@Cevah
Yes i have forgotten about that rogue talent.
Question, is the number in the parenthesis the base value of the city you list before the parenthesis?
The number is the population.
Furthermore, at low levels you do not have 16,000 GP to spend on a single item and thus the lower values in small areas (A mere small city will cover you on the all important stat items for example) will suffice until you get to 9th level and gain access to Teleport/Plane Shift and thus metropolises, which should have everything you will need until the highest levels. Also, each metropolis has 3d4 Major Items, thus it should be no problem to Teleport/Plane shift until you find the one you need at the levels you will purchasing major items.
Also its not my requirement, its Pathfinder's requirement.
I'm not sure I agree with the handwave of using teleport just to visit every shop in the world.
The Inner Sea region has, what, 15-20 metropolises? Each of them has 7-8 major items on average. There are hundreds of major items, especially taking into account Ultimate Equipment.
Let's Fermi estimate some math here:** spoiler omitted **
So on average if you want a 50/50 shot at finding your item, you need to visit 46 distinct metropolis sized settlements. If you want a 95% chance of finding it you're looking at a trek of 200 metropolises, which almost certainly invloves extensive planar travel. If you can teleport 5 times a day you are looking at a quest of possibly two months of shopping.
Another way of putting it is that if you visit the 20 biggest cities in the world you...
Your math has one big mistake. You assume you can only get 3d4 items. The Rogue Talent Black Market Connections (BMC) gives you better access to purchasing magic items. With the talent only, you get access to 3d8 items per metropolis. With a DC 35 Diplomacy check, you only need ONE metropolis.
If the settlement is already a metropolis and she succeeds at the check, all magic items are for sale.
I gave a list of the Inner Sea ports, and there was only one metropolis ... Port Peril. I don't know if there is an inland metropolis or two in the Inner Sea area. A pair of teleports will suffice for there and back.
/cevah
Edit: had 3d4 not 3d8.
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You can make the monster act intentionally stupid I guess, but at that point you might as well just let your PCs win regardless. Because run with a grain of intelligence, a CR appropriate monster will consume far more then appropriate resources from an undergeared party.You can greatly reduce the players' WBL and reduce the monsters by 1 CR, or whatever works for the party in question. It's not hard to balance, if you're a GM with control over every aspect of the world, and doesn't significantly alter the gameplay. (Although it does hit some mundane classes pretty hard.)Yeah, not really. First, monsters are designed at specific CR with the expectation that the party will have access to level-appropriate equipment. That's one of the reasons that shadows are called out as so dangerous, because you're not expected to have equipment that will enable you to face incorporeal monsters that do attribute drain at low levels, so you can easily get a TPK.
Second, rebalancing monsters on the fly is very difficult. Perhaps you can do it, but if so, you're the only GM i've heard of who can. There's a reason that Paizo has developed all those guidelines and does all that playtesting. And your statement "1 CR or whatever works" does not give me confidence.
Appropriate level equipment is very different from exactly the equipment you wish.
A weapon with a +5 equivalent enhancement bonus is appropriate equipment for a level 13 barbarian. That don't mean that he will have a adamantine +1 furious, etc weapon tailored to the enemy he want to kill and that can be enhanced by a casting of greater magic weapon. It could be a "plain" +5 weapon or a +2 flaming burst keen weapon or whatever.
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At some point PC's should be able to have all the custom gear that they want and can afford. Sure, having appropriate wbl *can* and generally does help, but not always. I am a gm who still uses the random magic item tables so my PC's have chances to pull some truly epic or failworthy loot when they have the opportunity to roll on those tables. However, if they are 3rd level, have a single caster, and all the loot is in scroll and potion form this is a problem.
At 5th and 6th level, when the unarmed trip build character cannot reliably trip because they have no magical equipment that they can use, no brawling armor, no amulet of mighty fist, etc, the character will struggle.
When you're high ac tank built defender is still wearing non-magical armor because he cannot choose to buy the armor he wants (and worse if he needs defending or benevolent enchantments), and/or they still possess no amulet of armor, ring of protection, or any single ac enhancing item beyond their mundane armor and they are 5-9, they clearly cannot adequately fulfill their role.
Sure, these characters might have excess wtb, but what use is a powerful magical staff in a group of non casters, or with no one who can umd? Yes, they can sell it but now it is being sold for half value so that they can acquire more random gear which, let's also say nobody can benefit from.
There is a point where PC's need magic mart to visit in some capacity, whether it be GM's recognizing that the fighter needs a + x magic sword with a special ability, or that the offensive wizard needs a headband because every cr 1/2 monster is still making their saves from his evocations...
The above is a bit of an extreme example but a valid one as I have been in this boat before and it is really not very enjoyable. Hey look, I am filthy stinking rich and my money means absolutely nothing because at this level, I won't survive with generic gear or random gear and I don't have the option to purchase anything specific that I want with my wealth.
In short, there definitely needs to be a balance. It's fine that I can't get the headband of charisma for my Sorceror because at least I have that metamagic rod I wanted and the robe of eldritch heritage.
5 times at day? At the levels you need to shop for major magic items? At level 13, your looking at 9 times a day and that's for the poor Wizard. An Oracle (plane shift) or Sorcerer is at 12 at that point. At even higher levels your looking at 20+ teleports/plane shifts and their improved version to boot.
Or you could do what I'd do and just farm this duty out to an outsider who can disguise itself (or not if the towns are not evil a good aligned outsider like a hound archon should be fine) and Greater Teleport at Will (which is a surprisingly high number). 200 Metropolises in 1 Day. With 1 5th level spell. Magic. That was simple.
