I'm running an Adventure Path, and one of my players decided to play a Tetori Monk. Frankly, I'm disgusted Paizo allowed this class into print, it's horribly designed and sucks the fun out of every encounter.
Every combat involves the Monk running into the room at the most powerful creature and rolling a ridiculously high grapple check against middling CMDs. 90% of the time, he succeeds and the creature he's grappling is effectively out of the fight. At this point, my options are:
- Attack the monk. I might hit, or might not (negatives to hit while grappled) but then on the next round the monk will simply pin the monster, and then there's no chance to escape.
- Escape the grapple. Uses my standard action, and then the monk just grapples again on the next round. Useless.
- Cast a spell. With the changes to concentration I have a pretty good chance to just lose the spell. Even if it goes off, if it doesn't incapacitate the monk then the monk just pins the creature the next round.
Since I'm running an adventure path, I don't want to redesign every single encounter because of a single player. But as it stands, every encounter that features a "boss" monster is over within a single round.
Are there tactics I'm missing to deal with this?
If there is more than two creatures in the combat, one can attack the monk. Swarms are good too.
Flight will help, as will reach weapons. Minions to block the path to the boss will help too. Traps are an option. Contingency spells, dimension door, creatures with natural attacks that can use them while in grapple.
Don't nerf everything, but it wouldn't be out of line to adjust some encounters.
Depending on level, freedom of movement negates grappling altogether. Fire shield or other effects that cause damage if you attack/grapple someone can make grappling hazardous. Oozes, fire elementals, incorporeal creature, some types of undead with touch attacks, swarms....
Flying things are very hard to grapple unless the grappler can also fly. BBEGs behind a barrier of some sort (cage of iron bars, portcullis, wall spell) can be annoying.
A grappling fighter -- say a bodyguard -- can turn the tables on the monk.
Creatures with natural attacks can use them on foes who are grappling them.
What are the monk's weak points? He has to have some.
Some of these suggestions are missing the point. I'm running an Adventure Path. I don't want to have to redesign the encounters to deal with a single pathologically broken class. Especially since I'd essentially be rewriting every single encounter.
Is there a way to deal with the Tetori without going to that extreme? Or is the Tetori monk just that broken?
What level are you playing? I've not looked into the Tetori myself yet, but as a grapple focused player I know that CMD's ramp up pretty high and pretty quickly.
Include a Black Pudding or equivalent type creature.
As Paladin suggested, traps are a good thing. Readied actions...most boss characters are alerted to the PC's presence before combat.
Which particular AP are you running? When you are grappled you are only at a -2 for most things...so you could alter the items carried by the boss to include a potion of Bull's strength or Fly as was mentioned earlier. Take notice where the boss is placed on the map before the encounter starts...Make sure to be out of reach of the Tetori's first round, if possible. Depending on the AP it is not unreasonable for the BBEG to know exactly who is coming and in what order...and as soon as they are alerted it is also not unreasonable that they have something prepared for them as they step in.
Boss should have some kind of minion pet with the bite+grab combo. Envelop and constrict are good traits for those creatures to have against the Tetori as well.
***EDIT***
Also, tactics in general are overlooked for the BBEG. Anything with an Int above 7 would use pretty normal PC tactics...anything with an Int over 10 or 11 would be using some creative tactics.
Ok, which Adventure Path are you running? Although as far as not wanting to have to redesign the encounters, at least somewhat, basically means you have to tell your players "Here are your characters, don't bother making ones up." Because no published adventure is going to cover every possibility the PC's come up with.
What adventure path are you running that the main guy can just be grappled all the time? I've never encountered an ap that has things set up that way.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The tetori is a class that is really good at one thing, like a barbarian using rage and a two handed weapon. It's not broken.
Honestly, a pure fighter devoted to grappling can do much the same thing. You just don't see as many of them. So some of this isn't the Tetori mink, it's the vulnerability to grappling in general.
It sounds like you want tactical solutions rather than complete rewrites of encounters, which is fine, but I don't think you'll be able to completely avoid some changes to BBEGs statblocks. Adding a bodyguard creature/trip.fighter/Meatshield isn't out of line, or giving a boss a potion of fly, or letting a wizard type create an illusion of his presence over a pit (monk charges,monk grapples mist, monk plummets 120 feet).
