In my game, I impose a strict 15 second time limit to at least start declaring your action. If you take too long, your character must hold his action until after the next character acts.
I also display the initiative order for all to see and announce who's next after the active player, so there's no excuse not knowing when your turn will come.
I have the same pet peeve as you. I have known many players who seem almost paralyzed by too many options and just sit there staring blankly at the miniatures for a dreadfully long time. I would have loved to speed those players up.
On the other hand, we're all friends at my table and I hate to put friends on the spot like that.
I did consider a less-punishing alternative, but never implemented it. Instead of losing actions as you propose, I would prefer to impose a Delay action on the player - if he's not fast enough (30 seconds sounds fine to declare his action, even if it takes longer to calculate the particulars), then his character Delays and the next player or monster gets to go. If the player is ready by the time that player/monster finishes acting, then the player's Delay ends there, if not, he Delays until after the next combatant. And so on.
This way, he never really loses an action, he just drops down the initiative list. I guess, if he does it often enough, he could "lap" himself and end up back where he started, which would mean that he lost an action, but that would take multiple Delay actions to achieve.
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I never understood that, people have enough time to ponder about their options and the situation while the other characters and monsters have their turn. Even if some options fall flat because something changed on the battlefield, they at least shouldn't have a hard time to figure out quickly what to do on their turn...
...but some players I knew and know seem to phase out until their turn comes up, then they start to ponder what to do, even hit the books and then take 5 minutes or more... to take then the most face-palming action possible.
There is however an idea to counter that.
At the beginning of every normal round, make people announce in inverted order (lowest initiative first) what they intend to do in the current situation - just let them announce, not discuss their decisions. You can even allow perception checks or tell the players outright what their enemies are apparently doing. Although this is a bit "meta", the players with high initiative are now able to adapt to the slower characters. This doesn't prevent one player with high initiative to run where the wizards fireball will go down, but in that case the wizard has to reconsider what he is going to do on his turn. Also with this trick, you force the players to think earlier about what they are going to do.
I try to remember my players that their characters right into a battle, where arrows fly, swords were swung and it's more about action and reaction instead of thinking.
I always try to embrace a more intuitive gameplay, so if a player do this I also do it with the NPCs (charging into the player, bull rush tries without impr. bull rush etc.), I hate the 2-min planned tactical turn, where everything is optimized...
The principle behind tactical tourn based combat is exactly having all the time you need to plan a tactic. That's the whole purpose behind turns.
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We do something similar with our DM. If he takes too long to answer a question we infract him. Three infractions and he is subject to a major upbraiding. 7 major upbraidings and it all escalates to a sort of unpleasantness best left off the official boards.
It's an ugly business, but it keeps the man behind the screen in check and on the ball, and that all leads to good efficient play, which is the reason we all get together in the first place.
I tend to agree with the original poster. The purpose of the entire game is to have fun. It is not fun watching someone take five minutes to decide what to do. I get it that some characters have so many actions to take that their turn will take a little longer. To me this means that player needs to be more prepared simply as a courtesy to other players.
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I used to have this problem. I took forever trying to make sure I did the right thing. What helped me get over it was playing board games. I found a group on meetup.com that played strategy and board games near me, and two main things happened. One was I played a game of BSG with someone even slower than me, which showed me how it felt, and the second was I just decided it didn't matter what I did, if I made a mistake so what, I'd get another chance next round, or next character. It's just a game and no one will care. The quick, iterative nature of board games helped.
It's not a matter of preparation, since I'd prepare, have all my abilities before me, and a choice of action, but then the person before me would do something that made me change my mind. So, don't assume the person is simply not prepared, or didn't think about it. It could be confidence, it could be a lot of things. Also keep in mind the person taking a long time is ALSO not having fun. And it should be fun for everyone.
So maybe you can try playing other short games if people are interested. Or maybe just reassure the people that their choices don't matter and no one will mind them making mistakes.
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The principle behind tactical tourn based combat is exactly having all the time you need to plan a tactic. That's the whole purpose behind turns.
Yes.... BUT.... the tactical turn last 6 seconds!
Unless your character possess a godlike genius or some sort of magic item/spell there is no way he could analyse and come up with the best possible action in every situation, therefore the need for a time limit.In my game it's 15 seconds per player and over time we all see the difference and everyone is happy with it.
And when you think about it 15 seconds is almost like 3 more time to think then you what you have to act!
Its considerate to make a choice quickly, and if you can't decide on the "perfect" action then you really should simply decide on something and go with it, even if its delay or total-defense.
I don't believe that someone has the right to spend five minutes each turn. I would get frustrated quickly.
i use a strict code of conduct if you dont know what to do when you are up you have to get a smack to the head with the baseballbat or you lose your turn!
There is a 5 second rule recommended in the CRB. 5 minutes is absolutely ridiculous. It's a game, it's supposed to be fun. Waiting 5 minutes for someone to make a decision is not fun for everyone else at the table.
Personally, my rule is that if you don't know what your character is doing when your turn comes up, the PC delays his/her action until the player is ready.
There are exceptions, of course, such as when a player is asking questions about the environment, rules clarifications (or quick judgment call from me if I'm not certain of the rule at the moment), etc. or new players who need help figuring things out.
