Penumbral Shadow's page

However I think a potential late game, race locked, school locked build isn't necessarily grounds to hold the change back.

That's a fair point. It still feels like a bit much, but I do like Sylver's idea of offering it as an optional variant.

Another quick update: I've just pushed an update of the BotIS document which includes the ikiryo (a new ninja themed archetype from distant Tian Xia) and a new artifact to aid ikiryo in moving between the Inner Sea and their home continent. I've also moved all non-core race FCBs over to the BotIS document.

This looks really great. I especially like that it slots right into the order patronage spot, so it plays nice with any archetypes that don't displace orders. I'm thinking about how I'd build a badass ikiryo/shadowgraft skirmisher right now. I agree with Sylver that the artifact needs a serious cooldown to keep it from breaking the world wide open, either a day at least or possibly just making it work for a single one-way trip (could be great for Jade Regent players who want to return to Avistan after the AP is finished).

I've been reading over Nicholas' comments in the thread and they've been quite interesting and thought provoking. From where I sit it seems like what you want from the class doesn't quite dovetail with what Ertw has been trying to do with it over these years. You want a laser focused spellcaster, while Ertw has been building something more in line with pathfinder's updated meta of more expansive options and focuses for their classes. In the end it may well be that this might not be the conversion for you, or that limiting yourself to just the Arcane Hand is what is necessary to get it to work for you. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that of course, lots of different people have different ideas about balance or play style and whatever works in your game is what you ought to use.

what I meant to say is that I don't want this promising Beguiler-conversion (!!) to go bust because of extra rules that aren't as thought out as the base-class (sorry).

Just as a sidenote, I'm pretty active on the pathfinder subreddit and the pathfinder general thread on 4chan and this conversion is very popular among both groups. I've rarely seen any mention of it being turned away from games for any reason beyond a blanket ban on non-Paizo materials.

I'm looking over the provisional update and I like most of what I see in terms of the new abilities and progressions. I especially like moving HiPS and swift feint up since not a lot of games end up at those kinds of levels and they're really neat tricks to get to play with. One big concern I have is the interaction of these two:

Cloaked casting now grants +1 bonus to save DCs at level 2, increasing by 1 every 6 levels thereafter. At level 8 rolls to overcome SR gain the same bonus. At level 19 SR is automatically overcome.

New ability aura of indiscretion causes those within 30 ft. to suffer a -4 penalty on Sense Motive checks against you and -2 on Will saves against your abilities, gained at level 17.

A +4 to DCs is really strong, especially if you couple it with hidden signs to reliably trigger cloaked casting. Combining this with a penalty to enemy Will saves from the aura takes it even further. Add in a kitsune with the FCB that pumps enchantment DCs and you could easily end up with a heightened dominate or geas with a DC well into the 40s or 50s which could be game breaking.

I suppose that's reasonable. Given when it'll be bought the savings will be pretty miniscule.

Here's a first draft of my initial thoughts:

** spoiler omitted **

Where is the pricing for this item coming from? It seems a little low to me. After all the mage armor function alone ought to cost 2000 gp at CL 2.

Since we're at the top of the page again here are the most recent links for newcomers:

Beguiler Conversion - main conversion document
Beguilers of the Inner Seas - Golarion themed options for your beguiler

And now, here is my first draft for the beguiler class templates:

** spoiler omitted **...

How do the templates with spells interact with order spells? Does a Ghastly Enforcer add his order spells to his spell list? Do the other templates that gain spells get access to any order spells at all?

Quick tease of the templates I'm working one

It'll be interesting to see how you tie the cleric, druid and witch together. None of these jump out as particularly sneaky casters to me.

PS I love the name of the Trickster Operative :p

On another subject: I've been considering adding a series of templates akin to those from Path of War to the variant rules section to give beguiler-like options to existing classes. I have a vague idea of which classes I'd like to include, but I'd like some input from people here:

What kind of classes would you like to see get some beguiler-like options? What kind of options/features would you like to see exported in this way?

Definitely the slayer and rogue. You could use the stygian slayer and eldritch scoundrel archetypes as a base as both are pretty interesting ideas that were IMHO poorly executed. Features would definitely include spellcasting (4th level casting for slayer, 6th level casting for rogue) and maybe access to order powers coming into effect at a reduced rate.

