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Creating magical item for the party + small fee on the work = players uprorar?


Advice

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Shadow Lodge

Dabbler wrote:

Make more sense now?

no, both this last post and the previous post have big gaping flaws.

for one hitting hard dosent require a feat. of the out of combat services you listed... not one of them require a feat to be spent to do them. do them better maybe, but they are free class features that require no investment. survival is nice but not necessary. i dont know about you , buy i always have ways of feeding my characters, wheather it be via spells or skills i never rely on other people for those types of things.

second a wizard does not require those 5th levels slots to be metamagic feats. a wizard can be fully functional with the 10 base feats + 5 item creation feats. so taking item creation feats do not lower your combat effectiveness.

basically what it boils down to is you feel that everyone should do everything for free when it comes to player characters. if this was a valid point of view you would see this in real life in every instance ... which you dont. now if you're taking the stance "this is a game! not real life" then i say how does getting a 40% discount effect your ability to be happy playing that game?

what, it doesnt? thought so.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Failed my will save again :)

Dabbler wrote:

Actually I don't see how the comparison is skewed at all. The player has a choice about what feat he or she takes, but whatever feat they take it's assumed that they do so to increase their effectiveness, or everyone's effectiveness.

If the fighter takes Power Attack, it's a feat that benefits him, yes, but it also benefits everyone in the party by finishing off foes faster before they can hurt anyone else. Any feat that improves anyone's performance is contributing, and most of them do.

Crafting feats have the potential to improve the performance of everyone too, and taking a crafting feat means the person has NOT taken a feat that could directly benefit the party come crunch-time. Instead they have taken a feat that can help provide a kind of long-term buff to the party. Now if they still expect the party to help protect their ass in a fight when they are investing in out-of-combat feats instead of feats to make themselves more effective, the least they can do is provide the party with the gear to do so at cost.

Charging makes sense if the fighter charges for every foe downed, if the cleric charges for heals, etc.

Hmmm, you seem to be saying that all feats have to contribute to the party in some way, shape or form. I have a bit of a problem with that, as it feels like you are saying that other players at the table have a right to decide what feats another player will or will not take.

If a PC decided to take Skill Focus Craft Poetry, you would object because it doesn't contribute to the party? Even if it fits in with the PC's background and character concept?

Dabbler wrote:

Other than:

Healing
restoration spells
long duration buff spells
bringing back the dead spells
Survival to provide food
other crafting skills that can provide shelter and other resources theparty may need

... I can't think of any

My apologies, I have always considered that spells cast just prior and just after combat to be part of the combat, so healing, restorations, raising the dead (material costs out of the party pool) etc. have always been linked to combat in my mind. I did not consider that others may have a different viewpoint on this matter.

Besides the post battle spells, you have long duration buffs and survival skills. Wizard crafters also cast long duration buffs for the party and if you start charging them for the other buffs (and there are not many that come to mind), then what would you consider a reasonable price?

I have acknowledged that if the other party members are using their skills to keep the wizard fed and secure, then charging would not be considered appropriate (to me at least). But unless I am mistaken, this is not the case that the OP is talking about.

Playing devils advocate a bit here. So, are you saying that the wizard crafter should be charging for teleports, overland flight spells, any safe campsite spells (rope trick, secure shelter, etc..)

And if the crafter is the healer, what then? what would the abilities that you would charge for, besides possible survival skills?

Dabbler wrote:
Then again, if he wants to make extra cash, nothing is stopping him from crafting items and selling them at full price to NPCs.

So, if the crafter instead took the skill focus for poetry instead of the crafting feat, and spent the time making and selling poetry (and for argument's sake, made the same amount of gold), you would have no problem with that, even if it cost your PC 50% more gold?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
eleclipse wrote:

Mistwalker is soooo right i just can't express how much he is with words.

Sadly Richard Leonhart is totally right too, i suggested the thing yesterday on our forum; you can't belive what a mess this became in such a small time. It's totally not worth it (of course in my case, since i want to keep playing with this group of usually calm and funny friends).

