Ultimate Intrigue - Vigilante


Ultimate Intrigue Playtest General Discussion

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I am wondering what people are expecting from this class?

I am looking forward to more of a manipulator, both in social and combat situations. During the RPG Design Workshop at PaizoCon (no NDA this year due to June playtest), it seems many of the people there were looking forward to a type of super rogue. I found the idea of multiple paths to be nifty, as more options for each class are a plus. And face it, a party consisting of arcane, divine, martial, and rogue based vigilantes would be gnarly.

The ideas discussed seem to make the vigilante more focused on staying in one location, which I think is pretty nice. One of the things I think I wouldn't like about the class is the number of people who would potentially know the identity of the vigilante. Here's to crossing my fingers to the low Will save character not getting charmed.

Also, the Robber Baron of Abadar must be a thing...


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I'm Batman.


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Be both a serial killer and the detective chasing him.

Don't tell my party in-character, bring it up constantly out-of-character.

Murder important NPCs for kicks.

Forced to find new PF group.


Honestly, between Rogue (unchained), Inquisitor, Investigator, Slayer, and Ranger I imagine it will be a difficult class to design. So many possible rivals for this role.

Liberty's Edge

I'm interested in the nature of the role change between the two identities. I'd hope for the ability to gain bonuses to, say, social stuff in one and combat stuff in the other, for example. Or social bonuses in one identity and spell-casting in the other.

Speaking of which, I'd also like to see options for spellcasting and non-spellcasting versions of the Class that are actually pretty well balanced. Something that historically hasn't been Paizo's strong suit (I'm looking at you, Sleuth), but I hold out high hopes nonetheless.


Vigilante makes me thing of someone like Batman or an action hero who takes the law into his own hands. Maybe the retired special ops guy who is forced out of retirement trope is a good example.

I would say they might have connections to shady people, be really tough, good in unarmed combat and with weapons, maybe they can use intimidate as if it is diplomacy. I dont know what else.


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The Scarlet Pimpernel sounds about right.

Harmless fop by day, and bold scoundrel by night.

Sink Me! I'm a poet!


I'm expecting something along the lines of a mundane Inquisitor with some gadgets that do spell-like effects.


Adam B. 135 wrote:
Honestly, between Rogue (unchained), Inquisitor, Investigator, Slayer, and Ranger I imagine it will be a difficult class to design. So many possible rivals for this role.

The game mechanics of the class, with the two personality/alias setup should leave this well different and distinct from any of those other bundles of mechanics you mention...


This is one class that seems very easily covered by existing classes/archetypes in the game already, and I'm not sure about the alignment shifting, simply because alignment doesn't really seem to have much in-game application (particularly in my games).

That said, I've been quite surprised by what Paizo has done with other concepts that seemingly were already covered (Arcanist, for one) and like more social/RP classes, so I am intrigued. (Appropriately enough for a book called Ultimate Intrigue.)

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

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I'd like to see the two personae of the class to work like essentially having two characters, but you need to tag team between them (probably with restrictions on how quickly/often you can switch). To offset having the flexibility of two completely different classes, I'd expect to have some balancing factor, like being a level behind in each, or having a delayed progression on certain aspects of each class (possibly the features that unchained lets you get with variant multi-classing).


I'd imagine some class abilities that enhance disguise, with training in overcoming detection magic.

Also, some way of being inspiring while 'on the job'.

Scarab Sages

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Adam B. 135 wrote:
Honestly, between Rogue (unchained), Inquisitor, Investigator, Slayer, and Ranger I imagine it will be a difficult class to design. So many possible rivals for this role.
The game mechanics of the class, with the two personality/alias setup should leave this well different and distinct from any of those other bundles of mechanics you mention...

But not so distinct from the Mysterious Avenger Swashbuckler, that already does a great job of having a Secret Identity and was based on Zorro and the Scarlet Pimpernel.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well, there was some (possibly out-of-date) information linked here.

