What you're essentially saying is that the Brawler only gets to feel like a hero if he's fighting one specific subset of enemiesAnd now you're being ridiculous. The brawler doesn't need awesome blow to feel like a hero (otherwise you're saying "the brawler doesn't feel like a hero until 16th level when she first gets awesome blow"). Just... stop.
I won't bother to point out the flaws in the rest of your post because you're just being ridiculous. Making ridiculous statements like "the brawler doesn't get to feel like a hero because its capstone isn't good" and "all these monsters completely invalidate a brawler's contributions to the party" doesn't help anyone.
I'm attempting to have a reasonable discussion, Mr. Reynolds. If you don't agree with what I'm saying then enlighten me as to why. Things may become more clear that way.
The listing of enemies I gave aren't that unusual. Dire animals stand out because they seem like they should be so easy - but they aren't, for the most part because of size and reach. 'Size and reach' is a continued refrain for things like giants, demons, dragons, and the like. Brawlers, like many melee characters, have to first get into position with a turn's worth of effort (with perhaps one attack at the end) and then hope first that they made it there and second that the enemy stays in easy melee reach so that the blow-trading can begin.
In a lot of cases that's just not going to happen. Dire wolves trip and then beat you when you're down. Giants, especially the smarter ones, might trip or they might just take a few steps back, soak the AoO with their hit points and then force you to spend your turn moving to get to them again and again. And that's not talking about other, more unusual classical enemies - wights, shadows, harpies, gargoyles, illusionists, necromancers, foul clerics steeped in demonic lore. All of these and more make mincemeat out of a Brawler unless he either spends...
You know what would be good here ? Some new feats.. The thing about the brawler is he doesn't get his own toys and thats cool he gets super fluid and changing access to the stuff everyone else is stuck doing forever <Or if retraining is a thing at least a while.> So what do we do here ? Feats.. Cool new feats that might not be good enough to take every time because they're situational but are good to have for other builds too. How about a feat that lets us vital strike on a charge like we could at the very very beginning ? Ot a vital strike equivalent for maneuvers that lets us trade extra attacks in a round for a +2 to +4 CMB bonus per ditched attack ? That's the cool thing about this guy is he lets you grab when you need them all those feats that when you need them you *need* them like blind-fighting but usually hate to actually write down because out of that situation it just sits there on your sheet mocking you. Thats the problem with the brawler is his power mostly comes from adapting to the situation at hand and until we see the new feats designed with his class stuff in mind we have less scope of what he can do then any other ACG guy.
If they look into helping martial maneuvers keep scaling up past 12 and make some solid feats that have martial maneuvers as a whatever action prereq to keep them from everyones hands if they dont want them there I think we're good because this guys power and his meat and potatos should be in his feats and adaptability cause thats what it feels like this guy should be about. He walks into every situation barehanded and barely armored because he always knows that he can adapt to the other guy's weakness.
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I think the size penalty to Awesome Blow is way too steep. A -2 per size category would be more reasonable but even that would be unnecessary.
Why? Because adding an extra penalty to Awesome Blow is basically giving the same penalty twice.
Bigger creatures already get a sizable bonus to CMD, that mechanic already represents how much harder it's to apply a combat maneuver against opponents larger than yourself.
I think the size penalty to Awesome Blow is way too steep. A -2 per size category would be more reasonable but even that would be unnecessary.
Why? Because adding an extra penalty to Awesome Blow is basically giving the same penalty twice.
Bigger creatures already get a sizable bonus to CMD, that mechanic already represents how much harder it's to apply a combat maneuver against opponents larger than yourself.
I gave a mention of this in my opening argument about Awesome Blow, but it definitely needed to be bolded =)
Quite honestly, I'm surprised the brawler is not proficient with shields. While I do understand that shields are generally not considered to be part of "brawling" per say, shield bash is listed as part of the "close" weapon group. I could easily see someone punching others and bashing with a spiked shield at the same time, or going in with a buckler and a dagger (or bayonet and buckler for that matter).