Edit @ Wrong John Silver: They are readily available if you are using your spells properly. See above. Out of 200 Metropolises I think you will find that major magic item you are looking for.
And the outside will bring with him the money needed to buy the items and its gear with a 50 lbs limit to his at will teleportation SLA. And know all the cities of the world.
Sure. In your world, not in Pathfinder.
BTW, to do that trick you need to call him with planar ally/planar binding and he will ask to be paid or you need to force him. A summoned creature can't teleport.
So if you call a hound archon to do your menial work he will ask to eb paid for each teleportation at least as much as a wizard casting greater teleport. Level 7 spell with a cl of 13?910 gp for each casting. 182.000 gp to do your 200 cities trip.Edit @ Ryric: Hound Archons are 6 HD and thus Lesser Planar Bindable. They have Greater Teleport at will which is error free with a helpful description provided by Knowledge (local). Furthermore, if we want to find a specific item at high levels Discern Locations becomes a reliable means of locating exactly what you are looking for.
Please, give me a description of Rome A.D. 0.
Then of Petra, same date.Go to the local library and consult The Travels of Marco Polo. He visited the major cities of...
Greater Teleport just requires a description. A simple Knowledge (Local) should be able to explain it if the outsider for some reason can't figure out with their own knowledge (loacl). Also with Scrying, its really not that hard to get the seen once qualifier for Teleport. Also ending off target in a similar location (ie. another metropolis) is not actually much a drawback here. And out of your example the only real example of a place not to cast teleport is the Worldwound, which is kind of obvious.
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I am somewhat amused at the assertion that a DC10 Knowledge (local) check gives you the name and description of every metropolis in the world. I presume the posters here are educated, probably above average intelligence people. I highly doubt most of us could name from memory, say, every city of over 100,000 people worldwide in the real world, along with enough detail to enable a teleport. I know I could not.
Also scrying is a poor choice since you can't target a location, you have to target a creature. A specific creature. So you'd need to know of someone who lives in each city you want to scry on, and then hope they fail a Will save against your spell. Then you could teleport to wherever they were in the city, I suppose.
Because yeah, [city name] is not nearly specific enough a destination. That's like me telling the postal service that my aunt lives in Chicago, no street address given.
I am somewhat amused at the assertion that a DC10 Knowledge (local) check gives you the name and description of every metropolis in the world. I presume the posters here are educated, probably above average intelligence people. I highly doubt most of us could name from memory, say, every city of over 100,000 people worldwide in the real world, along with enough detail to enable a teleport. I know I could not.
Also scrying is a poor choice since you can't target a location, you have to target a creature. A specific creature. So you'd need to know of someone who lives in each city you want to scry on, and then hope they fail a Will save against your spell. Then you could teleport to wherever they were in the city, I suppose.
Because yeah, [city name] is not nearly specific enough a destination. That's like me telling the postal service that my aunt lives in Chicago, no street address given.
This is also a world where such cities are commonplace... 100,000 people make a small town in the modern US. There's no need to name all of them to shop to your heart's content here.
In Golarion, metropolises are the capitals of major countries. I'd be surprised if anyone here couldn't name the capitals of half the countries in Western Europe ..
And Paris, the capital of France, is a description. Greater teleport works.
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This is also a world where such cities are commonplace... 100,000 people make a small town in the modern US. There's no need to name all of them to shop to your heart's content here.
In Golarion, metropolises are the capitals of major countries. I'd be surprised if anyone here couldn't name the capitals of half the countries in Western Europe ..
And Paris, the capital of France, is a description. Greater teleport works.
Yeah I'm still not sure most people could name 200 such cities. The claim seemed to be that a DC10 Knowledge (local) check let you know the names and descriptions of over 200 metropolises scattered across the multiverse. Note that DC10 checks can be made untrained so that claim amounts to every 10 Int commoner knowing every huge city on several worlds/planes.
Paris, even medieval Paris, is miles across. That's not a specific destination. A specific destination is something like "outside the front door of Jacques the baker's shop on 4th street in Paris, the capital of France."
If the party is teleporting to a place they've been before I presume they know where they want to go to this level of detail, but if they are going someplace new they need to get a specific (down to a few feet) destination to go to.
By the way, I'm not actually against magic shopping as put forth in the book. It's just really difficult to shop over the 16000-30000gp metropolis limit, and I don't think that difficulty is a bad thing. It certainly doesn't cause the game to fall apart if the PCs can only shop for +4 stat boosters and +3 weapons, etc.
I am somewhat amused at the assertion that a DC10 Knowledge (local) check gives you the name and description of every metropolis in the world. I presume the posters here are educated, probably above average intelligence people. I highly doubt most of us could name from memory, say, every city of over 100,000 people worldwide in the real world, along with enough detail to enable a teleport. I know I could not.
Access to an "extensive library" lets you waive the restriction for only making DC 10 untrained knowledge checks. In this case, the "extensive library" would be an atlas.
Furthermore, you really can't compare Pathfinder metropolises to modern real-world cities. A better comparison is to list the capital of every country in the world, or every city with more than ~three million residents. Most people can't name all of them, but I would expect them to come up with... Oh, 20-30 or so. So right off the bat you have a decent selection. If that's not enough give them graph paper, a pencil, a 3rd grader's geography book, and 1D4 hours. You'll probably have a decent list.
Because yeah, [city name] is not nearly specific enough a destination. That's like me telling the postal service that my aunt lives in Chicago, no street address given.
Clearly your local postal service should not rely on the inferior Teleportation spell.
