Why low magic?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

101 to 150 of 770 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>

Matthew Downie wrote:
...or a law against raising the dead or the ruler's successor wants his predecessor to stay dead so he can take over or the ruler is poor or there aren't any high level divine casters in the kingdom or the high level divine casters didn't like the ruler or the ruler's soul doesn't want to return or Pharasma doesn't want the ruler to return... I find it's best to assume that most souls are claimed by the gods and are unable to return, and that heroes (and sometimes villains) are the exception.

None of that is in the spell description. You see, you just had to create reasons why it's not used all the time. Why heroes? What makes your heroes so special? Why would anyone rule a law that they can't be resurrected? Would you really do such when you are actually in control? This debate could go on, but that would be for another thread...

Matthew Downie wrote:
Wouldn't you have to scry upon everyone all the time? Seems like it would be a lot harder to do that in Golarion than in our society with cheap video cameras.

Only the people you're suspicious of. Or areas you just need to watch. Not as cheap or abundant as video cameras, but a hell of a lot harder to get past.

Matthew Downie wrote:
Ragnarok Aeon wrote:
The separation between poor and rich would be that much greater.
I don't see how this harms immersion.

Not much, but it does make any story where the poor overcome the rich, that much more difficult.

Matthew Downie wrote:
Ragnarok Aeon wrote:
And I ache every time I see the excuse "Well people fear magic, because it's different". If that's so true, then we wouldn't have people going to magic shows, or taking advice from "psychics".
That's a cultural value. It's not inherent to humanity. In other times, anyone suspected of witchcraft was burned at the stake.

You know, in context, those accused of witchcraft were burnt out of fear that they are puppets of the devil or spirits. Exactly as I described in the paragraph right after the one you quoted...


A DM can control magic users' access to spells just as he controls all the PCs' access to magic items. It is not necessary to outright ban, for example, teleport in your world. You can just make it a really rare spell, and make finding the formula to cast it akin to finding a legitimately powerful magic item (and let's face it: in terms of power, it is).

Omitting lots of flavor and setting-specific explanations, I basically run low magic as such:

1) The ability to use "true magic" (that is, full casting class) is about a one in a million thing. In a pre-industrial world of roughly one billion people, this means that there are approximately 1,000 full casters at any time. Maybe this is "medium magic", I dunno. Magic users are known, but far from common, and generally the objects of fear and respect. They tend to wield a great deal of political power, but do not monopolize the apparatus of the state.

2) No buying or creating magic items for the PCs.

3) Limited spell lists available through standard Wizard colleges. What can be easily acquired is basically any Paizo official spell in a given Wizard's school of specialty, plus all the Universal spells and all of the spells which exist in both the AD&D Player's Handbook and Pathfinder, so basically the staples. Anything outside of this has to be found in the wild or researched.

I find that this puts meaningful limits of the Wizard's ability to "go all Schrödinger" on every situation without really nerfing the class, per se. Scrolls found in the wild are priced as normal, and end up taking up the lion's share of the Wizard's loot while the martials accumulate permanent effect items.


Arikiel wrote:
Wiggz wrote:

Just throwing this out there - we ran a campaign where all full caster classes along with the Summoner were banned for PC's (they still existed as villains). That by itself completely changed the group dynamic and their approach to things.

Then we scaled all magic items back to custom-made stuff and used 'wbl' to allow PC's to buy enhancement bonuses to their characters rather than accumulate it through a dozen plus magic items a piece. Mechanically it was much the same but it made the campaign feel like it was more about what the PC's could do rather than what they could buy.

I've done a setting that was cut off from the divine realms and there were no divine casters at all. Which basically just made witches the primary healers. It really changed the feel of things though.

Anyways! Along the same lines I've toyed with the idea of doing a setting where there are no casters at all available to the PCs. Just Barbarians, Cavaliers, Monks, Fighters, Skirmisher Rangers, Rogues, Brawlers, Slayers, Swashbucklers, and maybe Gunslingers. Not really sure how that would work though. As there'd be no magic healing and pretty much all magic items would be like artifices.

I've thought of doing this after getting a third party product that allowed the Heal skill to be used to perform surgery to remove ability damage and craft alchemy to make fast healing salves.


Malwing wrote:
I've thought of doing this after getting a third party product that allowed the Heal skill to be used to perform surgery to remove ability damage and craft alchemy to make fast healing salves.

Which third party material would have information on non-magical healing like that?


Malwing wrote:


I've done a setting that was cut off from the divine realms and there were no divine casters at all. Which basically just made witches the primary healers. It really changed the feel of things though.

Anyways! Along the same lines I've toyed with the idea of doing a setting where there are no casters at all available to the PCs. Just Barbarians, Cavaliers, Monks, Fighters, Skirmisher Rangers, Rogues, Brawlers, Slayers, Swashbucklers, and maybe Gunslingers. Not really sure how that would work though. As there'd be no magic healing and pretty much all magic items would be like artifices.

I've thought of doing this after getting a third party product that allowed the Heal skill to be used to perform surgery to remove ability damage and craft alchemy to make fast healing salves.

That would actually solve a lot of complaints, including "rogues are desperately overshadowed".


Atarlost wrote:
Quark Blast wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
<snip>Beren and Luthien had possibly just one magic item between them and Luthien was so epically powerful she could put an entire fortress to sleep. That's thousands of hit dice over a range of probably over a mile most of them through solid rock.<snip>

Precisely my point!

In D&D terms Luthien could sing Morgoth <cough>Orcus<cough> to sleep in his own fortress and both Beren and Luthien could just set Balrogs <cough>Balors<cough> on ignore as they gallivant around the continent.

Very high magic indeed.