They are proficient with using shields as weapons (part of the close weapon group), but not for defense. So they'll get a negative to attacks based on ACP, since they aren't proficient.
However, a masterwork Buckler or Light Shield has an ACP of 0. So no effect.
Heavy shields would still give a -1, but you can get a Mithral one (for metal) or Darkwood one (for wooden), and have no ACP.
Tower shields have too big a penalty, but they aren't used with bashing, so who cares.
This is an area that I don't think is that big a concern, really.
The problem is as is manuvers are great. Well.. Not great but good enough against dudes with class levels and that's cool but an ability might not need some spit and polish is its most useful application is dealing with things that GM fiat often don't show up <The ranger has this hitch too sometimes>.. I know Paizo products always try to have a good mix of humanoids with levels but I also know a few GMs that for various different reasons are uncomfortable having PCs killing things that aren't monsters or when themes like against the dragons or against the giants are such iconic themes that every GM does it at least once. <I tried to hide mine in an ancient Celt based world VS invading formorians with flying/swimming reptile thingy mounts and allies to mix the two.>
I think the size penalty to Awesome Blow is way too steep. A -2 per size category would be more reasonable but even that would be unnecessary.
Why? Because adding an extra penalty to Awesome Blow is basically giving the same penalty twice.
Bigger creatures already get a sizable bonus to CMD, that mechanic already represents how much harder it's to apply a combat maneuver against opponents larger than yourself.
While I agree, doubling up on penalties sucks, I don't think it will come up all that often.
Well, at least for my characters. Any melee maneuvers character I've ever built has always gunned for Enlarge Person in some form or another. Low levels with a potion, and higher levels with a command word item (say a Shirt of Big Brawn or something, lol).If you are going up against big guys, and want to smack them around, it's pretty cheap to put yourself on an equal footing with the majority (most CR16+ listed earlier in this thread were Large sized).
There's already a bit of a disconnect of being able to jump kick a 5 ton creature a dozen feet, but not being able to get close to that in drag weight, lol.
"I jump kick the palet onto the wagon" says the Brawler coolie.
From the feeling I have with a lot of my responses so far, it feels like a lot of critiques could have been sussed out with actual play.
When you are put on the spot and have to come up with a response to a situation, you are going to grasp at everything at your disposal. That's something that can potentially be missed with theorycraft.
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Awesome Blow (Ex): When the Brawler performs a successful Bull Rush, the opponent takes damage as though the brawler had hit it with a wielded weapon or unarmed strike. If an obstacle prevents the completion of the opponent's move on a bull rush, the opponent and the obstacle each take that damage. The Brawler may choose not to move with the opponent, in which case the opponent falls prone at the end of his movement."
"Improved Awesome Blow: At 20th level, the brawler may perform Bull Rush maneuvers as attack actions rather than as standard actions, and motion made as part of a Bull Rush is not counted against the Brawler's movement for the turn. If an obstacle prevents the completion of the opponent's move, the opponent and the obstacle each take double the damage."
Now THAT'S AWESOME!
The visual image is very Raid: The Redemption or even The Matrix. Knock someone through a pillar and just keep pounding.
Love it.
EDIT:
THIS is the brawler. Notice the frequent use of Awesome Blow (As written by Adam)
I also want to use this video as evidence of how cool using Martial Maneuvers as a round by round ability 1/level could be awesome. notice Jaa using catch off guard multiple times, or even picking up maneuver feats.
And of course we'll have an Extra Martial Maneuvers feat to let you get extra uses per day of your class ability....
...
...What happens if you use Martial Maneuvers to gain Extra Martial Maneuvers?
The "Extra" feats are typically General Feats, so Martial Maneuvers wouldn't allow you to select it.
Ninja'd by the Lava Lamp Djinn.
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I gave a mention of this in my opening argument about Awesome Blow, but it definitely needed to be bolded =)I think the size penalty to Awesome Blow is way too steep. A -2 per size category would be more reasonable but even that would be unnecessary.
Why? Because adding an extra penalty to Awesome Blow is basically giving the same penalty twice.