I'd also point out that it's more like you're telling the postal service to deliver a parcel "to Chicago". While the post office might not want to deliver that parcel since they want the exact destination, that's a problem with the organization's mantra - they certainly have the power and knowledge to get your delivery "to Chicago". In contrast to the post office, the teleporting wizard doesn't really care where in Chicago he arrives.
Finally, I would expect wizard guilds and large organisations like the Pathfinder Society to have a "blue book"-equivalent for teleportation spells. It would contain the name and rough geographical location of most well-known metropolses as well as a detailed sketch and thorough description of a specific, unchanging landmark. For instance the park promenade leading up to the Eiffel Tower, the bay view of the Golden Bridge, and so on.
On a vaguely related note, is Absalom's settlement stat block published anywhere? I did a cursory search through the Inner Sea World Guide and paizo's website but the only thing I found was a 3.5 supplement.
As for using the Outsider:
He's Lawful Good, and you specifically ask for an archon who's okay with mercantile activity.
Greater Teleport at will means that if you pull out an atlas, show him the planet, he can get pretty much anywhere he wants to at will. If he can't get some place specific, he can Teleport line of sight until he finds what he's looking for.
Furthermore, he can speak with all the natives easily.
What he'd do is make contact with good aligned churches in the area, and tell them what he's looking for. The churches would serve as information gatherers and go-betweens, and could facilitate any transaction. He could 'pay' for this by carrying messages from one location to the next, facilitating minor trade between them, and building bonds across distances by servants of Good.
I can actually see this 'postal service' as one of the greatest services that the celestials could provide to mortals. Communication and bonds across distances are great, Good things.
==Aelryinth
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Lawful Good and okay with mercantile activity doesn't mean "willing to visit 200 cities and search each one thoroughly for free just so you can get a minor stat boost." Remember that this putative caster already has +4 stat items, which are commonly available in any metropolis, so he's looking for a +2 upgrade. The archon does have better things to do with his time.
This thread has wandered far afield. I'll let this go for now, if we want to keep discussing "mega-shopping" we can start a new thread.
If one of my arcane types stumbles across a staff, it's a nice boon. I've never had a character actively look for one. If I ever play a high level wizard, I might have her craft a custom one---but she'd have to be pretty high level.
Lawful Good and okay with mercantile activity doesn't mean "willing to visit 200 cities and search each one thoroughly for free just so you can get a minor stat boost."
Actually, it does. That's what "perform one task" means. Furthermore, "a long-term task, one requiring up to 1 day per caster level, requires a payment of 1,000 gp per HD. A nonhazardous task requires only half the indicated payment."
As has been pointed out, for a creature with greater teleport at will, "teleport each of these 200 cities on this list and purchase the first available thingummy" is a task well within that scope, and nonhazardous to boot. That's not an unreasonable task for a hound archon and costs you only 3000 gp.
"and as an addendum to our contract, you are heartily encouraged to use the funds of our deal and engage in trade leverage them to more funds to support the cause of Good whilst you are traveling."
You could very easily end up with a very long-term ally using the 'Binding' as an excuse to stick around and set up a money-making machine for the Good Guys.
==Aelryinth
Different items are needed for each build as are ready access to consumables. You can achieve this effect via GM sure but that point they are effectively using magic marts, they just aren't calling them that.You think explaining facts is trolling? Magic items are seriously that baked into the system that not providing them at the WBL can and will seriously damage the game balance exponentially as you increase in level. That's not my opinion, that is a feature of the system since at least 3.5. Magic item availability is extremely important to Pathfinder balance, especially as you get highered level. You might be able to hack being behind WBL levels 1-5, maybe even 5-10. But when your missing out on hundreds of thousands of GP of items? The system breaks down.It isn't any more necessary than it was back in AD&D, but that the players and the GM make it so.
Besides, the goalposts are slipping a bit. You said magic mart was necessary, then talked about magic items. You can have the latter without the former.
You're assuming that the only alternative to magic mart is for the GM to give the player all the items they would have bought. That's not what I'm suggesting at all. The game works just fine without doing that unless the players are obsessed with making their PCs match up with their theorycrafted builds line for line. Many, many tables simply don't play that way, and they have a good time regardless. Try it some time.
It's easy for a GM to adjust encounters in the game to account for a party that has limited magic items. The game might "fall apart" if the GM is constantly throwing encounters well above the APL of the party at a group with limited magic items (though in my RotRL game my party is behind and they are surviving some pretty tough fights). But suggesting they are essential to the game is highly over-exaggerated. The game is hardly that carefully balanced. If anything I find the opposite, as a GM I'm constantly having to scale things up to challenge my PCs not go the other way.
I.e. you have a 75% chance of finding a specific magic item with a price of 16.000 gp or less in a metropolis.
Seeing how few are the metropolis in the inner sea area area and the Pc capabilities of travel, they probably will not be capable to go regularly to a metropolis before level 9.I don't see this massive access to big magic items in magic shops.
So what you're saying is that Anzyr's requirement for big-ticket items to be available for sale as just a part of maintaining game balance is not supported by the Inner Sea region?
As leo1925 clarified above, it goes up to a significant amount of GP (especially if you factor in the average of 9 major items a metropolis will have). Furthermore, at low levels you do not have 16,000 GP to spend on a single item and thus the lower values in small areas (A mere small city will cover you on the all important stat items for example) will suffice until you get to 9th level and gain access to Teleport/Plane Shift and thus metropolises, which should have everything you will need until the highest levels. Also, each metropolis has 3d4 Major Items, thus it should be no problem to Teleport/Plane shift until you find the one you need at the levels you will purchasing major items.
Also its not my requirement, its Pathfinder's requirement.
