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I kind of agree. I dont find staves 'useless' but they certainly have all the downsides you mention.
Instead of standard staves I really like rune staves and wyrd wands from rogue genious games. They are alot more of what I think wands and staves ought to be, implements that enhance or alter your spells instead of spells in a can.
You seem to have it all right. Your running a campaign with less downtime which makes recharging staffs harder which makes them less useful. Pearls of power are incredibly powerful as written so yah they are often better. One thing that staffs still have the advantage of is if you need to cast a whole lot of spells in a single day and start off with a fully charged staff you can do so.
If you want to have more staff wielding wizards then you are probably going to need to homebrew.
You would need ten level-appropriate pearls of power (5 for the staff of charming) to completely eclipse the staff. The benefit of a staff is the ability to cast a lot of spells when you need to and recharge it when you don't. If you only need the one extra slot, stick with the pearl.
I find that my casters and other resource-pool characters have days when they aren't even clise to using up their daily uses and other days when they're bone dry and dipping into their emergency one-off items to stay alive. Staves are great for this if viewed as a long-term investment. Otherwise, just pick up a few scrolls.
Instead of standard staves I really like rune staves and wyrd wands from rogue genious games. They are alot more of what I think wands and staves ought to be, implements that enhance or alter your spells instead of spells in a can.
There's another book by them that's helpful as well! Disclaimer: I wrote it.
To the question though: They're mostly there for backup. They do have one huge advantage over Pearls of Powers though, and that's the fact that PoP require you to spend a standard action to regain a spell you've already cast. So you aren't actually expanding your spell coverage for the day, like you would with a staff (since you wouldn't have to prepare the spell anyways!)
There are some staves with special effects, and those are nice. Maybe come up with your own special effects to add to a staff?
The materials cost is subsumed in the cost of creation: 400 gp × the level of the highest-level spell × the level of the caster, plus 75% of the value of the next most costly ability (300 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster), plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities (200 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster). Staves are always fully charged (10 charges) when created.
The bolded part are the advantage of staves. You can have multiple spells on them and only use them when needed. Being rechargable, their higher cost is the result of an item that you wont have to discard after 50 casts.
And you dont need to actually know the spells contained in the staff, it just has to be on your spell list. So they are a pretty good game for espontanous casters, specially when they have so many daily slots.
Keep in mind that a staff has no restriction on who can recharge it or the spell school, so if a spell is on a cleric's or bard's spell list, those characters can help a wizard recharging his staff. You only need ONE spell to also be on their list. That is really strong on a caster heavy group.
My players love staves. :P
There is one thing that is unclear though, could two casters help each other on crafting a staff? You can aid another (with spells) when creating other items (such as wands), but for staves, it isnt so clear.
Rules Quote:
A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.
If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator's level must be known.
I like staffs but I never purchase them. If I get them during a game though they can be very useful. We used to just sell them for 1/2 price but time and time again we found, "If only we hand sold that staff". So now we get the casters an efficient quiver to hold any staffs we find. Never know when they might come in handy. We rarely encounter enough of them to do that until the really high levels when buying efficient quiver is trivial.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I like staffs but I never purchase them. If I get them during a game though they can be very useful. We used to just sell them for 1/2 price but time and time again we found, "If only we hand sold that staff". So now we get the casters an efficient quiver to hold any staffs we find. Never know when they might come in handy. We rarely encounter enough of them to do that until the really high levels when buying efficient quiver is trivial.
Honestly this is my issue as well. Staves can be fantastic, but the really good ones are so expensive that they get pushed down the purchase priority until after your cloak, rings, amulet, stat boosters, armor(for some casters) and so forth. Yeah my caster would love to have an 80000gp stick o'spells, but not as much as survivability and better personal casting. Once you can really "afford" them, you're already 15th level.
So maybe this is another thing we can blame on the Big Six?
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We can blame this on player expectation that items are things to be ordered via Magic Mart as opposed to being gotten through the luck of discovery.
Honestly this is my issue as well. Staves can be fantastic, but the really good ones are so expensive that they get pushed down the purchase priority until after your cloak, rings, amulet, stat boosters, armor(for some casters) and so forth. Yeah my caster would love to have an 80000gp stick o'spells, but not as much as survivability and better personal casting. Once you can really "afford" them, you're already 15th level.So maybe this is another thing we can blame on the Big Six?
You mean "We can blame this on GMs who try to use the system for low magic despite the fact that 3.5 and by extension Pathfinders system was designed around an expected curve of magical items that are assumed intrinsically as part of the game."
Don't worry I fixed that for you.