Garrett Guillotte wrote:

Sunday Design Workshop news, all of which may already be out of date as the class is under active development and the point of the Workshop was to get feedback on early concepts:

Vigilante would have a 3/4 BAB base, 6 + Int skill ranks/level. You have a social persona (ie. Bruce Wayne) who, with time and effort, can turn into their vigilante persona (ie. Batman) with a different alignment one step from their social persona's alignment. (Higher-level abilities allow you to flip personas faster, ie. Superman's phone booth, but with a potential disadvantage for rushing the switch.)

The social persona gains social benefits in places where they spend more time (a level of improved attitude was mentioned); at the same time, you're spreading rumors about the vigilante persona that make it more fearsome to the same neighborhood. Think Peter Parker selling photos of Spider-man, or Clark Kent writing about Superman. The scope of this effect increases with level, so you might be famous in Hell's Kitchen at low levels and across an entire city district or city at high levels. Might be class abilities that let you move this effect around temporarily.

Class abilities can help convert or spoof skills in the personas to avoid forcing you to spread skill ranks around too much. You shouldn't have to split ranks in Bluff to maintain your social personal with ranks in Acrobatics to run around rooftops.

The personas are mechanically different people. Bruce Wayne ceases to exist when he's Batman, even to scrying and such effects. The exception is if you already know or can somehow detect the connection between the personas. There were discussions but nothing final about abilities to defend against this, like being able to clone your social persona while going vigilante or getting a +20 to Bluff or Disguise checks against attempts to expose the connection. The class is designed on the assumption that your adventuring party knows your secret identity, but that's not required (which should make for some interesting RP).

The four specializations differentiate and flavor the vigilante different ways. You could go all Captain Andoran or Aldori Zorro as a costumed fighting vigilante, or Wiscrani Batman as a rogue-like vigilante, or a secret inquisitor-ish divine vigilante, or a secret mystic arcane vigilante. They didn't rule out psychic vigilantes, it's just too early in the process since OA isn't officially out. And yes, this is theoretically the magical girl/sentai class.

Vigilantes aren't limited to Good alignments—all of those could be Evil (upstanding citizen in public, brutal enforcer or thief or serial killer in private). At the same time, this isn't limited to the superhero/supervillain class. You could pull a Henry Jones/Indiana Jones duality, or expand how you model werecreatures, perhaps archetypes for several competing personalities.

Lots of jokes that the iconic vigilante will be one of the existing iconics in a costume, but that obviously won't be the case, right? *wink*

So, unlike the Mysterious Stranger, not purely a good alignment, seems to have some class abilities to let them fake some kinds of skills, and some specializations to help customize things, looks like they might basically be 'martial', 'stealth', 'divine', and 'arcane'? I'm certainly interested, and apparently the open playtest is supposed to be not too far off...


So...it's a non-PrC Master Chymist?

Probably with different flavor, but still delicious.


JoelF847 wrote:
I'd like to see the two personae of the class to work like essentially having two characters, but you need to tag team between them (probably with restrictions on how quickly/often you can switch). To offset having the flexibility of two completely different classes, I'd expect to have some balancing factor, like being a level behind in each, or having a delayed progression on certain aspects of each class (possibly the features that unchained lets you get with variant multi-classing).

I think it would be fun if the class is for characters that are within peeing distance of being a little crazy. Random things they won't let themselves do while in the wrong persona, or talking to the other persona in a mirror.


Luthorne wrote:

Well, there was some (possibly out-of-date) information linked here.

Garrett Guillotte wrote:

Sunday Design Workshop news, all of which may already be out of date as the class is under active development and the point of the Workshop was to get feedback on early concepts:

Vigilante would have a 3/4 BAB base, 6 + Int skill ranks/level. You have a social persona (ie. Bruce Wayne) who, with time and effort, can turn into their vigilante persona (ie. Batman) with a different alignment one step from their social persona's alignment. (Higher-level abilities allow you to flip personas faster, ie. Superman's phone booth, but with a potential disadvantage for rushing the switch.)