Again, thanks a lot to all for the advices, it really help to see this much different views on a thing.

Glad I could help.

Funny thing is in the groups that I play with, the crafter doesn't have to request extra gold, as all those who want a custom item, throw in a bit extra for the crafter's time and effort, often more than the 5% that you were asking for.

Different groups, different practices.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Dabbler wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:
Special forces groups, which seem a lot like adventuring parties, do save each other's lives and have their teammates back in and out of combat. But if one of them is skilled in carpentry, none of the rest of the team would expect/demand that the carpenter spends days or months doing carpentry upgrades (customs shelves, dining room table, etc..) during everyone's downtime. Come over and help paint, or fix something, sure, but usually there is a payment of somekind (like free pizza and beer after the painting job is done).

OK, instead of carpentry, read gunsmith (that would be the equivelant of crafting magic gear). And because he's doing his gunsmithing, he isn't training with the team so much, and in scrapes they have to work harder to carry him through it (that's the equivelant of spending feats on crafting rather than on combat). I'd say using his gunsmithing skills to improve their weapons so that they can help keep him alive for free is the least he can do (the equivelant being making the items at cost).

Make more sense now?

Well, it would seem that you are moving the goal posts.

There was no indication that the rest of the PCs were out training (and gaining no additional XP) while the crafter was playing with his guns

I'll run with your example, but move the goal post back a bit, still training with the group. The gunsmith, on his own time, plays with weapons, tinkering with them. You are saying that instead of spending time with spouse, kids, family, watching movies, sports etc.. they have to spend time in the basement, for longer and longer periods of time as the PCs careers move forward, modifying and tinkering with everyone's else's weapons. While the other PCs are spending time with their spouses, kids, etc...

No, doesn't make a lot more sense.

Not every choice that a PC makes has to be related to combat or group benefits.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
J3Carlisle wrote:

I agree that because it costs you a feat, 10% is not outrageous. explain this out of character, and maybe your fellow players will understand, if not, well its a game, figure out what will be more fun for you

EDIT: and the group

The Fighter who's defending you is also using abilities that "cost" him a feat or more. So it's not an iron clad argument. Everybody in a group spends resources in defining the way you aid the group. You just decided to spend that feat in crafting when it could have been metamagic or something that aided your own personal saves.

Either way this has now gone beyond the game into group drama, and it's as a group you folk need to resolve this.

It becomes an issue with groups like this because they feel the WBL balance sliding towards crafters when the crafter starts charging fees on them. Whether it's logical from an character or rp standpoint is irrelevant, they now see it as an end-sum game where you're "winning" and they're "losing".

I can see why PFS banned item crafting hearing stories like this.

Taldor

wraithstrike wrote:

I understand, but many groups put up with such things to "keep the peace". I think the social contract of the OP's group needs to be reexamined. Some groups even allow PvP if it seems reasonable. Other groups would never accept it.

I personally think the 10% idea is cool especially since in KM the characters don't necessarily know each other at the beginning. If I was the OP I would just trade the feat out, or not craft anything for them. It is really not much different than a friend fixing your car in real life. I rather pay him at a discounted price than go to some autoshop, and pay full price.

Excellent analogy.

You would buy the parts and probably give your friend something to pay for his time.

You don't pay your buddy to block shots during your hockey game, or block a tackler in the football game. That is what they are there for.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mistwalker wrote:
Well, it would seem that you are moving the goal posts.

In what way? He chose to spend is feats on crafting skills in an adventureing party and he is presumably still going adventuring.

Mistwalker wrote:
There was no indication that the rest of the PCs were out training (and gaining no additional XP) while the crafter was playing with his guns

Training is the equivelant of gaining feats in the example you gave. Stop trying to obfuscate away from the issue.

Mistwalker wrote:
'll run with your example, but move the goal post back a bit, still training with the group. The gunsmith, on his own time, plays with weapons, tinkering with them.

The mage spends his feat on Crafting rather than something combat effective, with you so far. Down time really isn't relevant, is it? That's why it is down time.