Tactics amount to:
1) stay away from the grappler. Difficult with monk movement speeds, but are there obstacles the boss can use or create? It's is the simplest if you can do it.
2) have someone else intercept the monk -- does the boss have any guards? If not, he's got other problems as any 4 on 1 combat is going to end badly. Add a guard, have one of the existing guards attack the monk, have a familar use the BBEG's wand to do something. Or givetheguy a reach weapon so the monk has to at least eat an AoO during the run in. Readied actions can do something similar.
3) defeat the grapple -- may need statblock changes or other forms of preparation, but a potion of gaseous form, or a wand of grease, or just dumping oil over themselves, will all make them slipperier and harder to grab. Various forms of magic help, as does preparation - does the BBEG know the PCs are coming? Can he do anything to get ready for them?
4) fight back in the grapple -- again, sometimes requiring statblock changes. But, say, a fighter type could have armor spikes, or quickdraw a dagger, or have fire resistance up and drag the monk into the local bonfire. A wizard type pretty much needs Still Spell or verbal-only spells -- even a low-level one like command can sometimes do the job.
And those are your tactical options...
What level are you playing? I've not looked into the Tetori myself yet, but as a grapple focused player I know that CMD's ramp up pretty high and pretty quickly.
They're only 4th level so far. But I'm not sure about CMD ramping up sufficiently quickly; Tetori monks use monk level instead of BAB in combat maneuver checks. Plus his Snapping Turtle stance allows him to make grapple checks if an enemy misses him in combat, and at 8th level he'll gain the Grab special ability.
Which particular AP are you running? When you are grappled you are only at a -2 for most things...so you could alter the items carried by the boss to include a potion of Bull's strength or Fly as was mentioned earlier. Take notice where the boss is placed on the map before the encounter starts...Make sure to be out of reach of the Tetori's first round, if possible. Depending on the AP it is not unreasonable for the BBEG to know exactly who is coming and in what order...and as soon as they are alerted it is also not unreasonable that they have something prepared for them as they step in.
I'm running Shattered Star. So most rooms are kind of small, and there's not much room for flying around.
Also, tactics in general are overlooked for the BBEG. Anything with an Int above 7 would use pretty normal PC tactics...anything with an Int over 10 or 11 would be using some creative tactics.
Well, that's what I'm trying to figure out. What tactics should I be using? What tactics are effective?
I'm running an Adventure Path, and one of my players decided to play a Tetori Monk. Frankly, I'm disgusted Paizo allowed this class into print, it's horribly designed and sucks the fun out of every encounter.
Every combat involves the Monk running into the room at the most powerful creature and rolling a ridiculously high grapple check against middling CMDs. 90% of the time, he succeeds and the creature he's grappling is effectively out of the fight. At this point, my options are:
- Attack the monk. I might hit, or might not (negatives to hit while grappled) but then on the next round the monk will simply pin the monster, and then there's no chance to escape.
- Escape the grapple. Uses my standard action, and then the monk just grapples again on the next round. Useless.
- Cast a spell. With the changes to concentration I have a pretty good chance to just lose the spell. Even if it goes off, if it doesn't incapacitate the monk then the monk just pins the creature the next round.
Since I'm running an adventure path, I don't want to redesign every single encounter because of a single player. But as it stands, every encounter that features a "boss" monster is over within a single round.
Are there tactics I'm missing to deal with this?
Here is the biggest glaring weakness of the Tetori build: they are cruise missiles. Yes they can take one target out of combat almost immediately but they also prevent themselves from being very useful. They damage they can do is pretty low for monk builds and grappling is not always a good idea. Introduce some dangerous terrain or situations, make a better grappler, do not focus all of the CR in a single opponent.
|
In the APG there's a "barbed vest"-- something you can wear over light armor that will deal piercing damage to anything that tries to swallow you. For some reason, it damages anyone that attacks you with a natural or unarmed attack as well, but doesn't work against grappling. As the GM, you could rule that it does work against grappling-- common sense says it probably should anyway.
