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At higher levels, say at level 9 when you have 5 missiles, and you apply the Toppling Metamagic Feat to the spell, and you choose to target five different people, do you get to make five Trip checks (Using Caster level plus relevant ability bonus vs CMD)???
At higher levels, say at level 9 when you have 5 missiles, and you apply the Toppling Metamagic Feat to the spell, and you choose to target five different people, do you get to make five Trip checks (Using Caster level plus relevant ability bonus vs CMD)???
Looks like a good combo to me. Magic Missile satisfies all requirements of the spell, but it can have multiple targets. This makes it kind of a corner case (multiple-target force spells), but I don't see why it wouldn't work.
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Come to think of it, would that mean that if you sent all five missiles at the same target, that you could make five trip attempts? Basically each one thumps him in rapid succession until he topples over backwards?
I don't have the Topple Spell text in front of me, though.
I don't have the Topple Spell text in front of me, though.
Sure you do:
Toppling Spell (Metamagic): "Benefit: The impact of your force spell is strong enough to knock the target prone. If the target takes damage, fails its saving throw, or is moved by your force spell, make a trip check against the target..."
I think 5 targets means 5 attempts, 1 target means 1 attempt.
At higher levels, say at level 9 when you have 5 missiles, and you apply the Toppling Metamagic Feat to the spell, and you choose to target five different people, do you get to make five Trip checks (Using Caster level plus relevant ability bonus vs CMD)???Looks like a good combo to me. Magic Missile satisfies all requirements of the spell, but it can have multiple targets. This makes it kind of a corner case (multiple-target force spells), but I don't see why it wouldn't work.
This has been discussed before and the general consensus is that if you target 5 different targets then you get a trip for each target but since all the damage is coming from a single spell, if you target a single creature with all 5 missiles you only get one trip attack, since there is only one source of damage (even though there are multiple missiles). Essentially, apply the same logic Paizo has already stated about sneak attacks and multiple rays.
It's worth noting that beyond 5th level it's incredibly difficult to trip the majority of @ CR creatures with only a CMB of level+stat. Usually involves much more finagling than that.
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I don't have the Topple Spell text in front of me, though.Sure you do:
Toppling Spell (Metamagic): "Benefit: The impact of your force spell is strong enough to knock the target prone. If the target takes damage, fails its saving throw, or is moved by your force spell, make a trip check against the target..."
I think 5 targets means 5 attempts, 1 target means 1 attempt.
Gah, I keep forgetting that UM has been added to the PRD. Thanks Grick.
Come to think of it, would that mean that if you sent all five missiles at the same target, that you could make five trip attempts? Basically each one thumps him in rapid succession until he topples over backwards?
I don't have the Topple Spell text in front of me, though.
I don't think you can target the same person twice with a spell. The way I've always seen it played, 5 missiles flying toward one BBEG all hit at the same time, and are considered a single attack/source of damage.
I may be wrong. I don't have any thing RAW to specifically back this up, other than that scorching ray specifically says it can target the same person twice, whereas MM defaults to one target, and then says you can spread the missiles to multiple targets.
I don't think you can target the same person twice with a spell. The way I've always seen it played, 5 missiles flying toward one BBEG all hit at the same time, and are considered a single attack/source of damage..
That's how I would rule it if we were talking about 5 missiles and damage reduction, so I guess it should be one Trip check.
I'd like to give a bonus for each missile that hits a single foe, but that might be overpowering MM a bit much - though you'd be level 9 by that stage and we are only talking about a +4...?Effective Trip check not enough for CR appropriate foes?
CL + stat would be the same for a fighter, right? He would have full BAB (+9) + stat (Str)
Ahh, I get it now, with the possibility of Improved Trip.
Our caster's stat would be, theoretically 20 at creation, +1 @ 4 & 8, and +4 from a magic item = 26: +8
trip check @+17
Sounds decent to me. Maybe I wouldn't rule the bonus in.
I might talk to my GM about taking Improved Trip with Toppling Spell, though I'm not sure it is really worth two feats.
I don't think you can target the same person twice with a spell. The way I've always seen it played, 5 missiles flying toward one BBEG all hit at the same time, and are considered a single attack/source of damage..That's how I would rule it if we were talking about 5 missiles and damage reduction, so I guess it should be one Trip check.
I'd like to give a bonus for each missile that hits a single foe, but that might be overpowering MM a bit much - though you'd be level 9 by that stage and we are only talking about a +4...?Effective Trip check not enough for CR appropriate foes?