Two things staves give are flexibility and endurance.
Flexibility comes from the fact it allows you to cast spells you may not otherwise have access to. If you are a sorcerer then it in effect expands your list of spells known which is incredibly valuable. If you are a wizard it allows you to cast spells you may not have prepared. In both cases you have access to more spells than you normally would.
Staves also act as a battery allowing you to store power when you don’t need it for times you do. If are in a long drawn out adventure having even a limited number of extra spells can save the day. It is a reserve of extra energy and like any reserve you should be using your regular resources first and tapping into the reserve when you need to. If you have a fireball memorized use that first and save the charge for when you need it.
Wands may seem like a better deal and in some cases they are. Wands are good for low level spells that do not depend on level, or require a saving throw. A wand of cure light wounds is probably better than a staff of cure light wounds. A staff of charm person would probably be better than a wand because of the saving throw.
I love when staves are dropped in adventures. For one if a non caster has umd and a caster can recharge it. In rise of the runelords my brownie familiar had a staff with telekinesis... admittedly there were size issues we never adtessed.
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We can blame this on player expectation that items are things to be ordered via Magic Mart as opposed to being gotten through the luck of discovery.
Honestly this is my issue as well. Staves can be fantastic, but the really good ones are so expensive that they get pushed down the purchase priority until after your cloak, rings, amulet, stat boosters, armor(for some casters) and so forth. Yeah my caster would love to have an 80000gp stick o'spells, but not as much as survivability and better personal casting. Once you can really "afford" them, you're already 15th level.So maybe this is another thing we can blame on the Big Six?
You mean "We can blame this on GMs who try to use the system for low magic despite the fact that 3.5 and by extension Pathfinders system was designed around an expected curve of magical items that are assumed intrinsically as part of the game."
Don't worry I fixed that for you.
Yes, those are the only options. You certainly cannot have the GM supply items appropriate to WBL without having full-on Magic Mart. : D
Pathfinder golarion is massively high magic game, so shopping stalls are part of that game
I too think staves aren't that useful. They would be better if they let you cast the spells not on your list
Yes, those are the only options. You certainly cannot have the GM supply items appropriate to WBL without having full-on Magic Mart. : DWe can blame this on player expectation that items are things to be ordered via Magic Mart as opposed to being gotten through the luck of discovery.
Honestly this is my issue as well. Staves can be fantastic, but the really good ones are so expensive that they get pushed down the purchase priority until after your cloak, rings, amulet, stat boosters, armor(for some casters) and so forth. Yeah my caster would love to have an 80000gp stick o'spells, but not as much as survivability and better personal casting. Once you can really "afford" them, you're already 15th level.So maybe this is another thing we can blame on the Big Six?
You mean "We can blame this on GMs who try to use the system for low magic despite the fact that 3.5 and by extension Pathfinders system was designed around an expected curve of magical items that are assumed intrinsically as part of the game."
Don't worry I fixed that for you.
Considering the game rules provide for and assume a certain gp value of items are available in town.... ummm yes the option I suggested is the only one that Pathfinder provides for. A cooperative GM providing the items you want is nice. Being able to buy exactly what you need in the right city size is even better. And really if you are like me you just take crafting feat (Craft Wondrous Item!), and then just make it.
Pathfinder golarion is massively high magic game, so shopping stalls are part of that game
I too think staves aren't that useful. They would be better if they let you cast the spells not on your list
Right, because any item with a GP value greater than a warship or basic palace is readily available, if the city is large enough.
Right, because any item with a GP value greater than a warship or basic palace is readily available, if the city is large enough.Pathfinder golarion is massively high magic game, so shopping stalls are part of that game
I too think staves aren't that useful. They would be better if they let you cast the spells not on your list
Exactly! I'm glad to see someone read the rulebook.
Exactly! I'm glad to see someone read the rulebook.Right, because any item with a GP value greater than a warship or basic palace is readily available, if the city is large enough.Pathfinder golarion is massively high magic game, so shopping stalls are part of that game
I too think staves aren't that useful. They would be better if they let you cast the spells not on your list
And it's equally important that game balance requires a very strict interpretation of the rules. Using in-game social strictures as plot points is completely verboten, because it destroys game balance utterly. Awesome, glad we're on the same page.
And it's equally important that game balance requires a very strict interpretation of the rules. Using in-game social strictures as plot points is completely verboten, because it destroys game balance utterly. Awesome, glad we're on the same page.Exactly! I'm glad to see someone read the rulebook.Right, because any item with a GP value greater than a warship or basic palace is readily available, if the city is large enough.Pathfinder golarion is massively high magic game, so shopping stalls are part of that game
I too think staves aren't that useful. They would be better if they let you cast the spells not on your list
Right, if the players don't have access to the magic items in towns that are assumed as part of the rules, it will completely destroy the game balance. Glad to see you understand how vital magic marts are to the game balance of pathfinder, there are surprisingly some people who don't get that.