And yet it's still low magic by PF standards. There are far fewer magic items;

Yeah. I mean, that party of Nine Walkers had nothing. Just the single most powerful Artifact in the world, the 3rd most powerful artifact, a artifact sword, two powerful relic named swords, 4 bane short swords, a Staff of Power, the Invulnerable Coat of Arnt, a powerful relic Crystal, Aragorns ring, Boromirs horn and a host of other things including cloaks, clasps, bows, rope, food, and what-not . The party was loaded.Heck magic weapons were so common no one noted the powerful bane daggers that the hobbits carried until one of them brought the Witchking to his knees.

And there's indications that low level items weren't even talked about. The Official LotR RPG had Gimli with what we'd call a +2 axe and chainmail, etc. Nothing special, they didnt glow or anything.

The problem with the term "Low magic" is that it covers so much ground. I dont use "Ye Olde Magik Shoppe". Other than potions and such, what you find is what you get. Plenty of "Phat lewt" tho. Some call that "low magic".

As for "D&D spellcasters are more powerful than literature or other games:
In Zelazny's Amber they could do things that would make a Epic level wizard cry himself to sleep at nite.

Merlin? In some stories, yes, he was THAT powerful.

Rune priests in Runequest can do a lot due to Deific intervention. Basically anything.

Harry Dresden killed ALL the vampires in the world with one spell. (Ok, it was a really special ritual, etc, but in the later books, he can do a LOT as a blaster-mage).

In T&T super high level Mages can do anything. Same with C&S.

Dr. Strange.

Raymond E. Feist's Pug.

Phantom Stranger.

The Spectre.

Dr Fate.

(all comics depend heavily upon the writer)

Belgarath.

Coin the "sourcerer".


Arikiel wrote:
Malwing wrote:
I've thought of doing this after getting a third party product that allowed the Heal skill to be used to perform surgery to remove ability damage and craft alchemy to make fast healing salves.
Which third party material would have information on non-magical healing like that?

Rite Publishing's 101 New Skill Uses allows for Heal skill surgeries.

I forgot where the healing salve came from. I'd have to go home and dig through my books to tell you. At some point I got a number of products to make skills more useful for situations like 'nobody picks a divine caster' or parties full of martials.


Dreaming Psion wrote:
Malwing wrote:
I'd like to ask. When people say "low magic" do they mean Low caster power or low magic items? Do full casters make magic mundane or the abundance of magic items?

I would say that to have low magic items you'd sure as shootin' better bring down the casters with them, considering how much less casters depend on gear than everybody else.

I've run several low magic games. Caster tend to suffer, should say arcane caster suffer the most. The classes that excel are Paladin and Magi due class features that make their weapon magical.

The biggest problem with sorcerers and wizards is defenses. They lack them with out magic items. They can use spells to cover that but as soon as they do that they lack offense. Basically they burn through resource much much faster.

If you want a touch party for low magic game go with a Paladin, Magus, Inquisitor, and an arcane duelist. By level 7 everyone will have magic weapon via class features and spells.

Sovereign Court

Zardnaar wrote:
David Eddings has a handful of spell casters, even Magician by Feist spell casters are rare and cannot easily do what D&D wizards pull off. Wheel of Time magic is rare.

I'd actually say that in The Wheel of Time magic is one case where magic in a noval is even more powerful than in pathfinder, just without conjuration type stuff to summon up an army. (though bad guys do similar stuff creating monstrous creatures etc - though that's slower)

Consider what the average spellcaster can do in The Wheel of Time vs in Pathfinder. They can cast fireballs (and better) over & over, teleport across the world with pinpoint accuracy and bring armies along with them. Not to mention mind control which apparently has no will-save equivilent. Plus they have healing every bit as good as a cleric's, just with no ressurrection. (late in the series they def. have restoration equiv. though)

Sure - in the first few books magic users are relatively rare. (only 1000ish full fledged Aes Sedai in the world) But by the end they're all over the place and easily ten times the magic users, and more than one person is making all sorts of magic items.

Plus, while they're rare in the general populace, all of the top tier villians are either spellcasters, or have access to magic powers of some sort which make normal people easy pickings.

So - please don't bring up The Wheel of Time as an example of low magic. Quite the opposite.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

When I hear low magic I think low power. One of the reasons I am thinking of running a low magic game, is I do not yet have the skill to run a high magic game.

I have a hard time taking into account many of the spells over 5th level spells.


I had a total of one (1) low-magic campaign that actually worked. And it had a lot of house rules to make it possible:

(1) E10, so nobody reaches 11th level, and there are no 6th+ level spells. Teleport is an incredible magical feat, mastered only by the greatest "magical technicians."
(2) No permanent magic items, but potions and wands were OK.
(3) Humans only.
(4) No "monsters" other than human NPCs and various real-life animals.
(5) Heavily investigation-themed, to make skills seem more important.

None of the other D&D-based efforts I've seen have been particularly successful.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Tursic wrote:

When I hear low magic I think low power. One of the reasons I am thinking of running a low magic game, is I do not yet have the skill to run a high magic game.

I have a hard time taking into account many of the spells over 5th level spells.

So does everyone else :P - hence PFS ending not long after people get them. Just start at level 1-3 and you should be fine.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I've never been overly fond of low-magic in Pathfinder, since without a lot of house rules it can really throw off the balance of the game. Especially when a lot of low-magic rules seem to end up being "You get 1/4 of your normal wbl, and I won't let you spend your gold on anything but consumables." Which can often come across as less of a low-magic game than it is a GM who doesn't want his players to have nice things.

Really, the way to fix stuff like the Christmas Tree Effect without needing to overhaul the system/alter CRs would be to roll a lot of the assumed magic items into character advancement. Have saves and stats advance more often, add some sort of level-based modifier to AC, etc.