I don't think a strict time limit is a good idea, and I think taking actions away is a positively horrible idea. At the point where it looks like the player is taking too long (a subjective measurement), ask him if he'd like to Delay while he thinks.
I try to limit my player to 30 seconds, anything more the get the dazed condition.
I can't imagine my players sitting around for 5 minutes waiting for one of them to decide what to do. They would pummel him senseless!
I would suggest that everyone (or at least, the guy with decision paralysis) be required to have a 'default' action in combat that they will take if they aren't ready when their turn comes up. For instance, a wizard might have "5' Step from melee and cast Acid Orb." If they aren't ready with an action (or a question about their action) when it is their turn, that's what they do.
I wouldn't give them ANY time to think about it. Not 15 seconds. They can start thinking about their turn IMMEDIATELY after their last turn. They should have quite some time right there, since there are presumably 3+ other players and the DM taking enemy actions during that time. I mean, if there turn comes up and a monster JUST stymied their plans, I wouldn't mind a player saying, "Well, I WAS going to do x, but...". I would give someone some time then, but otherwise? You knew who was at bat already, so you should have been warming up, slugger.
Instead of penalising players for being slow reward them .....
This.
I've always found that people respond better to positive performance management.
Also, knowone intends to be slow. Berti Blackfoot had a good point about being prepared for the round but other player actions changing Berti's mind.
Instead of penalising players for being slow reward them for being decisive. Say + 1 to a d20 for anyone that commits to an action in 5 seconds.
This would include the bad guys .....
I can get behind rewarding player for quick thinking, but, at my table, the consequences of taking too long too act aren't intended to punish the player (as you say, there's no percentage in that), they're intended to keep combat moving.
When one player starts taking 2 minutes to plan they're action, the rest of my players get bored. Out come the smart phones and rule books, conversations start at the other end of the table, and when the next player's turn comes up I have to get their attention first and they end up taking even longer. Before I know it, we're running 20-30 minute combat rounds, something I just won't tolerate anymore.
It doesn't sound like anyone else is experiencing the permutation my table-top game often has; people side-talking and ignoring the game until their turn. And only after saying "hey, yeh, the star trek movie was great, but it's your turn," about five times, do these particular players wake up and start considering what they'll do for their action.
Augh! And of course, the 2 worst offenders are the GMs wife and best friend from work.
If they were trying, but weren't sure what to do, I'd have an easier time with it. But the constant gabbing and ignoring the game makes it rough for the 3 players who really do want to play.
I have that problem in my game, Apocalypso.
But again, we're all friends at my table, and most of us don't see each other during the week, so game day is when we catch up. And with 6 players, rounds are kinda long anyway. So with all that, I'm somewhat tolerant of side-conversations.
And Star Trek is great; can't punish them for that...
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It doesn't sound like anyone else is experiencing the permutation my table-top game often has; people side-talking and ignoring the game until their turn. And only after saying "hey, yeh, the star trek movie was great, but it's your turn," about five times, do these particular players wake up and start considering what they'll do for their action.
Kick these morons out of your game... there is always some nice people waiting for a chance to get in touch with a gaming group!
I did kick 2 peoples out of my game over the years actualy, people that i knew for long on top of that!
In the process i found out 1 awsome player and eventualy a friend!
Trust me, put on these stell cap boots and make some room for interested and respectful player!
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The principle behind tactical tourn based combat is exactly having all the time you need to plan a tactic. That's the whole purpose behind turns.Yes.... BUT.... the tactical turn last 6 seconds!
Unless your character possess a godlike genius or some sort of magic item/spell there is no way he could analyse and come up with the best possible action in every situation, therefore the need for a time limit.In my game it's 15 seconds per player and over time we all see the difference and everyone is happy with it.
And when you think about it 15 seconds is almost like 3 more time to think then you what you have to act!
Except that you are imagining how confusing things would be if you and your players were in a fight.
But you are not in a life and death situation. Your characters are. You know, these highly professional adventurers who saved each others' lives so often and that know each other's abilities and tactics in full detail for having discussed and rehearsed them in downtime.
Such a character does not need 30 seconds to wait for his partner to charge the enemy, thereby creating a distraction for a better chance at hitting with his attack. However, the player just might need this time to decide, after taking into account all the actions of the other characters, that his PC will ready to hit when he has flanking conditions.
If some of your players usually take a long time to decide while others do it faster, ask the latter to coach the former and share any trick they use to speed up the game. It is better than just penalize the slow guy.
Now, people who do not pay attention to the game are disruptive. But that is another topic.
This is one of the reasons I stick to fighter.
"Hey Dub it's your tu-"
"I trip him."
"Really, no 5 foot steps? No charging the guy across the board because he's killing your wizard?"
"If the wizards close enough to get stabbed on round 1, he's better off dead, regardless."
"... He's tripped."
And they say being one of the most basic classes doesn't have it's upsides.
But no, in all seriousness, I impose the same 30 second rule, especially at society games. Oh good god, you get some people that show up to those that sit around for 5 minutes, and they're Fighters. 30 seconds is more than enough for anyone, and initiative is easy to remember, especially when you announce who's going when. No excuse, really.