So basically i've been having problems beating this character, actually i don't technically need to beat him in one turn, i just want to win...is just that i thought beating him in one turn was the only way of beating him, i did beat him once, before he started to boost his Initiative to crazy levels (without Traits)
i first beat him with a barbarian Pounce build, but then he reformatted his PC and now is like this, please help.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
human rogue(swashbuckler) lvl8 / wizard lvl 1 / oracle (Black-Blooded) Oracle lvl 1----- lvl 10
items: wand of darkness---------------4500
waand of silence---------------4500
wand of fog cloud--------------4500
fogcutting lenses--------------8000
launching crosbow +1-----------2000
spiked gauntlet +1 duelist----16000
bag, handy haversack-----------2000
cracked dusty rose prism-------500
alchemist lab------------------300
alchemist fire*15--------------100
acid flask*30------------------100
elemental flusk*20-------------125
tanglefoot bag*10--------------167
Wrist Sheath spring loaded-----5
Wrist Sheath spring loaded-----5
belt of incredible dextety+4---16000
liquid ice *10-----------------134
flask of water*30--------------1 (like really? water... this expensive...?)
fungal stun vial*5-------------125
total--------------------------58929
Ability scores
str------8-------(-2)[10-2(+2 pts)]
con------14------(+0)[10+5(+5 pts]
dex------26------(+8)[10+8(+17 pts)]+2 racial modifier+ 1 ability score 4th lvl + 1 ability score 8th lvl+4 belt of incredible dexterty
int------14------(+2)[10+5(+5 pts)]
wis------10------(+0)[10]
cha------10------(+0)[10]
total----------------25 pts
initiative
(two rolls- War Sight) +22 [+8(dex)+1(cracked dusty rose prism)+4(improved initiative)+4(spiked gauntlet +1 duelist)+1(foreswarned)+4(familiar Compsognathus)
feats
human feat-------exotic weapon proficiency, launching crossbow
1stlvl-----------point blank shot
3rdlvl-----------Improved initiative
5thlvl-----------rapid reload
7thlvl-----------rapid shot
9thlvl-----------crossbow mastery
rogue talents
2ndlvl-----------weapon training, launching crossbow
4thlvl-----------ninja trick, preassure points
6thlvl-----------combat trick, deadly aim
8thlvl-----------combat trick, Quick draw
favored class----scavenger
skill points
(8+3)*10
skill ranks ability mod misc total
accrobatics-------11--------+ 8------------3-------22
bluff-------------11---------0-------------3-------14
craf(alchemy)-----11---------+3------------3-------17
climb-------------11---------(-2)----------3-------12
escape Artist-----11--------+8-------------3-------22
perception--------11---------0-------------3-------14
use magic device--11---------0-------------3-------14
stealth-----------11---------+8------------3-------22
sense motive------11----------0------------3-------22
sleight of hand---11---------+8------------3-------22
------------------------------------------------------------------
His tactic is to win initiative and use Darkness or Fog cloud, which makes me unable to see him (because i haven't built anything that have darkvision and fog vision) and also being able to disable him. then he starts to throw those alchemical fires at me with his crossbow with sneak attack damage and i'm dead because i cannot see him.
Any help? or advise? what i want perhaps would be a high initiative PC to gain an upperhand before he starts.
The rules are simple, 10 lvl PC, with standard gold for level, only Paizo Books accepted, not 3pp or 3.5 stuff, core races, no traits.
1)Just use the same equip he does to see through darkness and fog.
2)Reread the rules for splash weapons and sneak attack. I'm not sure you can deal sneak damage with splash weapons.
3)Get some equip that gives you concealment he can't ignore with his equip. That way he can't sneak at all.
4)Use stuff that forces him to move, limiting him to standard actions. For example ongoing area of effect spells that force fort saves.
|
How about a Monk, sack Chr for Dex and Wis bonuses. Get blind fight feat and feats that give you an edge on Stealth and Perception, use any darkness against him. Magical darkness can not be overcome by Fogcutting Lenses, they only help with fog and they blur vision giving a -4 penalty on Perception checks. Lastly, his Rog should only have 10 ranks in each skill as a level 10 char. I know you were hoping for a high init char, but a 10th level monk will not only hit hard, but be hard to hit with the right gear (Bracers of Armor give an armor bonus but don't count as armor for the purposes of Monk abilities).