Chengar Qordath wrote:
I've never been overly fond of low-magic in Pathfinder, since without a lot of house rules it can really throw off the balance of the game.

House Rule 1: Normal humans have a level 10 cap (using slow leveling).

No it really doesn't require a lot of house rule that throw off game balance.


Although its a d20 setting and not Pathfinder, there is also xoth.net, with Xoth being a Conan-esque setting and subsystem. Endzeitgeist, the reviewer, rates it highly. If I recall, spells only go up to 3rd level, but the spell list is much smaller than standard PF, more like no area effect spells like Fireball and mostly only lesser utility spells are allowed. The concept that using any magic is corrupting to the caster, so casting any spell is dangerous. Something else to compare against and its published, not homebrew/house rules. Their adventure modules read a lot like a Howard book than a typical adventure.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:


David Eddings has a handful of spell casters, even Magician by Feist spell casters are rare and cannot easily do what D&D wizards pull off. Wheel of Time magic is rare.

Frequency of spellcasters in the general population is not a good indicator of "high" or "low" magic, and in fact, is one of the traps that a lot of people trying to run a low magic game run into. It doesn't matter if only seven people in the entire world are spellcasters if one of those seven people are part of the adventuring party -- and, in fact, I think I just described the Fellowship of the Ring.

What you end up with instead is a party that has spellcasters (because that's what people want to play) in a world that doesn't (because that's what the GM wants to run), and the result is that the spellcasters are even more dominant than they would otherwise be,... or the GM has to nerf the spellcasters into the ground to prevent them from taking over the universe with simple low-level spells like charm person, invisibility, and levitate.

The power level of LoTR is also lower than D&D though. They did not teleport to mount doom and throw the ring in.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
the secret fire wrote:
Scythia wrote:
The wonder or banality of magic is a state of mind, not a function of rules.

True, though the wonder and banality of anything is also partially a function of its ubiquity. No matter what tools your WoD mage used to scratch his ass, he was still, I'm sure, an extremely rare creature in his world.

Wonder, like terror, comes in large part from the unknown.

The rarity of something is relative. In the rebellion era of Star Wars, Jedi were extremely rare, probably less than half a dozen total. If your party was Han, Chewie, Leia, and Luke, Jedi (and by extension the Force) wouldn't seem rare at all.

So, no matter how low magic the system, magic won't seem rare if someone in the party can use it.


Zardnaar wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:


David Eddings has a handful of spell casters, even Magician by Feist spell casters are rare and cannot easily do what D&D wizards pull off. Wheel of Time magic is rare.

Frequency of spellcasters in the general population is not a good indicator of "high" or "low" magic, and in fact, is one of the traps that a lot of people trying to run a low magic game run into. It doesn't matter if only seven people in the entire world are spellcasters if one of those seven people are part of the adventuring party -- and, in fact, I think I just described the Fellowship of the Ring.

What you end up with instead is a party that has spellcasters (because that's what people want to play) in a world that doesn't (because that's what the GM wants to run), and the result is that the spellcasters are even more dominant than they would otherwise be,... or the GM has to nerf the spellcasters into the ground to prevent them from taking over the universe with simple low-level spells like charm person, invisibility, and levitate.

The power level of LoTR is also lower than D&D though. They did not teleport to mount doom and throw the ring in.

It's also way higher, there is no way for a pathfinder wizard to control weather from hundreds of miles away.

Or, you know, power is all relative, they still could have just ridden giant eagles if the narrative hadn't demanded an epic journey of epicness, and teleportation isn't so much "powerful" as "ruins certain kinds of quests."

I mean, if Lord of the Rings had been about FINDING the ring by searching tombs, chasing clues, and racing against the Dark Lord's Sneaky Minions™; being able to teleport would not have been a problem OR particularly helpful. But that wasn't the story.


Scythia wrote:

The rarity of something is relative. In the rebellion era of Star Wars, Jedi were extremely rare, probably less than half a dozen total. If your party was Han, Chewie, Leia, and Luke, Jedi (and by extension the Force) wouldn't seem rare at all.

So, no matter how low magic the system, magic won't seem rare if someone in the party can use it.

Yeah, I dunno...you are essentially saying that nothing outside of the party, itself, is relevant to how magic is perceived - that "low magic" simply doesn't work unless the party is restricted to martials. Indeed, following the logic of your argument to its conclusion, it becomes impossible for the party to feel special in any way. Whatever they have or learn to do, no matter how rare such things are in the world, becomes old hat as soon as they've gotten a hold of it.

This is a bizarre position - deeply pessimistic and solipsistic at the same time. You're basically assuming here that the players engage in crass navel-gazing and ignore the world around them. I hope your players aren't actually like that.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
DrDeth wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
Quark Blast wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
<snip>Beren and Luthien had possibly just one magic item between them and Luthien was so epically powerful she could put an entire fortress to sleep. That's thousands of hit dice over a range of probably over a mile most of them through solid rock.<snip>

Precisely my point!

In D&D terms Luthien could sing Morgoth <cough>Orcus<cough> to sleep in his own fortress and both Beren and Luthien could just set Balrogs <cough>Balors<cough> on ignore as they gallivant around the continent.

Very high magic indeed.

And yet it's still low magic by PF standards. There are far fewer magic items;

Yeah. I mean, that party of Nine Walkers had nothing. Just the single most powerful Artifact in the world, the 3rd most powerful artifact, a artifact sword, two powerful relic named swords, 4 bane short swords, a Staff of Power, the Invulnerable Coat of Arnt, a powerful relic Crystal, Aragorns ring, Boromirs horn and a host of other things including cloaks, clasps, bows, rope, food, and what-not . The party was loaded.Heck magic weapons were so common no one noted the powerful bane daggers that the hobbits carried until one of them brought the Witchking to his knees.