You're assuming that the only alternative to magic mart is for the GM to give the player all the items they would have bought. That's not what I'm suggesting at all. The game works just fine without doing that unless the players are obsessed with making their PCs match up with their theorycrafted builds line for line. Many, many tables simply don't play that way, and they have a good time regardless. Try it some time.Different items are needed for each build as are ready access to consumables. You can achieve this effect via GM sure but that point they are effectively using magic marts, they just aren't calling them that.You think explaining facts is trolling? Magic items are seriously that baked into the system that not providing them at the WBL can and will seriously damage the game balance exponentially as you increase in level. That's not my opinion, that is a feature of the system since at least 3.5. Magic item availability is extremely important to Pathfinder balance, especially as you get highered level. You might be able to hack being behind WBL levels 1-5, maybe even 5-10. But when your missing out on hundreds of thousands of GP of items? The system breaks down.It isn't any more necessary than it was back in AD&D, but that the players and the GM make it so.
Besides, the goalposts are slipping a bit. You said magic mart was necessary, then talked about magic items. You can have the latter without the former.
Many many tables also fudge dice rolls or have GMs that actively enable the PCs to win (or lose) regardless of the rules in the book. The mere fact that some people enjoy that has absolutely no meaning when we are talking about the game rules. It's like how most people play Monopoly without following the rules and then complain the game drags. To a person who is talking about the rules, your complaint is inane, because if you are using the rules that is simply not the case.
@ P.H. Dungeon: It's really not and it gets harder and harder as you get higher level. Outside of outright fudging to allow the players to survive or running 20+ Int monsters with less intelligence then even the regular joe human has, at high levels undergeared PCs will struggle to fight even monsters that have a lower CR then they do. This is because higher CR monsters are built around assumptions like the the PCs are buying items to raise their attack bonus, their ac, their saves, etc. The monster scale to those expectations according to their CR and thus an undergeared party will run into serious issues.
The thing about WBL is Paizo is lying.
It's not the wealth a character needs, it's the specific items.
You are assumed to be spending a large fraction of your wealth on stat boosters and another large fraction on AC boosting and for most classes another large fraction on weapons. This isn't made explicit, but the assumptions are implicit in the game's math and bestiary. There isn't enough wealth left for other big ticket items like staves and anything in slot competition is right out.
Not all expenditures are equally responsible. Buying a staff is like taking a vacation in Europe (as an American, Australian, or New Zealander) The big six (sans weapons for some classes) are like buying food, paying your mortgage, and paying your utility bills. Spending on luxuries before taking care of the boring numerical scaling is a Timmy option.
Agreed with a minor caveat that in place of "Weapon of X" casters will buy a bunch of useful items to help fulfill their role. Also another minor exception in the form of build specific stuff. But ya, the big six are absolutely critical.
Agreed, certain classes, namely Superstitious Barbarians, Paladins, Monks or Steel Soul Dwarves (God forbid a Steel Soul, Paladin/SS Barbarian!) tend to not need Save boosters as much. They can afford to get other shoulder slot items, though there isn't much competition there, the only two things that come to mind is the Cloak of Elvenkind or the Juggernaut Pauldrons, everything else just seems kind of ~meh.
But for the most part, the Big Six are essential to survival at mid-high levels. If you don't have them, you're pretty much screwed.
As a test for those who don't think this is true, try building some ~14th level characters using NPC wealth. Hell, build an entire party and see how well they stack up against even Paizo's APs in that range.
Many many tables also fudge dice rolls or have GMs that actively enable the PCs to win (or lose) regardless of the rules in the book. The mere fact that some people enjoy that has absolutely no meaning when we are talking about the game rules. It's like how most people play Monopoly without following the rules and then complain the game drags. To a person who is talking about the rules, your complaint is inane, because if you are using the rules that is simply not the...You're assuming that the only alternative to magic mart is for the GM to give the player all the items they would have bought. That's not what I'm suggesting at all. The game works just fine without doing that unless the players are obsessed with making their PCs match up with their theorycrafted builds line for line. Many, many tables simply don't play that way, and they have a good time regardless. Try it some time.Different items are needed for each build as are ready access to consumables. You can achieve this effect via GM sure but that point they are effectively using magic marts, they just aren't calling them that.You think explaining facts is trolling? Magic items are seriously that baked into the system that not providing them at the WBL can and will seriously damage the game balance exponentially as you increase in level. That's not my opinion, that is a feature of the system since at least 3.5. Magic item availability is extremely important to Pathfinder balance, especially as you get highered level. You might be able to hack being behind WBL levels 1-5, maybe even 5-10. But when your missing out on hundreds of thousands of GP of items? The system breaks down.It isn't any more necessary than it was back in AD&D, but that the players and the GM make it so.
Besides, the goalposts are slipping a bit. You said magic mart was necessary, then talked about magic items. You can have the latter without the former.
Your argument has no substance. People play the game to have fun. People play your way and have fun. People play other ways--still by the rules--and have fun. The rules do not require allowing players to purchase any item they see fit, and you have not cited such a rule to bolster your claim. To call the non-magic-mart style--the style that was the default for the entirety of the game's history until 3e--"inane" is your prerogative, though I find it in poor taste. But to equate it to "fudging die rolls" is highly insulting and leads me to believe that you are not discussing in good faith and instead are only interested in increasing the volume and vitriol of the discussion. I'm not interested in such a discussion.