CL + stat would be the same for a fighter, right? He would have full BAB (+9) + stat (Str)
Ahh, I get it now, with the possibility of Improved Trip.Our caster's stat would be, theoretically 20 at creation, +1 @ 4 & 8, and +4 from a magic item = 26: +8
trip check @+17
Sounds decent to me. Maybe I wouldn't rule the bonus in.I might talk to my GM about taking Improved Trip with Toppling Spell, though I'm not sure it is really worth two feats.
A +17 seems nice until you start looking at the CMDs of a couple CR 9 monsters.
Aurumvorax 42; Impossible to Trip
Bone Devil 31; 30% chance to trip
Young Bronze Dragon 31; 30% chance to trip
Juvenile Copper Dragon 34; 20% chance to trip
Dire Crocodile 40; Impossible to trip
Frost Giant 29; 40% chance
Toppling works best as an AoE trip against a bunch of fodder minions, robbing them of APR. Against a single target your level in CR, it usually will be able to resist the attempt.
That's how I would rule it if we were talking about 5 missiles and damage reduction,Er, DR doesn't apply to spells.
Whoops, memory like a sieve sometimes.
@ Brotato - thanks for looking those up for me. I haven't had a chance to look yet today. Better to use the 5 missiles against 5 foes for a reasonable chance to Topple one of them.
It will also be useful to give my allies a bonus to hit (whilst prone) and a possible AoO as the foes have to stand up.
I will think more about this as I level up my spellcaster.
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A toppling spell only affects spells with the force descriptor.
So I've used the Spells Database to make a list of the appropriate
Scoop 0 evocation
Shield 1 abjuration
Mage Armor 1 conjuration
Floating Disk 1 evocation
Magic Missile 1 evocation
Cushioning Bands 2 conjuration
Explosive Runes 3 abjuration
Sepia Snake Sigil 3 conjuration
Tiny Hut 3 evocation
Twilight Knife 3 evocation
Force Punch 3 evocation
Resilient Sphere 4 evocation
Interposing Hand 5 evocation
Wall of Force 5 evocation
Symbol of Sealing 6 abjuration
Forceful Hand 6 evocation
Leashed Shackles 6 evocation
Deflection 7 abjuration
Forcecage 7 evocation
Grasping Hand 7 evocation
Mage's Sword 7 evocation
Clenched Fist 8 evocation
Telekinetic Sphere 8 evocation
Crushing Hand 9 evocation
Of these only the following would apply.
Magic Missile, Explosive Runes, Sepia Snake Sigil, Twilight Knife, Force Punch, Interposing Hand?, Forceful Hand?, Grasping Hand?, Mage's Sword, Clenched Fist?.
And, as indictated by the question mark, I don't think that the (Bigby's) Hand spells work with it (as making Interposing Hand a Toppling Spell sounds like Forceful Hand anyway). Explosive Runes doesn't often see a chance in combat, neither does Sepia Snake Sigil (though it is fun to try to think of ways of getting them into combat).
This leaves us with only 3 spells to use it with: Magic Missile (level 1), Twilight Knife (level 3) and Mage's Sword (level 7), and for each of these I think it makes a welcome addition to it's attack, though I am not so sure that it is worth the +1 spell level. I guess it would depend on whether the Knife/Sword were permitted to make AoO's, and whether the Mage wants to be within a Close range of melee.
I'm not so sure that it is worthwhile to use up a level 4 or level 8 slot for the Knife or the Sword.
Magic Missile on the other hand, becomes a 2nd level spell and may be worthwhile, at least at low to mid levels.
Combine this with Improved Trip (which requires Combat Expertise, AND your GM may not allow it to work with Magic Missile) and Greater Trip (requires BAB +6 which is Wizard level 12) and it might be pretty good with a Trip check now at Caster Level + Int modifier +4. But it is starting to sound like a really specialised build. I don't think I would spend all those feats on it without the support of the rest of the party. Though it is only a second level spell, and by level 7 or so you probably have 6 slots for those, and as many scrolls as you can write.
Still, it would be fun to knock some foes prone with a 2nd level spell. At least, I'm sure that all my melee friends would enjoy it, and it is a nice way to stop that enemy Ranger from making full attacks with his bow. It would also help with those bad-guys who dare to run away rather than fight to the death.
