eventually, many classes never got any new spells because they were just too many spell lists to keep track of.
It's just something that bugged me.
By the flavor, the wizard spends his time poring over tomes and researching spells to create studied magic effects, with more skilled and more intelligent wizards researching into new methods of spellcasting and tailoring magic to their needs.
By the flavor of the sorcerer, she has magic in her blood. These primal energies manifest themselves in the sorcerer, who instinctively just comes to know different magical spells.
Mechanically, the sorcerer gets to choose her spells, but is it that way thematically? Does the sorcerer get to see magic performed and then learn it? If so, how does she do it? She doesn't study a spellbook, and she doesn't prepare spells ahead of time. Does the blood in the sorcerer just go out on a little walk and read over the shoulder of an unsuspecting wizard, gaining the knowledge of a desired spell?
I think that by flavor the sorcerer and wizard should have different spell lists, because it just doesn't quite make sense to me that the sorcerer instincts somehow duplicate the practiced study and careful research of the wizard's craft. I feel like the magic of the sorcerer's spells themselves should be of a more primal theme, and the magic of a wizard should be more deliberate and practiced. As opposed to a catch-all pool of spells.
I give them a lot of choice but I would prefer if their spells were around a certain type of concept or set of abilities. Of course with useful generic spells thrown in if that is what they want.
A wizard can of course specialise in such a manner, but don't they want to broaden out and not restrict themselves to so few spells?
There is/was a feat in WotC's 3.5 Magic of Faerun called Spell Thematics. It added a bump to the Spellcraft DC to identify the mage's spells, but it also let them design a modified look for each spell. For example, a nagaji mage's magic missile bolts might appear as flying serpents of force, or acid arrow as a serpent dripping caustic "venom". The spells otherwise remained the same.
Perhaps a sorcerer's bloodline spells or one other new spell per level might have their own customized thematic appearances to evoke the path of self-discovery taken by the sorcerer?
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I also call that refluffing and encourage it amongst my players. That said, I also don't make them spend a feat on it. I really don't get why someone would need a mechanic for that either honestly. It's not like you're changing the spell mechanics or effect, usually in our games its done as a matter of theme and for 'coolness'.
That and honestly, the last thing this game needs is ANOTHER spell list... Otherwise this game will suffer the same issue Wizards of the Coast did with 3.5, every freakin class had its own spell list and eventually, many classes never got any new spells because they were just too many spell lists to keep track of.
I agree with that. Sure i would have liked if sorcerer bloodlines got a small list of bloodline spells to choose from and/or got their bloodline spells (and feats) revised once every two years but i can understand how that is very hard to do.
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That and honestly, the last thing this game needs is ANOTHER spell list... Otherwise this game will suffer the same issue Wizards of the Coast did with 3.5, every freakin class had its own spell list and eventually, many classes never got any new spells because they were just too many spell lists to keep track of.I agree with that. Sure i would have liked if sorcerer bloodlines got a small list of bloodline spells to choose from and/or got their bloodline spells (and feats) revised once every two years but i can understand how that is very hard to do.
At the very least, it would be nice if wildblooded bloodlines tweaked the bonus spells the way subdomains do.
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I think it's more likely that the wizard is copying the sorcerer rather than the sorcerer studying wizardry + innate talent.
Fairly simple explanation- wizard spells are born from the centuries of studying the natural spellcasting of sorcerers, possibly out of envy for their power.
Sure, there are spells that are specific to that sorcerer's source of power, but the general spells that are gained from raw magic power are generally consistent, and wizards studied how to work with that raw arcane power via more algorithmic practices (while sorcerers are largely heuristic casters).
Of course, other arcane casters have different lists. That is typically born due to the limitations of their power source (ie- witch patrons) or perhaps limitations of their methods (a magus mostly focuses on quick to do direct spells).
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Depending on the game and the person running it your sorcerers could use wordcasting or primal magic to represent a less "learned" type of magic.
I've always just felt that a sorcerer feels the magic in them, and the spells are them trying to express that magical feeling. Sorcerer feels "burn", and so expresses spark. But that's not quite exactly what she means, so she keeps trying to express it and gets to burning hands. It's an exploration into expressing yourself and exerting your desires on the world.
I still want a cha based spontaneous caster with the druid spell list.
I still think the magus should have gotten the wizard's spell list.
I think the sorcerer should have gotten there bloodline spells much earlier like when they got spells of those levels. I also wish they got bloodline powers at level 6 and 12.