Mistwalker wrote:
You are saying that instead of spending time with spouse, kids, family, watching movies, sports etc.. they have to spend time in the basement, for longer and longer periods of time as the PCs careers move forward, modifying and tinkering with everyone's else's weapons. While the other PCs are spending time with their spouses, kids, etc...

I'm sorry, do the PCs have spouses and other things to spend time doing that are not for the benefit of the party as a whole? I mean in Kingmaker, this is usually kingdom building which benefits everyone.

Mistwalker wrote:
No, doesn't make a lot more sense.

Well no, you moved the goalposts clear into another playing field, walking right past the point and off some place.

Mistwalker wrote:
Not every choice that a PC makes has to be related to combat or group benefits.

No it isn't, I grant you. Those that are usable for the benefit of the group the character is expected to use for the benefit of the group, in general. Taking the crafting feats to make money is fine. Taking Power Attack to chop logs is also fine - but do you see the fighter charging the rest of the party for him to use Power Attack on the enemy?

No, I thought not. It's in the fighter's best interests to ensure that enemy goes down fast. It's in the crafter's best interest to make sure those guarding his butt have the best gear to do so. In terms of being an Abadaran, consider the equipment an investment in future looting prospects.


It is all about in-group and out-group.
By saying that you wants to take a profit from the other characters one is basically saying that one is no longer part of the communal group effort, but only in it for the money. That is why there is a strong reaction; it is like making dinner for some friends and then presenting them with a bill for the time and effort one took to make the dinner. I for one would end any friendship with such a person.

Keep in mind that most money come from the same source, so it would not be uncalled for the rest of the group to cut the hirelings share of the loot.

I would say that it really is quite simple; if doing services that benefit the group as whole (which you will reap indirect benefits) one do not charge, but it is ok if it is a for another characters private venture (such as the magical pot-still for the Dwarfs whisky enterprise) it is alright to charge.

Shadow Lodge

Korpen wrote:

It is all about in-group and out-group.

By saying that you wants to take a profit from the other characters one is basically saying that one is no longer part of the communal group effort, but only in it for the money. That is why there is a strong reaction; it is like making dinner for some friends and then presenting them with a bill for the time and effort one took to make the dinner. I for one would end any friendship with such a person.

Keep in mind that most money come from the same source, so it would not be uncalled for the rest of the group to cut the hirelings share of the loot.

I would say that it really is quite simple; if doing services that benefit the group as whole (which you will reap indirect benefits) one do not charge, but it is ok if it is a for another characters private venture (such as the magical pot-still for the Dwarfs whisky enterprise) it is alright to charge.

no its more like you ask your friend to help you move, then dont compensate him for his time. he , the player who is crafting, should in that instance not talk to you ever again.

im a big guy, so everyone uses me to move. i tell them there better be an all you can eat pizza and beer buffet at the end of this move or else.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TheSideKick wrote:
im a big guy, so everyone uses me to move. i tell them there better be an all you can eat pizza and beer buffet at the end of this move or else.

Out of curiosity, would you still ask that of somebody who stood between you and an axe-wielding maniac while you were helpless, suffering grievous wounds in order to save your life?


Korpen wrote:

It is all about in-group and out-group.

By saying that you wants to take a profit from the other characters one is basically saying that one is no longer part of the communal group effort, but only in it for the money. That is why there is a strong reaction; it is like making dinner for some friends and then presenting them with a bill for the time and effort one took to make the dinner. I for one would end any friendship with such a person.

Since everyone is making dumb analogies...

It's not like charging them for the dinner. It's like objecting when they feel like they are entitled to access your wine cellar just because you invited them over for dinner.

When you get into roleplaing the characters, chances are that not everything they do outside of active adventuring revolves around the other members of the group.


OilHorse wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

I understand, but many groups put up with such things to "keep the peace". I think the social contract of the OP's group needs to be reexamined. Some groups even allow PvP if it seems reasonable. Other groups would never accept it.