Play a wizard.
Cast emergency force sphere as an immediate action as soon as your opponent acts.
Summon monsters repeatedly until the rogue is dead. I suggest earth elementals to grapple him, and tremor sense to locate him.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You can't sneak attack with splash weapons such as alchemist's fire, so your friend's rogue build is invalid RAW.
*edit*
You haven't posted his saves but i'm guessing outside of reflex they are atrocious. Don't do damage to him, just find a way to outright remove him from the arena.
a) He has no invis detection. Just turn invis, summon earth elementals and you've won the fight.
b) buy a scroll of contingency and use it before the fight to cast either deep slumber or stinking cloud for instant win
c) use the same goggles as him and apply the above tactics.
|
I would make a lvl 4 ninja lvl 6 witch and cast slumber then use vanishing trick so that he cant traget you or the party then attack him while he is out and cast vanishing trick again.
then rinse and repeat.
this is a jerk toon to use but i have found it to be very good at knocking down a players pride. lol hope this helps.
Just to point it out:
6thlvl-----------combat trick, deadly aim
8thlvl-----------combat trick, Quick draw
He cannot select a rogue talent more than once, unless otherwise specified. This and the splash sneak attack makes his build illegal. Oh, and if he cast darkness, he cannot see throught.
Just to point it out:
He cannot select a rogue talent more than once, unless otherwise specified. This and the splash sneak attack makes his build illegal. Oh, and if he cast darkness, he cannot see throught.6thlvl-----------combat trick, deadly aim
8thlvl-----------combat trick, Quick draw
Swashbuckler may take combat trick twice.
Anything that grants you concealment will outright stop this build from sneak attacking. Blur or a Cloak of Displacement (minor) will stop him doing effective damage.
If his darkness is causing problems then a simple item with Heightened Continual Flame (level 4) will counter anything up to and including Deeper Darkness. This costs (caster level x spell level x 10gp)+ material cost + item cost. So cast it on a the inside of a 10gp small box or locket (so you can close it to hide the flame) and that's 340gp for a slotless item that dispels all darkness.
This guy will go first but he's very squishy. Getting either your character or a couple of summons into melee with him, or hitting him with a fortitude or will save-or-suck will end him quickly.
Swashbuckler may take combat trick twice.Just to point it out:
He cannot select a rogue talent more than once, unless otherwise specified. This and the splash sneak attack makes his build illegal. Oh, and if he cast darkness, he cannot see throught.6thlvl-----------combat trick, deadly aim
8thlvl-----------combat trick, Quick draw
Good catch, didn't notice.
As others have started to point out, your friends build is illegal. You can't sneak attack with spalsh weapons like alchemist fire. He also can't sneak attack you when you have total concealment. Unless I'm missing something he can't see in the dark or thorugh fog as a human, unless Black-blooded Oracle is giving him some special ability.
*just saw fogcutting lense, if he is using them pick up a set yourself. No longer unable to see in fog.*
He also can't sneak attack from a range greater than 30 ft without the snipers goggles, which he can't use at the same time as the fog cutting lenses. So outside of 30ft he can't use ranged sneak attack.
And as also noted, a cloak of displacement will outright stop his sneak attack unless he picked up the rogue talent to ignore it, which according to the above build he hasn't.
If nothing else, be a barbarian. He literally wont ever be able to sneak attack you, which appears to be his main shtick. Improved Uncanny Dodge never looked so good.
You can even safely avoid being able to see him. You know he's in the fog/darkness. Just spam out AoE disables or save-or-sucks that target anything but reflex and you'll take him to pieces. If you can hit him with something as simple as Blindness he's stuffed, given he's only got +4 to his fort save. Any kind of caster should be able to beat him.