...Many many tables also fudge dice rolls or have GMs that actively enable the PCs to win (or lose) regardless of the rules in the book. The mere fact that some people enjoy that has absolutely no meaning when we are talking about the game rules. It's like how most people play Monopoly without following the rules and then complain the game drags. To a person who is talking about the rules, your complaint is inane, because if you are using the rulesYou're assuming that the only alternative to magic mart is for the GM to give the player all the items they would have bought. That's not what I'm suggesting at all. The game works just fine without doing that unless the players are obsessed with making their PCs match up with their theorycrafted builds line for line. Many, many tables simply don't play that way, and they have a good time regardless. Try it some time.Different items are needed for each build as are ready access to consumables. You can achieve this effect via GM sure but that point they are effectively using magic marts, they just aren't calling them that.You think explaining facts is trolling? Magic items are seriously that baked into the system that not providing them at the WBL can and will seriously damage the game balance exponentially as you increase in level. That's not my opinion, that is a feature of the system since at least 3.5. Magic item availability is extremely important to Pathfinder balance, especially as you get highered level. You might be able to hack being behind WBL levels 1-5, maybe even 5-10. But when your missing out on hundreds of thousands of GP of items? The system breaks down.It isn't any more necessary than it was back in AD&D, but that the players and the GM make it so.
Besides, the goalposts are slipping a bit. You said magic mart was necessary, then talked about magic items. You can have the latter without the former.
You can have fun by fudging the rules. And if you are undergeared and not having issues with CR appropriate encounters (which mathematically speaking you should), the only two reasons that could be the case is 1. the GM is fudging in your favor, or 2. the monster is being played unintelligibly. I'm open to other reasons, but I personally can't think of any. The rules (and math of the game) *do* require players to have access to WBL. If you aren't playing by the rules and still having fun, that's fine, but to use my Monopoly analogy; you are not properly auctioning off unpurchased properties and you are probably placing taxed money on free parking and then disagreeing with me when I tell you Monopoly is not a particularly long game. I'm correct (of course it's my analogy after all), a game of Monopoly played properly does not go on especially long. Similarly, a game of a Pathfinder absolutely requires WBL. If it doesn't you are clearly doing something akin to placing money on free parking or not auctioning off properties that are not purchased by the player who lands on them (which in this analogy is fudging dice rolls or playing monsters unintelligibly).
Also, my argument thus far is the only one with substance, what with it being involved with the math of game, which is easy to prove by simply looking at high CR monsters stats. Your argument amounts to "No, because I don't see a problem". Though please feel free to present another more rational argument.
And if you are undergeared and not having issues with CR appropriate encounters (which mathematically speaking you should), the only two reasons that could be the case is 1. the GM is fudging in your favor, or 2. the monster is being played unintelligibly. I'm open to other reasons, but I personally can't think of any.
Here are some possibilities:
(1) The GM is giving the PCs lower-CR foes to allow for the group being undergeared. (Or maybe they are fighting even more undergeared NPCs in some kind of urban campaign.)(2) The PCs are more powerful than the traditional assumptions - on 25 point buy, or there are more than four of them, with traits and hero points and so on.
(3) The PCs are competent and optimized and taking advantage of all the power creep from later books and annihilating whole encounters effortlessly with Dazing Fireballs, pouncing superstitious barbarians, etc.
Staves are good for specialist wizards to bypass the school restrictions. So are wands, but wands don't do higher level spells and let you cast at your own CL and DC.
Staves, like wands, can be used by anyone willing to invest points in UMD.
And if you are undergeared and not having issues with CR appropriate encounters (which mathematically speaking you should), the only two reasons that could be the case is 1. the GM is fudging in your favor, or 2. the monster is being played unintelligibly. I'm open to other reasons, but I personally can't think of any.Here are some possibilities:
(1) The GM is giving the PCs lower-CR foes to allow for the group being undergeared. (Or maybe they are fighting even more undergeared NPCs in some kind of urban campaign.)
(2) The PCs are more powerful than the traditional assumptions - on 25 point buy, or there are more than four of them, with traits and hero points and so on.
(3) The PCs are competent and optimized and taking advantage of all the power creep from later books and annihilating whole encounters effortlessly with Dazing Fireballs, pouncing superstitious barbarians, etc.
(1) - Lower CR foes might help, but that sort of proves my point. Especially since even they will eventually become to great a threat if the PCs aren't making proper WBL progress.
(2) Completely wrong. WBL is a much more significant portion of your characters power then all three of those factors combined (save more then 4 PCs, which is a separate issue since that just means more enemies.)
(3) Once again, these things are will not help if you are low on WBL. A Pouncing Barbarian with a +1 weapon just isn't scary at all. Dazing Fireballs are slightly better in this regard, but that's a function of casters being less magic item dependent then martials. Even so, casters who aren't getting WBL will have a tougher time of it (though their casters and in the end having Full Casting is an even stronger ability then WBL.)
Lower CR foes might help, but that sort of proves my point.
Does it? Your point seemed to be that it was impossible to play a low-magic-gear game without GM fudging. Creating fair challenges for the campaign you're in isn't fudging. (Well, it is in a way, but only in the sense that 'PCs only ever get attacked by CR-appropriate enemies' is fudging.)
A Pouncing Barbarian with a +1 weapon just isn't scary at all.
Because he's doing 30 points of damage per hit instead of 32? If he has an ally who can cast Greater Magic Weapon, the difference practically vanishes.
An optimized character with low wealth is still more dangerous than a poorly optimized rogue with full wealth.
It's not the damage that matters, not really. It's the attack bonus or DR.
For example, that Barbarian with a even a +1 furious weapon is bypassing Cold Iron/Silver DR, where as that +1 weapon is subject to DR. He's also got an additional +2 to hit which amounts to roughly +4 damage on average, so it's more like he's doing +36 damage instead and bypassing Cold Iron/Silver DR.
Also, to be fair, Anzyr said CR appropriate encounters. Just because the CR technically matches up, doesn't mean it's an appropriate encounter.
