Wizards cast their magic using purely their own faculties. So excuse us if we have don't have to rely on someone else doing something, to unlock our power.
Funny how a super high INT and years of study still leave the wizard casting in super slow motion compared to the sorcerer, who does all that in six seconds flat.*cough* spellbooks and years of tutelage *cough cough*
Anyway, the truth is out. :P
*cough* Now where the hell is Bupu with my dead-lizard-cough-suppressant amulet?
What's that? Oh, you mean the spellbook that the Wizard crafted himself using his own mind to manipulate and shape the arcane energies at his command into written form?
Hard work trumps natural talent, but you know what trumps hard work? Someone with natural talent that also puts in the hard work.
A sorcerer is just some guy living off the coat tails of his parents' sexual adventures. The Wizard is the guy who decides to take control of his own destiny, puts in the hard work, and with his own exemplary natural mental faculties, re-shapes the world to do his bidding.
The Sorcerer is like little Draco Malfoy, "When my father hears about this..." While the Wizard is Hermione Granger slapping his spoiled little ass and out-performing Draco in every magical field under the sun.
bahaha! :D
#wizardangst
What's that? Oh, you mean the spellbook that the Wizard crafted himself using his own mind to manipulate and shape the arcane energies at his command into written form?
No. We mean the spellbook that someone else wrote that he learned from. Y'see, wizards do require someone else to have done something for their power ... someone had to teach them.
There are people who survive extremely high falls (that 33,000 foot fall), and there are some that break their necks and die falling from a 3 inch ledge (and not being frail and eldery, either).
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No. We mean the spellbook that someone else wrote that he learned from. Y'see, wizards do require someone else to have done something for their power ... someone had to teach them.
What's that? Oh, you mean the spellbook that the Wizard crafted himself using his own mind to manipulate and shape the arcane energies at his command into written form?
Anything in those books the Wizard could have learned on his own. Wizard's just benefit because their magic is more natural, so anyone can do it.
Think of it this way, anyone can learn to be a sword master, given enough time. They can also seek out help to achieve these goals faster, but it's not necessary.
The Sorcerer? Now he can't do that. He has to rely on the power of his ancestors to do anything. His power isn't natural to himself, it's natural to someone else. That's why he doesn't benefit from study aids, or tutors, or anything else.
He *demands* to be a special snowflake, and because he's special, he has to do everything the wrong way, just to be defiant.
That's not to say they can't be powerful, they can. But it's all relative. Sorcerers are very powerful, when compared to the casting of something like say, a Bard.
The Sorcerer may be the biggest fish in the lake, but that doesn't mean he's the biggest fish in the ocean.
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This sorcerer/wizard sub-debate is interesting and all but not really what I'm looking for when I read this thread. Move it to a new thread, maybe?
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This sorcerer/wizard sub-debate is interesting and all but not really what I'm looking for when I read this thread. Move it to a new thread, maybe?
I find this absurd and unnecessary.
And...now we're back on topic.
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Law is not legal.
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This sorcerer/wizard sub-debate is interesting and all but not really what I'm looking for when I read this thread. Move it to a new thread, maybe?I find this absurd and unnecessary.
And...now we're back on topic.
Not sure if you're talking about my comment or the debate, but either way...well played.
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So if I find Sorcerers absurd and wonder why they don't just play Wizards...
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Sorcerers have their power handed to them. They don't need to train, they don't need to study, they don't need to spend 12 hours a day working at something.
Just like every other class, they have to practice control and getting more out of their magic. The ones that did not work to master their powers, were consumed by them as children.
They get 2 skill points for level as the balance point for a being a full 9 level arcane spellcasting class.
So how's that balance out anything? Especially with our INT casting friends. Wizards get skills, Clerics get Will, and Sorcerers get diplomancy?
On this line of CHA-casters, why does an oracle get bonus spells from a mystery every even level, but sorcerers get bloodline spells every odd level? I just don't see why you'd pick a bloodline for bonus spells ever since I realized you're effectively stunted into getting them later than even other sorcerers of your level.
Imagine this dialogue with a Stormborn sorcerer.
"Look at me now, I'm master of lightning!"