He's going to waste his first turn casting fog/darkness. Use your turn to Cast Greater Invisibility then move and he can't touch you. You can take him to pieces without reciprocation.
Swashbuckler may take combat trick twice.Just to point it out:
He cannot select a rogue talent more than once, unless otherwise specified. This and the splash sneak attack makes his build illegal. Oh, and if he cast darkness, he cannot see throught.6thlvl-----------combat trick, deadly aim
8thlvl-----------combat trick, Quick draw
Also, Rogues can take Ninja Trick (Combat Trick) on top of their combat trick by RAW, while Ninjas cannot do the reverse. It's one of the many odd things that one class can do but the other cannot (like how ninja can get advanced talents but rogue can't get the master tricks).
Be an hexcrafter 10. Equip yourself with an Armor of fortification to avoid sneaks. Take evil eye, slumber, flight cackle. Let him act. Then flight and move up. You should survive the aoo. Then, evil eye on him, -4 saves, and cackle. Let him stare impotent at you, then on your turn, cackle and slumber. You win. If he roll a natural 20 (which is likely the only way to pass the save if you equip well, let him act, then cackle and throw a black tentacles spells. If he fail the first save just cdg him (you should start with at least 16 int, including racial, put 2 increments and a +4 headband, you should have a dc of 21 for hexes, and at best he should have only 10% at best to pass). Our straight witch, same tactic. You shouldn't have too much problems.
| 13 people marked this as a favorite. |
after all the stuff about rogues on these forums, I keep reading the title of this thread as
help me kick this puppy
or
help me push this old man down some stairs
or
help me take some candy from a baby
Be something that casts magic jar.....play some emo music and stab self repeatedly while crying and screaming "Why don't you love me?"
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Be something that casts magic jar.....play some emo music and stab self repeatedly while crying and screaming "Why don't you love me?"
this works best if you are drinking in the shower while crying and listening to Dashboard Confessional
...or so I've heard
>.>
<.<
*sobs*
after all the stuff about rogues on these forums, I keep reading the title of this thread as
help me kick this puppy
or
help me push this old man down some stairs
or
help me take some candy from a baby
I too keep thinking...wait, you have to try? What are you doing wrong?
And apprently that answer is: the rogue isn't following the rules.
In all seriousness, he will spend his first action creating something that obscures vision. Then wait at the edge for his next turn?
So when he's done, fly above him and go invisible. Summon stuff until the match is over.
All of these suggestions are good, but they don't have the panache of beating a multiclassed rogue/wizard with a multiclassed rogue/wizard.
Rogue 5 Wizard 5. The Rogue is only necessary so you can sneak attack him with Ray of Frost or a dagger or something.
Get Fog Goggles. Get Shadow Strike feat. Beef your enchantment saves. Cast Hold Person (memorized, but have a wand for backup). Walk up and stab him to death with a your weak sneak attacks. Or spam him with a Wand of Enervation. Or walk up next to him and spam him with Ray of Frost and add your sneak attack, because that actually works. Or just unarmed strike him into unconsciousness. If you do that last one though, make sure that you do not have Improved Unarmed Strike because it's funnier. Or you could use a sap.
This is better because it's a really weak build and you'll still destroy him.
Or, to mess with him another way, be a Tiefling, get Fiend Sight twice, then drop Deeper Darkness on yourself. Walk up. Stab him in the face.
Or you could just go straight barbarian, buy yourself some fogcutting lenses, then charge in and sunder his own fogcutting lenses. That would also be really funny.
Use this.