For example, 16 Gobilins are technically a CR 7 encounter (16 creatures = CR +8). Let's say we have two CR 7 Goblin hordes (for a total of 32 Goblins), there is no chart for this, but I'll factor them in as each horde being a complete creature so the chart would say 2 creatures = CR +2; so 2 CR 7 Goblin Hordes is a CR 9 threat.
Technically, throwing 32 goblins at the party would be a CR 9 threat, despite that, only a single spell is needed to kill them all, and that spell comes in a variety of flavors. One could use Cloudkill, or Fireball, or Wall of Fire, Black Tentacles etc.
Let's say it's an APL of 7, these 2 Goblin Hordes are an APL +2 encounter, or a 'Hard' encounter. Do you really expect a party of four, 7th level characters to have trouble with a 32 Goblins? Unless these Goblins are fighting from their dens full of traps and misery, then it should be a bloodbath of raining goblin parts.
Technically it's a correct CR encounter; it was not, however, a CR appropriate encounter.
It's not the damage that matters, not really. It's the attack bonus or DR.
For example, that Barbarian with a even a +1 furious weapon is bypassing Cold Iron/Silver DR, where as that +1 weapon is subject to DR.
So he might have to actually use a cold iron or silver weapon to do full damage to an opponent? That doesn't sound game-breaking.
Also note how a +1 Furious weapon (8000gp) is roughly as powerful as the +3 weapon (18000gp) he'd have had to use when the CR system was developed. You'd have to knock 10,000gp off his WBL just to bring him back in line with expectations.
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See, you only look at one aspect of it to try and support your argument.
You're not looking at the combined aspect of the Stat boosters, save boosters, AC boosters, attack/damage boosters etc.
A fully geared PC of around ~10th level probably has at least a +4 belt and +3 weapon by that point, meaning he's a full +5 points higher in attack and +6 higher in damage alone and overcoming DR. In addition his AC will be higher, and his saves will be higher.
Monster Statistics by CR shows that at 10th level, a Monster has an expected AC of 24 and an expected high attack of +18. So on a 2 he hits AC 20 and on a 10 he hits AC 28. Your AC, as a frontline martial, needs to be in the 24 (on the low end) to 28 (or higher) to function at this point.
Now, yes, you can achieve such an AC, non-magically, but not without neutering your offense (shield with shield focus, combat expertise etc). If you want to maintain a good offense with a good defense, you need rings/amulets/magical armor to do so.
At that point, a 10th level PC has a BAB of 10 and an attack stat of 22ish before anything else. So he has an attack bonus of ~+16 so he has to roll an 8 or better to hid (not exactly good odds, especially for an iterative). God forbid he power attack (-3 to hit). In order to maintain his offense, he needs to rely on his special ability (rage, smite, favored enemy etc) at all times (smite and favored enemy don't always function), or he needs magical help (stat booster, attack booster) in order be effective on offense.
So at this point, he needs magical gear for his defense, and magical gear for his offense.
High DC at this point is 19, and your good save at level 10 is +7, you need at least a +2 from a stat to make 50/50 odds of success. That's a 50% chance on your best save; better hope they don't target your worst save, because you're screwed. Unless you buy a cloak of resistance and some stat boosters.
There are, of course, exceptions to aspects of this. A Superstitous Barbarian is going to have higher saves vs magical effects, and Paladins and Monks are going to have generally good saves all around; but not everyone is playing one of those three characters and it still doesn't account for defense, offense, or anything else he needs.
And that is just against a CR = Level opponent. Lets say it was a BBEG, so he's probably Level +3, meaning he's got AC of ~28, an attack of +22, and a DC of 21. Without magic, you're f~&&ed when it comes to fighting him. Of course, the party caster might just blow a large number of spells buffing you, but those aren't always available. What if they run out? What if there is no time? What if he dispels them?
This all only gets worse as your level increases.
You need the Big Six available to you at appropriate WBL or this game becomes nearly impossible to play.
Sure your GM could be throwing Level -3 opponents at you, but that only holds up so far. Say you're 18th level and the GM throws you up against a CR 15 creature. He's got AC 30, attack of +24 and a DC of 23. You've got an attack of ~25 (maybe), an AC of 24 with full-plate and a heavy shield, and your best saving throw is ~+13? Yeah, against that guy 3 CR below you, you're barely surviving. You're screwed against that level 18 BBEG monster.
Too bad you didn't have the appropriate gear huh?
Addressing the thread topic only: I think it's fairly evident that staffs can be useful, a better question might be if they justify the price tag attached. I generally find that by the time I can afford a staff, I am at a level where I no longer consider the spells the staff offers attractive.
Consider the Staff of Minor Arcana. It has an 8 000 GP price tag and allows you to cast Shield (1 charge) and Magic Missile (2 charges). I'd say it becomes available to PCs at around level 8, where it takes up 25% of their expected WBL. By level 8, I should have enough level 1 spell slots to prepare my own Shield and Magic Missile spells. They're typically the spells I cast when I have nothing better to do. For roughly the same WBL investment as the staff I can buy eight first level pearls of power (offering significantly more flexibility in spells used, and unlike a staff they don't need to be recharged), three lesser +1 metamagic rods, a lesser +2 rod such as Empower Spell, or a myriad of other items. In this case the cost does not balance out the benefit.
I also find the description somewhat misleading since both the staff of minor arcana and the (similarly priced) staff of blessed relief mentions that they are a common gift from the teacher/master/head priest to to young spellcasters when they graduate as wizards or become clergy. Indeed, for a 1st level character either one of these staffs would be a great help! However, if you were to give this staff to low-level spellcasters it will wildly skew their expected WBL! The earliest the WBL could accomodate for a staff of minor arcana is level 5, and even then it takes up about 80% of the WBL.