And there's indications that low level items weren't even talked about. The Official LotR RPG had Gimli with what we'd call a +2 axe and chainmail, etc. Nothing special, they didnt glow or anything.

The problem with the term "Low magic" is that it covers so much ground. I dont use "Ye Olde Magik Shoppe". Other than potions and such, what you find is what you get. Plenty of "Phat lewt" tho. Some call that "low magic".

As for "D&D spellcasters are more powerful than literature or other games:
In Zelazny's Amber they could do things that would make a Epic level wizard cry himself to sleep at nite.

Merlin? In some stories, yes, he was THAT powerful.

Rune priests in Runequest can do a lot due to Deific...

The fact that allot of items that would be considered normal or mid range at best are considered artifact level or relics in LOTR tells you that it is a low magic campaign world, in general, rather than a high. A good bit of that magic happened to end up concentrated in the hands of the pcs, so to speak. But high magic world it wasn't.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
boring7 wrote:


Or, you know, power is all relative, they still could have just ridden giant eagles if the narrative hadn't demanded an epic journey of epicness,

No. This meme keeps coming up, but it's completely wrong. The Eye and Will of Sauron would stop the Eagles and the Nazgul would make short work of them.

About Bilbos Mithril shirt: it's not just a D&D Mithral shirt.
http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Mithril
"A kingly gift, Gandalf states that the Mithril-coat was actually worth more than the entire Shire and everything in it (though Gandalf says that he never told Bilbo, Frodo suspects Bilbo knew to some extent). Its value seems to have been even greater, however. After leaving Moria, the Fellowship has a chance to examine the shirt, and Gimli says, "I have never seen or heard tell of one so fair" and that Gandalf "undervalued it."

It saved Frodo's life when he was nearly skewered by an Orc-chieftain in the Mines of Moria. Aragorn said the thrust was strong enough to skewer a wild boar, but the Orc's spear point could not penetrate the mithril-alloy armour coat. Yet, the leather shirt beneath the Mithril was punctured with the force of the blow and Frodo was bruised and in pain."
http://www.henneth-annun.net/resources/things_view.cfm?thid=221

"'Look, my friends!' he called. 'Here's a pretty hobbit-skin to wrap an elven-princeling in! If it were known that hobbits had such hides, all the hunters of Middle-earth would be riding to the Shire.'

'And all the arrows of all the hunters in the world would be in vain,' said Gimli, gazing at the mail in wonder. 'It is a mithril-coat. Mithril! I have never seen or heard tell of one so fair. Is this the coat that Gandalf spoke of? Then he undervalued it. But it was well given!'...."

The shirt is 100% arrow proof. Its value is not a mere 1000gps, but more than a entire county. It stops a critical hit from a mountain troll with nothing but non-lethal damage.

The original Invulnerable Coat of Arnd was designed to mirror the shirt. I was around back then, you know.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Obligatory.

Paizo Glitterati Robot

Removed a post and reply. Let's leave the personal jabs out of the thread.


Dresden Tangent @ DrDeth:
DrDeth wrote:
. . . Harry Dresden killed ALL the vampires in the world with one spell. (Ok, it was a really special ritual, etc, but in the later books, he can do a LOT as a blaster-mage). . . .

The ritual took lots of vampires sacrificing a lot of people before hand. Not only could Harry Dresden not magically be able to accomplish something like this on his own, he would not have the heartlessness to be able to trap and restrain everyone he's ever killed in self defense, fly them to a hidden temple, and then cut out their heart.

That my friends, is the power of plot. If we had to use a D&D analogy, he made the proper bluff/diplomacy check and then used a full round action to pull the trigger on the REALLY BIG GUN somebody else set up for him... a gun he could have never constructed, loaded, or carried on his own.

But yeah. It's a high magic setting where the high magic is relatively hidden. Only those born with "the gift" can use magic, and your gift determines how powerful you can get in the setting. Mechanically, it's like limiting the amount of spellcaster levels they can take, while the monster characters can always take more monster levels (and in that game, monstrous humanoid/magical beast/undead hit die don't suck).

As much as I hate the "I inherited Awesome" element of bloodlines in some fiction, Harry has inherited Awesome from his mother's side of the family AND originally made a deal with the fey, which has been shown in the books to really be a powerful, but loaded, shortcut.

Harry's magic also isn't slot based... but he is one hell of an evoker. He's one of my favorites lately.

Kirth Gersen wrote:

I had a total of one (1) low-magic campaign that actually worked. And it had a lot of house rules to make it possible:

(1) E10, so nobody reaches 11th level, and there are no 6th+ level spells. Teleport is an incredible magical feat, mastered only by the greatest "magical technicians."
(2) No permanent magic items, but potions and wands were OK.
(3) Humans only.
(4) No "monsters" other than human NPCs and various real-life animals.
(5) Heavily investigation-themed, to make skills seem more important.

None of the other D&D-based efforts I've seen have been particularly successful.

It's kind of funny that you should mention this. I've been thinking about doing an E8 or E10 for my group off and on for a while now, but just never got around to it.

I also realized that magic in d20 modern came from PrCs that capped out at 5th level spells, so functionally, it works kind of the same as an E10 game, even if you went all 20 levels. (But modern has a whole other set of issues.)


DrDeth wrote:
boring7 wrote:


Or, you know, power is all relative, they still could have just ridden giant eagles if the narrative hadn't demanded an epic journey of epicness,
No. This meme keeps coming up, but it's completely wrong. The Eye and Will of Sauron would stop the Eagles and the Nazgul would make short work of them.