I personally think the 10% idea is cool especially since in KM the characters don't necessarily know each other at the beginning. If I was the OP I would just trade the feat out, or not craft anything for them. It is really not much different than a friend fixing your car in real life. I rather pay him at a discounted price than go to some autoshop, and pay full price.

Excellent analogy.

You would buy the parts and probably give your friend something to pay for his time.

It works better you extend it a bit; His car broke down while on a road trip to the continent, and you were one of the passengers. Basically it is in your interest that the car works as well as possible.

Cheliax

Korpen wrote:

It is all about in-group and out-group.

By saying that you wants to take a profit from the other characters one is basically saying that one is no longer part of the communal group effort, but only in it for the money. That is why there is a strong reaction; it is like making dinner for some friends and then presenting them with a bill for the time and effort one took to make the dinner. I for one would end any friendship with such a person.

I would argue that it is more like spending a couple of days painting your house, then a friend asking you to then spend a few more days painting their house for them - and only offering to pay for the paint.


Dabbler wrote:
TheSideKick wrote:
im a big guy, so everyone uses me to move. i tell them there better be an all you can eat pizza and beer buffet at the end of this move or else.
Out of curiosity, would you still ask that of somebody who stood between you and an axe-wielding maniac while you were helpless, suffering grievous wounds in order to save your life?

Since you put it that way, as a correctional officer, I had taken part in several actions - none involving axes, but other weapons were present - alongside coworkers that did help me with a move. It was pretty clear that they expected compensation, and I wouldn't have even considered not offering it.


Korpen wrote:
OilHorse wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

I understand, but many groups put up with such things to "keep the peace". I think the social contract of the OP's group needs to be reexamined. Some groups even allow PvP if it seems reasonable. Other groups would never accept it.

I personally think the 10% idea is cool especially since in KM the characters don't necessarily know each other at the beginning. If I was the OP I would just trade the feat out, or not craft anything for them. It is really not much different than a friend fixing your car in real life. I rather pay him at a discounted price than go to some autoshop, and pay full price.

Excellent analogy.

You would buy the parts and probably give your friend something to pay for his time.

It works better you extend it a bit; His car broke down while on a road trip to the continent, and you were one of the passengers. Basically it is in your interest that the car works as well as possible.

I thought about this too, and for a normally this is what I would use since the caster makes his own life easier by helping the party if he was taking crafting feats anyway.

For the RP situation with the OP I think my post fits better though. Of course I am also assuming Abadar represents charging money or exchanging services as a way to worship him. If he would not support such things then that is an error on my part for my last post.

Shadow Lodge

Dabbler wrote:
TheSideKick wrote:
im a big guy, so everyone uses me to move. i tell them there better be an all you can eat pizza and beer buffet at the end of this move or else.
Out of curiosity, would you still ask that of somebody who stood between you and an axe-wielding maniac while you were helpless, suffering grievous wounds in order to save your life?

taking metagaming out of the picture, the 40% discount is me saying "thanks you for saving my life" because had i not know you i would be charging you 50k more gold. now lets assume that my wizard isnt as helpless as said situation would describe. my character saves the fighter 9/10 combats, contributing more over all, well everything to the battles.

would you still feel entitled make that statement?

would you still feel entitled to that extra 10% off?

would you assume that just because you run up in melee that you deserve to have something that requires me to use an extreme amount of time and effort to accomplish, without giving me what is essentually a tip?

my BIGGEST issue with your arguement is that you are METAGAMING!!!!! your character would NEVER KNOW THAT IM CHARGING YOU 60% UNLESS I TOLD YOU. so if youre going to metagame get the f!$% out of here, and ill help you off the table if youre going to make an issue of it as a player. how you can feel justified to argue based on metagaming is beyond me.


amethal wrote:
Korpen wrote:

It is all about in-group and out-group.

By saying that you wants to take a profit from the other characters one is basically saying that one is no longer part of the communal group effort, but only in it for the money. That is why there is a strong reaction; it is like making dinner for some friends and then presenting them with a bill for the time and effort one took to make the dinner. I for one would end any friendship with such a person.

I would argue that it is more like spending a couple of days painting your house, then a friend asking you to then spend a few more days painting their house for them - and only offering to pay for the paint.

