How is that any different from "The Evil orc crits you with his greataxe... you're dead!"?I HATE this. If one roll is gonna either kill me or put me out of the combat, I want to roll it myself.
(sarcasm) It's just sooooo much fun to hear "The Evil wizard casts a spell... you're dead!" (sarcasm)
If PF goes that way, I'll just go play another system.
That does happen, but very, very little melee combat is "one shot/one kill".
OTOH, there are a lot of spells where "save or suck".
The DM might as well play by himself and send us a email telling us what happened. I want to roll the dice and control my characters destiny.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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How is that any different from "The Evil orc crits you with his greataxe... you're dead!"?I HATE this. If one roll is gonna either kill me or put me out of the combat, I want to roll it myself.
(sarcasm) It's just sooooo much fun to hear "The Evil wizard casts a spell... you're dead!" (sarcasm)
If PF goes that way, I'll just go play another system.
Because past low (well, low-ish) levels, martials can't kill you with a single attack (even a crit); or even if they do, that at least requires two rolls (one of which has to be a lot more extreme than is needed for a failed save).
Single-d20 insta-kills are reserved for casters.
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Armor ad DR and vitality systems for D&D have always been shoddy crap because everything has to be derived from stats available in AC/HP tables for compatibility. Games that are their own system can have properly sensible combat rules.
Have to agree on this point. Armor as DR and Vitality are not especially popular for D&D/Pathfinder because the system isn't built to use them. It's very hard to design variant rules that change fundamental aspects of the game while still fitting in smoothly with everything else that was built on the game's default assumptions.
Not to mention that one of the main reasons variant rules have never been terribly popular in D&D is the lack of support for them outside of the book they're published in. One thing I have to give Pathfinder credit for, they do a fairly good job of supporting all their published classes compared to 3.5's bad habit of making a ton of classes that only got material in the book they were initially published in.
Jiggy, DrDeth: That, to me, seems more like a problem with spells than in who rolls the dice. If the offending spells were toned down (and I think we can all agree it won't happen, at least in this edition of PF), would you mind switching to the NAD system?
I want to roll as many dice as possible. In fact, my perfect system would have the Monsters have a NAD and the PC's have saving throws.
Jiggy, DrDeth: That, to me, seems more like a problem with spells than in who rolls the dice. If the offending spells were toned down (and I think we can all agree it won't happen, at least in this edition of PF), would you mind switching to the NAD system?I want to roll as many dice as possible. In fact, my perfect system would have the Monsters have a NAD and the PC's have saving throws.
Do you like to roll dice when you DM? Personally, I like to, but find opposed rolls way too swing-ey to just let everyone roll all the time on everything, y'know?
Edit: And let's just enter that under the thread topic. I think opposed rolls are bad way to handle skill contests, and that whoever instigates the contest should make a skill roll against DC 10 + opponent's relevant modifiers.
The swimming and underwater combat rules are a mess.
They work fine for the larger-than-life badass heroes that PCs are supposed to be. I actually find them too harsh.
The swimming and underwater combat rules are a mess.They work fine for the larger-than-life badass heroes that PCs are supposed to be. I actually find them too harsh.
I concur. Effectively instant death if you fall unconcious. Movement speed is obliterated and anything like Sahuagin can tear you to shreds. Casters cant cast spells with vocal components, A 3d fight makes them hyper vulnerable..etc.
I don't know that it exists anymore, but in v3.5 there was a very hard to find rule that said you could use verbal components underwater provided you could breathe underwater.
The swimming and underwater combat rules are a mess.They work fine for the larger-than-life badass heroes that PCs are supposed to be. I actually find them too harsh.
Your larger-than-life badass heroes capable of one-shotting the Tarrasque still can't skewer that whale with the harpoon from the jolly boat.
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I don't know that it exists anymore, but in v3.5 there was a very hard to find rule that said you could use verbal components underwater provided you could breathe underwater.