I wish there was a way to get bloodline-themed spells (officially) added to there class list built into class or at least as a feat.
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I also call that refluffing and encourage it amongst my players. That said, I also don't make them spend a feat on it. I really don't get why someone would need a mechanic for that either honestly. It's not like you're changing the spell mechanics or effect, usually in our games its done as a matter of theme and for 'coolness'.
Same in my games any spell reflects a combination of the caster and the spell so for example a fire spell might make anything from a blue flame to a red one depending on the nature of the caster and the spell but its not going to appear as a spray of leaves. However once the spells apperance is picked it remains fixed and looks the same each time they cast it.
There is/was a feat in WotC's 3.5 Magic of Faerun called Spell Thematics. It added a bump to the Spellcraft DC to identify the mage's spells, but it also let them design a modified look for each spell. For example, a nagaji mage's magic missile bolts might appear as flying serpents of force, or acid arrow as a serpent dripping caustic "venom". The spells otherwise remained the same.
Perhaps a sorcerer's bloodline spells or one other new spell per level might have their own customized thematic appearances to evoke the path of self-discovery taken by the sorcerer?
I allow refluff, it comes from their soul and essence after all, and wouldn't appear the same as the bog-standard wizard version. Over the versions of dnd there has been talk of wizards customising the appearance of their spells as well.
I think it's more likely that the wizard is copying the sorcerer rather than the sorcerer studying wizardry + innate talent.Fairly simple explanation- wizard spells are born from the centuries of studying the natural spellcasting of sorcerers, possibly out of envy for their power.
Sure, there are spells that are specific to that sorcerer's source of power, but the general spells that are gained from raw magic power are generally consistent, and wizards studied how to work with that raw arcane power via more algorithmic practices (while sorcerers are largely heuristic casters).
Of course, other arcane casters have different lists. That is typically born due to the limitations of their power source (ie- witch patrons) or perhaps limitations of their methods (a magus mostly focuses on quick to do direct spells).
In other settings like dark souls, sorcery is called pyromancy (not only fire, but often fire-related) and it is indeed the natural, primitive and early form of spellcasting. Wizardry is younger and split into many schools and divisions but overall forms a separate tradition of its own but you can be sure that when they have power and authority over the swamp pyromancers, they are quite prejudiced towards them.
City-folk in their academies are racist against the magic of the swamp people, tsk tsk tsk.
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Because while magic is unpredictable and versatile, there is only so much ways to use it effectively.
Wizards studied demons and their ability to teleport and invented teleportation spells.
Sorcerer's grandmother had fun with incubus once, so he got teleportation powers naturally.
But essentially its the same thing.
If we were going to have a Pathfinder 2.0, I wouldn't mind having trimmed core spell lists for Arcanist Wizard, Sorcerer, Witch, Cleric, and Oracle (and others), with more themed spells (as opposed to at most 1 per spell level of 1 per spell level per domain) added (or upgraded if already on the core list) by Arcane School, Bloodline, Patron (which should also be more than just a list of spells), Domain, or Mystery.
I dislike bloodlines as I hate the entire concept of prepared casting that isn't even true to it's namesake (not really vancian despite being called vancian).
I pick sorcerers and play them as wizards that learned spontaneous techniques vs prepared techniques, or similar to the difference between a concert violinist who studies strictly against a fiddler who plays endlessly rather than studying, both get good, but one has more technical expertise while the other just "feels" their way through.
Though it is worth keeping in mind that a wizard pretty much MUST have spellcraft to learn new spells, a sorcerer can learn new spells without a single rank in spellcraft or knowledge (arcana).
The magic will come to the sorcerer, regardless of whether the sorcerer has any clue what she's doing.
(Heh. Though a spellcraftless sorcerer may have to chuck a new spell a couple times just to get a handle on what it actually does.)
In character, you could easily go with the sorcerer having no real control over how her magic develops (even if the player is still directing it on the meta level).
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Here's my fluff on arcane casting:
A spell effect is generated by a combination of V(erbal), S(omatic), and M(aterial) components as we all know but there is also a mental component, which when disrupted is where we get our concentration check. In order to cast any spell, at bare minimum you have to have this mental component met. I fluff this as magic being a fundamental force, like gravity, electromagnetism, weak and strong force. Our consciousness is the link between this magic force and how it is formed into an effect in the physical world. The mental or concentration component of a spell, then, is actually how our consciousness is able to form the magic force into a specific effect. The formula for any given effect, therefore, is a combination of the standard V,S, and M components in conjunction with this additional mental component. Think of it like the Patronus spell in the Harry Potter books. You have to grab onto a particularly happy emotion to fuel the spell. No happy thought, no spell. This in addition to the words, with proper inflection, the swing of the wand, etc.
