I don't see why you'd want to give up adding your level to damage in place of dexterity, unless you're only planning to dip the class.
Because precision damage is annoying. It doesn't work on a bunch of enemies and doesn't crit. To solve the dip problem put it at level 5 or something like the Gunslinger, and of course make it so it only applies when using one handed weapons in one hand.
Its not like the Swashbuckler is a Wizard who can drop all of his other stats to a minimum and focus everything on Int. A swashbuckler needs a 13 Str for Power Attack, a decent Con since he needs the HP and has a terrible con save, a decent Wis since he has a terrible Will save, decent Cha since it powers his special abilities and yet has to focus on Dex to be a decent combatant which is the purpose of this class. Again only Int can be dumped and that isn't even an option if you like maneuvers and the wording about Combat Expertise doesn't get fixed.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Soooo.. just caught that bit about Charmed Life being an immediate action and not a free action...
C'mon Paizo. Seriously? Seriously?
Why even bother? Everything this character does is an immediate or swift action, and perhaps that is by design so that maybe, just maybe somebody will do something besides precise strike, but this one stings. It's one thing to have a million deeds, with the choice of one per round (and gods help the mythic swash). But did Charmed Life really need a kicker like that? It has finite uses per day! If they get used in one round or seven, what's the big deal? Why do I feel like every "fix" on this class is designed to get under my skin for ever questioning the dev team?
Well, you didn't like Riposte requiring Combat Reflexes, so we'll just limit it to once per turn and not let you use any of your other deeds. Well, you don't like having MADly debilitating Fort and Will saves, so here is a token that may reward raising yet another stat that makes your saves not completely terrible--but you can't use any of those deed things that make the class special on that turn.
Seriously?
Look, I'll playtest this and hopefully have my mind changed, but having a bajillion options that you can never use in the same round is a little frustrating. I don't see how the sum of the class abilities makes up for the limiting fighting style. I mean, how is this as good as a gunslinger again? Or a fighter for that matter?
Seriously?
Man, at least Swashbuckler's Grace seems OK. I better go read that to make sure it isn't a swift action...
I just went from a little disappointed to considering D&D Next (where all light weapons get Dex to hit and damage out of the gate... just saying). Obviously, I'll get over that crazy thought, and Paizo will still get my money because the investigator is absolutely awesome, but something tells me saving a few bucks and buying from Amazon isn't off the table. Maybe I was just too excited about this class when it was announced, and having the expectation that Paizo would finally make an awesome and effective Dex/Cha fighter in d20 was too much. Maybe it's my fault.
Seriously?
Paizo will still get my money because the investigator is absolutely awesome
Maybe this is a bad time to tell you they ripped the Investigator a new one with this revision. =/
If they get used in one round or seven, what's the big deal? Why do I feel like every "fix" on this class is designed to get under my skin for ever questioning the dev team?
Meglomania and paranoia.
Now speak directly into your prize winning Azaleas.
I'm sure there are any number of reasons for it: they needed to define an action and swift is one most classes don't use so it was probably safe, its the only kind of action you can specifically take out of turn (which is when you usually need to make saves) and specifying "free action you can do at any time" would take up more space, or maybe two people came up with two different ideas for how to nerf the thing and both got thrown in, or the greys were playing around with the dev's heads again.
All unfounded speculation but all more likely than your hypothesis.
*psst.. he's on to you! manuever 32! *
Precise Strike vs Pumping Strength (or Dex to Damage)
• Precise Strike is +1 damage per level.
• Strength (or Dexterity) bonus is about +4 at 1st level up to +9 at 16th level. (+13 if two-handing a weapon)One Handed & Shield vs. Two-handed
• One handed power attack - +2 damage at 1st level to +10 at 16th level.
• Two handed power attack - +3 damage at 1st level to +15 at 16th level.
• Swashbuckler can wield a buckler, so scaling AC Bonus of +1 to +6.These all seem like fair trade offs to me.
Here, once again, is the math post I linked to so many times in the previous thread.
Factoring in the bonus from better dice on the base weapon, the 1.5x bonus from str, and from power attack, and assuming everything else to be even...
The bolded section is the flaw in your logic, right there. One-handed weapons allow you to use a shield, which I know will be argued to be worthless, since "AC is pointless at a certain level" - but this has not been my group's experience through level 15 twice, so we're going to have to agree to disagree. Also, Power Attacking isn't actually something a Swashbuckler would really want to do, -1 attack for +2 damage is barely an even trade in most cases and likely not worth the feat investment unless you fight a lot of weaker enemies who low AC (who you'd probably destroy anyways). Also, the Power Attack penalty would apply to Parry attempts, so I'd probably pass on it, personally.