Spellcasting Underwater: Casting spells while submerged can be difficult for those who cannot breathe underwater. A creature that cannot breathe water must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell underwater (this is in addition to the caster level check to successfully cast a fire spell underwater). Creatures that can breathe water are unaffected and can cast spells normally. Some spells might function differently underwater, subject to GM discretion.
Not so hard to find now I guess. :)
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Dexterity in PF has nothing to do with SPEED.
Let me repeat that. Dexterity in PF has nothing to do with SPEED.
A high Dex does not make you move faster.
A high Dex does not grant you additional attacks.
A high Dex does not let you actually gain more attacks with your off hand more easily.
Hardcoded into the rule, using Dex as a basis for fighting is not natural and is born out by real world fighters.
The ability to move quickly is an effect of POWER, which is guided by a strength to weight ratio, and by BAB, which is almost as much about ingrained movement.
High Dex means you move precisely and smoothly. It does not mean you move FAST. Your reaction time is excellent, but that doesn't make your fist move faster.
Speed of attack is purely a function of BAB...how fast you move your weapon repeatedly and capitalize on opportunities is a result of practice and skill. Someone with a high BAB will look marvelously coordinated and graceful simply because they fight and practice those moves so much even if they don't have natural stats to back them up.
Strength is used for To-Hit because it accurately reflects POWER, i.e. movement over time. Someone who is strong can move something faster then someone who is weak. It's a fact of life. And if you can move something faster in combat, you can hit something more easily. Your weapon moves more quickly to the openings you pick up.
Finesse fighting is all about pinpoint precision and coordination. It is DIFFICULT TO DO. You can't take a parry head on like a str fighter. Small fractions of an inch or a few degrees off, and your techniques fail. High Dex people use it because they are the only ones who have the coordination to use that level of precision when fighting.
And no, you aren't 'striking at weak points.' EVERYONE strikes at the weak points! That's what fighters DO. However, you don't have the strength or power to get through the hard points like most fighters do, so you actually have a MORE LIMITED NUMBER OF TARGETS IN MELEE. Which means your style is again, harder to do and harder to pull off.
Swirly, showy swordplay in movies is "Perform: Sword Dancing." Spin moves are a way to get yourself killed in a real fight, you don't take your eyes off an opponent if you can help it.
Dexterity as defined in PF has absolutely nothing to do with your speed in any capacity. THe closest you can get is reaction time for Initiative. What you keep thinking is Dexterity is BAB...the fruits of long, hard practice to get good at something.
==Aelryinth
Not to mention that one of the main reasons variant rules have never been terribly popular in D&D is the lack of support for them outside of the book they're published in. One thing I have to give Pathfinder credit for, they do a fairly good job of supporting all their published classes compared to 3.5's bad habit of making a ton of classes that only got material in the book they were initially published in.
Have to agree with your comment about class support. WotC was terrible on that aspect. What also annoyed me about them was they reprinted the Thri'kreen race about 12 different times. There were so many subsystems for 3rd edition that may as well never have been created, with the amount of support (read: none) they received outside of the book they were printed in (looking at you, Magic of Incarnum... terrible waste of money). So glad that Paizo at least continues to support all of their classes in the books they create. And I hope they continue to do so.
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Not to mention that one of the main reasons variant rules have never been terribly popular in D&D is the lack of support for them outside of the book they're published in. One thing I have to give Pathfinder credit for, they do a fairly good job of supporting all their published classes compared to 3.5's bad habit of making a ton of classes that only got material in the book they were initially published in.Have to agree with your comment about class support. WotC was terrible on that aspect. What also annoyed me about them was they reprinted the Thri'kreen race about 12 different times. There were so many subsystems for 3rd edition that may as well never have been created, with the amount of support (read: none) they received outside of the book they were printed in (looking at you, Magic of Incarnum... terrible waste of money). So glad that Paizo at least continues to support all of their classes in the books they create. And I hope they continue to do so.