Bigger creatures already get a sizable bonus to CMD, that mechanic already represents how much harder it's to apply a combat maneuver against opponents larger than yourself.
The flipside is that Awesome Blow is essentially a new combat maneuver, but lacks any way to link it with the already-extant ways to boost combat maneuvers (most of which the brawler has access to). You can't take Improved or Greater Awesome Blow for the +4 to the check, you can't select Awesome Blow for the brawler's maneuver training class ability... consider what the numbers would look like if you could add another +4 from feats and +5 from maneuver training!
Is there some way we could perhaps make a brawler's maneuver bonuses apply to Awesome Blow? That alone would close much of the gap...
I think the size penalty to Awesome Blow is way too steep. A -2 per size category would be more reasonable but even that would be unnecessary.
Why? Because adding an extra penalty to Awesome Blow is basically giving the same penalty twice.
Bigger creatures already get a sizable bonus to CMD, that mechanic already represents how much harder it's to apply a combat maneuver against opponents larger than yourself.
True.
Actually, it doesn't. Regardless of the bonus's type, multiple bonuses from the same source never stack.
Please cite your source. I've heard others allude to such a rule, but have never actually seen it. (At least not that I can recall at the time of this writing, though I admit that I vaguely recall something like that, that only applied to spells.)
Actually, it doesn't. Regardless of the bonus's type, multiple bonuses from the same source never stack.Please cite your source. I've heard others allude to such a rule, but have never actually seen it (at least not that I can recall at the time of this writing).
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9p1m
Actually, it doesn't. Regardless of the bonus's type, multiple bonuses from the same source never stack.Please cite your source. I've heard others allude to such a rule, but have never actually seen it (at least not that I can recall at the time of this writing).
Page 208 CRB top right of the page, "Bonuses without a type
always stack, unless they are from the same source."And we have precedents for that rule being applied in other places so the "only applied to spells" ship sailed.
That source doesn't seem to be laying down a blanket rule, but clarifying a specific example. It means nothing outside of that context.
Many people disagree, but this isn't the place to discuss it. Perhaps the rules forum?
Many people disagree, but this isn't the place to discuss it. Perhaps the rules forum?
This is about discussing the class, perhaps we should actually discuss the class here, subsequent discussion is also a thing.
Personally, I think the brawler only being good against a single foe kind of defeats the point of a 'brawler', or someone who participates, frequently in brawls, which are by and large affairs that involve ENTIRE ROOMS, so having the 'brawler' only be good at trashing one dude at a time strikes me as missing the point.
In addition to that, there's enough feats in the game as is, many of which are simply logical extensions of earlier feats (I'm looking at you two-weapon fighting) that serve no purpose other than to force a combatant, someone who is generally served learning a bunch of different tricks (this also makes them more entertaining to play), rather than learning one or two tricks, that they never really get better at, unless they make this major investment. Back on point: so why bloat up the game further with more 'Discipline feats' (which I could have sworn were called style feats a few books back) when they should either just be part of the combat system, or something unique like the Ranger's favored enemy?
Unless you're saying favored enemy is a magical thing somehow.
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Never thought about it before, but are up and down legal choices for awesome blow directions?
Gotta admit, uppercutting a dragon in the air would be pretty epic. Or plowing someone into the floorboards to do collision damage.
They are, but good luck upper cutting a huge dragon. That image is exactly what I'm fighting for.
Oh sure, take away my "cross the streams" last-ditch effort to save and/or destroy the universe!
Mmm. Marshmallows.
Quite honestly, I'm surprised the brawler is not proficient with shields. While I do understand that shields are generally not considered to be part of "brawling" per say, shield bash is listed as part of the "close" weapon group. I could easily see someone punching others and bashing with a spiked shield at the same time, or going in with a buckler and a dagger (or bayonet and buckler for that matter).
As shield proficiency is a combat feat, he could technically use his martial maneuvers to do that.
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All this talk about Taskmaster and shield proficiency and things made me realize something that hadn't struck me until now- that martial maneuvers allows the Brawler to copy any combat feats (provided he meets the prereqs normally or through other MMs, of course). For some reason I'd gotten it stuck in my head that he could only use the "standard" combat maneuver/unarmed combat types of feats, but being able to use any really opens up the breadth of what this class could be capable of.