Meh, it's no different than hoping a band of murderhobos won't get noticed on their overland trek (they were spotted a couple of times, I recall) or saying The Eye and Will of Sauron wouldn't re-direct an attempted teleport spell just as easily as he could shoot down Eagle Airlines.

They didn't use the eagles because reasons which were post-processing excuses to keep the plot on the rails. And let me be clear there is NOTHING wrong with that. That is how you write a story and it was a good story. But the eagles aren't functionally different from teleportation, flight magic, or Dr. Cid showing up in his just-repaired airship.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
boring7 wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
boring7 wrote:


Or, you know, power is all relative, they still could have just ridden giant eagles if the narrative hadn't demanded an epic journey of epicness,
No. This meme keeps coming up, but it's completely wrong. The Eye and Will of Sauron would stop the Eagles and the Nazgul would make short work of them.
band of murderhobos

This term should be shot dead, and it especially doesnt apply to the Nine Walkers.

Dark Archive

Dr.D wrote:

"'Look, my friends!' he called. 'Here's a pretty hobbit-skin to wrap an elven-princeling in! If it were known that hobbits had such hides, all the hunters of Middle-earth would be riding to the Shire.'

'And all the arrows of all the hunters in the world would be in vain,' said Gimli, gazing at the mail in wonder. 'It is a mithril-coat. Mithril! I have never seen or heard tell of one so fair. Is this the coat that Gandalf spoke of? Then he undervalued it. But it was well given!'...."

The shirt is 100% arrow proof. Its value is not a mere 1000gps, but more than a entire county. It stops a critical hit from a mountain troll with nothing but non-lethal damage.

Also because hit points are an abstraction?

Also because if Quab 3-fingers had it on (level 1 commoner) the blow from the Orc Chieftan Shadowmelded Spearmaster (template and 3rd party class) would have killed him? Cause... more hit points due to level?

Also because it was a book or movie and Frodo was wearing something better than the finest Mithril Shirt, he also had on plot armor.

Dark Archive

boring7 wrote:
They didn't use the eagles because reasons which were post-processing excuses to keep the plot on the rails. And let me be clear there is NOTHING wrong with that.

That doesn't need to be the reason though. There could be all sorts of flying nasty's that could easily overwhelm a flock of eagles (seagulls) thus risking the ring.

Actually, I don't know if flying nasty's were a problem detailed in any of the books (don't remember nor do I really care), but it could have been an easy justification for a "no-fly zone" that would make going that route for the mission too risky.

This of course, does not address teleport.


Auxmaulous wrote:
Also because it was a book or movie and Frodo (...) had on plot armor.

Which in this case takes the form of a physical armour.

also, concerning using the Eagles... (safe for work)


4 people marked this as a favorite.
the secret fire wrote:
Scythia wrote:

The rarity of something is relative. In the rebellion era of Star Wars, Jedi were extremely rare, probably less than half a dozen total. If your party was Han, Chewie, Leia, and Luke, Jedi (and by extension the Force) wouldn't seem rare at all.

So, no matter how low magic the system, magic won't seem rare if someone in the party can use it.

Yeah, I dunno...you are essentially saying that nothing outside of the party, itself, is relevant to how magic is perceived - that "low magic" simply doesn't work unless the party is restricted to martials. Indeed, following the logic of your argument to its conclusion, it becomes impossible for the party to feel special in any way. Whatever they have or learn to do, no matter how rare such things are in the world, becomes old hat as soon as they've gotten a hold of it.

This is a bizarre position - deeply pessimistic and solipsistic at the same time. You're basically assuming here that the players engage in crass navel-gazing and ignore the world around them. I hope your players aren't actually like that.

Pessimistic? I would suggest it's realistic. Anything that you see someone do multiple times a day isn't going to seem special. Whether or not it's rare in the broader world won't affect the fact that it's common to the party. Let's say I had telekinesis, and use it regularly to perform tasks. Surely my friends would at first be surprised by it, and think it special, but if we traveled together for days on end (like adventuring parties do), they would get used to my telekinesis. Even if I was the only telekinetic they ever heard about in the entire world, telekinesis would be no big deal to them anymore.

Besides, I would argue that a tabletop gaming world is solipsistic by design. No matter what happens in a gaming world, unless it directly or indirectly affects the player characters, it doesn't really matter. If Farmer McGee breaks his leg, has a bad harvest, and has to give up his farm, it doesn't matter unless the player characters know (and care about) Farmer McGee, or if it leads to other plot affecting the characters. In that sense, things that don't affect the characters may as well not exist.


Still, Middle Earth is a low-magic setting, especially in the third age.

Middle Earth has magic, so it isn't a no-magic setting. Some of it has a rather large scope, such as ignoring winter and natural decay in a whole country, making a volcano erupt or condemning a whole nation to become ghosts. Many locales seem to be able to act according to the will of an individual, such as the Old Forest with Old-man Willow or the high pass on the Caradhras, which are typically beyond the scope of typical D&D PC.

Even then, such powerful effects cannot seem to be possible without powerful items/artifacts/title, such as the rings of power (who were created by the most skilled magical craftsman of the second age with the help of Sauron, who was sort of a demi-god and the right-hand of the most single powerful gods save the creator himself). Even then, most of such big magical effects took centuries to prepare.

Invisibility is a BIG thing, and only possible with the One Ring (although Gandalf implies that such can be granted by lesser rings as well). Scrying seems to be reserved to the three individuals in the world possessing a palantir (who all end-up being antagonists). Those are otherwise early-level, go-to spells for most spellcasters in high-magic fantasy RPGs. Even a lowly endure elements would have been a life-safer, which only Gandalf and Legolas seemed to have by simple virtue of being a mayar and an elf.