Yeah, poor Magic of Incarnum. I'm really looking forward to getting DSP's Pathfinderization of it.
I've played a lot of other systems that lacked AC/hp. Liked some of them a lot, especially "James Bond 007," with its absurdly deadly fire combat rules.
One thing that a number of other players said, though, was, "I wish we could just whittle down hp instead of miss/heavy wound/BAM dead!"
In other words, the ablative nature of hit points is seen as a positive feature by any number of people. I'm not one of them, but I am saying that the popularity of "hp" is not purely because of the D&D name, and not necessarily because "vitality points aren't meant for D&D".
I'm fine with Spell Resistance existing (Mathematically, it's rather like a miss chance for spells). I just think it should be added to monsters more judiciously, and I think the SR Yes/No line on spells could be a lot more carefully regulated.Leaving them without defenses against spells without saves.Putting my vote in for Spell Resistance again. Its a cumbersome and unnecessary hold-over from previous editions of the game. We get rid of the mechanic and simply add the Monster ability 'Spell Resistance' which gives creatures +4 to saves vs. spells and SLA's.
I LOVE the way Star Wars Saga handled such things.
Essentially all saves were static DCs. And all force powers (spells) and other special attacks required an attack roll against them.
So in Pathfinder you might have the following:
Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +5And anytime someone attacks you (which may or may not require an attack roll or spell resistance check as well) you would need to make a saving throw to mitigate the effects.
But in Star Wars, a similar character would look more like this:
Fortitude Defense 15, Reflex Defense 12*, Will Defense 15So if somebody poisons me, the poison makes an attack roll against my Fortitude Defense (more potent poisons have higher attack rolls). If someone tried to turn me into a bunny, shoot me or blow me up, or charm me, they would have to make "attack rolls" against my Fortitude, Reflex, and Will Defense respectively. The attack rolls could be static (such as with some poisons) or could be based on the attacker's own stats (as they are in Pathfinder).
I found this to be an elegant method of handling pretty much every kind of attack you could ever imagine. Pathfinder sort of went in that direction with Combat Maneuvers and Combat Defense (essentially copying the attack/AC paradigm), but could have been SO much simpler if they had they applied that to other things such as saves.
Now see, I never played SW but I'm absolutely in love with this. Treat armor and natural armor as DR and you're set. Sure a dragon would theoretically be much, much easier to hit, but would also be much, much harder to damage. As it should be.
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I still don't get how DR and natural armor are different. DR as it's written includes effects just "bounc[ing] off" harmlessly, which seems to be exactly what natural armor and normal armor are meant to do.
And then you have the kind of DR that just "instantly heals" damage, which seems to infringe on fast healing's turf . . .
I'm really tempted to post a summary of the Hârnmaster skill and combat rules here, but it's not even close to Pathfinder, so I'm heroically avoiding that. :-)
I still don't get how DR and natural armor are different. DR as it's written includes effects just "bounc[ing] off" harmlessly, which seems to be exactly what natural armor and normal armor are meant to do.
And then you have the kind of DR that just "instantly heals" damage, which seems to infringe on fast healing's turf . . .
In the cases of some outsiders, it's that their bodies are just incredibly resilient to all but the most anathema of weapons and effects against them. With elementals or some other creatures, it's that there just isn't a way to harm their physical form that easily. DR can manifest in a lot of ways. Keeping it, armor class, and fast healing/regeneration separate isn't a bad idea.
Not so much.Things that completely shut down charging builds.
-Difficult Terrain
-Allied Players (particularly bad if you're on Horse, since your maneuvering is pigish)
Feat tax is never a good answer. ;)
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Armour as DR doesn't work by itself. The systems that have this usually have more static damage totals and hit points as well. One (Drakar och Demoner, a swedish version of BRP) had the heaviest armour reduce all damage by 8, and the worst a PC could dish out was somewhere around 1d12+1d4 or so. Critical hits (1/20) allowed you to ignore the armour protection completely, but made no extra damage. People also had up to 18 hit points which did not improve. The point is, armour as DR requires other factors to work.