Interposing Hand wouldn't benefit because it doesn't fulfill one of the requirements of Toppling Spell (It does no damage, has no save to fail, and doesn't move the target.) Forceful Hand, however, would trigger a trip attempt if it succeeded at bull rushing its target even 5 feet (you could make Grasping Hand bull rush instead of grapple, in which case it *would* benefit from Toppling Spell. If it grapples, however, it deals no damage and therefore wouldn't trigger the trip.) Crushing Hand would trigger a trip attempt if it succeeded at its grapple check and dealt damage (though being a 9th level spell means that you'll have to come up with inventive ways to apply the feat.)
Interposing Hand wouldn't benefit because it doesn't fulfill one of the requirements of Toppling Spell (It does no damage, has no save to fail, and doesn't move the target.) Forceful Hand, however, would trigger a trip attempt if it succeeded at bull rushing its target even 5 feet (you could make Grasping Hand bull rush instead of grapple, in which case it *would* benefit from Toppling Spell. If it grapples, however, it deals no damage and therefore wouldn't trigger the trip.) Crushing Hand would trigger a trip attempt if it succeeded at its grapple check and dealt damage (though being a 9th level spell means that you'll have to come up with inventive ways to apply the feat.)
Thanks, Grasping Hand is another spell you could use with this feat. I think the Trip attempt makes a useful addition to the Bull Rush attempt.
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I don't think you can target the same person twice with a spell. The way I've always seen it played, 5 missiles flying toward one BBEG all hit at the same time, and are considered a single attack/source of damage..That's how I would rule it if we were talking about 5 missiles and damage reduction, so I guess it should be one Trip check.
I'd like to give a bonus for each missile that hits a single foe, but that might be overpowering MM a bit much - though you'd be level 9 by that stage and we are only talking about a +4...?Effective Trip check not enough for CR appropriate foes?
CL + stat would be the same for a fighter, right? He would have full BAB (+9) + stat (Str)
Ahh, I get it now, with the possibility of Improved Trip.Our caster's stat would be, theoretically 20 at creation, +1 @ 4 & 8, and +4 from a magic item = 26: +8
trip check @+17
Sounds decent to me. Maybe I wouldn't rule the bonus in.I might talk to my GM about taking Improved Trip with Toppling Spell, though I'm not sure it is really worth two feats.
A +17 seems nice until you start looking at the CMDs of a couple CR 9 monsters.
Aurumvorax 42; Impossible to Trip
Bone Devil 31; 30% chance to trip
Young Bronze Dragon 31; 30% chance to trip
Juvenile Copper Dragon 34; 20% chance to trip
Dire Crocodile 40; Impossible to trip
Frost Giant 29; 40% chance
Toppling works best as an AoE trip against a bunch of fodder minions, robbing them of APR. Against a single target your level in CR, it usually will be able to resist the attempt.
Note that nothing has a CMD so high it can't be tripped - a natural 20 will succeed regardless.
Note that nothing has a CMD so high it can't be tripped - a natural 20 will succeed regardless.
Ah so you're right. I originally though CMBs were like skill checks (no auto pass on a 20, no auto fail on a 1) because I couldn't find any mention of the words "attack roll." I just did, however.
So yes, you'd have a 5% chance to trip anything I said was impossible to trip. Still not that amazing.
And there are creatures that are just flat out immune to trip. Of all the combat maneuvers, it is the one that is hardest to achieve against most monsters.
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Of all the combat maneuvers, it is the one that is hardest to achieve against most monsters.
Yeah, but it's great fun against humanoids (especially if you combo with disarm - I've kept a combatant out of the fight from round 1 before, while still fighting everyone else off, just by alternating trip and disarm with my AoO's on him).
Most combat maneuvers (or possibly "all") are situational. They let you excel in one type of situation, but cost you the feats that could've been spent being more effective in other situations. It's a tradeoff.
Of all the combat maneuvers, it is the one that is hardest to achieve against most monsters.Yeah, but it's great fun against humanoids (especially if you combo with disarm - I've kept a combatant out of the fight from round 1 before, while still fighting everyone else off, just by alternating trip and disarm with my AoO's on him).
Most combat maneuvers (or possibly "all") are situational. They let you excel in one type of situation, but cost you the feats that could've been spent being more effective in other situations. It's a tradeoff.
My campaign has more humanoid NPCs than monsters, so I am thinking of taking this up. As a wizard I aim to hinder at least foe, or buff an ally, each round, and this will work with that goal.
But ultimately, I can't help but now think I'm better off with casting Grease in almost every situation.But then again it becomes another useful tool in my belt. Among other things I categorise my spells as vs Will, vs Fort, vs Reflex, no Save, and with this, vs CMD.