Your math link also follows the same assumption that a scaling boost to AC is worthless by comparing a Swashbuckler to a two-handed fighter, which cannot keep up in AC with the Swashbuckler. An appropriate comparison of a Swashbuckler with a Sword & Board fighter was done at 6th level in the last thread, and the Swashbuckler won.
Paizo will still get my money because the investigator is absolutely awesomeMaybe this is a bad time to tell you they ripped the Investigator a new one with this revision. =/
There is the Rogue... Dragging down other classes again...
First, to MechE, sword and board fighters are not optimal until Shield Master, so the fact that the swash can manage to beat that build (which is still contestable) before 11 or 12 is, sadly, not a big feather in the cap.
All unfounded speculation but all more likely than your hypothesis.
I know. It was a knee-jerk reaction. Honestly, that is the initial impression I get, and having Stephen post things like "Sorry, but that is the way I'm leaning right now" in response to people not liking the immediate action riposte suggestion do not help alleviate that. I realize that this isn't the case, but I need to think for a few seconds first. Probably still a bad sign though.
Either way, I'm not enthused. And now that I'm hearing the Investigator got hosed I have to go read that now. Hopefully this is not true. Definitely staying away from the boards for the night though. Maybe in the morning Charmed Life won't be terrible.
See you all tomorrow.
I see a lot of people here talking about how this class can't dump str because of power attack, but isn't that the reason piranha strike exists? I'm not a numbers guy, but would it hurt the class too much to go piranha instead of power?
I see a lot of people here talking about how this class can't dump str because of power attack, but isn't that the reason piranha strike exists? I'm not a numbers guy, but would it hurt the class too much to go piranha instead of power?
That further restricts the class to "Light Piercing weapons" on top of the already onerous restrictions.
Can I get some help figuring this out, the game available to me is any paizo product, 15 point but and one trait. Help me make a level one human swashbuckler?
Under the first draft I almost rage quit the character... but I really want to love the class.
STR 13 DEX 16(+2 racial) CON 10 INT 8 WIS 9 CHA 14?
So there is power attack with +4 hit for 1D6+3 at level one. Better than my last attempt at least. Still 4 SP/level. Thoughts on doing it better?
Sadly i get
STR: 18 DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 12 CHA: 7
and take extra panache for 3 panache. With everything as a swift/immediate action you shouldn't spend more than 2 without getting some back.
That 14 charisma you took got you ONE penache point. Thats NINE character points (over half of your total) to get half the benefit of one feat.
Trait: heirloom weapon, with the bonus on attacks of opportunity (to make you better at the ripostes)
You only need charisma for
the saving through ability: which you won't use because you're busy stabbing things
The step back thing, which you won't use because parry/riposte is better.
skills: 3 grand on a circlet of persuasion and you're good.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Alright, I have to raise my hand and ask a question here. Why can't the Swashbuckler simply get a straight Cha to saves bonus at level 2? Even with this direct copy of one of the best paladin abilities, the class may still be worse than a paladin in most games except for ones with no evil creatures to smite.
The way things are, almost all (Lawful Good) swashbucklers will simply dip two levels into paladin to pick up those save bonuses and smite evil. They don't really lose much for it.
Alright, I have to raise my hand and ask a question here. Why can't the Swashbuckler simply get a straight Cha to saves bonus at level 2?
Every rogue would be taking a 2-3 level swashbuckler dip?
Alright, I have to raise my hand and ask a question here. Why can't the Swashbuckler simply get a straight Cha to saves bonus at level 2?Every rogue would be taking a 2-3 level swashbuckler dip?
Good point, I wasn't thinking of the dipping problems ;) (but honestly, the rogues need the help anyway, hahah)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Alright, I have to raise my hand and ask a question here. Why can't the Swashbuckler simply get a straight Cha to saves bonus at level 2?Every rogue would be taking a 2-3 level swashbuckler dip?
and this would break rogues?
The main reason why I pointed this out was because there is a huge class feature equality problem between paladins and swashbucklers at level 2.
Paladins get +Cha to saves and the ability to heal themselves as a swift action. (note that paladins have better saves than a swash in the first place)
Swashbucklers get the ability to add +Cha to a save roll... 3 times per day as an immediate action. (good luck if someone goes at you with two poisoned weapons)
Now, I will admit that Paladins are kind of crazy awesome and we don't necessarily need another class as powerful as that. Plus, they do have that alignment restriction thing as a downside. However, this comparison does show that swashbucklers are lagging and probably need another ability (or a change to Charmed life) at 2nd level.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Definitely a lot of improvement here, especially with Cha feeling more useful. On the other hand, I agree with people here who are saying the weapon restriction still causes a thematic issue.