Penumbral Shadow wrote:

Pidgin adept seems super situational. I don't think those situations would come up often enough to justify taking it, especially since a Theurgic Brigand can take the tongues spell.

Thanks for you comments. I see your point about pidgin adept being situational, but there are probably campaigns (like the type SylverFox mentioned) where it'd be useful. I figured that it doesn't hurt to have it as an option for those who want a less spell-based or supernatural type of linguistic facility.

Alright, I can follow that. I guess pidgins don't waste spell slots if you're going to be dealing with a lot of people without common language. It'd also have an edge in an antimagic field :p

Oh, I forgot to mention I updated the conversion document again to include a new alchemical substance: Writ of Obedience.

I really like that. I can totally see my beguiler slipping that into a noble's drink ten minutes before trying to charm him. One question: the description seems like it has all the trappings of a poison, but it's never called out as such expressly. Was this on purpose? How would a person with immunity to poison react to a dose of the Writ?

So the changes to the Arcane Hand seem like a decent increase to its power level. In particular the spell mimic brings some good, long term versatility to the Beguiler which isn't matched by anything save the Tomebound Beguiler's capstone. Stealspell was nice, but it didn't give you anything beyond the one combat you used it on. Artful invocation power is a nice flavorful option to tune your casting to its purpose.

We like the new brigand talents, but that's pretty expected since they're mostly drawn from earlier Beguiler abilities. Pidgin adept seems super situational. I don't think those situations would come up often enough to justify taking it, especially since a Theurgic Brigand can take the tongues spell.

Witchfire sounds like fun, not much more to say about that.

Penumbral Shadow wrote:

Would these basically act like metamagic feats?

No, they won't increase spell level or casting time. They also can't be used in conjunction with metamagic feats until level 20. You can check it out now because...

I just updated the main conversion document with the arcane hand and theurgic brigand updates. Changes include:

• False theurgy replaced by artful invocation ability allowing a beguiler to cast subtly and spectacularly.
  
• Stealspell replaced by spell mimic ability allowing a beguiler to memorize a small number of spells that she has observed and prepare them using savvy preparation.
  
• New brigand talents: pidgin adept, and social status.
  
• New advanced talents: false theurgy, and stealspell.
  
• New piece of beguiler equipment: witchfire essence.

Awesome, I'll look the changes over and post my thoughts after discussing them with the group.

Still haven't had much time to work it out properly, but I have a general idea of where I want to take the arcane hand. Essentially I'm looking at replacing false theurgy (which will be moving over to a brigand talent) with a modified casting option; essentially the beguiler would have two altered modes of casting which I've given the working titles of subtle and spectacular casting.

When casting a spell subtly, the beguiler would weave the verbal and somatic components of her spell into normal conversation through whispered incantations and subtle gestures; this would render the spell undetectable by spellcraft and automatically qualify for cloaked casting bonuses. The downside to subtle casting is that it would lower the DC and CL of the spell by -2, although enchantment spells would not be subject to this penalty.

A spell which is cast spectacularly is one in which the beguiler makes great efforts to deceive the observer of the power of the spell which she is casting through bombastic incantation and wild gesticulations. Spells cast in this way would gain a +1 bonus to DC and CL; the bonus would increase to +2 for illusion spells and shadow subschool spells would have a 20% increase in their effects "realness" on a successful save.

Would these basically act like metamagic feats?

I'm dropping in to announce that I've updated the main conversion document. This update doesn't include the changes for the arcane hand or theurgic brigand, but does have some minor tuning for the elusive wildling (in light of Paizo's feyspeaker druid archetype) as well as a new series of variant rules for a few items that people have consistently complained about regarding my conversion including options for returning the beguiler to an all spells known casting mechanic (with significantly shortened spell list) and options for beguilers that don't require the organization of the beguilers' guild.

I almost always see one of those two reasons given when people want to play a beguiler that but doesn't like your take on it, so I think this is really great since it'll open up the conversion to a wider audience. I think Sylver hit the nail on he head that approaching these rules as suggestions was a stroke of genius since it lets people adjust it to their expectations of a pathfinder beguiler.

Any updates on the Arcane Hand and Theurgic Brigand?