The social persona gains social benefits in places where they spend more time (a level of improved attitude was mentioned); at the same time, you're spreading rumors about the vigilante persona that make it more fearsome to the same neighborhood. Think Peter Parker selling photos of Spider-man, or Clark Kent writing about Superman. The scope of this effect increases with level, so you might be famous in Hell's Kitchen at low levels and across an entire city district or city at high levels. Might be class abilities that let you move this effect around temporarily.

Class abilities can help convert or spoof skills in the personas to avoid forcing you to spread skill ranks around too much. You shouldn't have to split ranks in Bluff to maintain your social personal with ranks in Acrobatics to run around rooftops.

The personas are mechanically different people. Bruce Wayne ceases to exist when he's Batman, even to scrying and such effects. The exception is if you already know or can somehow detect the connection between the personas. There were discussions but nothing final about abilities to defend against this, like being able to clone your social persona while going vigilante or getting a +20 to Bluff or Disguise checks against attempts to expose the

...

The chassis is pretty bad for a non spellcasting class.

Same BAB as the rogue, less skills. Already not liking this.

The bits about role playing are to be expected, though alignments between personas can only be one step apart? That really isn't enough of a switch since you just peddle between whatever you are and neutral. Not liking that either.

If the class ends up getting all intrigue abilities, and nothing that makes it stick out in combat, then I think we're in trouble.

Scarab Sages

master_marshmallow wrote:


Same BAB as the rogue, less skills. Already not liking this.

That doesn't necessarily mean it's worse at skills than the rogue. Bard, Inquisitor, and Investigator have less skill ranks per level than a rogue, but are all better at skills than a rogue.


Quote:
The chassis is pretty bad for a non spellcasting class.

But you can be a vigilante with divine or arcane specialization, so it doesn't sound like it's a non-spellcaster necessarily.


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Yes, it sounds like a really weird one honestly. Since there is an implication you are going to have basically divine and arcane casting as plug in options for the class. Perhaps the best 3.5 analog would be the factotum, which was another very odd class. Thankfully it does have a very strong hook to hang itself on in terms of game play.


It has the same chassis as the expert, I don't think that's an accident.

If it goes to full BAB in vigilante mode, then we will have a very interesting class.

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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master_marshmallow wrote:

It has the same chassis as the expert, I don't think that's an accident.

If it goes to full BAB in vigilante mode, then we will have a very interesting class.

Jason said that most likely the martial vigilante would have a full BAB, but the rest are 3/4 BAB.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Thomas LeBlanc wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

It has the same chassis as the expert, I don't think that's an accident.

If it goes to full BAB in vigilante mode, then we will have a very interesting class.

Jason said that most likely the martial vigilante would have a full BAB, but the rest are 3/4 BAB.

That sounds pretty interesting...I'm really curious as to what the vigilante going to be like. Have to keep my eyes open for the playtest!


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Thomas LeBlanc wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

It has the same chassis as the expert, I don't think that's an accident.

If it goes to full BAB in vigilante mode, then we will have a very interesting class.

Jason said that most likely the martial vigilante would have a full BAB, but the rest are 3/4 BAB.

If you're ever playing Gestalt, pick Medium and nobody will ever know what classes you are!


The nut of the vigilante—to effectively be two distinct people—requires some form of mechanical compromise to maintain in other classes, especially if you're not building a Hulk-like master chymist. You spend skill ranks on Bluff to maintain your cover when you need them in Acrobatics to raid tombs, or on combat feats to crack skulls when you really need something social. One of the goals of the vigilante's duality is to reduce or eliminate those compromises, at the expense of giving up some or all of your class abilities if you're caught out-of-role.

Going past the obvious superheroes, I really like the non-mechanical character duality that the alignment shift provides for. And even though it's being geared to PCs, I like the possibilities for NPCs even more. For instance:

This belongs in a museum!:
I keep coming back to the Indiana Jones/Peggy Carter mold of someone who excels in their field but performs best (or only) when secretly breaking their field's social norms. No self-respecting archaeologist uses Henry Jones Jr.'s methods, and the SSR sees no role for a woman in the field, but they both throw on a thin disguise, discard their Lawful duties, and take on secret roles to get things done that others can't—then puts on their suit and goes back to work the next morning, nobody any wiser for what they've done.