Grapple still needs a flowchart.I keep hearing this comment from people, but I don't get it. Grapple's not that complicated; does it even have enough steps to make a flowchart? Is there something I'm missing?
What makes it that complicated is the different penalties changing your CMD and CMB score as you're trying to use them.
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Feat tax is never a good answer. ;)Not so much.Things that completely shut down charging builds.
-Difficult Terrain
-Allied Players (particularly bad if you're on Horse, since your maneuvering is pigish)
What does that have to do with the fact that difficult terrain and allies don't instantly shut down charge builds?
Nothing. And everything!
Dexterity in PF has nothing to do with SPEED.
Let me repeat that. Dexterity in PF has nothing to do with SPEED.
A high Dex does not make you move faster.
A high Dex does not grant you additional attacks. (But it is a requirement for the feats that do grant them.)
A high Dex does not let you actually gain more attacks with your off hand more easily.
Hardcoded into the rule, using Dex as a basis for fighting is not natural and is born out by real world fighters.The ability to move quickly is an effect of POWER, which is guided by a strength to weight ratio, and by BAB, which is almost as much about ingrained movement.
High Dex means you move precisely and smoothly. It does not mean you move FAST. Your reaction time is excellent, but that doesn't make your fist move faster.
Speed of attack is purely a function of BAB...how fast you move your weapon repeatedly and capitalize on opportunities is a result of practice and skill. Someone with a high BAB will look marvelously coordinated and graceful simply because they fight and practice those moves so much even if they don't have natural stats to back them up.
Strength is used for To-Hit because it accurately reflects POWER, i.e. movement over time. Someone who is strong can move something faster then someone who is weak. It's a fact of life. And if you can move something faster in combat, you can hit something more easily. Your weapon moves more quickly to the openings you pick up.
Finesse fighting is all about pinpoint precision and coordination. It is DIFFICULT TO DO. You can't take a parry head on like a str fighter. Small fractions of an inch or a few degrees off, and your techniques fail. High Dex people use it because they are the only ones who have the coordination to use that level of precision when fighting.
And no, you aren't 'striking at weak points.' EVERYONE strikes at the weak points! That's what fighters DO. However, you don't have the strength or power to get through the hard points like most fighters do, so you actually have a MORE LIMITED NUMBER OF TARGETS IN MELEE. Which means...
I don't often agree with Aelryinth, but this is pretty spot on (and my bolded edit is really more tongue-in-cheek than actual disagreement). :)
The sheer number of ways to shut down sneak attack/precision damage can be annoying. Its not that those monsters are particularly common in the bestiaries, its that they seem to show up an inordinate number of times in scenarios.
It slightly amazes me that people discussing the merits of AC / armour as DR / HP seem not to have played any other RPGs.
I've played a lot of other systems that lacked AC/hp.
Ummm, yeah.
Dexterity in PF has nothing to do with SPEED.
Speed in terms of how far you can move in a round? Of course not. But so what? Pathfinder would tell you that all human beings that carry the same amount of weight can cover the same amount of ground in six seconds. That's absolutely silly.
Speed in terms of how "quick" you are? Absolutely:
Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance.
What is being "agile"?
adjective \ˈa-jəl, -ˌjī(-ə)l\
: able to move quickly and easily
The ability to move quickly is an effect of POWER, which is guided by a strength to weight ratio, and by BAB, which is almost as much about ingrained movement.
High Dex means you move precisely and smoothly. It does not mean you move FAST. Your reaction time is excellent, but that doesn't make your fist move faster.
The strength-to-weight ratio that you're referencing is not accurately represented in the game. In Pathfinder, as with every other iteration of the game, the higher one's Strength score is, the greater their bonus to melee attack rolls will be. It's not just that, though: the higher one's Strength score, the higher their weightlifting ability is. Comparatively small martial artists, fencers, etc., lack "circus strongman"-level weightlifting ability, but are quite capable of striking much more quickly than those who do have it. That's a function of strength-to-weight ratio that, again, is not reflected in the game.