Next up is the Staff of Fire. It's priced at 18 950 GP and offers Burning Hands (1 charge), Fireball (2 charges) and Wall of Fire (3 charges).
This is actually priced a lot more competitively - Wall of Fire is a handy spell and I can't easily replicate the staff with pearls of power since a single 4th level PoP costs 16k.
While I wouldn't search it out, I think the Staff of Fire is a decent option, especially for a blaster-happy caster with a fixed spell list such as a sorcerer.
Finally we look at the Staff of Stealth: a hefty 36 800 gp price means it comes online at roughly level 14. It offers Disguise Self, Invisibility, Nondetection and Greater Invisibility.
Disguise Self is very underwhelming, I'd prefer to pick up a hat for a continuous effect at a fraction of the price. Invisibility is handy, but like the hat there are much better items available for less than the cost of this staff. So the real advantages are Nondetection and Greater Invisibility.
At level 14 a sorcerer has at least four 3rd and 4th level spells known, 6 if he's using the FCB - I'd say he has room to fit Greater Invisibility. The staff frees up that spell slot, but still.
Nondetection is a niche spell, but one you really want your full caster level on. I'm not clear on whether or not Nondetection would defeat See Invisibility - if it does it's a very handy spell. If it doesn't, then I find it somewhat underwhelming. One thing I do like about casting Nondetection through the staff is that you do not pay the 50 gp material component cost. A 14th level caster could spend two 4th level spell slots per day to keep Nondetection up indefinitely. Admittedly 50 gp in material components isn't that bad, but if your campaign takes a long view on things it will add up - keeping nondetection up for a year would cost approximately 36 000 GP.
So... In general I find that staffs are handy for emergencies and offer good utility for fixed list spellcasters, but they also tend to be bloated with spells you don't really want (Burning Hands, Disguise Self), overpriced (8k for a staff with level 1 spells) and come online far too late compared to the advantage they offer.
And what of the fact that their opponents ALSO don't have that gear...?
Except specifically for humanoids, their opponents typically don't need that gear. A hezrou demon, for example, is CR 11 without any additional gear. His AC is 25 (in-line with guidelines), his best attack is +17 (again, in-line with guidelines), and his special attack has a Fortitude DC of 24, which is slightly above guidelines.
A hamatula devil is also CR 11 and has similar attributes -- slightly higher AC and attack, lower DCs on the save for special attacks.
A juvenile green dragon is CR 9, with AC 23, best attack +16, and DC 19 (in-line with guidelines) on the breath weapon.
None of these monsters are gear-dependent.
And what of the fact that their opponents ALSO don't have that gear...?
Monsters don't usually have gear at all, so I'm not sure what the point of your statement is. If your class-level enemies have no magical gear their expected CR drops, so the system compensates for this. If you don't have expected WBL, your CR drops too, so the game has a mathematical way of dealing with low WBL built in. Unfortunately it breaks down at high level where certain abilities and resistances are expected (such as fly) unless you have spellcasters, but you could probably manage OK fighting CR -2 enemies for the most part, especially with a competent caster or two.
As for the ORIGINAL PREMISE of the thread:
I seem to remember a while ago an absolutely fantastic guide was posted that showed the real power of staves came from crafting your own using the relevant rules, rather than buying the (generally) horrible standard staves. Most of the book staves were accidentally overpriced due to a mathematical error and often contain poor spells... but with some good number crunching you can pick up your own staves with useful, powerful spells at very competitive prices.
I'm sorry I can't find the original link. I must admit I didn't search too hard, but hopefully others can remember it.
I seem to remember a while ago an absolutely fantastic guide was posted that showed the real power of staves came from crafting your own using the relevant rules, rather than buying the (generally) horrible standard staves. Most of the book staves were accidentally overpriced due to a mathematical error and often contain poor spells... but with some good number crunching you can pick up your own staves with useful, powerful spells at very competitive prices.
I'm sorry I can't find the original link. I must admit I didn't search too hard, but hopefully others can remember it.
I'd be interested in seeing this guide, if that encourages you to re-search your memory.
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Finally we look at the Staff of Stealth: a hefty 36 800 gp price means it comes online at roughly level 14. It offers Disguise Self, Invisibility, Nondetection and Greater Invisibility.
Disguise Self is very underwhelming, I'd prefer to pick up a hat for a continuous effect at a fraction of the price. Invisibility is handy, but like the hat there are much better items available for less than the cost of this staff. So the real advantages are Nondetection and Greater Invisibility.
At level 14 a sorcerer has at least four 3rd and 4th level spells known, 6 if he's using the FCB - I'd say he has room to fit Greater Invisibility. The staff frees up that spell slot, but still.
Nondetection is a niche spell, but one you really want your full caster level on. I'm not clear on whether or not Nondetection would defeat See Invisibility - if it does it's a very handy spell. If it doesn't, then I find it somewhat underwhelming. One thing I do like about casting Nondetection through the staff is that you do not pay the 50 gp material component cost. A 14th level caster could spend two 4th level spell slots per day to keep Nondetection up indefinitely. Admittedly 50 gp in material components isn't that bad, but if your campaign takes a long view on things it will add up - keeping nondetection up for a year would cost approximately 36 000 GP.
When I played my arcane trickster I loved me some staff of stealth. It was a very low magic/low money campaign - at no point in level 1-22 did any of us ever break 5000gp in cash, and all magic items were found as treasure. So the material component cost of nondetection was very relevant and getting around it very nice. We did play nondetection as working against the entire school of divination, which upped its utility.