"Hey, Joe- ever use one of these things afore?" Tosses Joe a pistol.
"Nope." Fires a shot from the hip, killing the bad guy.
"Sheeeoooot!"
I'm seeing a lot of possibilities with this class I hadn't seen before now.
In my defense, I hadn't really been looking at the Brawler until recently (I've been admiring some of the other toys more). That, plus the name probably gave me blinders.
(That makes me wonder, actually; if I use Martial Maneuvers to pick up Amateur Gunslinger for a minute, do I get to reselect the deed each time I imitate the feat?)
(That makes me wonder, actually; if I use Martial Maneuvers to pick up Amateur Gunslinger for a minute, do I get to reselect the deed each time I imitate the feat?)
I'd say so, in the same way that if you chose Martial Weapon Proficiency, you could select a different martial weapon each time.
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Shield Proficiency is definitely one of the feats I would be taking on a brawler, since nothing stops a brawler from using one, and you can still flurry just fine.Quite honestly, I'm surprised the brawler is not proficient with shields. While I do understand that shields are generally not considered to be part of "brawling" per say, shield bash is listed as part of the "close" weapon group. I could easily see someone punching others and bashing with a spiked shield at the same time, or going in with a buckler and a dagger (or bayonet and buckler for that matter).As shield proficiency is a combat feat, he could technically use his martial maneuvers to do that.
Probably better off taking TWD and wearing a cestus or small weapon in your offhand or using snapping turtle style. You'll keep your ac bonus that way.
(That makes me wonder, actually; if I use Martial Maneuvers to pick up Amateur Gunslinger for a minute, do I get to reselect the deed each time I imitate the feat?)I'd say so, in the same way that if you chose Martial Weapon Proficiency, you could select a different martial weapon each time.
I'm totally going to make a Cameron Hicks (Alphas) Brawler character.
Yeah, the martial maneuvers isn't restricted to specific types of combat feats, like his bonus feats are. It really does give a wider range of versatility.
I'd suspect Int 13 + Combat Expertise and Str 13 + Power Attack may end up being staples of Brawlers, as it opens up a large set of feats to use sooner with Martial Maneuvers.
I'm still not liking the delayed access to TWF feats, myself. If I wanted to build a TWFer with a full BAB class that gets bonus feats.. I'll pick up the feats myself. Getting the option to use a single weapon/unarmed for your full flurry and automatic TWF at 2nd level seems sufficient. It's a nice "more than the normal" effect, but delayed to 2nd level to prevent quick dipping of the class.
Let a Brawler pick up the rest of the feats whenever he wants/qualifies (7th w/ a character feat for ITWF, 11th with either class or character feat for GTWF).
Fill in something more for Martial Maneuvers at the levels he'd pick up his delayed access ITWF/GTWF (8th and 15th).
I mean, I'm not saying I want the Brawler to automatically get something that makes him better than a Monk at Flurry... however, the option is already there, so it feels like a waste.
Considering many campaigns go to 11th, but not as many go to 15th... it's likely most Brawlers with the Dex will pick up GTWF on their own.
I feel like I'm seeing the ninja for the first time all over again.
Yeah, the martial maneuvers isn't restricted to specific types of combat feats, like his bonus feats are. It really does give a wider range of versatility.
I'd suspect Int 13 + Combat Expertise and Str 13 + Power Attack may end up being staples of Brawlers, as it opens up a large set of feats to use sooner with Martial Maneuvers.
Yes, as I'm looking more closely at things now, it seems picking up one or two of those "gateway" feats would make a lot of sense, to expand the reach of your martial maneuvers.
I'm also thinking a mixed melee/ranged brawler would be pretty viable without being too feat intensive - just pick up Point Blank Shot, and your Dex based grappler also becomes a good sniper.
I'm totally going to make a Cameron Hicks (Alphas) Brawler character.