On the other hand, someone with more muscle mass will - everything else being equal - always do more damage than the person with less muscle mass when their respective blows connect equally well.
Speed of attack is purely a function of BAB...how fast you move your weapon repeatedly and capitalize on opportunities is a result of practice and skill.
The Base Attack Bonus is not a function of speed. It is a function of "skill in combat" and translates as accuracy. Anybody who doesn't suffer from a physical handicap can flail their arms around several times a second. It takes a trained combatant, however, to make those strikes count. And while the additional attack* mechanics of the game are not exactly true to life (e.g., more often than not, it is the latter attacks in a "full attack" iteration that carry the most effort), they nonetheless somewhat capture the fact that a skilled combatant can do more in a certain amount of time than a less-skilled combatant, and can do so more accurately.
* I would love to see a "parry" mechanic (much like with the Duelist PrC and the Dueling system), and I would love to see players get a choice of how to use their multiple attacks. E.g., you should not be required to use your highest attack first.
Actually, I'd want that option regardless of whether there were a parry or duelling system in place.
You're overstating the relationship between agility and speed. Agility is the ability to move quickly with control. A gymnast is agile: a sprinter is not.
On the other hand, someone with more muscle mass will - everything else being equal - always do more damage than the person with less muscle mass when their respective blows connect equally well.
When you're talking about an armored foe (and most are, either by natural armor or actual armor), 'equally well' includes strength. A stronger person is more likely to get past armor. This is how Pathfinder tries to model 'armor reduces damage'. If I'm a warrior in full plate, it doesn't matter how nimbly you're attacking me with a fencing foil: I'm not going to notice, unless you slip it between armor plates. The guy with a hammer, though, can just barrel through.
I guess what I'm saying there is that the smaller and more mobile the weapon, the more dex should matter: dexterity doesn't matter when swinging a two-handed hammer, because you just can't make subtle corrections. But the game already handles this: For certain weapons, Weapon Finesse allows you to use Dex. And the bodily control and speed of Dexterity is required for TWF.
And those things should take feats, because they're much more difficult than the brute-force approach.
Dexterity in PF has nothing to do with SPEED.Speed in terms of how far you can move in a round? Of course not. But so what? Pathfinder would tell you that all human beings that carry the same amount of weight can cover the same amount of ground in six seconds. That's absolutely silly.
Not so! Actually, short distance chases between creatures with the same speed are decided by...
*drumroll*
a Dexterity check.
That said, the stronger you are, the better you can control your weapon. A Str 7 person will not be able to exert the same rapid control over a greatsword's movement and momentum as a Str 15 person.
You're overstating the relationship between agility and speed.
Respectfully, I'm not. I'm pointing out that the very definition of "agile" qualifies the term's relationship to quickness. Dexterity and agility have a direct relationship to hand-eye-coordination, fine motor skills, etc.
Agility is the ability to move quickly with control.
Precisely. Accuracy is a product of control.
A gymnast is agile: a sprinter is not.
This is an assumption based on a generalization, though. Nothing precludes a sprinter from also being agile; whether or not they can ever be as agile as someone who has devoted their life to gymnastics, on the other hand, is a different question altogether.
When you're talking about an armored foe (and most are, either by natural armor or actual armor), 'equally well' includes strength. A stronger person is more likely to get past armor.
I agree, which is why I also advocated for the dumping of the traditional AC model and switching over to something like "Armor as DR". Then, all else being equal, a person with a greater amount of muscular strength will absolutely be at an advantage when it comes to getting through armor.
I guess what I'm saying there is that the smaller and more mobile the weapon, the more dex should matter: dexterity doesn't matter when swinging a two-handed hammer, because you just can't make subtle corrections.