Cool Pharasmin:
You don't have to go far from reality for a divine vigilante concept. A head priest with stuffy responsibilities to a temple but a powerful wanderlust could easily be a divine vigilante without going full-on combat zealot.

Something Eleven:
The proverbial gentleman thief capable of casing a target or working a mark in broad daylight, but leaving nothing to link him to the crime. Along with the heist mechanics mentioned as part of Ultimate Intrigue, this opens up encounters, or even campaigns, that—again, while possible now—require mechanical compromises that the vigilante can circumvent.

The investigator fills an adjacent role, as do certain rogue or ranger builds with the ability to cover tracks or casters who can alter memory, but the distinction of the vigilante (I hope, at least) is the ability to fade completely out of the social persona, preventing anyone from linking you to the crime regardless of magic as long as you plan everything well. White Collar: The Fantasy RPG; realistically someone should be able to figure out the impossibly handsome guy visiting the museum every day for the last week might be related to the big heist that just happened, but for some reason they just can't quite connect the dots.

Ex-paladin:
I'd want to roll an ex-paladin to give it levels in divine vigilante. That's a mechanical rat's nest, but the idea of potentially reconciling with their LG god, then having to balance that with their vigilante urges to go NG or LN and potentially lapse again? Or even better, being a full-on paladin in the social persona and a rogue-ish code-of-honor scoundrel whose god can't even see them fall out of favor when they flip to vigilante? That's tough to resist from a characterization point of view.


I hope it's Paizo's version of the Beguiler.


Wise Old Man wrote:
I hope it's Paizo's version of the Beguiler.

I thought Mesmerist was Paizo's version of the Beguiler.


One thing that I think will be cool is playing a shapechanger Vigilante- either Kitsune or Skinwalker. Not only do you have two identities, but you've got two forms to go with it.


Milo v3 wrote:
Wise Old Man wrote:
I hope it's Paizo's version of the Beguiler.
I thought Mesmerist was Paizo's version of the Beguiler.

The mesmerist is an excellent enchanter, but to me it really misses the spirit of the beguiler class. If you're looking for a good beguiler, I can't recommend this conversion enough.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
QuidEst wrote:
One thing that I think will be cool is playing a shapechanger Vigilante- either Kitsune or Skinwalker. Not only do you have two identities, but you've got two forms to go with it.

Oh my god. That is brilliant!

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I really hope they find room for an Occult Vigilante.

Because WHO KNOWS what evil lurks in the hearts of men?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Master Chemyst/Vigilante.

For all your magical girl transformation needs.


Penumbral Shadow wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Wise Old Man wrote:
I hope it's Paizo's version of the Beguiler.
I thought Mesmerist was Paizo's version of the Beguiler.
The mesmerist is an excellent enchanter, but to me it really misses the spirit of the beguiler class. If you're looking for a good beguiler, I can't recommend this conversion enough.

I've seen that conversion, and although it is nice, my GM wouldn't allow it. I'd like to see Paizo's official version.

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
I really hope they find room for an Occult Vigilante.

100% this! I have a few decent ideas for at least 3 of the occult classes to tie into the vigilant all based on old B&W movies.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Master Chemyst/Vigilante.

For all your magical girl transformation needs.

Personally, I was thinking vigilante/kineticist for magical girls...


I wonder if the Vigilante will use the Reputation and Fame system at all.


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Vigilant/Sythesist for a magical girl with a one-minute transformation sequence.


Wise Old Man wrote:
Penumbral Shadow wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Wise Old Man wrote:
I hope it's Paizo's version of the Beguiler.
I thought Mesmerist was Paizo's version of the Beguiler.
The mesmerist is an excellent enchanter, but to me it really misses the spirit of the beguiler class. If you're looking for a good beguiler, I can't recommend this conversion enough.
I've seen that conversion, and although it is nice, my GM wouldn't allow it. I'd like to see Paizo's official version.