"Actually, you get that spell NEXT level. Right now, you get Fireball."
"But I want to actually use the shtick of my bloodline!"
"Should've thought of that before you were born."
So how's that balance out anything? Especially with our INT casting friends. Wizards get skills, Clerics get Will, and Sorcerers get diplomancy?
Sorcerers get Use Magic Device.
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So how's that balance out anything? Especially with our INT casting friends. Wizards get skills, Clerics get Will, and Sorcerers get diplomancy?
On this line of CHA-casters, why does an oracle get bonus spells from a mystery every even level, but sorcerers get bloodline spells every odd level? I just don't see why you'd pick a bloodline for bonus spells ever since I realized you're effectively stunted into getting them later than even other sorcerers of your level.
Imagine this dialogue with a Stormborn sorcerer.
"Look at me now, I'm master of lightning!"
"Actually, you get that spell NEXT level. Right now, you get Fireball."
"But I want to actually use the shtick of my bloodline!"
"Should've thought of that before you were born."
Yeah, they realized how bad they'd goofed with the Sorcerer and made sure not to make that mistake with the Oracle. Ross mentioned that his fix is that the Sorcerer gets his spell a level earlier and it's the only spell he gets, which seems like a solid fix (though it might do some wierd things to some of his spells/day/known sets).
On this line of CHA-casters, why does an oracle get bonus spells from a mystery every even level, but sorcerers get bloodline spells every odd level? I just don't see why you'd pick a bloodline for bonus spells ever since I realized you're effectively stunted into getting them later than even other sorcerers of your level.Imagine this dialogue with a Stormborn sorcerer.
"Look at me now, I'm master of lightning!"
"Actually, you get that spell NEXT level. Right now, you get Fireball."
"But I want to actually use the shtick of my bloodline!"
"Should've thought of that before you were born."
Yeah, it's a minor glitch, but it works power wise. You are very excited to get that first spell of a new level, so getting a bonus spell next level is still OK. I see Ross Byers idea, but that would nerf a sorc pretty bad, since quite a few bloodline spells aren;t very good. Mind you, they are often nice spells for free, but Tongues as your first (and at that level only) 3rd level spell? Remove curse?
Rather than treating those spells as a nice bonus, you'd have to plan them out very carefully. I took Starsoul and find Repulsion mostly useless.
And of course, nothing forces you to take Fireball "Right now, you get Fireball." I'd take Fly.
(though it might do some wierd things to some of his spells/day/known sets).
Move the spells/day table down a row, banishing either row 1 or row 3. Spells Known table stays the same, because it doesn't include mystery/bloodline spells.
If your campaign reaches level 20, then extrapolate the new 20th level row.
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but that would nerf a sorc pretty bad, since quite a few bloodline spells aren;t very good.
Getting a 3rd level spell at level 5 is strictly better than not getting them until level 6. How is that a nerf?
Even if the spell you get isn't that great, it's at least thematic (since its part of your bloodline), and you can use those 3rd level slots you would not otherwise have to cast lower level spells. Possibly with metamagic.
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Hopefully if you're picking a bloodline it's for a reason other than just the bonus spells.
I don't think it really makes sense that a Fire bloodline sorcerer has to wait until level 5 to cast scorching ray. It doesn't have to do with the quality of the spells: these are the spells you're supposed to be good at, and you have to wait longest to cast them.
A wizard casts that spell at level 3.
A sorcerer of a different bloodline can get it at level 4.
A fire bloodline sorcerer has to wait until level 5.
(Or take it at 4 and then use his ability to 'trade off' a spell every other level to get rid of it at 6, leaving down a spell known at level 5, and unable to trade off a different spell he no longer wants at level 6.)
Waiting till level 5 only makes sense for spells that aren't on the sorcerer/wizard list at all, so it's all upside, regardless of when you get them. But for spells other sorcerers can also cast, it makes very little sense for you to have to wait even longer. For instance, if the Elemental Bloodline gave you flame strike, then even two levels behind, you're the best sorcerer at casting that spell, because the Fey guy can't cast it at all.
But for spells already on the sor/wiz list, of all the classes with access to the Sor/Wiz list, the elemental sorcerer is the absolute worst at casting scorching ray. And that shouldn't be.