I would argue that you're making my point... and that you're also pointing out other shortcomings in the game system. The larger and heavier a weapon, the less able you become to target with meaningful accuracy. It becomes less a matter of coordination and more a matter of whether your opponent can get out of the way or survive the impact.
That having been said, I like the idea that certain melee weapons should have a minimum Strength requirement - just like compound bows do. :)
But the game already handles this: For certain weapons, Weapon Finesse allows you to use Dex.
And yet, that contradicts the very basis on which you uphold the status quo: how is it that my (same stats, everything else also equal) Dextrous scimitar-equipped fighter is able to get through full plate just as well as your Strong heavy pick-equipped fighter?
If your answer is that one of the two has to spend an extra feat, see below. :)
And those things should take feats, because they're much more difficult than the brute-force approach.
Two-weapon fighting? Absolutely, since we're not talking about using both your hands independently, concurrently. That is definitely a skill that requires significant commitment from the user.
Fighting with "finesse", though? I respectfully disagree. Much of the world learned to fight with lighter, more slender, curved blades by default. They didn't engage in specialize training to figure out how to do so; they simply used weapons that were designed to do a specific job under specific conditions.
Also, conceptually, a high Str person can swat aside or just power through a low Str character's parry.
You know, this is one of the concepts I struggled to figure out a mechanic for.
Let's say that I have a Strength of 10 and a Dexterity of 18, and you have a Strength of 18 and a Dexterity of 10. We both wield longswords (in the Pathfinder sense), are the same level, and possess the same height and reach. On the one hand, you're right. If I tried an overhead cut against you in a non-surprise round, such an attack should be both predictable and fairly simple for you to parry. On the other hand, parrying a thrusting attack that I make should be more problematic.
More to the point, Pathfinder longswords can't be used to stab. You get what I mean, though. :)
1. Move the bonus to melee attack rolls from Strength to Dexterity. Whether or not my fast is quick enough to hit your face is a function of Dexterity. Whether me doing so hurts you (as opposed to simply annoying you) is a function of Strength.
2. Get rid of the current Armor Class concept. It's a clumsy marriage of armor and "dodging".
3. Get rid of the current Hit Point concept. It, too, is a clumsy mix of health and "dodging".
This is one of the things I liked about True20. I was excited to hear about the option rules in Ultimate Combat for Armor and Vigor but even glancing at it I thought it was a bit clumsy because the AC/HP etc were so intertwined in the system. Granted we did a little bit of tweaking of True20's statuses but I liked the idea of:
Dex=Attack, Str=Dmg. If you want to hit, you need the coordination. And then you have a feat that is basically the reverse of Weapon Finesse (when using 2-handed weapons, you can use Str to attack)AC was just Defense (with your Base Attack added to this as well as a Base Combat). Dodging and using shields went into this
And instead of HP you essentially had Toughness, a save against the damage dealt. Con and armor went into this
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On the AC as ablative armor/hp thing. I still remember poor long deceased alternity. With its damage steps that got reduced by armor and its three pools of hp (stun/wound/mortal) that got copied by the first d20 Star Wars.
Alternity was a really janky system by modern views, but it definitely still worked for this sort of stuff (it was just terribly inelegant about it).
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It slightly amazes me that people discussing the merits of AC / armour as DR / HP seem not to have played any other RPGs. Runequest introduced this back in 1978.
Runequest, Fantasy Hero, GURPS, Chivalry & Sorcery, Tunnels & Trolls, and so forth.
Armor as DR is just as clunky as AC.
On the AC as ablative armor/hp thing. I still remember poor long deceased alternity. With its damage steps that got reduced by armor and its three pools of hp (stun/wound/mortal) that got copied by the first d20 Star Wars.
Alternity was a really janky system by modern views, but it definitely still worked for this sort of stuff (it was just terribly inelegant about it).
Oh I just loved Alternity back in the day! It had a style all its own!