While big magical effects had a big impact on the story of the LotR, they are relatively tame compared to how magic change the life of ordinary people (not to mention adventurers) in D&D.

So while we do see spells such as light, arcane lock, pyrotechnics, control flames, we don't see effects that allow casters to fly, teleport, gain knowledge of your surroundings, blast your opponent with magic repetitively (although Gandlaf is a bit more potent in The Hobbit in this regard)), or spells that enlarge, haste or amplify the strength of your allies (although inspiration-type spells or effect are used by casters and martial characters alike).

By the third age in Middle Earth, magic is not only rarer than in most D&D settings, spellcasters have a severely limited "spell list" to speak in D&D terms.


Scythia wrote:
Besides, I would argue that a tabletop gaming world is solipsistic by design. No matter what happens in a gaming world, unless it directly or indirectly affects the player characters, it doesn't really matter. If Farmer McGee breaks his leg, has a bad harvest, and has to give up his farm, it doesn't matter unless the player characters know (and care about) Farmer McGee, or if it leads to other plot affecting the characters. In that sense, things that don't affect the characters may as well not exist.

This describes all of fiction.

Scythia wrote:
Pessimistic? I would suggest it's realistic. Anything that you see someone do multiple times a day isn't going to seem special. Whether or not it's rare in the broader world won't affect the fact that it's common to the party. Let's say I had telekinesis, and use it regularly to perform tasks. Surely my friends would at first be surprised by it, and think it special, but if we traveled together for days on end (like adventuring parties do), they would get used to my telekinesis. Even if I was the only telekinetic they ever heard about in the entire world, telekinesis would be no big deal to them anymore.

This principle is the basis of the "it only works once" trope. Wherein a totally awesome power or finishing move that won the day or killed the baddie stops being effective next episode/chapter/session. It is difficult to use this trope in gaming.


Scythia wrote:
Pessimistic? I would suggest it's realistic. Anything that you see someone do multiple times a day isn't going to seem special. Whether or not it's rare in the broader world won't affect the fact that it's common to the party. Let's say I had telekinesis, and use it regularly to perform tasks. Surely my friends would at first be surprised by it, and think it special, but if we traveled together for days on end (like adventuring parties do), they would get used to my telekinesis. Even if I was the only telekinetic they ever heard about in the entire world, telekinesis would be no big deal to them anymore.

Luckily, Wizards are always learning new spells and increasing in power. Any given spell may eventually succumb to banality, but that doesn't mean spellcasting, as a whole, is destined to meet the same fate, in any setting or power level. In lower magic games, acquiring a new and powerful spell should be a big deal, and yes, this trick is repeatable all the way up through the levels.

The fact that we know Maggie the Mage can throw fireballs doesn't stop more powerful effects from being interesting and spectacular. Indeed, the Vancian magic system is basically set up to keep magic fresh and novel...if it's not just handed out like candy. The DM who lets his Wizard buy a scroll of Time Stop at the corner store has no one to blame but himself if his players don't experience any wonder in the face of such power.

Quote:
Besides, I would argue that a tabletop gaming world is solipsistic by design. No matter what happens in a gaming world, unless it directly or indirectly affects the player characters, it doesn't really matter. If Farmer McGee breaks his leg, has a bad harvest, and has to give up his...

It's really not that hard to build immersive worlds if you put your mind to it. If what you're doing is playing PFS or by-the-book APs all the time...yeah, the whole world is pretty much on rails: your party and the dungeon in front of them. The possibilities of gaming are, however, much greater than that.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
the secret fire wrote:
Indeed, the Vancian magic system is basically set up to keep magic fresh and novel...if it's not just handed out like candy. The DM who lets his Wizard buy a scroll of Time Stop at the corner store has no one to blame but himself if his players don't experience any wonder in the face of such power.

Well, himself and the Core rules themselves, which explicitly hand out new spells like candy. Two free spells per level, plus dirt cheap scrolls (comparatively) per the rulebook prices, with easy availability in the corner store based on the settlement item limit guidelines printed right there in the book.

Yes, the DM can houserule all that otherwise. I just disagree that "blame the DM for following the rules" is necessarily a really good precedent to set.


i wouldn't so much say middle earth was low magic, as much as there were a massive variety of low level magic items and magical effects that seemed to be considered relatively mundane compared to Frodo's Invulnerable Coat of Arnd and Intelligent Ring of invisibility, or even compared to Gandalf's Staff of the Magi

there were things that most fantasy RPGs would consider to be minor magic items everywhere, and while there were relatively few who made a life out of being a dedicated wizard, just about all the major characters had a few effects that could be considered minor magic

it is really a high magic world with a few tweaks, any individual can learn minor magic with training (Feats?), there are a mountain of minor magic items that everybody considers to be relatively common and mundane, and well, the fellowship can't cross but a simple forest without finding more minor magical gear

while there isn't a lot of flight or teleportation, all the main antagonists could scry, a half elf made a pact with a ghost army, inspiration and morale effects are a dime a dozen, and minor magical healing is pretty much used quite frequently and with quite a bit of adandon


Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
i wouldn't so much say middle earth was low magic, as much as there were a massive variety of low level magic items and magical effects...

I wouldn't call that a massive amount, even if we count elven Lambras or Beorn's honey-cakes as magical.

The character's in LotR are possibly the most magically equipped character in the last 1000 years of the third age and even if we consider them 1-6 level characters, they remain pretty under-equiped in terms of resources (spells and equipment) compared to a typical 1-6 level adventurer band.

Never mind the whole setting, change the fellowship for a typical group of 9 D&D/Pathfinder adventurers and the story is severely altered by the player's resources and possibilities (especially one that is composed of one of the most prominent wizard of the world, a king in exile, two princes, the son of an extremely rich and famous dwarven lord and the blessings of two elven "kings").