Your player may protest about you tweaking the rules, but he's likely ot protest more about the fact that suddenly every enemy worth grappling is now wearing a vest covered in fishhooks.
Then again, the vest only does 1 damage per round, so the Tetori might just ignore it altogether.
At low level a lot of the anti grapple standard arsenal (eg freedom of movement) is unavailable, but keep those sorts of things in mind for later.
With small rooms, I'd recommend barriers. Add a grille of iron bars to the map -- think the classic jail cell in a Western. There's a door in the cage wall, but it's locked and the BBEG inside has the key. A fighter type could use a reach weapon to attack from beyond the bars where the monk can't reach him. A caster or archer could fire spells or arrows, or buff e minion. A illusionary wall can separate the PCs from the boss long enough for him to do something
Someone with a reach weapon can try to trip the attacker coming in. A readied action or spell can maybe intercept him.
A wall of minions between their boss and the players. Level 1 warriors with shields will do quite well.
The fundamental problem is that BBEGs by themselves are rather limited in their options. (This is true regardless of grapplers -- a big fighter with a two-handed weapon and Step Up can make almost any lone boss cry badly. Action economy just ices the cake.)
OK, I'll have to check my Shattered Star books, but seriously, start looking at CMD's of creatures in the Bestiary at CR 5. Large Air Elemental is CMD 31. At CR 5. That's a cherry picked example, but believe me, CMD's ramp up a lot quicker than CMB's do...mainly because it draws on a whole 'nother stat to calc (CMD = 10 + Str Mod + Dex Mod + Size Mod while CMB is 10 + Str Mod (or Dex with Agile Maneuvers feat) + Size Mod). Once you get into levels where the creatures have more or no legs, they get even harder.
CR 4 has the Harpy, which can fly naturally and can make a good mook.
But, tactics wise, think like a PC...only for the bad guys. Does the Big Bad Spellcaster stand there and just sling spells? No, they usually have something nasty set up upon entering, plus 2 or 3 guards, plus some sort of contingency spell. In fact, contingency is great for setting up to go off on a grapple.
Invisibility.
Depending on the race of the Tetori, have the combat in a dark place where only Dark (maybe even low-light) vision can see without wasting time on casting a spell or lighting a torch or drawing and activating a sunrod.
Blink.
Caltrops.
Terrain height, placement on the map, obstacles.
Force wall. Or Ice wall, or orb of fire...etc.
Illusions...covering a pit, illusion of the BBEG standing over there when in fact they are over here, etc.
Lock the door. Seriously easy way to become alerted if they aren't already.
This is just what I can think of off the top of my head...I'll post more once I look at the AP book.
At low level a lot of the anti grapple standard arsenal (eg freedom of movement) is unavailable, but keep those sorts of things in mind for later.
The Tetori eventually gets the ability to negate Freedom of Movement spells, as well as negating any magical bonuses to escape a grapple. That ability becomes a Dimensional Anchor at 13th level, too.
With small rooms, I'd recommend barriers. Add a grille of iron bars to the map -- think the classic jail cell in a Western.
Well, one of the things I like about the adventure path is how well the dungeon is designed. There's not a lot of random "dungeon architecture for dungeon's architecture's sake". Throwing bars around is going to mess with that.
The fundamental problem is that BBEGs by themselves are rather limited in their options. (This is true regardless of grapplers -- a big fighter with a two-handed weapon and Step Up can make almost any lone boss cry badly. Action economy just ices the cake.)
That may be true. It just feels like every single battle, no matter what, involves the grappler running in and grappling, and me rolling a couple failed grapple checks to escape.
What adventure path are you running that the main guy can just be grappled all the time? I've never encountered an ap that has things set up that way.
Shattered Star. The party fought a couple of larger groups, but the vast majority of the encounters on the lower levels of the first dungeon involve 2-3 creatures at the most.
How about a social solution? Parties of adventurers always make noise, so it's easy enough to give the opponents a situation where they automatically have initiative, or at least a good chance at surprise. Have one of them immediately latch onto the squishy in the group, and initiate dialog. "Surrender or the cute one dies." Even better if you do it with an enemy grappler, just to drive the point home.