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Oh I just loved Alternity back in the day! It had a style all its own!On the AC as ablative armor/hp thing. I still remember poor long deceased alternity. With its damage steps that got reduced by armor and its three pools of hp (stun/wound/mortal) that got copied by the first d20 Star Wars.
Alternity was a really janky system by modern views, but it definitely still worked for this sort of stuff (it was just terribly inelegant about it).
Yeah, I loved that system. It had a lot of problems that I notice when I take off my rose-colored glasses (I still remember the hours I spent on freaking power/space maintenance on ships) but the way its melee worked, the way its init worked, the various levels of success or failure..
I still occasionally see its echoes in other d20 stuff (since it was proto-d20) and it makes me nostalgic.
People I speak to today, view me as a crazy grognard when I speak of the system where an impossible task required you to roll below a number on a d20 and then add the results of three more d20.
Design Manager
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It slightly amazes me that people discussing the merits of AC / armour as DR / HP seem not to have played any other RPGs. Runequest introduced this back in 1978.Runequest, Fantasy Hero, GURPS, Chivalry & Sorcery, Tunnels & Trolls, and so forth.
Armor as DR is just as clunky as AC.
I seem to recall Anima also using a system where armor functioned more like DR and it wasn't terribly smooth there either.
Of course, the whole d% system is a little cumbersome....
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Dexterity in PF has nothing to do with SPEED.Speed in terms of how far you can move in a round? Of course not. But so what? Pathfinder would tell you that all human beings that carry the same amount of weight can cover the same amount of ground in six seconds. That's absolutely silly.
Speed in terms of how "quick" you are? Absolutely:
Dexterity measures agility, reflexes, and balance.What is being "agile"?
adjective \ˈa-jəl, -ˌjī(-ə)l\
: able to move quickly and easily
The ability to move quickly is an effect of POWER, which is guided by a strength to weight ratio, and by BAB, which is almost as much about ingrained movement.
High Dex means you move precisely and smoothly. It does not mean you move FAST. Your reaction time is excellent, but that doesn't make your fist move faster.
The strength-to-weight ratio that you're referencing is not accurately represented in the game. In Pathfinder, as with every other iteration of the game, the higher one's Strength score is, the greater their bonus to melee attack rolls will be. It's not just that, though: the higher one's Strength score, the higher their weightlifting ability is. Comparatively small martial artists, fencers, etc., lack "circus strongman"-level weightlifting ability, but are quite capable of striking much more quickly than those who do have it. That's a function of strength-to-weight ratio that, again, is not reflected in the game.
On the other hand, someone with more muscle mass will - everything else being equal - always do more damage than the person with less muscle mass when their respective blows connect equally well.
Speed of attack is purely a function of BAB...how fast you move your weapon repeatedly and capitalize on opportunities is a result of practice and skill.The Base Attack Bonus is not a function of speed. It is a function of "skill in combat" and translates as accuracy....
1) There is nothing in PF where Dex modifies your actual speed.
2) Agility notably includes flexibility and ease of movement, which is what you are glossing over. If you can't move easily, you aren't moving quickly. And you can be quite agile and not all that quick, if you're capable of twisting yourself into a pretzel.
3) The Strength to weight ratio is reflected in the Str To-Hit. You have more control over objects because they are lighter to you. A brute with 24 Str can handle a greatsword as easily as a fencer with 10 Str can handle a rapier. Except, well, he's using a GREATSWORD.
4) Circus Strongmen are not highly skilled fighters. Lighter people move quickly, but have little force behind the blows. If they were trying to match force, they'd not be able to rat a tat. It's like comparing a drum stick to a mace for beating on a tom tom. Lightness =/= speed. Anybody using something light moves faster with it.
5)BAB has a function of speed, in addition to accuracy. All you have to do is look at the little mechanic called 'multiple attacks'...you get more as your BAB goes up. You execute more attacks in the same amount of time...your weapon is moving faster. Yet your Dex hasn't changed.
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The Dexterity check for a race between two characters is effectively an initiative check. They don't actually cover any more distance with a high Dex.