Exactly. Other magic items of similar total WBL don't work at all.
I agree, though, crafting is the best way to make sure you've got exactly what you're looking for.
I think ultimately, it's a question of utility with respect to staves. Are you better off with 30K locked into a staff, or spent on other items? If there exists no situation under which the 30K is better in a staff than in other items, then there's a problem with the cost of the staff (or perhaps the other items, if choosing them is always the superior option).
As a quick test, let's say I'm starting a new campaign, but I say to everyone that I've got one (and only one) house rule: there will be no magical staves. Are you worried about playing in this campaign?
As a quick test, let's say I'm starting a new campaign, but I say to everyone that I've got one (and only one) house rule: there will be no magical staves. Are you worried about playing in this campaign?
Yes, though only because Staff of the Master (Necromancy) is one of my favorite magical items ever. It's an exception to general uselessness that is staves though.
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They're good but they're ridiculously overpriced for what many of them do. For the vast majority of spells the caster level is kind of irrelevant so you'd be better off buying a wand.
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Pathfinder golarion is massively high magic game, so shopping stalls are part of that game
Contrary to the DPS Olympians that tend to overrepresent on these forums, Pathfinder, like every edition of D&D before it, is perfectly playable with or without "shopping stalls".
As a quick test, let's say I'm starting a new campaign, but I say to everyone that I've got one (and only one) house rule: there will be no magical staves. Are you worried about playing in this campaign?
Nope. Nor would I if there were no figurines of wondrous power. Considering they have about the same level of representation in the game apart from the scope of their respective crafting feats, I fail to see the point.
I think ultimately, it's a question of utility with respect to staves. Are you better off with 30K locked into a staff, or spent on other items? If there exists no situation under which the 30K is better in a staff than in other items, then there's a problem with the cost of the staff (or perhaps the other items, if choosing them is always the superior option).
Depends on the character and the campaign. I've had characters who would do better with staves than pretty much any alternative. They tend to be wizards in campaigns with wide, predictable variance in daily resource usage, such as those with long periods of peacetime punctuated by intense activities with few opportunities to rest. In a seat-of-your-pants, 1-to-20-in-a-couple-of-months game, naturally this wouldn't work that well.
As a quick test, let's say I'm starting a new campaign, but I say to everyone that I've got one (and only one) house rule: there will be no magical staves. Are you worried about playing in this campaign?Nope. Nor would I if there were no figurines of wondrous power. Considering they have about the same level of representation in the game apart from the scope of their respective crafting feats, I fail to see the point.
Well, let's see.
Now let's say that instead of magical staves, I say there won't be any metamagic rods. Still interested?
How about keen weapons?
Rings of Protection?
Stat-boosting gear?
In all cases, assume I'm only talking about the removal of one class of magic items. How does your feelings about the game change?
As a quick test, let's say I'm starting a new campaign, but I say to everyone that I've got one (and only one) house rule: there will be no magical staves. Are you worried about playing in this campaign?Nope. Nor would I if there were no figurines of wondrous power. Considering they have about the same level of representation in the game apart from the scope of their respective crafting feats, I fail to see the point.Well, let's see.
Now let's say that instead of magical staves, I say there won't be any metamagic rods. Still interested?
How about keen weapons?
Rings of Protection?
Stat-boosting gear?
In all cases, assume I'm only talking about the removal of one class of magic items. How does your feelings about the game change?
Rods: Yup.
Keen weapons: I've never used one.Rings of Protection: Bo-ring.
Stat-boosting gear: That's a pretty wide representation of items compared to "staves", but yes, you can do without those as well.
I would play in any of those games, all else being equal.
Right, if the players don't have access to the magic items in towns that are assumed as part of the rules, it will completely destroy the game balance. Glad to see you understand how vital magic marts are to the game balance of pathfinder, there are surprisingly some people who don't get that.And it's equally important that game balance requires a very strict interpretation of the rules. Using in-game social strictures as plot points is completely verboten, because it destroys game balance utterly. Awesome, glad we're on the same page.Exactly! I'm glad to see someone read the rulebook.Right, because any item with a GP value greater than a warship or basic palace is readily available, if the city is large enough.Pathfinder golarion is massively high magic game, so shopping stalls are part of that game
I too think staves aren't that useful. They would be better if they let you cast the spells not on your list
Can't tell if trolling at this point.