Mind, the above assumes you have already explained to the monk player that he's ruining the game. Don't pull that stunt without plenty of prior warning.
Atarlost has a good point. Single monster encounters run into the exact same problems with Enchantment specialists and other disablers. I recall playing (in a different campaign some years ago, mind) a Diplomacy / Enchantment specialist cleric that would have the same effect. Tongues, Calm Emotion and no trouble beating the Dip check for hostile creatures - encounter very soon after I got to initiative. I've not done things like that since.
Seconded that it's not the Tetori archetype that's the problem but just dedicated grapplers in general--Tetori gives some amazing fancy stuff later like negating freedom of movement and lots of cool tricks, but it doesn't give a higher bonus to grappling than a raging barbarian with the same strength would have, and a maneuver master monk could eventually make multiple grapple checks instantly in a flurry of maneuvers.
As for Shattered Star, I'm playing through it right now (just finished Asylum Stone last week), and honestly a lot of those encounters in book 1 are just plain easy for just about any party. Our group used social skills and trickery to get past everything on the top level without fighting anyone except the leader, and for the lower levels, we had absolutely no issues until the
Also the derro magister probably would have been challenging if she had been able to save against the enchantress--the Shriezyx are immune to mind-affecting.
But don't fear--in part 2, they get to fight the most overpowered monster for its CR in all Pathfinder, and in part 3 they get to fight 3 of them!
Atarlost has a good point. Single monster encounters run into the exact same problems with Enchantment specialists and other disablers. I recall playing (in a different campaign some years ago, mind) a Diplomacy / Enchantment specialist cleric that would have the same effect. Tongues, Calm Emotion and no trouble beating the Dip check for hostile creatures - encounter very soon after I got to initiative. I've not done things like that since.
This came in while I was typing--my group I'm playing in has an enchantment specialist sorceress in our Shattered Star group with very high DCs (I'm sure they are scarier than the tetori's CMB). Surprisingly, there's enough SR (and she always rolls low on them) and immune to mind-affecting that she hasn't trivialized too many of the encounters, but some of the ones she did were major end-of-adventure bosses. I think actually grappling turns out to be more of a lockdown in Book 1 than enchantment, but it might be close. Either way, most of the encounters in Book 1 are pretty easy.
I think the problem is with action denial builds. This can be anything from a tripper, a caster who spams hold person or blindness, or in this case, a super grapple master.
The game is set up so that monsters must be chipped away to defeat. For most groups the process of reducing a monster is a fun experience. Once you introduce something that bypasses this process, you take much of the fun away. You didn't fight the monsters, you executed them.
There are many ways to solve this problem. You can change most of the encounters so that monsters have high CMD's, and just happen to be greased, or somehow not subject to grapples or whatever. After the first few times this happens things are going to feel contrived and the player will justifiably feel singled out. He may decide to start a new character who specializes in a different form of action denial - and there are many forms worse then CMB checks. The best way to solve this is to sit down with the group and tell them that you feel things are going to just be a repetitive series of pinnings, and that you don't feel that GM'ing that will be much fun. They may argue, but if you explain that your decision was based on things in the AP that they don't know, they can't argue against that. It will help smooth things if you explain that the PC's build is just too damn good. Explain that you want the combats to be different and exciting, and that abilities that essentially bypass combat take that fun away.
Before you do this, figure out what things you don't enjoy in the game. I find as a GM that if I don't like something as a player (such as my PC getting coup de graced) that I won't enjoy having it done to the monsters I control, in almost every combat, every session, for 16 levels.
PS While the single BBEG encounter is a classic, it is really BAD encounter design. I ALWAYS try to throw a little fodder into the combat, or better yet, have it be the BBETwins or BBEFamily or whatever.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Honestly, the only real solution will be to add more enemies so that the other players will have things to fight.
Yes, I know that you want to run the adventure path as is. Unfortunately, that isn't always possible if you want to challenge your players and keep things interesting. Heck, in both serpent's skull and rise of the runelords I had to buff things continually and even combine encounters together to keep things interesting.
In one word: grease.