If you're waiting for a true Paizo beguiler you'll be waiting for a long time, they've said they aren't particularly interested in converting classes not covered under the OGL and that they'd rather explore their own ideas. Likely the closest we'll ever get is the mesmirist and as a long time beguiler player it falls way short of the mark. Ertw's conversion is the only one I've seen that really manages to capture the true spirit of the beguiler while also making it work inside the updated framework of pathfinder. This is all my opinion, mind you, so if you're happy with the mesmirist more power to you.


Penumbral Shadow wrote:


If you're waiting for a true Paizo beguiler you'll be waiting for a long time, they've said they aren't particularly interested in converting classes not covered under the OGL and that they'd rather explore their own ideas. Likely the closest we'll ever get is the mesmirist and as a long time beguiler player it falls way short of the mark. Ertw's conversion is the only one I've seen that really manages to capture the true spirit of the beguiler while also making it work inside the updated framework of pathfinder. This is all my opinion, mind you, so if you're happy with the mesmirist more power to you.

And yet we have samurai, ninja, cavalier (knight), oracle (favoured soul... a stretch admittedly), magus (duskblade), kineticist (warlock), harrowed medium (binder)...

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Now you have the Mesmerist (Beguiler)


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Yeah, I'd say some of those are kind of a stretch, even if they share the same names...the 3.5 samurai specialized in using specific swords and intimidating things, a far cry from Pathfinder's more historically accurate mounted samurai, though the sword saint archetype is considerably closer. The two ninja I suppose do share some similarities, both being ki-using rogues, though 3.5's was Wisdom-based. The cavalier and the knight...well, both used challenges, but the knight didn't really have a mounted theme at all, and was far more defensively oriented than the cavalier is. Oracle and favored soul...well, they were both divine spontaneous characters with the cleric spell list, but the flavor was pretty different, not to mention favored souls got perfect saves, which oracles have to take a feat many consider broken to accomplish. Not to mention the whole curse angle. I'll admit the magus and duskblade are thematically pretty much identical and have very similar niches, though the duskblade had full BAB and only 5-level spellcasting, not to mention a -much- more limited spell list. Now that I think about it, I'm curious if duskblade enthusiasts are satisfied with the magus or not...

But yeah. If you're going to accept those, then either the bard or the mesmerist seem to fit a similar niche, though I'm not surprised that a beguiler fan wouldn't find it satisfactory...after all, the beguiler's a 9th level caster. I guess the closest thing would be a sorcerer with the kobold bloodline and the seeker archetype...kobold bloodline offers a limited form of cloaked casting and silent spell as a bloodline feat, seeker offers trapfinding, and you could load up on illusion and enchantment spells if you wanted. However, you wouldn't be Intelligence-based, you wouldn't be able to wear light armor, and you wouldn't have 6 + Intelligence skill points. You could consider replacing kobold bloodline with sage wildblooded bloodline, or even go crossblooded, and there's always feats to cast in armor at the cost of swift actions, but in the end, it's definitely not going to really be a beguiler...

Edit: I really doubt that the vigilante is going to be a 9th-level caster, though. And they've already said they're planning on 3/4 BAB, not 1/2 BAB.

Scarab Sages

I expected the play test to be up by now from what people were saying. Anyone have an idea of when it will be available?

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

My faulty recollection was that it would be out this month. Jason said at the beginning of the seminar it would be dumb to sign an NDA for a playtest that would begin in a few weeks. I would hazard a guess to be more towards the end of the month based on the outline of the class covered in the seminar and the amount of work that sounds like it needed to be developed.

Surprise Reveal (Ex): ...

Liberty's Edge

I'm already late to the dance, but why does this playtest class NOT have Intimidate as a class skill? That would seem a seminal part of the archetype.


I plan on making the six nipple terror who barks in the night...DOGLIN!
By day a mild mannered goblin who only wants to help but can't seem to do anything right. But at night he becomes The Doglin! Striking fear into every monster. Growling at the most fearsome foe!

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