I've had both of those on my mind lately for exactly that reason. I still like where I have the theurgic brigand, but I'm considering a few more talent options (including ones that give them a vigilante-style social identity and access to social talents). As for the arcane hand, it definitely needs work; I have a few approaches I've been mulling over, but I'd be open to any suggestions.

Glad to hear that you're still thinking about the beguiler. I like the sounds of your ideas for the Theurgic Brigand, but don't really have any ideas off the top of my head for an update of the Arcane Hand.

I know that this thread has been kind of dormant lately, but I just noticed that the Wandering Heart order has had an update. I really like it and it definitely feels like it continues to put them out as the premier enchanters among the Beguilers.

Now it seems that the only orders/archetypes that haven't had a major facelift since the first builds that Luke and I playtested the Beguiler are the Arcane Hand and the Theurgic Brigand. I know Arcane Hand was looked upon as the weakest order of them all before the other orders got updates. I was curious if you have any plans to give the Arcane Hand a new coat of paint?

I like the story for the Vilderavn's Court, but why is the guild as a whole afraid of a single CR 16 creature? Even the leader of that guild (being a 18th level beguiler) should be able to take it down one-on-one.

It's not just a single CR 16 creature. The Vilderavn is a clever, scheming creature (much like the beguilers which makes the two a pretty natural fit) so it isn't ever going to be alone. It will set up camp in an area and attract allies to its service through lies, intimidation, or bribery. An established Vilderavn is incredibly dangerous because it's likely employing a vast network of spies and assassins to guard its secrets. As a member of the Umbral Court, this Vilderavn probably also has significant sway over a large number of Umbral Court Agents and the Nidalese army itself.

Penumbral Shadow wrote:

ertw wrote:

The basic idea is that there is a powerful fey creature in Nidal that's posing as a member of the Umbral Court

Is... is it a Vilderavn?

What's a vilderavn?

As Kryzbyn pointed out it's a very cool fey creature from bestiary 5. It seems like it's gained a lot of popularity in the past few weeks in the pathfinder thread on /tg/ as an exciting new alternative to the boring old lich-as-big-bad trope.

The basic idea is that there is a powerful fey creature in Nidal that's posing as a member of the Umbral Court

Is... is it a Vilderavn?

I'm not crazy about firearms in my fantasy gaming in general, so I probably wouldn't end up using that. It might be an interesting option to give the character a choice: they can either be a traditionalist who wields a scimitar (I assume this is what you're referring to when you mention Kelishite weapons) as her desert dwelling forefathers did, or a revolutionary who has adapted to her new home and its technology.

This seems like a decent compromise between the two positions. If you don't want to use a beguiler with a gun, or your DM doesn't allow firearms, you can fallback to the traditionalist proficiencies.

So I've been working on the finer points of the Wayfaring Haunter archetype and need to make a decision on something that I'd like to put to you fine people: given that they are primarily based out of Alkenstar, would you be interested in this archetype being proficient with firearms? Or would you prefer that they only gain more traditional Kelishite weapon proficiencies?

I wouldn't have a problem with them having proficiency with firearms since it's fitting thematically and the early firearms you'd find in Alkenstar aren't particularly overpowered.

SylverFox wrote:

I feel like it might be an interesting option to give both beguiler and eidolon a sneak attack with smaller damage dice (something like a d4) to give them a sort of flurry style attack while flanking. If the two aren't split up, they can use the regular d6 damage.

I don't think that I'd be able to sell that idea as balanced since you'd be doubling up on actions per round and then teaming that up with what would end up as a combined sneak attack that would output more damage than a normal sneak attacking class between the beguiler and the eidolon. It's an interesting idea, but it's way too powerful to reasonably put into the conversion.

Yeah, that'd definitely be broken.

No sneak attack progression for the beguiler herself, but I'm thinking about an evolution for the eidolon that grants +1d6 sneak attack (an evolution that can be taken multiple times, but with a HD dependent cap on sneak attack dice).

If you're doing something like the 1/2 HD round up limit that the accomplished sneak attacker feat has, that's nearly 1/3 your evolution points to keep it maxed out. That's a pretty big investment.