You think explaining facts is trolling? Magic items are seriously that baked into the system that not providing them at the WBL can and will seriously damage the game balance exponentially as you increase in level. That's not my opinion, that is a feature of the system since at least 3.5. Magic item availability is extremely important to Pathfinder balance, especially as you get highered level. You might be able to hack being behind WBL levels 1-5, maybe even 5-10. But when your missing out on hundreds of thousands of GP of items? The system breaks down.
You think explaining facts is trolling? Magic items are seriously that baked into the system that not providing them at the WBL can and will seriously damage the game balance exponentially as you increase in level. That's not my opinion, that is a feature of the system since at least 3.5. Magic item availability is extremely important to Pathfinder balance, especially as you get highered level. You might be able to hack being behind WBL levels 1-5, maybe even 5-10. But when your missing out on hundreds of thousands of GP of items? The system breaks down.
Nobody's said you'd be missing out on hundreds of thousands of GPs of magic items. Just not specific items, like staves. You'll just have it in other items, instead.
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If you ask me, there are two good staves. The Staff of the Master and the Staff of the Magi. If your GM uses Mythic, then you can also count Arazni's Staff of the Magi.
You think explaining facts is trolling? Magic items are seriously that baked into the system that not providing them at the WBL can and will seriously damage the game balance exponentially as you increase in level. That's not my opinion, that is a feature of the system since at least 3.5. Magic item availability is extremely important to Pathfinder balance, especially as you get highered level. You might be able to hack being behind WBL levels 1-5, maybe even 5-10. But when your missing out on hundreds of thousands of GP of items? The system breaks down.
It isn't any more necessary than it was back in AD&D, but that the players and the GM make it so.
Besides, the goalposts are slipping a bit. You said magic mart was necessary, then talked about magic items. You can have the latter without the former.
You think explaining facts is trolling? Magic items are seriously that baked into the system that not providing them at the WBL can and will seriously damage the game balance exponentially as you increase in level. That's not my opinion, that is a feature of the system since at least 3.5. Magic item availability is extremely important to Pathfinder balance, especially as you get highered level. You might be able to hack being behind WBL levels 1-5, maybe even 5-10. But when your missing out on hundreds of thousands of GP of items? The system breaks down.It isn't any more necessary than it was back in AD&D, but that the players and the GM make it so.
Besides, the goalposts are slipping a bit. You said magic mart was necessary, then talked about magic items. You can have the latter without the former.
Different items are needed for each build as are ready access to consumables. You can achieve this effect via GM sure but that point they are effectively using magic marts, they just aren't calling them that.
In one game we early on found a staff of fire. For the first few levels it didn't get used much, but we kept it just in case. Later, when my previous pc died and I rerolled as a witch I got it and there have been some situations where the additional firepower came in handy.
Especially as I didn't often memorize fire spells, favouring rimed cold spells when doing evocation.
Now, here are the benefits I see for Staffs:
1) A *charged* Staff lets you cast more spells / day.
2) A Staff can kind of give spontaneous casters more spells known.
3) A prepared caster can divide his spell allocation. As an example, a wizard can rely on his staff for Evocation magic and prepare non-Evocation magic himself for more versatility.
4) Sometimes, Staves come with nifty abilities, like the Staff of the Master, but most don't.
5) No ASF. For my Ninja/Witch, I wear armor and have ASF to deal with. A staff gets past that.
/cevah
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I honestly think every Staff should have some sort of special ability tied to it. Maybe something as simple as +1 damage per die for some of the elemental themed staves, or a maybe empowered spells from staff of healing or something.
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Exactly! I'm glad to see someone read the rulebook.Right, because any item with a GP value greater than a warship or basic palace is readily available, if the city is large enough.Pathfinder golarion is massively high magic game, so shopping stalls are part of that game
I too think staves aren't that useful. They would be better if they let you cast the spells not on your list
Yes, and it say:
Metropolis Base Limit 16,000 gp
I.e. you have a 75% chance of finding a specific magic item with a price of 16.000 gp or less in a metropolis.
Seeing how few are the metropolis in the inner sea area area and the Pc capabilities of travel, they probably will not be capable to go regularly to a metropolis before level 9.I don't see this massive access to big magic items in magic shops.
@Diego Rossi
Actually the 16000gp is the base for a metropolis, it can get up to 30400 gp iirc (which is still less of what it was for 3.5).
@OP
Yes staves are quite good but most of the printed ones are too expensive (and quite few of them are priced incorrectly) for what you get.
In your low downtime game they are even worse.