You could also make a case for Combat Reflexes and the extra attacks given by a Dex mod, but that's more likened to quick reflexes taking advantage of opportunities, as opposed to always having multiple attacks all the time. i.e. if someone doesn't trigger an opening, you don't get any extra attacks.
Accuracy is about control, and the biggest factor of control is how heavy the object is to how strong you are. That's why many people use light weapons...not because they are using Dex, but because they can control the light weapon more easily. Big people use bigger weapons because they can still control them easily. Big people also HAVE bigger weapons in their arms and fists, hence their 'low weight' threshold is much higher then that of small people. That's not about Dex...that's size and strength. If Batman's fist weighs twice that of a teenage Kung fu star who thinks she's all that...yes, she's probably going to be faster, but that doesn't mean she's got more dex. It means she's LIGHTER.
If you want an example of high speed high strength, watch Olympic hammer tossing. Those guys are huge, and when they start spinning to throw that hammer, it is MOVING. They need great control, great skill, and great strength to do their job. Saying 'weightlifters' is a complete misnomer when talking about Strength. Those guys are not trained to hit people. Say 'heavyweight boxer', and now you've got an applicable example.
As was pointed out with the 18 dex/10 Str guy vs 18 Str 10 Dex, using finesse combat is unnatural and HARD. You have to be extremely precise, go through all sorts of extra motion, take advantage of angles and leverage with very little margin for error. You can't take a heavy blow head on, you MUST deflect it correctly or it's simply going to barrel right through you. It takes a great amount of training to do properly.
As for touch attacks, note you can still deflect/parry a touch attack, and a strong man has a better chance of getting through a parry. He'll also likely have the longer weapon!
In short, the entire 'I have great coordination, I can hit stuff' function is BAB and combat training, not Dex, in Pathfinder. Dex is subsumed to be the hit bonus for ranged combat, and Str for melee combat. BAB is the equivalent of 'Perform: Weapon Drill' in this respect, except more important because it applies to live combat.
Another way of looking at it is: High Str: Blocks easily, hard to parry. High Dex: Avoids easily, blocked easily.
And one last truism: The skilled big man will beat the skilled little man, all other things being equal. A Heavyweight boxer will maul a boxer of lighter weight categories, the difference in strength is too much.
And don't bring up UMA and the Gracie's. Yep, little guy beat big guys...using an attack style they weren't all that familiar with. Now the big guys are learning it, and guess what? the big guys are winning the matches again.
==Aelryinth
Oh I just loved Alternity back in the day! It had a style all its own!On the AC as ablative armor/hp thing. I still remember poor long deceased alternity. With its damage steps that got reduced by armor and its three pools of hp (stun/wound/mortal) that got copied by the first d20 Star Wars.
Alternity was a really janky system by modern views, but it definitely still worked for this sort of stuff (it was just terribly inelegant about it).
Oh Alternity. Why oh Why did we not get an Alternity 2.0
Also, conceptually, a high Str person can swat aside or just power through a low Str character's parry.You know, this is one of the concepts I struggled to figure out a mechanic for.
Let's say that I have a Strength of 10 and a Dexterity of 18, and you have a Strength of 18 and a Dexterity of 10. We both wield longswords (in the Pathfinder sense), are the same level, and possess the same height and reach. On the one hand, you're right. If I tried an overhead cut against you in a non-surprise round, such an attack should be both predictable and fairly simple for you to parry. On the other hand, parrying a thrusting attack that I make should be more problematic.
This is a very limited example, but when I did this sort of thing (actually thinking of getting back into it), my regular sparring partner was 6'2" and 240lbs, I'm 5'10" and 200lbs. We have about the same reach (he has a slight edge here) and same training level (I have a slight edge here), I'm faster/more agile/better control, he's Stronger (and 4 years younger). I rarely win.
Edit: I do however wipe the floor with him at ranged weapons (Bow's, Pistols, and Rifles).