Alright I'll give a few details. The eidolon granted to the wayfaring haunter isn't a summoned creature, it's part of the beguiler herself; specifically, it's her shadow. As such it's closer to an animal companion than a summoner's eidolon. I'm still thinking over the best way to approach eidolon healing and death. For the first few levels, the beguiler and eidolon must be attached to one another; while attached they only get one set of actions between the two creatures and a few evolutions can be shared between beguiler and eidolon (eg. the beguiler gains the eidolon's natural armour as an armour bonus while attached).

Once the beguiler gains the ability to separate from her eidolon she can do so carefully as a 1 minute action or quickly as a standard action that deals damage to the eidolon. While separated each creature gets its own set of actions. Even when separated, the eidolon can't go very far from the beguiler (I'm thinking close spell range). The result is that the beguiler gets to choose between being separate from her eidolon and having a flanking partner or staying connected to her eidolon and getting buffed by its evolutions.

Okay, that's way different from what I was thinking, but it looks interesting. Maybe since it's more of a companion that summon you could deal with death the same way it's handled for an animal companion? Or I guess you could have it just return to being a regular shadow (and not granting any bonuses) until the next day when it returns to 0 HP? I like the idea of using your eidolon as armor, sort of like a synthesist or aegis, but less powerful. Anyhow, I'm looking forward to seeing how this archetype turns out!

Not quite, but you'll have to wait to see how.

EVIL

...eidolon.

Summoning archetype? Interesting.

Given that all of the negative reviews of that product have suddenly disappeared, I imagine the mods cleared out those two posts too.

That's pretty sad. There was a heck of a lot more "nerdrage" (to use the term used in the product discussion) in the complaints about the unfavorable reviews than there was in the reviews themselves. Glad we don't have to deal with those kinds of drama queens here :P

SylverFox wrote:

Any ETA on the beguilers of the inner seas changes?

I'm still working on them as well as a few extras.

Extras are always welcome :P

I can see where you're coming from, it was just a thought.

...the dance cannot be started if the beguiler is wearing any armour or carrying a shield.

I've been thinking about this and I wonder if this could be done a little better. I feel like the no armor provision of the class means well, but will just end up with a character who instead just wears bracers of armor and stacks canny defense on top of that for the same (or greater) AC as a regular armor wearing beguiler. I fully support the no armor condition for canny defense, but it seems to me that maybe allowing the beguiler to wear armor with no armor check penalty during the dance (in my head the idea behind that prohibition is that the armor gets in the way of the beguiler's movement during the dance) if he so chooses to allow a wider array of equipment options for scarred mourners. You could even allow the beguiler to mitigate the effect of a small amount of armor check penalty for rounds of dance at later levels.

New BotIS feat I've been mulling over for the last few days:

** spoiler omitted **

Ertw, are you doing what I think you're doing? Are you letting a beguiler have a beguiler as a familiar?

Ordained Champion really feels like it could be done better as a cleric, warpriest or paladin archetype rather than a PrC itself.

The archetype also seems way too MAD: it needs Con for spells and dancing, Dex and Int for AC, and Cha to make perform (dance) checks. I feel like one of these needs to be dropped, maybe use acrobatics checks instead dance checks for attacks?

I hadn't even noticed that, yeah trimming it back to relying on three attributes would help. Another solution might be to allow her to use Int or Dex for Perform checks.

I've just had time to skim the scarred mourner, but I like the general idea. It kind of feels like a more balanced approach to the old Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil bolted onto a Barbarian-type framework. I'm not really crazy about the oracle curse, though, that seems a little bit too prohibitive.

SylverFox wrote:

Penumbral Shadow wrote:

Kryzbyn wrote:

Dwarven beguiler!

Hobgoblin beguiler!

I think my personal favorite would be either a Lizardfolk or Werecroc Skinwalker beguiler.

I'm going to break from the mold a bit and say that this archetype might be an interesting niche for a Vishkanya beguiler. Especially if there's some sort of self-injury component to really synergize with its CON dependent poison.

I like the way you think, sir.

Dwarven beguiler!

Hobgoblin beguiler!

25 CON by level 20 isn't out of the question...

4+7+40=51 rounds. Probably more than they'd ever need or use.
I'd either leave it at Mod+double level or 4+Mod+level.