As soon as your Tetori monk gets a little of fame, bad guys ready for him. It won't cripple him but will make his life a little bit more interesting.
A monk that shines? Isn't that a good thing? Normaly you only read about how bad they are around here.
I heard some very good answers to your question, CNB. But I would not overdo it. It's somehow the point of the class to be good at grappling. There will come a time in the AP when the monk player will have a hard time doing his thing.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A monk that shines? Isn't that a good thing? Normaly you only read about how bad they are around here.
I heard some very good answers to your question, CNB. But I would not overdo it. It's somehow the point of the class to be good at grappling. There will come a time in the AP when the monk player will have a hard time doing his thing.
The problem is not that the monk is doing well, it's that there's several bored players and a frustrated GM. The game should meet a minimum standard of fun for everyone.
This is probably a worthless suggestion, but make sure you're running the grapple rules correctly.
Reread this link, and pay attention to the grapple flow chart.
Note the editor's notes:
There are some contradictions between the various rules on grappling. What is correct?
To sum up the correct rules:
-Grappling does not deny you your Dex bonus to AC, whether you are the grappler or the target.
-A grappled creature can still make a full attack.
-Being pinned does not make you flat-footed, but you are denied your Dex bonus.
Switch some feats around in the stat blocks if you want, there are a lot of useless feats on monsters, feel free to give them defensive combat training and dodge to up their CMD by a couple. Remember that a grapple is an attack roll, so anything that inhibits it inhibits the grappler, concealment, blur, fatigue, penalties to attack from all sorts of things.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I dunno. If you're having problems with one of the weakest classes in the game, what is gonna happen when you get to the mid levels and you have a full spellcaster, aka a tier one class?
He's kicking butt now, later he'll be hwaaaay underpowered . What happens when he opposes a huge crtiter with high str? The one trick monk is squished.
The same could just as easily happen with a spellcaster with a high dc and save or suck spells. Except he just gets better, the monk gets worse.
I dunno, at such a low level I could waste time with the Monk grappling a creature, or just have the barbarian walk up and kill it outright with a hit (or two at most).
Low level creatures are pretty brittle, and frankly 1 or 2 v a party is going to be a horribly rapid kerb-stomp.
Seconded that it's not the Tetori archetype that's the problem but just dedicated grapplers in general[..]
Rogue Eidolon hit the nail on the head. Monsters have such a wide variation in possible CMDs that it makes it difficult to balance an all-or-nothing effect like grappling/pinning.
As others have said, the issue will tend to get less severe as they go up in levels. I don't know that AP so I don't know the exact opponents, but it will tend in that direction.
- Illusions so the BBEG and guards all look identical. Kind of a large scale mirror image. Yes, after one starts giving orders or casting spells, they can figure it out.
- Illusion of BBEG (who is invisible) sitting on a trap.
- Fighter grappler who grabs the monk and throws him into the bonfire. While gaurds close and lock the doors leaving the monk to deal with the BBEG on his on for a few rounds until the others can get into the room.
- Spell Gorums Armor or similar things.
- Magus cast true strike, then trip with a whip from 15' away.
No, you don't have to re-write every single encounter. You are not trying to 'beat' the player. Just every once in a while have it be something so that his strategy doesn't work quite as well or puts him at risk.
Also, along the lines of "Think like a PC." After having been grappled a few too many times. All of my PC's now carry around at least 1 vial of alchemical grease.
That may be true. It just feels like every single battle, no matter what, involves the grappler running in and grappling, and me rolling a couple failed grapple checks to escape.
So stop trying to escape the grapple and beat the hell out of the monk. Full-attacks can be used while in a grapple, and if the problem is the monk grappling monsters most of those have pretty nasty full attack routines.
If it's such a problem for you and for your group simply ask the player to change his character.
|
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
As handsome and beautiful Tetori, Bruno fears little...but Bruno still have fear.
Things Bruno fears:
-Stupid flying enemy and Bruno all out of fly potions.
-Stupid invisible enemy and Bruno have no elixir of spirit sight.
-Stupid monster that creates, or fights in, darkness.