Sorcerers have their power handed to them. They don't need to train, they don't need to study, they don't need to spend 12 hours a day working at something.
Just like every other class, they have to practice control and getting more out of their magic. The ones that did not work to master their powers, were consumed by them as children.
They get 2 skill points for level as the balance point for a being a full 9 level arcane spellcasting class.
So how's that balance out anything? Especially with our INT casting friends. Wizards get skills, Clerics get Will, and Sorcerers get diplomancy?
On this line of CHA-casters, why does an oracle get bonus spells from a mystery every even level, but sorcerers get bloodline spells every odd level? I just don't see why you'd pick a bloodline for bonus spells ever since I realized you're effectively stunted into getting them later than even other sorcerers of your level.
Imagine this dialogue with a Stormborn sorcerer.
"Look at me now, I'm master of lightning!"
"Actually, you get that spell NEXT level. Right now, you get Fireball."
"But I want to actually use the shtick of my bloodline!"
"Should've thought of that before you were born."The non Stormborn sorcerer is using one of his precious spells known slots to get it earlier than when the Stormborn sorcerer is getting it for free, so it balances out.
Hopefully if you're picking a bloodline it's for a reason other than just the bonus spells.
But it's a big reason to pick a bloodline. It's the most common bonus you get. Your powers manifest decently enough, but not exactly commonly, and you get a few bonus feats. Plus, some bloodlines give really good bonus spells. I'm not sure how DrDeth never found Repulsion helpful, but even still, Starsoul is a pretty decent list. The problem is that if you want to build a theme you need to decide whether you drop a spell known or wait around for it, which is kind of a drag when it comes to image.
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Regarding wizards vs. sorcerers: I think that because wizards predate sorcerers by a few decades, we tend to think of wizards of the benchmark. (I know I do.) But it's actually helpful to start with sorcerers.
Sorcerers are like these X-Men types (without the body armor and big HD); they've got a handful of weird powers, just like most of the Bestiary. Don't need any material components either, most of the time.
A little later, some jealous lab geek figures out he can duplicate a lot of sorcerer tricks with powders and potions. And then you have wizards.
Sorcerers are mutants, wizards are lab geeks. Sorcery is the natural way to cast spells, wizards simulate it but often need additional (material) components.
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How about the fact that convincing people of the truth is Diplomacy, but convincing them of a lie is Bluff?
How about the fact that convincing people of the truth is Diplomacy, but convincing them of a lie is Bluff?
Not that simple. If the character truly belive the lie is truth then it is diplomacy.
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That doesn't exactly make it less weird.
That doesn't exactly make it less weird.
It seems to make sense, though... You don't necessarily have to be a good liar to convince people of the truth, but being a bad liar is likely to tip people off about any false claims you make (maybe the character acts nervous when he's lying, like biting his nails, stuttering or looking away. Those signs wouldn't necessarily be there if he's convinced he's telling the truth).
Regarding wizards vs. sorcerers: I think that because wizards predate sorcerers by a few decades, we tend to think of wizards of the benchmark. (I know I do.) But it's actually helpful to start with sorcerers.
Sorcerers are like these X-Men types (without the body armor and big HD); they've got a handful of weird powers, just like most of the Bestiary. Don't need any material components either, most of the time.
A little later, some jealous lab geek figures out he can duplicate a lot of sorcerer tricks with powders and potions. And then you have wizards.
Sorcerers are mutants, wizards are lab geeks. Sorcery is the natural way to cast spells, wizards simulate it but often need additional (material) components.
I very much so disagree. The closest thing to 'natural' with Sorcerers, is the Arcane bloodline. Even then, it's not the Sorcerers powers manifesting, it's one of his ancestors.
That's the big thing with Sorcerers, they draw the magic from their blood based off the actions of someone else. If they're mother, or father, or great, great, great, grandfather hadn't had a romance with a dragon, or an encounter with an aberration or whatever, the Sorcerer wouldn't have the power at all.
Plus, some of the bloodlines I think are patently ridiculous. The Orc bloodline being the big one. Since when are Orcs so magically delicious, their offspring can draw upon the power of the Orc to manifest spells? Will there be a Human Bloodline? A Halfling Bloodline? A Dwarf Bloodline?