Knowing the VSM portion isn't sufficient. If Fred Fighter picks up Willy Wizard's spellbook and opens to the first page where the Light cantrip is located, in my universe he would see notes in Willy's handwriting outlining the rules of the spell. The VSM portion would be pretty much identical from spellbook to spellbook and Fred could, if he understood the language Willy used, absolutely mimic this part. But Fred has no training for the mental component and a significant portion of Willy's notes would be how to obtain said state of mind for that specific spell in a way that is quite specific to Willy. Again, going back to the Patronus spell, thinking of Harry's parents wouldn't help Ron. Ron needs his own method of achieving that happy place.
The wizard has no inborn magic fuel flowing through his veins, so he studies. He uses first principles and scientific method to extrapolate how to achieve a specific effect. If creating a new spell, he documents his research in his spellbook. If copying from another spellbook, he adjusts the spell's mental component notes to work for him. The chance of failure is a result of being unable to translate that mental aspect to a state of mind the wizard knows how to achieve. Preparing a spell involves studying the spellbook and then pre-casting everything but the final trigger which involves the combination of VSM plus that mental component. Combining those four parts completes the circuit, releasing the magical energy in the desired manner. Metamagic effects would need to be incorporated at the time of preparation because the wizard lacks an innate feel for how to adjust the spell on the fly and so must incorporate the adjustment during that preparation time. A mortal consciousness is only able to contain so many such untriggered magic effects simultaneously, a limit that gradually rises as the wizard gains experience, explaining the increase in spell slots over time.
The sorcerer has inborn magic fuel, and operates intuitively. He has an intrinsic ability to "feel" the flow of magic because genetically he has some sort of additional capability that has permanently and subtly altered his consciousness. By feeling their way through this flow of magic they can instinctively determine how to produce certain spell effects. A sorcerer mentally sniffs around, sensing how to produce new spell effects all the time. But their interest focuses in only so many directions until they finally manage to learn how to produce a few new spell effects. This represents their gaining new spells when they level. In some cases the sorcerer has neglected to refresh in their mind how to create a particular spell effect, instead focusing on a spell effect they hadn't been capable of previously, explaining spell swaps on certain levels. Moreover, where the wizard must prepare the spell, going through part of the incantation during preparation in order to begin engaging the magic flow, keeping it pent up until release, the sorcerer has a tap directly into the magic force. But this tap can only allow so much throughput in any given period of time before rest is required to allow further access. Over time, as the sorcerer becomes more in tune with their consciousness, they also grow the ability to invoke more magic energy in a given day, explaining the sorcerer's spells per day going up. When casting a spell, the sorcerer need only complete the final trigger bits and can even forego the M(aterial) components for most spells, relying not on a prepared spell that had already captured the necessary magical energy and left it waiting to be completed but instead on their innate magical tap to fuel the spell. Metamagic feats represent the sorcerer learning a new trick they know how to apply to their spells when cast, like adding an additional effect when singing. Because the triggering is the only part of the spell the sorcerer need enact, metamagic can be incorporated on the fly.
Whence, then, 'Read Magic'? Read Magic gives a temporary ability to gain an intuitive insight into how magic is invoked. It enables the caster, when contemplating magic and reviewing instructions on how to cast a spell, to bridge the gap between the instructions as written, including the mental component, and the spell effect to be produced, and allows the caster to at least attempt to determine how to achieve the correct state of mind for a given spell. For a wizard it is virtually a requirement in order to research or copy new spells. For a sorcerer it provides temporary access to spells already written that they might not already know how to cast, but won't help them learn the spell permanently.
That's how I relate the two casters. Obviously arcanists combine the two aspects. Hope this helps.
That and honestly, the last thing this game needs is ANOTHER spell list... Otherwise this game will suffer the same issue Wizards of the Coast did with 3.5, every freakin class had its own spell list and eventually, many classes never got any new spells because they were just too many spell lists to keep track of.
And many of them wind up being duplicates of the same spell, just a different name.
Q, how do you compare the bard to this?
I kinda like how you describe it, though I wouldn't add the genetic componant, instead just treating it like a talent, much as some folks just have a good feel for music while others must carefully train.