RIP Alphas, taken from us too soon. =(
But yeah, Martial Maneuvers is good for on the fly stuff like that. It's why it's REALLY cool and there's a lot that can be done with it. Which is what makes it so sad, IMO, that it's usable so few times a day. I guess that restriction wouldn't hurt as much if it allowed you to snag a whole Feat chain with only one usage, but taking a new use for each Feat (up to 3 at higher levels) just hurts it.
At level 10, you only have 5 uses of what is supposed to be your iconic, class defining ability. That just sucks (for the player, the ability itself is still alright), because it means you're constantly in a state of "Should I use it to get this now? Because I can only really use it to its full extent once per day. What if there's something bigger and badder I need later?" type of thinking.
If it's going to be the defining class feature, and it should be (it really is one of the coolest, thematically, things to come out of this book), it needs to be something the player shouldn't question using just because he might need it later, because the effects are so specific and likely to be tailored to a single encounter (and only last for about a single encounter anyway) that it doesn't really measure up to other, similarly limited abilities.
Smite, Judgement, Challenge, Wild Shape, all of these have roughly the same amount of uses (or actually more, depending on whether you take one Feat or three as a Brawler), but affect the encounter in a much more dramatic way. Smite is basically an encounter ender, Bane+Judgement can turn the Inquisitor into an unstoppable badass a few times a day, and Challenge can do similar for the Cavalier. Wild Shape is probably, hands down, the BEST utility class feature in the game (counting out spellcasting as a whole). And at level 10, each have 4 uses a day, only one less than the Brawler's 5...but the Brawler must limit himself to the least powerful/versatile possible usage of his ability to achieve that number, while the others have exactly two gears: Off, and Maximum Blast.
As a side note, I don't think it would be unfair to give the Brawler select access to certain General Feats through Martial Maneuvers to give him some out of combat utility boosting chances as well. Simple stuff like Skill Focus or Fleet, or on a more complex scale Betrayer (a Feat as situational as they come...which makes it a great candidate for Martial Maneuvers) can give him a solid edge in out of combat encounters.
Just realized why this is only now occurring to me; it's a change from the original playtest document (I'm looking at them side by side) which had you only able to select certain types of feats. I much prefer this one. Definitely a lot more versatility with it.
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Also disciplines that are "any combat feat, may be taken multiple times".What do we gain by doing it your way instead of the current way? Nothing. And with the current way, other classes can grab appropriate feats if they fit their classes. For example, a brawler/rogue could take Sap Adept, which is a combat feat (which brawlers get extras of) which modifies sneak attack (which a brawler doesn't get, but a brawler/rogue would). You're basically saying, "rogues don't get bonus combat feats, so why should we have combat feats which modify sneak attack?" ... which ignores that there are zillions of ways that (1) any particular rogue might get a combat feat, and (2) that there is a benefit to labeling a feat as a combat feat, even if doing so doesn't help the class that feat is written for.
In other words, not arguing for a class mechanic that actually reduces the number of available options for characters.
What I am actually proposing is that the brawler can take all the combat feats that she could've taken previously. Then she also has unique brawler-specific choices.
As to what is gained:
- greater diversity as more options are available to the brawler (both combat feats and "special" disciplines)
- a natural vehicle to present class specific options to the brawler (as opposed to feats), consider the number of rage powers available and how such a big list is implausible to offer as feats. Additionally it is a natural vehicle to offer supernatural/magical upgrades to the class (e.g. Elemental Rage rage power)
- rule locality, it is very easy to find rage power and rogue talents (etc) for their respective classes - they are all listed with their class; class-specific feats however aren't always as obvious to find
Brawler disciplines are not actually "new". It is a new name, but for a familiar class feature (rage powers, rogue talents, ninja tricks, oracle revelations, slayer talents, alchemist discoveries, magus arcana, arcanist exploit, investigator talent).
Well, after reading through this discussion and the revised Brawler, I think this class is nothing more than a trap.