Dwarven swashpickler > pirate with scimitar
So if I grab a whip proficiency, I can use whips with my swashbuckler. That alone makes me happy.
"Tax relief is on its way! And I spell relief..." whips his name into the wall. "Z... O... R... R... O!"
Is it too meta of me to consider the possibility that the de-emphasis on strategic build options and the heavy emphasis on short-term, tactical choices is actually a deliberate decision based on the idea that most heroic Swashbucklers of film and literature would prefer to keep their options open and improvise rather than ponder and plan?
That would actually be cool- to get a "Martial Maneuver" ability like the Brawler for the Swashbuckler; need to Disarm? How about Reposition?
I know the designers have said there will be ways for other classes to get some of the abilities of the hybrids; this might be a cool option to provide some more versatility to the Swashbuckler on the improvising front.
I like the Charmed Life ability.
I think that Swashbuckler Weapon Training should grant more options besides Improved Critical, and have other boosts at levels 9, 13, and 17, like Dex to damage, Dex or Charisma to confirm crits, increased crit multiplier, stuff like that.
I also think Slashing Grace should be a 1st level option, with a trade-off for those who plan on using a rapier or dagger.
Also, it would be nice if there were different combat styles available, like pistol and sword, rapier and whip, quarterstaff, elven curve blade, knife fighter, knife thrower, stuff like that.
Also, maybe deed choices? Instead of automatically getting 3 per tier, you can choose 3 from 6 or 10? That way, every single swashbuckler won't be identical and predictable.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Alright, I have to raise my hand and ask a question here. Why can't the Swashbuckler simply get a straight Cha to saves bonus at level 2?Every rogue would be taking a 2-3 level swashbuckler dip?
I honestly don't see the problem with dipping a Dex-based martial class to become a better Dex-based combatant.
It's seems completely logical that dipping Gunslinger should make you better at using guns, dipping Paladins should make you better at fighting evil, dipping monk should make you better at fighting unarmed, dipping fighter should make you better at fighting and dipping SB should make you a better Dex-based class.
What makes a player stick with a class is having cool stuff at higher levels, not having poor abilities at low levels. People dip Fighter and Monk because those classes don't get a lot of cool/useful stuff compared to what they lose.
If the designers want the SB to be more than a dip class, they should give fun/useful/interesting mid and high level abilities instead of giving them a bunch of poor and mediocre low level class features.
Give them a reward for sticking with SB instead of punishing those who only take a few levels.
Its been said a few times and I think Cheaply even linked it in the other thread. The core designers(aka the group that will write this book) think that dex to damage is almost too powerful to be a MYTHIC feat so we wont be seeing it in any class(gunslinger being an exception because of all the built in firearm weirdness). All other dex to damage options are in the Golarion specific books that are overseen by someone who isn't on the core team that thinks dex to damage isn't overpowered. So dervish dance and agile get into the game allowing that trope but I bet the core.design team wish it.wasn't. Its probably not going to happen the need for other dex.to damage options have been howled about on the board and I'm pretty sure they aren't going to change their mind.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but the core designers also (apparently) think the Conjuration Wizard wasn't powerful enough in the CRB. If the Gunslinger can get Dex to damage, why not the Swashbuckler, even at the expense of Precise Strike damage if that's what it takes?
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
yeah, they can THINK that dex to damage is too powerful all they want, but it won't change that they've still failed to give me a good reason to utilize dex over str as a swashbuckler...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
DEX to damage on guns and DEX to damage on melee weapons aren't apples and apples.
Guns. Are. Terrible. Sure they are capable of targeting touch AC, but there is so much stacked against them. The awful misfire stuff, reloading, cost of ammunition. The Gunslinger essentially spends 20 levels overcoming firearms.
Excellent point, and agreed.
They also have some very big advantages in the fact that they're ranged weapons that hit touch AC.
If you want to look at it that way, the Swashbuckler et al. spends 20 levels (and a good chunk of WBL) overcoming the fact that they have to be in the enemy's face if they want to do their job. I've read good arguments that mundane melee classes should only go up to level 6, but that's an argument for Pathfinder 2e.
Dex to damage doesn't change the fact that you wouldn't be getting Dex-and-a-half for two-handing a weapon.
There is literally no good reason not to allow THE dex class to not have some way of getting Dex to damage.