The Wizard is the more natural caster, because everything he does, he does himself. For the Wizard it simply comes down to:
Am I really smart? If so, I can use my intelligence to understand the energies of the world and shape it to my whim. If no, then I'm not a wizard and I have to rely on the actions of others to be a 9th spell level arcane class.
For sorcerers it's:
Was one of my ancestors magical? If yes I can cast spells. If no, I can't.
The sorcerer is like the son of rich parent who spends his entire life living off his trust fund. Sure, he's 'rich' but he's not rich because he did something, he's rich because his parents are rich.
I'd prefer it if the flavor for Sorcerers wasn't so dependent on the actions of people who came before him.
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In a lot of cases, I like to reflavor the "bloodline" as an initiation instead, like walking the Pattern in Zalazny's Amber novels, or smoking peyote in Castenada's The Teachings of Don Juan.
"At last, your decision was made. With firm intent, one night on the Summer Solstice you burned yourself horrifically in homage to the Efreet Lords, and that flame now lives in you. As your practice and willpower improve, so too do the powers you've tapped into."
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I'd prefer it if the flavor for Sorcerers wasn't so dependent on the actions of people who came before him.
Well, you can flavor the bloodlines as anything you want. Even the CRB hints at "bloodlines" gained through other means.
Maybe you conduct some kind of arcane experiment on your self, or made a deal with a demon or something like that.
Orc bloodline is... odd. I prefer to see it as simply being a bloodline particularly common in orc-sorcerers, so other races came to associate it to orcs. Or maybe descendants from an orc deity, etc.
What I find weird is that the guys who are supposedly exploding with arcane power get their spell levels later than the guy who spends years studying magic... IMO, both should get spells at the same level. Wizards would have the advantage of versatility while Sorcerers would have the advantage of raw power (in the form of having more spells per day or maybe some metamagic-related ability).
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Tels, consider a creature like a dragon: it casts like a sorcerer, and if it takes sorcerer levels, they stack. It's an innate power of the dragon. Not something their ancestors did (other than be dragons, I guess.)
I inherited all kinds of genetic traits from my parents and ancestors. That doesn't make my accomplishments and talents theirs instead of mine.
And bloodlines, as it has been repeatedly pointed out, don't have to literally mean half-breed ancestors.
Aberrant can mean that a Lovecraftian horror has reached out to you, through no fault of your own.
Celestial, Infernal, or Abyssal can mean someone, possibly even you, made a pact with an outsider for power.
Elemental can mean you grew up in a strongly elementally-aligned area and you have come in tune with it. It can be almost druidic for a Fire bloodline sorcerer to come from a scorching desert or a volcanic island, no weird ancestry needed.
Destined can be about things your descendants do, rather than your ancestors. Or just that you're special.
Undead can be the result of you personally being afflicted with necromantic power.
Arcane can mean anything from living under the 'power lines' near a wizarding college, to having a wizarding ancestor, to having a natural gift with magic to the point where you really do memorize spells instead of recording them in a spellbook.
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Orc bloodline is... odd. I prefer to see it as simply being a bloodline particularly common in orc-sorcerers, so other races came to associate it to orcs. Or maybe descendants from an orc deity, etc.
I think of the Orc bloodline as how the Arcane bloodline runs strong in some Elven families. It's an accumulated racial magic.
Orcs just love fire.
How about the fact that convincing people of the truth is Diplomacy, but convincing them of a lie is Bluff?
...and then convincing a liar that you believe his lie in order to improve his attitude requires both skills. :)
For sorcerers it's:
Was one of my ancestors magical? If yes I can cast spells. If no, I can't.
The sorcerer is like the son of rich parent who spends his entire life living off his trust fund. Sure, he's 'rich' but he's not rich because he did something, he's rich because his parents are rich.
I'd prefer it if the flavor for Sorcerers wasn't so dependent on the actions of people who came before him.
Alright, ignoring my previous comment about this being off-topic (because I'm a hypocrite like that; plus, I *did* say it was interesting), there are a few issues here.