For all of reasons described throughout the pages of this discussion. Just another failed attempt at reworking a failed core class. I also don't see any desire from the designers (all I see are excuses on why the Brawler can't have this or that feature to help overcome huge mechanical flaws with the class) to fix the problems with an archetype that doesn't rely on weapons or armor.
hmmm... I don't think that is a fair assessment. The brawler is a very strong front-line fighter. She's got good DPR and a fair amount of on-the-fly adaptability. Her job is not to fly or outwit a cyborg; her job is to hit people in the face with her body really well. And she does that admirably. She can definitely play in the same DPR league as the other pure non-magic martial classes. As other similar classes, she needs to rely on items and allies for exotic things (such as flying).
If I would issue a complaint against the brawler, it is that she's very un-iconic. There's not much that stands out. (Well, that is a lie, once Knockout and Awesome Blow become available, then very iconic things become possible - but that is the brawler late-game.)
Mechanically Sean mentioned that Extra Martial Maneuvers as a feat will exist. I'm concerned that this is a feat tax, as there are nowhere near enough uses per day. The only playtest responses I recall that didn't complain about the limited uses, were the ones that either didn't use it at all (due to unfavorable action economy) or those who fully refresh all stats on the brawler between every encounter.
If I would issue a complaint against the brawler, it is that she's very un-iconic. There's not much that stands out.
Precisely. I've said it before and it still rings true, I feel like I get less from a Brawler than I do from a Fighter (Brawler) with a Monk dip. It's the same thematically, and has the same or more going on mechanically in the playable levels than the Brawler does.
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Precisely. I've said it before and it still rings true, I feel like I get less from a Brawler than I do from a Fighter (Brawler) with a Monk dip. It's the same thematically, and has the same or more going on mechanically in the playable levels than the Brawler does.
If I would issue a complaint against the brawler, it is that she's very un-iconic. There's not much that stands out.
I have the same feeling.
I have the same feeling.Precisely. I've said it before and it still rings true, I feel like I get less from a Brawler than I do from a Fighter (Brawler) with a Monk dip. It's the same thematically, and has the same or more going on mechanically in the playable levels than the Brawler does.
If I would issue a complaint against the brawler, it is that she's very un-iconic. There's not much that stands out.
Me too, unfortunately. I mean, the class looks awesome at first glance, and it sounds cool, but then you really look at it and it's like "eh". It's not that it isn't balanced, I mean it seems to be as far as I can tell, but it's kind of...bland.
What about giving it special moves that recharge after a short break? A sudden burst of speed, a single high-powered attack that bypasses DR...stuff like that.
Well, after reading through this discussion and the revised Brawler, I think this class is nothing more than a trap.
For all of reasons described throughout the pages of this discussion. Just another failed attempt at reworking a failed core class. I also don't see any desire from the designers (all I see are excuses on why the Brawler can't have this or that feature to help overcome huge mechanical flaws with the class) to fix the problems with an archetype that doesn't rely on weapons or armor.
hmmm... I don't think that is a fair assessment. The brawler is a very strong front-line fighter. She's got good DPR and a fair amount of on-the-fly adaptability. Her job is not to fly or outwit a cyborg; her job is to hit people in the face with her body really well. And she does that admirably. She can definitely play in the same DPR league as the other pure non-magic martial classes. As other similar classes, she needs to rely on items and allies for exotic things (such as flying).
If I would issue a complaint against the brawler, it is that she's very un-iconic. There's not much that stands out. (Well, that is a lie, once Knockout and Awesome Blow become available, then very iconic things become possible - but that is the brawler late-game.)
I'm going to have to agree with Cpt. Cain, DPR's a trap, it's something you can point at and say 'see? they don't suck' when DPR is only a small part of the problem. The real problem is a system that has a mechanic to determine how durable a person is (hit points) and has mechanics that outright bypass it, as well as having other mechanics that can stop someone dead in their tracks, for extended periods of time, at the same bloody level, and to exacerbate issues, they can do it to huge groups of people. Then there's skills. I'm not even going to start there.
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I have the same feeling.Precisely. I've said it before and it still rings true, I feel like I get less from a Brawler than I do from a Fighter (Brawler) with a Monk dip. It's the same thematically, and has the same or more going on mechanically in the playable levels than the Brawler does.