(Hell, even DDN has gotten over this worn-out trope of "dex to damage is too good!" They've built "str or dex, your choice, to attack and damage" right into the core rules. Not breaking anything either.)
Dex to damage doesn't change the fact that you wouldn't be getting Dex-and-a-half for two-handing a weapon.
There is literally no good reason not to allow THE dex class to not have some way of getting Dex to damage.
Well...what about something that lets them use Dex instead of Str for damage?
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well...what about something that lets them use Dex instead of Str for damage?Dex to damage doesn't change the fact that you wouldn't be getting Dex-and-a-half for two-handing a weapon.
There is literally no good reason not to allow THE dex class to not have some way of getting Dex to damage.
That's what we're talking about. It's not even about the actual damage, it's about (a) alleviating MAD and (b) not pretending that Dervish Dance doesn't exist. I can see why they don't want to balance a class around a non-core feat, but on the other hand, anyone with the ISWG or an internet connection has access to the feat. If they decide the Swashbuckler's damage should be X, and they're not factoring in Dervish Dance, then a great many Swashbucklers in practice will have X+Dex. Not a disaster, but it would put it ahead of where they intended it. If they do factor it in, the opposite will of course be true.
Building Dex to Damage into the class still seems to me the best way to do away with this problem once and for all. Scale it to a maximum equal to the Swashbuckler's level if you want to discourage dipping — Though as we've said, people won't feel the need to dip if the class features make it worth sticking to the base class.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's what we're talking about. It's not even about the actual damage, it's about (a) alleviating MAD and (b) not pretending that Dervish Dance doesn't exist. I can see why they don't want to balance a class around a non-core feat, but on the other hand, anyone with the ISWG or an internet connection has access to the feat. If they decide the Swashbuckler's damage should be X, and they're not factoring in Dervish Dance, then a great many Swashbucklers in practice will have X+Dex.
In that case, I think we may be reaching a consensus here. Devs, I hope you're reading this. :)
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
*Failed to fix interaction with Dervish Dance (it's still the superior choice).
*Failed to fix the need for Int 13.
*Slashing Grace is a feat tax for no benefit.
A few improvements, but these 3 points are just embarrassing.
I think people are being too technical with the "Int 13" thing. The whole point of it being included in the feats like Improved Trip, etc, is to show that it is a prerequisite (which it is, considering Combat Expertise is also a prereq and requires it). It's more a case of it being redundant in those prereq entries, and less a case of "Well, Swashbuckler Finesse only subs Cha out for the Combat Expertise req, not for feats that build off that chain."
I think people are being too technical with the "Int 13" thing. The whole point of it being included in the feats like Improved Trip, etc, is to show that it is a prerequisite (which it is, considering Combat Expertise is also a prereq and requires it). It's more a case of it being redundant in those prereq entries, and less a case of "Well, Swashbuckler Finesse only subs Cha out for the Combat Expertise req, not for feats that build off that chain."
except that those redundant prerequisites are there precisely to stop unintended circumvention of this kind. obviously, this circumvention is actually intended, but it's not just splitting hairs.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not trying to sound to rude here but it would have been nice if we got some form of Dex to damage to actually playtest since we keep hearing how much more important that is then theorycrafting.. Its not like it couldn't have gotten the axe after this if it by some awe inspiring fluke proved overpowering. Maybeif we actually playtested it we'd see ourselves how exactly its overwhelming.
also, dervish dance exists... if dex to damage was going to break the game, PFS would be overrun with scimitar wielders. as it stands, DD only really dominates magus builds and that's because the class benefits inordinately from crit frequency with no additional benefit for higher crit multipliers (so the scimitar is mechanically leaps and bounds above most other weapons for both DEX and STR builds). obviously i'm not saying we need 4x crit damage on spellstrike spells (though i'm not entirely sure that would break the game either), only that some sort of benefit to high crit multiplier weapons would go a long way toward diversifying good magus builds. anyway, i digress. the point is that dex to damage would have already broken the game if giving it to a single class with a small subset of weapons (see: gunslinger and, of course, the previously mentioned DD magus example) was ever going to do that. it's essentially already BEEN playtested enough to tell us it's not going to destroy pathfinder; just let us try it on the swashbuckler.
Hell, I'd be fine if the class forced a switch to Dex-to-damage, taking away even the option of using Str for damage.
Because if ever there was a class that should do dex to damage, it was this one. And if you really wanted to be the Power-Attacking Str combatant, you probably weren't looking at the Swashbuckler anyway.
Wow... that swashbuckler / paladin multi-class is looking really attractive.