That is an incorrect analogy, as in the “paint the house” analogy there is no difference to you whether or not the house is painted, while a mage do benefit from being part of a stronger party.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
OilHorse wrote:


Excellent analogy.

You would buy the parts and probably give your friend something to pay for his time.

You don't pay your buddy to block shots during your hockey game, or block a tackler in the football game. That is what they are there for.

The difference here is that this is a player issue. And the game world being abstracted from the real world, there's really not that much difference in an emotional sense between blocking a creature and building equipment for the players. Trying to analogize the difference between the two for in-character responses won't really cut it. And there are a lot of gaming groups for whom investing a feat in it isn't sufficient justification either. You sink or swim as a group and individual PCs should not enrich themselves based on services rendered to improve the overall survivability of the group.

The OP broke the unspoken rule of the group. He should apologize and tell them he didn't realize it would be an issue. He should explain why he did it and why it's in character for a priest of Abadar to do it. With that in mind, particularly if that 10% over cost is NOT being added to that character's own share but tithed away to the church, they might agree it's good role playing for the campaign and accept it.

Cheliax

Korpen wrote:
amethal wrote:
Korpen wrote:

It is all about in-group and out-group.

By saying that you wants to take a profit from the other characters one is basically saying that one is no longer part of the communal group effort, but only in it for the money. That is why there is a strong reaction; it is like making dinner for some friends and then presenting them with a bill for the time and effort one took to make the dinner. I for one would end any friendship with such a person.

I would argue that it is more like spending a couple of days painting your house, then a friend asking you to then spend a few more days painting their house for them - and only offering to pay for the paint.

That is an incorrect analogy, as in the “paint the house” analogy there is no difference to you whether or not the house is painted, while a mage do benefit from being part of a stronger party.

I was simply offering a better analogy than yours. I didn't claim it was perfect

However, how is the party stronger when the fighter has the 5% gold rather than the mage having it?

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
amethal wrote:


However, how is the party stronger when the fighter has the 5% gold rather than the mage having it?

The party is stronger for not having an element of built in player stress or antagonistic feelings. Is it an in character answer? No, but but it's not a totally in character problem either. Fact is the players are upset because they see their wealth funneling to another player. The justifications don't matter, they see a player "winning" at their expense.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TheSideKick wrote:
my BIGGEST issue with your arguement is that you are METAGAMING!!!!! your character would NEVER KNOW THAT IM CHARGING YOU 60% UNLESS I TOLD YOU. so if youre going to metagame get the f@+% out of here, and ill help you off the table if youre going to make an issue of it as a player. how you can feel justified to argue based on metagaming is beyond me.

You are metagaming when you set the price. Metagaming happens a lot, usually when PCs follow plot hooks and the like, or ask for specific items their characters could not possibly know about. The whole mechanic for crafting relies on metagaming.

You know WHY metagaming happens? Because it makes the game run smoother so you can get role-playing done and not spend entire sessions chasing your tale doing nothing but bicker and wander off in different directions.

Bottom line is the crafter is trying to turn a profit out of something that already benefits him indirectly.

amethal wrote:
However, how is the party stronger when the fighter has the 5% gold rather than the mage having it?

Because he spends it on better armour/weapon/stat enhancers/cure potions he pours down the neck of the dying caster who made him his shiny new sword when they got crit'd?


eleclipse wrote:
So, i have a crafting wizard and we're playing kingmaker, we just hitted lvl 5 and started building the kingdom.

Good times, lots of opportunities for crafting.

eleclipse wrote:
I'm a LN mage follower of Abadar, the other party member are a paladin a LG oracle, a NG inquisitor and a N druid.

Gotta watch out for those LN Wizards. They write everything down!

eleclipse wrote:
I decided to add a 10% fee on the creation cost when crafting item for the party (this mean that a belt of +2 str will cost them 2200 instead of 2000, which is still a lot better than 4000); this caused an unexpected reaction on the other players (not pg, players).