Arikiel wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
I've never been overly fond of low-magic in Pathfinder, since without a lot of house rules it can really throw off the balance of the game.

House Rule 1: Normal humans have a level 10 cap (using slow leveling).

No it really doesn't require a lot of house rule that throw off game balance.

I imagine there'd be quite a bit of dispute about whether 10th level characters with level 10 wbl qualify as low magic. That's not a low-magic game, it's just a game that ends at level 10.

Though that does bring another one of the issues with low magic to mind; it's one of those terms that seems to have a lot of different meanings. I've seen people use low magic to mean fewer magic items but spellcasters just as strong as ever (actually stronger, relatively speaking) or to mean untouched magic items, while spellcasting is heavily toned down.


Laurefindel wrote:

Still, Middle Earth is a low-magic setting, especially in the third age.

Middle Earth has magic, so it isn't a no-magic setting. Some of it has a rather large scope, such as ignoring winter and natural decay in a whole country, making a volcano erupt or condemning a whole nation to become ghosts. Many locales seem to be able to act according to the will of an individual, such as the Old Forest with Old-man Willow or the high pass on the Caradhras, which are typically beyond the scope of typical D&D PC.

Invisibility is a BIG thing, and only possible with the One Ring (although Gandalf implies that such can be granted by lesser rings as well). Scrying seems to be reserved to the three individuals in the world possessing a palantir (who all end-up being antagonists).

Well, in The Hobbit, Gandalf vanishes with a blast of bright light. He also made Bilbo look like that's how he vanished. So, apparently- a flash, smoke, then re-appear is a common enough trick. Gandalf is also known to be able to counter any spell. He used a Blinding Light and Lightning spells, as well as blasting a stone bridge to pieces in one hit.

Saruman controlled the weather, and made tens of thousands of UrukHai from slime down in pits (in others he bred them, but in the Histories it was made clear he "grew" them). He was able to Charm the WitchKing of Angmar with his Voice- a pretty good trick.

Elrond also had the Gift of Foresight, without a Palantir. He could summon a flood.

We actually only see one mage in action- Gandalf, who is given many limitations on usage of his power.

Apparently there were other mages. Sauron disguises himself as "The Necromancer" and Saruman, Elrond and the rest assume he is just a rather powerful spellcaster of some sort. They simply accept that as unexceptional.

Beorn doesnt trust magic users except Radagast- and thus he must have run into (and perhaps eaten) some of lower power (and it's clear he's never met Gandalf) . This then indicates that there are a number of adepts, hedge-casters and what not around.


DrDeth wrote:
Well, in The Hobbit, Gandalf vanishes with a blast of bright light. He also made Bilbo look like that's how he vanished. So, apparently- a flash, smoke, then re-appear is a common enough trick. Gandalf is also known to be able to counter any spell. He used a Blinding Light and Lightning spells, as well as blasting a stone bridge to pieces in one hit.

He also is known to have the best fireworks. I can get some of those around holidays and by ordering from China.

DrDeth wrote:
Saruman controlled the weather, and made tens of thousands of UrukHai from slime down in pits (in others he bred them, but in the Histories it was made clear he "grew" them). He was able to Charm the WitchKing of Angmar with his Voice- a pretty good trick.

Oh yeah... I forgot. Lest we forget, Gandalf, Saruman, Ragast, and a few others aren't wizards. They are Lesser Gods.

Wikipedia wrote:

In the fiction of J. R. R. Tolkien, the Wizards of Middle-earth are a group of beings outwardly resembling Men but possessing much greater physical and mental power. They are also called the Istari (Quenya for "Wise Ones") by the Elves. The Sindarin word is Ithryn (sing. Ithron). They were sent by the Valar to assist the peoples of Middle-earth to contest Sauron.

The wizards were Maiar, spirits of the same order as the Valar, but lesser in power. The first three were known in the Mannish tongues as Saruman "man of skill" (Rohirric), Gandalf "elf of the staff" (northern Men), and Radagast "tender of beasts" (possibly Westron).

Emphasis Mine.

DrDeth wrote:

Elrond also had the Gift of Foresight, without a Palantir. He could summon a flood.

We actually only see one mage in action- Gandalf, who is given many limitations on usage of his power.

And considering god-like figures are given limits, I'd say that firmly puts Lord of the Rings on the low magic side for me. I think in the The Silmarillion, there was something about how the Maiar who remained in Middle Earth sealed away large portions of their powers to be allowed to stay and aid men and elves. Sauron made the One Ring as a work around to the limits on Maiar, or at least this is my impression.

I could be wrong. I'm not as up on Tolkien as some.

DrDeth wrote:
Apparently there were other mages. Sauron disguises himself as "The Necromancer" and Saruman, Elrond and the rest assume he is just a rather powerful spellcaster of some sort. They simply accept that as unexceptional.

No. They note that there is an Effing Necromancer and several of the Lesser Gods go to check it out, leaving a group of dwarves without magical help on a mission to fight a Creature of Legendary Power. I don't think Gandalf would have left unless a spellcaster was a Big Thing.

DrDeth wrote:
Beorn doesnt trust magic users except Radagast- and thus he must have run into (and perhaps eaten) some of lower power (and it's clear he's never met Gandalf) . This then indicates that there are a number of adepts, hedge-casters and what not around.

This is a fair point. Other spellcasters do exist in Tolkien's Middle Earth. However, most aren't super awesome. Their powers are subtle. Granted Saruman did teach a human how to do some magic and dominate isn't low level in D&D. But in fantasy literature, using magic to warp perceptions or manipulate others is pretty much a staple of low magic abilities.