If I would issue a complaint against the brawler, it is that she's very un-iconic. There's not much that stands out.
Me too, unfortunately. I mean, the class looks awesome at first glance, and it sounds cool, but then you really look at it and it's like "eh". It's not that it isn't balanced, I mean it seems to be as far as I can tell, but it's kind of...bland.
What about giving it special moves that recharge after a short break? A sudden burst of speed, a single high-powered attack that bypasses DR...stuff like that.
It needs something to make it pop. Kockout is great but comes WAY too late. I don't see a reason why this isn't a level 1 ability with a short duration (1 round).
I think Martial Maneuvers is what is holding it back, being able to give yourself a feat when you need it is cool, but the extremely limited uses with a fixed duration doesn't make it as strong as it sounds. I would personally scrap it and come up with something else.
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I've taken a look at the brawler today, and it looks interesting...and disappointing too.
Interesting, because it's an unarmed fighting class, with some new features. It's got some great features, good flexibility, and some opportunities for customization.
Disappointing because as a combatant it's a considerable improvement on the core monk, while losing out on the core monk's flavour and mystique - yet inexplicably keeping some of the mystic powers (just what is the justification for Brawler's Strike? It's basically ki-strike, gained a little later but with greater flexibility and hence greater usefulness). However, everything "interesting" about the monk has been sucked out of this class. It's a solid performer, but it's bland...yet still better than the monk.
Mechanically, the brawler has better offence, better defence, almost equal skills, less peripheral abilities of limited utility, and one worse save than the monk - not a bad trade-off. What he does lack mechanically is an attack-booster. I would suggest reducing the unarmed damage scaling a little, toss the "brawlers strike" out (it really makes no sense, and he'll use an amulet of mighty fists anyway, and if he gets it why is the martial artist deprived it - although I guess the MA has arguably a better feature) and instead give the brawler a cut-down weapon training - say at 5th, 11th, & 17th levels, applying only to the close weapon group. Every other full-BAB combat class has an attack booster: barbarian rage, paladin smite, ranger favoured enemy, and fighter's weapon training; for the brawler to stand in their company they need something too.
However, I really have to say this now...
, please, PLEASE, can you stop giving us semi-monks that are better than the monk while losing the monk's greatest feature, his flavour, and just fix the monk! There are scores of threads with suggestions on how to do so, even play-tests of some of them. The original monk NEEDS fixing, and putting out classes like this one just highlight that fact clearer and clearer...and Advanced Class Guide is a great opportunity for you to do this.
OK, I've said my piece, thank you for listening.
@Dabbler: I disagree on the brawler having better defense. The monk in my playtests and builds always has better defenses (with the possible exception of Flat AC). From my stand-point the brawler has better HP and better damage - that's essentially the only point where it stands out from the monk. (It also has a much bigger feat pool for its bonus feats and of course Martial Maneuvers.)
As a side thought, I don't think it is reasonable to ask for the brawler to be a less unarmed damaging class than the monk. It's essentially a bonafide unarmed specialist. The monk does many other things as well, but the brawler just goes around punching and kicking really hard.
Martial Maneuvers using up multiple uses when activating at level 6 and 10 is bad (at level 10 a Brawler has 5 uses, but uses 3 of them with one activation, um...no).
Yep. I think I can see the rationale for why it's working the way it is currently, but the class suffers for it.
I suppose they're thinking a combat feat is better than a judgement (2 of which are strictly better versions of Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec), since Judgements are a swift action, increase with level, last an entire encoutner regardless of duration, and you gain additional ones without increasing the action or burning more uses. Judgements advance at 1/3 levels instead of 1/2. But if you double that after level 8 (Second Judgement) it's technically more at that point, and just gets worse after level 16.
It could be argued that 1 minute duration is better than being limited to an encounter, but I wouldn't want to make that case, especially not for a class called the Brawler. If anyone's abilities should be combat tied, it's theirs.
EDIT: OH! Forgot a big one. And a judgement can swap in the MIDDLE OF COMBAT without requiring additional uses.