They were expecting you to make them stuff at cost. You're thinking that even though they're your friends, you still want to get paid. The problem here is that those are both reasonable assumptions.

I'd tell 'em that the 10% is subject to situation; when y'all are flush with cash, then it's cost+10%. However when the chips are down and the need is high, you'll waive the fee.

Cheliax

LazarX wrote:
amethal wrote:


However, how is the party stronger when the fighter has the 5% gold rather than the mage having it?

The party is stronger for not having an element of built in player stress or antagonistic feelings. Is it an in character answer? No, but but it's not a totally in character problem either. Fact is the players are upset because they see their wealth funneling to another player. The justifications don't matter, they see a player "winning" at their expense.

That's perfectly true, but is not anything I am interested in discussing as I don't know any of the people involved.

Shadow Lodge

Dabbler wrote:
TheSideKick wrote:
my BIGGEST issue with your arguement is that you are METAGAMING!!!!! your character would NEVER KNOW THAT IM CHARGING YOU 60% UNLESS I TOLD YOU. so if youre going to metagame get the f@+% out of here, and ill help you off the table if youre going to make an issue of it as a player. how you can feel justified to argue based on metagaming is beyond me.

You are metagaming when you set the price. Metagaming happens a lot, usually when PCs follow plot hooks and the like, or ask for specific items their characters could not possibly know about. The whole mechanic for crafting relies on metagaming.

You know WHY metagaming happens? Because it makes the game run smoother so you can get role-playing done and not spend entire sessions chasing your tale doing nothing but bicker and wander off in different directions.

Bottom line is the crafter is trying to turn a profit out of something that already benefits him indirectly.

how exactly is a character with an intelligence score of 17 (170 IQ) be unable to understand that a +10 long sword in the stores goes for 200k, he makes it for 100k, and adds 10% to the price metagaming? its not!

what is meta gaming is the player looking in the book comming to the realization that the item in question only costs the caster 100k to make and is being charged 10% more. while this would be ok in the game world, the player knowing the mechanics of the game feels CHEATED so he gets all pissy. <--------------- thats meta gaming.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
amethal wrote:
LazarX wrote:
amethal wrote:


However, how is the party stronger when the fighter has the 5% gold rather than the mage having it?

The party is stronger for not having an element of built in player stress or antagonistic feelings. Is it an in character answer? No, but but it's not a totally in character problem either. Fact is the players are upset because they see their wealth funneling to another player. The justifications don't matter, they see a player "winning" at their expense.
That's perfectly true, but is not anything I am interested in discussing as I don't know any of the people involved.

Then there isn't anything worthwhile for you to add. You can argue game mechanics, or economics until you're blue in the face. When it comes down to brass tacks, this isn't a game mechanic or economics issue, it's a player(s) issue.

Fact is the other players aren't happy about one player making a profit off of them. It's a player issue to resolve. Not something to take to a messageboard looking for validation of a chosen approach.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

This is mostly in response to eleclipse's original post. There have been excellent arguments for both sides since that went up, but I just wanted to add my two cents.

As a LN character, and a follower of Abadar, it is perfectly reasonable for your character to charge a nominal fee for magic item creation.

Particularly as the party goes up in levels, magic item creation is a _vast_ time sink, during which your character essentially can't go out and do other things (like effectively participate in government, since this is a Kingmaker game).

I would also use the same argument to suggest that a character who takes a magic item creation feat is not obligated to use it for the benefit of any other character. ie. The fighter might want that +5 longsword for 25000gp instead of 50000gp, but I'm the one that has to spend the next 50 days creating it. Their discounted price isn't worth my time, etc.

That said, groups vary, and the meta-gaming argument is not an invalid one. There are certainly players I've played with that assume any party resource can be used by anyone. Sometimes it is okay to bend or ignore in-game concerns, depending on the make up of the player group.

I think, (and this applies in any situation where trade or barter might occur between characters), that it is important to set some ground rules. I'll use one of my own past characters as an example.

Xebbidiah was an item-creation focused cleric of a merchant god. I was last to join the party, and his in-game situation reflected this. He had been hired by the rest of the party under the following conditions of employment.