The Rogue Talent Black Market Connections (BMC) gives you better access to purchasing stuff. Here is the breakdown of the table:
Regular .. Minor .. Medium .. Major
w/BMC .. Minor .. Medium .. Major
w/BMC Check .. Minor .. Medium .. Major
Hamlet .. 200 gp .. 2nd .. 2nd
.. 1d6 items .. — .. —
.. 2d4 items .. 1d4 items .. —
.. 3d4 items .. 1d6 items .. —
Village .. 500 gp .. 2nd .. 2nd
.. 2d4 items .. 1d4 items .. —
.. 3d4 items .. 1d6 items .. —
.. 3d4 items .. 2d4 items .. 1d4 items
Small town .. 1,000 gp .. 2nd .. 3rd
.. 3d4 items .. 1d6 items .. —
.. 3d4 items .. 2d4 items .. 1d4 items
.. 4d4 items .. 3d4 items .. 1d6 items
Small city .. 4,000 gp .. 4th .. 5th
.. 4d4 items .. 3d4 items .. 1d6 items
.. 4d4 items .. 3d4 items .. 2d4 items
.. Most .. 4d4 items .. 3d4 items
Large city .. 8,000 gp .. 5th .. 6th
.. 4d4 items .. 3d4 items .. 2d4 items
.. Most .. 4d4 items .. 3d4 items
.. All .. All .. 3d8 items
Metropolis .. 16,000 gp .. 6th .. 8th
.. Most .. 4d4 items .. 3d4 items
.. All .. All .. 3d8 items
.. All .. All .. All
Here is a breakdown by location (population):
Fort Benbem (60)
Village
Banukmaud (120)
Fort Holiday (97)
Small town
Alendruan Harbor1190 (1255)
Beachcomber (1140)
Blackblood Cay (915)
Bogsbridge (995)
Chalk Harbor (895)
Cho-Tzu (1230)
Colvaas Gibbet (425)
Downpour (420)
Dragonsthrall (1070)
Drowning Rock (525)
Falchion Point (975)
Ganagsau (215)
Genzei (1318)
Ghrinitshahara (1390)
Goatshead (470)
Haigui Wan (995)
Halabad (710)
Heslandaena (1110)
Kora (900)
Lilywhite (780)
Little Oppara (1365)
Maidenspool (875)
Mezdrubal (1010)
Myscurial (780)
Ngozu (695)
Oyster Cay (1110)
Parley Point (1225)
Pex (835)
Plumetown (1130)
Queen Bes (1115)
Raketooth (1275)
Rapier Bay (1340)
Robu (690)
Rumbutter (795)
Slipcove (1400)
Tyvas-Devas (690)
Vezhnu (585)
Vilelock (470)
Yelligo Wharf (245)
Zeibo (785)
Small city
Drenchport (9690)
Hell Harbor (9230)
Neruma (5230)
Ollo (7340)
Large city
Quent (12560)
Metropolis
Port Peril (43270)
So, by 8th level, you will have more money to spend half your wealth on a single item than you can spend anywhere. [Or 6th if you spend all your wealth.]
/cevah
I.e. you have a 75% chance of finding a specific magic item with a price of 16.000 gp or less in a metropolis.
Seeing how few are the metropolis in the inner sea area area and the Pc capabilities of travel, they probably will not be capable to go regularly to a metropolis before level 9.I don't see this massive access to big magic items in magic shops.
So what you're saying is that Anzyr's requirement for big-ticket items to be available for sale as just a part of maintaining game balance is not supported by the Inner Sea region?
I.e. you have a 75% chance of finding a specific magic item with a price of 16.000 gp or less in a metropolis.
Seeing how few are the metropolis in the inner sea area area and the Pc capabilities of travel, they probably will not be capable to go regularly to a metropolis before level 9.I don't see this massive access to big magic items in magic shops.
So what you're saying is that Anzyr's requirement for big-ticket items to be available for sale as just a part of maintaining game balance is not supported by the Inner Sea region?
As leo1925 clarified above, it goes up to a significant amount of GP (especially if you factor in the average of 9 major items a metropolis will have). Furthermore, at low levels you do not have 16,000 GP to spend on a single item and thus the lower values in small areas (A mere small city will cover you on the all important stat items for example) will suffice until you get to 9th level and gain access to Teleport/Plane Shift and thus metropolises, which should have everything you will need until the highest levels. Also, each metropolis has 3d4 Major Items, thus it should be no problem to Teleport/Plane shift until you find the one you need at the levels you will purchasing major items.
Also its not my requirement, its Pathfinder's requirement.