It seems Ertw's following the rage formula (though that would actually be 2+Mod+double level because you don't get extra rounds of rage at first level), so it's entirely possible that it might become an at will power as part of the capstone.

• A Constitution-based caster. She has practiced long to effortlessly wield her bladed scarf, but doing so has left her scarred and disfigured. She uses illusion to hide this disfigurement, but the scars give her access to the divine power. The scars provide her with a natural armour bonus, but she cannot wear any armour.

• An Intelligence-based caster. She wields her bladed scarf with unparalleled agility in battle. She uses this combination of Intelligence and Dexterity to defend herself in battle, gaining the Canny Defense class feature so long as she doesn't wear any armour.
  

I agree the flavor of the con-caster is interesting, you could even include some kind of mechanic where she can damage herself with her scarf while casting spells for added benefit. I don't think con-casting is nearly as game breaking as many think, yes it gave the SWD a number of HP equivalent to the barbarian or fighter, but it still didn't give them any more combat proficiency and that half BAB really hurt on that front. If anything I'd say the new SWD is way more powerful because it allows half-orcs to start with 22 Int.

Personally, I think you could find a good middle ground with a little bit of both: make it a con-caster with canny defense. That way it would need high con for casting and HP, str or dex for attack and/or damage and int for AC and skills.

Penumbral Shadow wrote:

You could also have a feat that grants the 7th level order power after 14 levels, too.

While most of the second tier order powers would be alright to open up, but I don't feel comfortable giving wide access to death blow. That's why I've specifically avoided putting together a power akin to improved eldritch heritage.

I don't really think that would necessarily be the end of the world, but it's your conversion.

You could also have a feat that grants the 7th level order power after 14 levels, too.

Neither bastard swords, nor any of the polearms work with weapon finesse, so they wouldn't actually work with morithil duelist.

A little effortless lace can allow the bastard sword build to work, but you're right about the polearms.

• Magical beast companions are awesomesauce! Still, I feel like they might be too much as a full druid AC (even with the short list of choices). I feel like it might be good to give the AC to them at level 4 (with effective druid level = beguiler level -3) like a ranger.
  
• Enlightened strategist seems broken to me, even if it was cut down to just Dex or Str. I love the idea of a martial beguiler, but this just feels like you're giving away too much. It basically gives you the option to take a ranger combat style feat every time you can pick up a feat. I also worry that it would make a 1 level dip in beguiler too tempting for a martial class just to open up things like Str-based TWF builds without having to be a slayer or ranger.
  
• Morithil duelist looks off the chain. I agree with Sylver, lighter weapons should equal easier handling. It's also nice because it means you don't have to rely on sawtooth sabers for an epic TWF build now. Still I can't help but wonder if it should be scaled back a bit too. I'm thinking something along the lines of working for a single weapon type, or maybe just weapons that beguilers are automatically proficient with? The more I think about it the less happy I am about having beguilers running around dual-wielding bastard swords as light weapons (with EWP), or two of the many polearms that deal slashing damage.
  
• I like the razor style chain, it's interesting but not overly powerful. Razor's step is a neat dimensional dervish alternative and the shadow flavor is thematically appreciated. My only question is: why does razor's step work on shadow walk instead of shadow step? Given the name, it could even be a typo?
  
• I remember the razorbow concept from 3.5, but I'm not sure whether it was homebrew or from one of the infinite splatbooks WotC put out. I like the idea of this, a swiss army knife weapon with a hefty cost (especially when you have to pay the cost of three magic weapons to enhance the whole thing). It's an extraordinarily complex weapon (as demonstrated by the fact that you needed three paragraphs to document its function), but I think you've done a good job keeping it well organized and brief. I like the idea of injuring yourself with the weapon if you're not familiar with it or rushing a restring attempt. The little cutting blade is absolutely genius for those panic moments. I also appreciate the fact that it's not a default part of the beguiler kit, you have to invest in the EWP to use it to its full potential.

Over all these are some pretty neat changes that give the beguiler a bit more martial oomph, but I think at some points you may have overstepped. Even though I love the idea of a beguiler who gets dirty with his weapons, you can't make one that does every job while maintaining the superb gaming balance you've crafted thus far with the conversion. Just my $0.02.