Here's my fluff on arcane casting:
{. . .}
Wow . . . that sounds really, um, quintessential. :-)
It also fits in really well with the canonical concept of Sin Magic (Thassilonian Specialists). A Bardic extension is just a bit more work, using art to get the right state of mind to get the other components to work. (Although to make this part of the picture complete, we need at least a Mime Bard archetype.)
Q, how do you compare the bard to this?
I kinda like how you describe it, though I wouldn't add the genetic componant, instead just treating it like a talent, much as some folks just have a good feel for music while others must carefully train.
UnArcaneElection mirrored my thinking on the bard though you raise a good point about the genetic aspect. Is it obvious I've never played a bard nor has anyone ever played one in my campaigns? :)
So to adjust my stance a bit, drop the genetic aspect. I would agree it becomes more of a talent issue. Some folks have a knack for finding localized maxima of magic energy nearby and are able to tap into that directly rather than needing to weave it together beforehand. In essence a prepared caster collects magic energy at the time of preparation using a specific recipe, whereas a spontaneous caster delays that collection until the moment of casting and have a knack for how to collect it.
This makes more sense when you consider those who dip into a spontaneous caster class. It turns out they had that knack all along and it only developed at that time to the point they could begin casting spells of the appropriate spell list, etc.
^No need to drop the genetic aspect, but let epigenetic aspects play a prominent (not necessarily dominant) role as well -- hence the possibility of getting an Infernal Bloodline due to an Infernal Pact, even if none of your ancestors are Devils.
What about scrolls
What about scrolls
Interesting question. Taking the 'Scribe Scroll' feat (or receiving it as a class feat as a wizard) indicates you've researched how to pull together magic energy, mix in appropriate components, and imprint that energy onto a scroll. Those with the appropriate skills or spells can later provide the final trigger to release the imprinted energy, unleashing the spell effect and diffusing the energy from the scroll.
That said, although I have some idea of how I like the fluff to work for this it's actually never come up as an issue we needed to explore in game. It's mostly just been a thought exercise to improve consistency of the game world in my mind. So it's possible (likely?) you or someone else is going to come up with something that blows a hole in my construct. :)
I've always thought of it as the Sorcerer exerting their will on the magic in them. Focusing and pushing the arcane energy in a way until it manifests itself in the form of the spell they want to learn. Doing so takes time and energy (between adventures), that's why their list of spells known is so small.
I will be posting an article on this soon accounting for sorcery, bards, wizards, items, scrolls, verbal and somatic componants, etc.
If anyone is interested. You can also pm me with other aspects of magic to be explored if you want.
Something else to consider,
Who says that any spell in the book is always the same spell?
For example, one wizard's Magic Missile is a giant hand that flies out and slaps someone, while another caster's Magic Missile is a glowing, flying snake hat wraps around and squeezes the target, while a third caster's Magic Missile is an arrow that says "Patriot Arrow" on the side and homes in on a target. Each of these may use the same mechanics, but in character they would be three distinct and separate spells.
I finished the last thing I was doing, so once I'm done finishing a character, I'll start my article. I didn't really intend to bring the whole thread to a stop you know.
^Wait, I thought I was the only one that killed threads by posting in them . . . .
^Wait, I thought I was the only one that killed threads by posting in them . . . .
I'm so very tempted to let you be the last post in this topic.
...
wait.
I'd be very tempted to allow a sorcerer to swap in the mental and emotional focuses, and lose verbal and somatic components to cast their magic, as a psychic from Occult Adventures. It feels more accurate to the lore.
So give them free silent and still spell? Also to remove the 'you can't wear armor' thing entirely?
I think it is the opposite actually. I think a sorcerer would be even MORE dependant on physical movement in order to do their spells. They have to shake it out of themselves. They have to spit out the magic along with words. Since their magic is so tied to their very state of being, they tie the magical processes to their biological ones.
Or that they get weird habits and requirements for their spells because they BELIEVE they are needed. It is a psychosomatic/superstitious thing- if you BELIEVE you can't do magic without the lucky rabbits foot, then you can't.
I'd rather see that as an add-on or selection, such as the Madness Magic from the 3.0 AEG book "Magic" which does that.
Really, this is why I don't like classes. I want spontaneous casting, but I want a system where you can do other things when selecting magic style. You might have a choice between preparation and spontaneous, arcane and divine, int/wis/cha, materials and foci variances, formal and superstitious, scientific and mystical, etc. Each could have it's own effect on your magic casting before you even get to spell selection.
I.E. prepared casting has the advantage of more spells known, while spontaneous casting can have faster casting.