1. Base pay was 1/6th of adventuring spoils
2. Included with base pay was combat participation, healing and other normal daily spell use (expensive focus components subject to negotiation) using any spell-completion or spell-trigger items owned by other characters or the party on their behalf, skill use, and other general adventuring/mercenary duties.
3. Commissioned item creation and/or purchase from his existing stock of items at 60% of book value.

Overall, the party was pretty satisfied by this, and I made sure there were few negative surprises. Xebbidiah was happy to extend credit if a party member didn't have cash or barter, or forgive debts if someone did him a favour. He made sure to encourage other party members in business ventures as well.

The party knew what to expect from him, so there weren't any surprises. It sounds like part of your group's issue is that they weren't there to be an in-party economy. It is certainly worth more in-game discussion, as Kingmaker is a great campaign for this sort of dealing. Maybe let them know that political favours are also an accepted form of currency to Abadar's faithful


Achilles wrote:
Does the fighter charge you to intercept that ogre that's coming at you? Does the cleric charge you for cures? Does the rogue steal from you? Are you in fact, merely being greedy?

How would the wizard know if the rogue is stealing from him? In all of the games that i play, rogues 'find' things all the time and just drop it in their pack. If they dont specifically tell us that they 'found' it, then in character we have no idea and must treat it as such.

To this point, unless you have another arcane caster, technically the wizard is the only one that would know what the cost is to create these items.

my 2

BC

Cheliax

Dabbler wrote:
amethal wrote:
However, how is the party stronger when the fighter has the 5% gold rather than the mage having it?
Because he spends it on better armour/weapon/stat enhancers/cure potions he pours down the neck of the dying caster who made him his shiny new sword when they got crit'd?

Well, if we are inventing situations, how about if the caster didn't get critted, because he spent the 5% on a pearl of power and was able to save himself?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

This is a major reason why I said this argument can't be resolved by invoking game mechanics. Like it or not, this is one of those things that have to be solved using that category of skills that gamers are infamous in sucking at.

People to people interaction and relationship type skills. And I'm not talking about those written on a character sheet.

Cheliax

LazarX wrote:

Then there isn't anything worthwhile for you to add. You can argue game mechanics, or economics until you're blue in the face. When it comes down to brass tacks, this isn't a game mechanic or economics issue, it's a player(s) issue.

Fact is the other players aren't happy about one player making a profit off of them. It's a player issue to resolve. Not something to take to a messageboard looking for validation of a chosen approach.

I am interested in discussing the general principle of whether it is ok for those who take crafting feats to charge for using them.

Otherwise this thread can be settled in two seconds.

"I'm pissing off my friends. Am I being a jerk?"
"No"
"Should I stop doing it?"
"Yes"


I had no idea that so many folk run adventuring parties as a collective instead of individuals. Or that so many people don't compensate their friends for assistance. Expecting sizeable friends/family discounts, yes. Being upset when weeks of labor are't offered as a gift, abusive.

Coworker wants a new laptop so they can be more effective, raising the effectiveness of our group. I benefit indirectly, but still let them know how much my discounted labor is worth, and they can decide if they want to take my deal or learn how to do it themself so they can just pay cost.

My friend's national guard unit got home. They all pitched in to make minor repairs and cleaning at their places, because they're tight like that. One of them wanted to make a snazzy gaming room for them to use, and another gave him a price on parts and labor to make a geek chic style table.

I've got a friend that likes to cook. He occasionally make meals for us for cos, because we're friends. However, that doesn't mean I can expect him to donate his time to catering a big dinner party for me, even if he gets to take the leftovers home. I would expect to pay him for his work. (Not that I wouldn't take it as a gift if offered if you're reading this :)

EDIT: +1 to amethal

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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As an aside, time may not be as much a constraint in Kingmaker, but as a wizard you are sacrificing time in crafting that you can use class abilities for.