DrDeth wrote:
boring7 wrote:
band of murderhobos
This term should be shot dead, and it especially doesnt apply to the Nine Walkers.

As an aside...

Were the Nazgul killers? Yes.
Did they have a home after transitioning to lichdom/the living death where they served Sauron? Not really.

Murderous Hobos TOTALLY APPLIES to the Nazgul, the Ringwraiths, the Black Riders, or simply the Nine.

(Isn't the Nine also one of the Pantheons in The Elderscrolls games?)


Te'Shen wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
boring7 wrote:
band of murderhobos
This term should be shot dead, and it especially doesnt apply to the Nine Walkers.

As an aside...

Were the Nazgul killers? Yes.
Did they have a home after transitioning to lichdom/the living death where they served Sauron? Not really.

Murderous Hobos TOTALLY APPLIES to the Nazgul, the Ringwraiths, the Black Riders, or simply the Nine.

(Isn't the Nine also one of the Pantheons in The Elderscrolls games?)

If you were referencing the Nine Walkers that was Frodo and company. Not so murder-hoboish all in all :) And the Nazgul did indeed have "homes", or at least the Witch King did... Angmar and later Minas Morgul.


R_Chance wrote:
If you were referencing the Nine Walkers that was Frodo and company. Not so murder-hoboish all in all :) And the Nazgul did indeed have "homes", or at least the Witch King did... Angmar and later Minas Morgul.

Huh... for some reason I thought he was talking about the "Nine for mortal men doomed to die..." which are the Ringwraiths. I suppose Frodo's company did technically start out as nine, but Boromir didn't really mesh and died pretty quick, so I kind of have a problem thinking of him as part of the company.

And even if Angmar the Witch King did have a long term habitat, that still means eight of nine Nazgul just seem to be floating around causing death and destruction while one is chilling in his ruin when not busy harrowing hobbits.

Then again, I misunderstand things often enough that this could be one of those instances.


Most people want to make a system where magic is less bountiful to help martials.
But most of the time the rules implemented squash martials under the caster's heels.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
the secret fire wrote:
Indeed, the Vancian magic system is basically set up to keep magic fresh and novel...if it's not just handed out like candy. The DM who lets his Wizard buy a scroll of Time Stop at the corner store has no one to blame but himself if his players don't experience any wonder in the face of such power.

Well, himself and the Core rules themselves, which explicitly hand out new spells like candy. Two free spells per level, plus dirt cheap scrolls (comparatively) per the rulebook prices, with easy availability in the corner store based on the settlement item limit guidelines printed right there in the book.

Yes, the DM can houserule all that otherwise. I just disagree that "blame the DM for following the rules" is necessarily a really good precedent to set.

Discussing a low magic setting is pretty much explicitly a matter of homebrew/house-ruled versions of PF, is it not? I do think a DM has himself to blame if he tries to run a low magic campaign and continues on dispensing new spells from Coke machines.

Broadly speaking, I agree with you. If there's one thing about Core PF rules I can't stand, it is the corner store-style handling of magic items. I guess it's a question of how much responsibility one thinks DMs ought to have for their own worlds. PF is designed as a system that can accommodate a wide range of playstyles; no one is forcing anybody to run campaigns in kitchen sink Golarion. I don't personally find it all that difficult to re-establish the magical item balance which existed in earlier editions.

That said, it would probably be a good thing for Paizo to publish a supplement with structural suggestions on how to do low magic in Pathfinder. Among other things, I think there is a market for it.

Grand Lodge

Worthy to note that Dullahan make excellent ring wraith figures for E6 games if they are re-skinned/re-headed.


the secret fire wrote:

Discussing a low magic setting is pretty much explicitly a matter of homebrew/house-ruled versions of PF, is it not?

That said, it would probably be a good thing for Paizo to publish a supplement with structural suggestions on how to do low magic in Pathfinder. Among other things, I think there is a market for it.

At least it would put a definition on low-magic. I wouldn't need to be the only definition of low-magic, but there would be one to use as a benchmark. Publishing third parties and homebrewing DMs could then crystallise their ideas around that definition, or in contrast to that definition. I'm still surprised that no one attempted this without creating new rules for a specific setting.


Te'Shen wrote:


Oh yeah... I forgot. Lest we forget, Gandalf, Saruman, Ragast, and a few others aren't wizards. They are Lesser Gods.
...

Not even close. The closest thing would be lesser angels. Celestials.


Te'Shen wrote:
No. They note that there is an Effing Necromancer and several of the Lesser Gods go to check it out, leaving a group of dwarves without magical help on a mission to fight a Creature of Legendary Power. I don't think Gandalf would have left unless a spellcaster was a Big Thing.

Not quite. The existence of the Necromancer had been known for some time, long enough for his evil deeds to become legendary (as Gandalf related to Bilbo when they were discussing why they had to go through Mirkwood instead of around). The first "shadow of fear" fell over southern Mirkwood in about the year Third Age 1000, and Gandalf first investigated him in T.A. 2063, nearly a thousand years before the events of The Hobbit.

Gandalf -- who, as Dr Deth pointed out is not a lesser god, but merely a celestial spirit -- discovered that the Necromancer was not, in fact, merely a spellcaster but Sauron himself, in T.A. 2850, but still waited until T.A. 2941 before doing anything about it.

So, basically, there had been an evil spellcaster around for a thousand years before anyone bothered to check it out, and for another thousand years before anyone cared enough to actually figure out who it was, at which point they acted. Hardly a high-priority task, even by Elvish standards.

You also misunderstand Thorin's mission; the point was NOT to fight the dragon (which is why they needed a burglar).

101 to 150 of 770 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Why low magic? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.