PS Gina is yelling at me to let you know that she approves of magical beast companions and she would spend every night's downtime brushing her blinkwolf's glittering fur.

LT Silverstar and Penumbral Shadow, I know you had a friend who was fairly invested in the Elusive Wildling, how do you think she would feel about moving away from the pack and into magical beast territory?

I just talked to Gina and she said she'd be very interested to she this new idea.

Malicious Maneuvers ability updated to include dimensional rush ability

Did you just give the ghastly claw biotic charge? I absolutely love that!

I agree with Arakhor, move heavens looks really interesting, but it's super situational. That said, I'm intrigued by the opportunity to use the spell beyond just the mechanical benefits listed in the spell description. Particularly using them to fake signs from the gods (eclipses at opportune moments, meteors acting as heralds of prophecy, ect.) seems like it could get fun. Probably not a spell to learn, but maybe one to pick up with savvy preparation when it comes in handy. I think it might be more interesting if it came with a way to lead a foe who is navigating by the stars astray, possibly an opposed bluff check against their survival.

Halcyon veil is great, I'm guessing it'll mostly be used projecting outward to hide murders or break into guarded areas and whatnot, but the whole time I was reading it I had this hilarious image in my mind of a beguiler strolling through a burning city under siege with somebody giving them a "guided tour" of this "burgeoning metropolis".

Easy mark is I think where things fell off. I get what you're trying to say, but the wording is just super muddled and kludgey it'd be easy for people to misunderstand the spell. I can't really think of any way to make the wording any clearer myself, which makes me think this one might be dead on the table. It's definitely an interesting concept, but I feel like it just overpowers things like phantasmal killer or shadow evocation (even with the extra save). My recommendation is to scrap this one.

Hidden Signs

I like it. Simple, straightforward, and if you're not using the clarification from that FAQ it doesn't actually change the class at all.

I'm thinking maybe I'll add a short delay between the touch and the onset of the addiction

That'll be good to give the beguiler a moment to get away before the enemy knows what's happened.

So does the target of impose dependence suddenly feel a general malaise, or do they know specifically that they're suddenly addicted to a drug they've never taken? More importantly do they have any way to know exactly which drug they're addicted to?

Penumbral Shadow wrote:

I'm currently working with one of my players who's running a beguiler to develop a new cantrip that he wants to make his signature spell. It opens an extradimensional link between one of his pockets and the pocket/coinpurse/other small container of another person within close range. This lets him reach into his own pocket and have his hand appear in theirs. The rules we're hashing out right now include: can't bring magical items through the link, must make sleight of hand check to successfully steal still and if the target reaches into the pocket it breaks the spell. Kind of a fun little situational trick that's mostly just good for grabbing keys and coins on the sly.

** spoiler omitted **...

Absolutely perfect. I love the idea that a perceived theft has a chance to fail. Great job, Ertw.

Hi Marc,
Hope you don't mind, but I wanted to ask that everyone check out ertw's beguiler conversion.

The beguiler class is essentially an arcane rogue type of class that has built in customization through its order class feature, which include masters of shadow magic, seductive enchantresses, elaborate infiltrators, and deadly assassins.

While not a full-fledged 3PP release as Kobold Press has so masterfully produced, the author of the conversion has been supporting and adding onto the class for the last two years. The result is a class that has been thoroughly play-tested and is one of the most balanced full casters available for pathfinder. And best of all, it's completely free. Please check out ertw's beguiler conversion and see what you think!

Penumbral Shadow wrote:

I'm currently working with one of my players who's running a beguiler to develop a new cantrip that he wants to make his signature spell. It opens an extradimensional link between one of his pockets and the pocket/coinpurse/other small container of another person within close range. This lets him reach into his own pocket and have his hand appear in theirs. The rules we're hashing out right now include: can't bring magical items through the link, must make sleight of hand check to successfully steal still and if the target reaches into the pocket it breaks the spell. Kind of a fun little situational trick that's mostly just good for grabbing keys and coins on the sly.

So what happens when the beguiler has his hand in somebody's pocket and they break the spell by reaching in to their own pocket? Seems like a crummy (though hilariously appropriate) way to lose a hand.

It'd just shunt the beguiler's hand back to his own pocket.