-Stupid monster with reach...Bruno not worried about monster's grapple CMD, Bruno no want to eat huge AOO damage on way in.
-Stupid monster that full round attack Bruno in grapple--not only just because of damage but because of status effects like ability drain.
-Stupid caster who beats Bruno initiative (and potentially has mook meatshields). Worse yet, caster who knows party is coming and is readied.
-Stupid negative energy channeling clerics. Channel Energy is supernatural ability that can be used in grapple without provoking or concentration check. Quick Channel negative energy clerics are the worst...
-STUPID DUM DUM IDIOT INCORPOREAL MONSTERS WHO ARE DUM DUM STUPID IDIOT HEADS.
Big thing Bruno fears:
-Monsters will ignore Bruno and beat up pals. Bruno can only do so much. If busy grappling one (or two) monsters, other monsters free to hurt Bruno weaker friends.
hmmmmm...maybe Bruno have lots fear...
When you sign on as DM, you also sign on as doing some prep work. You should be reading the installment of the AP you're running ahead of time. If it's a dungeon, it takes an hour to read through the rooms, see what's in there, get an idea of how the party might go through it, and what monsters are in there. You, unlike the players, have the advantage of knowing their abilities and can alter the encounter ahead of time. The Bestiary is super easy to use since it lists things by CR in the back, so you can look at the CR table, scan through something that looks thematically appropriate to your dungeon, and just add that monster into any given encounter. That's minimum work with no need to re-stat NPCs, and you can run it right out of the book (or pdf, or SRD, etc).
Also, the players don't have the maps to the dungeons, so you're allowed to make rooms 10'-15' bigger when you set up the map to include more monsters, give the NPCs more room to maneuver, etc.
Also, it's poor form to punish a player for building a character. This same character could have made an old age elven witch and started at level 1 with a 22 Int, taken Sleep Hex, and thrown around DC 17 Will save-or-dies right off the bat. (sure it's not technically save or die, but it sets up coup-de-graces real fast). Or you could be dealing with a sleep-monster witch like that AND a tetori monk at the same time. It's not the player's fault for designing the encounters as they are in the adventure.
Other food for thought: The players are SUPPOSED to shine. They are heroes. They can do heroic things. They CAN lockdown the hardest part of an encounter right off the bat. They SHOULD enjoy being so awesome that "normal" encounters are easy.
If the BBEG encounters are all designed for 1 BBEG vs. the entire party, it doesn't matter what the party build is, they are going to win anyway out of action economy. 1 BBEG can't keep up with 4 player actions in a straight melee contest, which is why most BBEG's have henchman, contingency plans, traps, constructs, summoned monsters, or the ability to take some PCs out of the fight (read: Hold Person spells, Stinking Cloud for nauseated condition, Confusion, paralysis, Slow spell, Finger of Death, etc).
Also, "classic" whittle-down-each-other's-hitpoints for 7+ rounds is boring. If it were fun, there wouldn't be so many feats & items designed to let characters do more damage, have higher DC's for save-or-die spells, or let you do other nifty things in combat.
Out of curiosity, is the entire party bored with combat due to the Tetori Monk, or is it just you as the GM? The GM's approach towards combat always affects the players, so if you're bored and aren't showing interest, the other players won't be interested either. If this is the case, there's nothing wrong with taking a day off, canceling a game session, or meeting with your group to do something else like catch a movie or play a card game. Staying fresh as a GM is important, and everyone might enjoy the game more after a short time off.
Does the big bad that the tetori is grappling have mooks? If so, why aren't they wailing away at the monk? The whole point of mooks is to protect the big bad!
Whenever I made a grappler focus concept, he always got creamed in anything other than one-on-one combats because the enemies outside the grapple would just take advantage of his reduced AC and pound him into hamburger.
If you follow suit your monk can maintain the grapple and eat a ton of damage from the mooks, or let go and defend himself properly, in which case you get a more traditional combat.
Problem is, most of the new grappling archtypes no longer take penalties from grappling things, heck they can even make attacks of opportunity. Not that I consider that a problem, just makes it harder on mooks. The fighter I play in my kingmaker game has dr 14/- in a grapple, makes it hard on guys with sticks to help out.