Traits: None (HARD MODE)
Initiative: +7(9); Senses: none; Perception +28(36 vs traps)
Defense:
AC: 19, touch 17, flat-footed 12 (+7 Dex)
HP: 72 (10d8+10); Fort +3, Ref +14, Will +5;
Defensive Abilities: Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trap Spotter, Trap Sense +3, Evasion
Offense:
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Special Attacks: Sneak Attack 5d6 (1's count as 2's)
Attack: +16/+11
Statistics:
Str 10, Dex 24, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 14
Base Atk +7; CMB +14; CMD 24
Feats: Skill Focus (Stealth), Skill Focus (Disable Device), Shadow Strike, Weapon Focus (Shortbow), Skill Focus (Acrobatics), Skill Focus (Perception)
Skills: Acrobatics +26, Bluff +15, Diplomacy +15, Disable Device +36, Escape Artist +26, Perception +28 (36 vs. Traps), Sleight of Hand +20, Stealth +33
Languages: Common
SQ: Sneak Attack 5d6, Trapfinding, Evasion, Rogue Talent (Fast Stealth), Trap Sense +3, Rogue Talent (Powerful Sneak), Uncanny Dodge, Rogue Talent (Trap Spotter), Improved Uncanny Dodge, Rogue Talent (Terain Mastery {urban}), Advanced Rogue Talent (Hide in Plain Sight {urban})
Equipment: Belt of Dexterity +4, Eyes of the Eagle, Ring of Maniacal Devices, Vestment of Escape, +1 Stalking Shortbow, Improved Shadow Leather Armor, 300g left
This guy was made to go through a series of different encounters, some non-combat related. Switch out a couple of the skill focus feats, and some of the items that help with the skills that won't apply to the duel.
With a +33 stealth, you have to roll a 1 and he has to roll a 20 for him to see you. No concealment, cover, or the like needed. Being in the arena (urban setting) you don't need it thanks to Terrain Mastery (urban) and Hide in Plain Sight (urban).
Note: I can't remember if I included the Urban terrain bonus in the stealth skill modifier already or not.
after all the stuff about rogues on these forums, I keep reading the title of this thread as
help me kick this puppy
or
help me push this old man down some stairs
or
help me take some candy from a babyI too keep thinking...wait, you have to try? What are you doing wrong?
And apprently that answer is: the rogue isn't following the rules.
Well, more specifically, not following PF rules. There's a lot of reasons rogue got horribly nerfed from 3E (along with falling behind other classes, which is like a nerf). One of them is not being able to sneak attack with flasks.
But yeah, I'm not terribly motivated to help someone beat up one of the worst classes in the game.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
PF or even D&D is not a PvP game. So, I can't understand why you want to do this in the first place.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
PF or even D&D is not a PvP game. So, I can't understand why you want to do this in the first place.
Because it's fun once in a while?
Lol it is fun indeed xD
Thanks everyone, i was able to see some of the flaws myself, and created
an eidolon special for this guy, with tremorsense and blindfight.
Grab, Constrict, Final Embrace...Boom. 41 CMD, try to auto save that.
one bite for 3d6+35 damage every turn.
without te summoner with wands and slow..and haste...and heroism, i could use aspect to gain tremorsense with him also. dazing metamagic rod, hold monster, boom. ultimate destruction.
But rly thanks for all, i am really new with all this, now i have evolved in Character creation.
But you used a Summoner to do it, which invalidates the entire exercise. You coulda been a contender!
One question, and why he wouldn't be able to do Sneak Attack with Splash weapons? as long as a i know, if you throw an acid bottle in the eye, hurts more than in the leg.
he also got this...
Fungal Stun Vial
Price 75 gp; Weight 1/2 lb.
Harvested from a rare fungus, these small vials emit a bright blue glow, and are commonly used in intertribal kobold disputes. When broken, a fungal stun vial releases a flash of bright blue light in a 10-foot radius and dim light in a 20-foot radius. All creatures within the flash area must make a Will save (DC 20). Creatures that fail are stunned for 1d2 rounds if they're in the area of bright light, or are confused for 1 round if in the area of dim light.
and he stunlocks me...he doesn't even need sneak attack anymore :S
One question, and why he wouldn't be able to do Sneak Attack with Splash weapons? as long as a i know, if you throw an acid bottle in the eye, hurts more than in the leg.
You're trying to do precision damage with an item that is specifically designed to NOT do precision damage.
Be a Barbarian. A naked barbarian with a MWK greatclub and scent.