First of all, "For sorcerers it's: Was one of my ancestors magical? If yes I can cast spells. If no, I can't" is a moot question. If they're already sorcerers, they already had a magical ancestor, pretty much by definition.
Second of all, I think the sorcerer represents someone who has taken his gifts and embraced and honed them to a point where they are developed. That's why we have both the sorcerer and the Eldritch Heritage feat. The feat represents the power of the bloodline itself, while the class represents taking the bloodline and developing it. If it was all just inherent talent, then it wouldn't be a standalone class. That's my take on it at least, I'm open to changing that belief if there's a reason to.
Third, the relationship between inherent qualities and abilities pervades our life as well as the game. You're not going to be a physicist if you don't have a certain baseline intelligence (which is definitely largely out of your control), you're not going to be a successful clinical psychologist without a certain amount of intelligence *and* empathy. Likewise, you can only be successful as a wizard if you have an intelligence of 11 or above. You can't be a good fighter if you're born with a crippling disease and no way to overcome it.
It's really the myth of the self-made man at work here. No one is 100% in control of their own destiny. We are all influenced by factors that occurred both before we were born as well as during our formative years before we could really even make decisions based on much more than reflex.
I see no difference between the sorcerer and other classes in this regard.
Yeah, none of you are going to be able to convince me the 'bloodline' aspect of sorcerers isn't absurd. Fact of the matter is, Sorcerers rely on someone else for power, much like all of the divine casters, and even the Witch. The Wizard, Magus, Bard and Summoner* don't rely on anyone but themselves to cast their spells. It's either powered through their understanding of the world (intelligence), their exceptional musical abilities, or their skill at summoning.
*I don't consider an Alchemist a 'caster' as much as he is like the greatest charlatan and potion brewer in the game.
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Yeah, none of you are going to be able to convince me the 'bloodline' aspect of sorcerers isn't absurd.
Well, yes, if you insist on focusing only on the one explanation you find absurd, and ignore all of the various other explanations offered that aren't, then of course you're going to continue finding it absurd.
Much like all M&Ms are green, if I throw away all the ones that are yellow, brown, blue, etc.
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I find the narrow surfaces rules somewhat absurd when considering different sized creatures.
A rat has to make an acrobatics check on any surface less than 11 inches wide and at the same DC as the tarrasque.
I've house rules the size multiplier applies to the widths. So small and medium are as printed. Tiny creatures double the stated widths for a given DC, fine creatures quadruple it whilst large half it and so on.
Witches rely on their familiar and patron to cast their spells. Wizards and Magi rely on those before them to give them their starting spells, as a reflection of their study before obtaining that first level.
Also, what Kirth said in post 792.
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Yeah, none of you are going to be able to convince me the 'bloodline' aspect of sorcerers isn't absurd. Fact of the matter is, Sorcerers rely on someone else for power, much like all of the divine casters, and even the Witch. The Wizard, Magus, Bard and Summoner* don't rely on anyone but themselves to cast their spells. It's either powered through their understanding of the world (intelligence), their exceptional musical abilities, or their skill at summoning.
*I don't consider an Alchemist a 'caster' as much as he is like the greatest charlatan and potion brewer in the game.
Unless the wizard was miraculously born out of nowhere, and selflearnt first how to create languages, inks, and papers, then self learnt magic and writing it down on home-made spellbooks, the wizard DOES rely on someone else.
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Yeah, none of you are going to be able to convince me the 'bloodline' aspect of sorcerers isn't absurd.
"You're wrong, I'm right. I'm taking my ball and going home."
Sheesh. If you wanna discuss it, then do so, if you just wanna keep bashing a class because you don't like the flavor of someone learning to use an inborn power instead of learning it from someone else then why are you even still whining about it?
Wizards were,are and always will be better than sorcerers, period. I love broad sweeping generalizations but this one I cannot be unconvinced of its utter truth.
That doesn't exactly make it less weird.
Wait till you try to convince someone of a truth that is too strange to believe.
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Wizards were,are and always will be better than sorcerers, period. I love broad sweeping generalizations but this one I cannot be unconvinced of its utter truth.
Except the part where sorcerers are better.
Bwahahahahaha thanks, a bit of humor was just what I needed! :P