Who says that in a lower magic campaign that they would be facing "monsters" instead of human or humanoid npcs with class levels?
Absolutely nothing. There's, strictly speaking, no reason to assume they will ever face anything except level 1 commoners in wheelchairs. But the game is designed around assumptions that include the idea that PCs can and will face almost anything.
It basically depends on campaign pacing. If your group is an "adventure every day" group, with minimal down-time, then staffs are going to be less useful; of course, with minimal down-time, item crafting and other activities will also be less useful. If your group has more down-time or travel with limited encounters (allowing more opportunities to recharge a staff between uses), then staffs are going to be more useful.
I like staves a lot for gameplay reasons and simply flavor. And staves that contain spells with material components are very expensive, but if you use them often (during downtime) it can pay off quickly.
However if you think they are underwhelming, I tend to give staves little extra abilities that are useful, but not overly powerful to increase their appeal.
For example an old wizard with back problems had a staff that always stood upright even when he did not hold it and the top could unfold so he could place his spellbook on it for easy study on the fly. The magic of the staff also prevented wind from turning pages (it was a staff with air/wind spells after all).
Other examples:
Staves with fire magic have of course a built in "cigarette lighter" and can also extinguish (suck up) small fires (such as a team mate caught on fire by a non-magical effect).
Staves with water magic float on the surface of water (and align north like a compass needle).
If you look at the spell you can often think of neat little abilities that can provide useful beyond the standard application.
Staves should be a fun and fundamental part of the early game, but the published examples overlook this obvious nook in which CL 8 is a huge benefit.
For example, consider a staff that has any one first-level spell and the detect magic cantrip. The first-level spell costs five charges to use. The detect magic cantrip costs ten charges to use.
This costs (400 * 1 * 8 / 5) + (300 * 0.5 * 8 / 10) = 760 gp. Easily part of an early game treasure hoard.
To make its value and even thousand gold, let's also give it twenty non-rechargable uses of a once-per-day +6 to a Spellcraft roll (which costs 3,600 gp * 1.5 multiple different abilities / 5 daily use / 2 charged / 2.5 only twenty charges remaining = 216 gp).
It can probably be recharged by any caster in the party, since most casters know detect magic.
There are many first-level spells that a low-level party would love to be able to cast at CL 8 in an emergency, once every five days.
The daily bonus to spellcraft would eliminate the risk of a low-level wizard, magus, or witch wasting a scroll when trying to transfer the scroll's spell to spellbook or familiar.
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The other easy fix is to allow the wondrous item pricing modifiers to also apply to staves. Then a staff that has only 50 charges in its lifetime, and can be used only daily, costs only one-tenth as much.
In that case a staff with five CL 8 first-level spells (all requiring only 1 charge) with daily use and 50 charges in its lifetime only costs 1,200 gp.
A staff with one CL 8 second-level spell and three CL 8 first-level spells (all requiring only 1 charge) with daily use and 50 charges in its lifetime also costs only 1,200 gp.
A handful of CL8 spell options for daily emergencies? Totally worth it for a low-level party.
Who on earth would want to play a D&D campaign where you never fight monsters?
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Who on earth would want to play a D&D campaign where you never fight monsters?
Monster.
It old "Deep Space Nine" plot. You in lair. People many races many issues visit make trouble.
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I see you misspelled "Babylon 5".
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I see you misspelled "Babylon 5".
And The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes. Need we continue?
I'd be interested in seeing this guide, if that encourages you to re-search your memory.
I spent a good half an hour hunting through paizo threads and google, but sadly could not find anything :-(. I'll have a crack at what I remember but forgive me for any errors.....
The basic premise of it was that you should front-load a staff with powers you'll rarely need that take all 10 charges and THEN add the spells you actually want to cast regularly.
For example, you can create a staff that lets you cast shield/magic missile at one charge each for (8*1*400 + 8*1*300) 6600 gold....
OR you could create a staff that lets you cast, say, blood transcription for 10 charges, invisibility for 10 charges and shield/magic missile for 1 charge for (8*2*400/10 + 8*2*300/10 + 8*1*200*2) = 4320 gold. Much cheaper for the same spells plus more.
This is assuming the most conservative of item creation rulings and does comes with the disadvantage of requiring a higher spell slot to recharge (not really a huge issue as you recharge staves in downtime anyway). As the spell level increases, the difference in price widens making this even more cost effective with time.
This may not fly depending on your GM, but technically if all spell levels are equal, there's nothing RAW that I could find requiring the spells with fewer charges to be the 'costly' spells as long as spell level isn't higher (the item creation text mentions charges have no bearing on the costing hierachy) -- you could potentially build a staff of, say, vanish for 10 charges, true strike for 10 charges and magic missile/shield for 1 for (8*1*400/10 + 8*1*300/10 + 8*1*200*2) = 3760 gold. Up the charge cost to 2 for your useful spells (still 5 free slots effectively) and your staff only costs 2080 gold... very affordable.
It would be reasonable of a GM to houserule that, if spell levels are equal, that the 'costly' effect has to be the one with the fewer charges... so YMMV.
Minimal can be similarly scaled down. Regardless, those opponents don't have the immunities and the like he complains about when saying anything other than magic mart is the 'wrong' way to play.
It just doesn't work under the rules. Playing low magic Pathfinder is trying to put a square block into a round peg. I'm not going to say your wrong for trying it, but at a certain point it would be like trying to go everywhere on a unicycle. Sure it might "work", but I really recommend you walk down the flight of steps and take a plane to the other side of the country. If you don't like it there are many systems better suited to low magic.