You are immune to sneak attack and can sniff him out. Find him and beat him. He literally wont be able to kill you faster than you can kill him.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One question, and why he wouldn't be able to do Sneak Attack with Splash weapons? as long as a i know, if you throw an acid bottle in the eye, hurts more than in the leg.
Because Jason hates Rogues sneak attacking. No really, it was made in reaction by Jason to being brought up as a thing rogues can do in the Alpha.
Dude, i tried Barbarian, was my first option, he stunlocked me until i was dead, like i couldn't save the stun once. he didn't even sneak attack me. he just killed me doing the weapon damage, creating difficult terrain with one of his stone spells, darkness and fog cloud. i could sniff him but, can't pinpoint him so easily, i would have to save perception against the almighty stealth (which is the rogue forte, and perception is not so high as his stealth) he controls the character, totally.
i was actually thinking in a Divination Wizard, designed to win him initiative, with the same familiar he has got, and one level in oracle for the same freakin bonuses he got.
i never played using this rule in PF that says, that any character that hasn't acted in the round, is flat footed, that is deadly.
he also got this...
Fungal Stun Vial
Price 75 gp; Weight 1/2 lb.
Harvested from a rare fungus, these small vials emit a bright blue glow, and are commonly used in intertribal kobold disputes. When broken, a fungal stun vial releases a flash of bright blue light in a 10-foot radius and dim light in a 20-foot radius. All creatures within the flash area must make a Will save (DC 20). Creatures that fail are stunned for 1d2 rounds if they're in the area of bright light, or are confused for 1 round if in the area of dim light.
and he stunlocks me...he doesn't even need sneak attack anymore :S
How is he making the save?
I assume that he is winning due to some hideous condition of the fight that stops you from doing anything sane like starting out wildshaped (something you can do 24/7 by this level) or with useful spells pre-cast (what use is Contingency if you have to not cast it.)
Just play something immune to sneak attack that can do lots of damage or apply nasty status effects.
I would take a Druid 10 or a Wizard 10 easily, but not with restrictions that no sane caster would agree to. (Like I have to not cast any spells, not use any powers and start within 30 feet of someone trying to kill me.)
An Ifrit Barbarian with smokesticks can do to him what he did to others.
If he's beating you because he's using that stupid Fungal Stun Vial he isn't beating you. He found a very particularly overwhelming item that isn't even a core item.
Seriously, where the hell is that item even from?
Also, metagame the shit out of this and close your eyes. If your eyes are closed you certainly couldn't see a flash of light to be stunned by it.
My favorite 1 round kill method involves grappling. If you take Rapid Grappler, you can make a Grapple Check as a swift action. The prereq for that is Greater Grapple, which lets you make a grapple check as a Move Action. The prereq for that is Improved Grapple, which gives you benefits when you make a Grapple Check as a Standard Action. If you start your round adjacent to your opponent, you can initiate a grapple as a standard action, pin him as a move action, then tie him up as swift action. I prefer Expert Captor to Rapid Grappler. You normally wouldn't tie up a grappled opponent you haven't pinned yet because you get a -10 on your check. With Expert Captor, a level 2 Cavalier Order of the Penitent ability, you don't.
The problem with Grappling and tying up a level 10 rogue is that he probably has a very high Escape Artist mod, and he might even have a Ring of Freedom of Movement. There are ways around Freedom of Movement, though. And there are ways of making your Grapple Mod very high.
Except this doesn't work. Maintaining a grapple is something happens in rounds when you start your turn grappling. No where does anything in the greater grapple feats change this. So you would have to have a two turn take down. Which is still really good.
I am actually glade this proposed one turn take down doesn't work because if it did work it would permanently remove a person from a fight without a second chance. Almost every affect in pathfinder, until you start getting to really high levels, allows a second chance to get out of it, if said affect would completely remove you from the rest of the fight.
Before people start screaming slumber hex at me I want to remind everyone that it only lasts rounds and you can be woken up by an ally throwing their last iterative at you.
Now with the above rogue build we are trying to take down there are numerous ways to end the fight pretty dang quick.
If you are trying to overwhelm with amazing damage consider building a Barbarian and giving him scent and blind fighting, or use the same items the rogue is to see through the fogs.
If you are going for a simple one turn K.O. play a witch with quicken ill omen and Ice Tomb. He will have to roll that low fort save twice. To survive his initial round of sneak attack consider a potion of blur right before the fight, or any of the already suggested methods to get concealment.
If you want to just embarrass his character play a tank type character. Almost any class can get AC up into the 30's by level 10 if they really want to. I have a monk build that laughs at people with a 39 AC. Once he stops cheating on using splash weapons to sneak attack his regular attacks are not going to be able to hit you with any amount of consistency.
If he's beating you because he's using that stupid Fungal Stun Vial he isn't beating you. He found a very particularly overwhelming item that isn't even a core item.
Seriously, where the hell is that item even from?
Also, metagame the s!$~ out of this and close your eyes. If your eyes are closed you certainly couldn't see a flash of light to be stunned by it.
UE pg 224 Blindman's Fold 12k
UM pg 218 Echolocation
Watching the rogue cry as his abilities are now useless... Priceless.
Shoot if you play a druid or a cleric that vial probably wont even work since by level 10 you would probably be pushing a +14 will save.
I don't understand where the difficulty is, clearly.
The way I see it, you need two things:
1} quickened dispel magic
2} Anything else. A nice persistent dominate person for instance.
If this guy seriously things obscuring vision is what he needs to spend his first action on, let him. Fix the vision problem by undoing his stupid wand-based spell, then baleful polymorph him into a bunny.
Also, two words... wind wall. With that, you can just laugh at him for a while.
Also, using a metamagic rod of extend, greater, you can just casually time stop, then summon say... seven trumpet archons to horn-spam him into paralytic oblivion. You might want to add a quickened silence on something you can carry right at the end, so you're immune to them.
Basically, any full caster should be able to show this guy the reality of how awesome he isn't.
It seems that part of the problem, in addition to flasks being used incorrectly, is that this rogue has been using a Kobold specific item to force a DC 20 will save or be stunned. At level 10 most pathfinder characters would need to roll high to beat a DC 20 will save.
Ironically most character's equipped to stop this tactic are also the ones you are generally most qualified to fillet this rogue.
initiative...4(familiar Compsognathus
This was errata'd down to a +2 initiative bonus.
Actually it is a +4. The other one was errata'd to also have a +4 I believe.
If you could please link to the errata that says otherwise I would be happy to change my tune though.
His AC is 18 and he should have around 70 HP. So, locate him when he attacks (he can't use stealth when he attacks, so it's a DC 10 perception check to notice him, more or less situations modifiers), and smash him to the ground. You should be able to kill him before he kills you if you're a combattant.
If you feel it to be necessary, a potion of blur is 300gp and should protect you from sneak attack. The same way, an heightened eternal torch (built with an heightened eternal flame spell) costs a ridiculous amount of gp and makes you immune to darkness.
EDIT : he won't even do sneak attacks past the first round, because as written rules don't allow for sneak attacks by stealth (even with concealment).
EDIT2 : his skills are off by one point (11 ranks instead of 10), and perception is at +9 : Don't forget the -4 from the fogcutter lenses.
|
|
Finding him should be pretty easy with just a few things (Hunter's Eye, the spell that gives you +20 Perception to find somebody, comes to mind, as does Acute Senses for another +20...). As for the Stun Vials...they're DC 20, guys. That's great at low levels, but at 10th level? I can casually make characters who only fail that on a 1.
But really, for any duel, a save-or-die caster with maxed out Initiative and Save DCs is always the way to go.
Oracle of the Heavens built to abuse Color Spray with Noble Scion of War, Reactionary, and Improved Initiative comes to mind...That'd be, what, Cha 26 for a +14 Initiative (before Items or Eldritch Heritage...both of which are easy to take), and DC 25 Will Save to avoid being screwed with Spell Focuses and Heighten Spell.
Or go Synthesist Summoner/Paladin for pure cheesy ridiculusness. Or any one of a hundred other options.