As an example, if the GM allows independent research, you are sacrificing time to craft when you could be reseaching. Also, assuming that the 'free spells' the wizard gets* are limited, the only way to access other spells is via scrolls or others spellbooks. That 'surcharge' could be justified as allowing the player to a) buy scrolls, b) commission another wizard to research the spell for you or c) buy 'gently used spellbooks'.

What are the non-crafting characters doing in the downtime? Sure some of them might have profesion or craft skills, but there might be one or two (hello cleric, fighter, monk) who don't have anything better to do.

If *they* had chosen resource allocation to have crafting feats, then they'd benefit from the down time too. As the wizard is now spending his time for his party members, I could see asking for 'a little something' to compensate for what else he could be doing.

The car analogy is actually pretty good. You're asking your friend the auto-mechanic (wizard) to put a new fuel injection system and high intensity headlights (+1 and keen enchantment) when he could be adding new shocks and breaks to his own car (improving his spellbook). PAying him in pizza and beer (10% surcharge) seems quite generous.

When you're driving downtown (adventuring) you're all relying on the car, but you'd be relying on the same car even if you hadn't had your friend do the work. In fact, because you paid him in pizza and beer (surcharge) rather than go to Bob's Autoshop (pay full price) you've been able to get a CD player instead of an 8-track in the car too (the 40% difference you saved) So everyone benefits.

*

Spoiler:
I've in the past, restricted all casters to PHB only in my 2e/3.x days, requring research or purchase to get spells out of supliments. I can't be alone.


Cult of Vorg wrote:
I had no idea that so many folk run adventuring parties as a collective instead of individuals.

In several decades of gaming I have yet to meet a group who didn't.

So yeah, I expect cost...and would expect to do it at cost too.

Everyone has their job to do.


Matthew Morris wrote:
Sure some of them might have profesion or craft skills, but there might be one or two (hello cleric, fighter, monk) who don't have anything better to do.

Whaaaat....?

All three of those guys would be fairly busy I would imagine.

Unless your GM is either:

Running a beer and pretzels campaign.

Not grasping character roles in a 'living and robust' campaign.

Cheliax

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Let me just add to my player here...

I was more than happy to empower items for my adventuring companions. My surcharge was penalties to will saves 'hard coded' into the items against my own psionics.

But then some of my companions had made it very clear they were not to be trusted.

-Shadrach of Ket. :-)

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Shifty wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
Sure some of them might have profesion or craft skills, but there might be one or two (hello cleric, fighter, monk) who don't have anything better to do.

Whaaaat....?

All three of those guys would be fairly busy I would imagine.

Unless your GM is either:

Running a beer and pretzels campaign.

Not grasping character roles in a 'living and robust' campaign.

Such as?

Preaching maybe? Or drinking beer and heating pretzels?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
You may have just unintentionally pulled a jerk move. My best advice is to apologize, and let it be known that it was unintentional that you acted like in that way.

I personally disagree. Yes, you get healing in combat but you also give buffs in combat (or whatever spells you use). Magic items that you make for yourself will indirectly help the group. So you could just make magic items for yourself and use them to support the group during fights. You are making something for them. This is a significant investment of your time and resources (feats) into somthing that is primarily for them. Are they making something for you that costs them a significant investment? Or are they wanting something for nothing. A nominal fee is quite reasonable. { Note: if I was only occasionally making a minor thing, I would not charge. }

Are you asking the fighter and cleric to follow you personally around all the during down time (ignoring anything else they might want to do) to be your personal body guard and medic?

But many parties don't see it this way.

Think of it like this. IRL, if my co-worker Matilda asks me to come over and help her put her new gas grill together. It is a small amount of time, will help interpersonal relations in the office, and I'm more likely to get my forms processed in a timely manner. However; if she then asks me to change the brakes on her car, unclog the dryer vent, fix the mower so she can start it, see if I can get the AC to stop making that noise, look over her taxes, etc... She is out of luck unless she is going to pay me to do them. Yes, I probably can figure out how to do all of them, but why would I without some recompense?
Heck last year my brother asked all of us to help him move and fix up the house so he could sell it. He supplied alot of pizza and munchies and a pretty significant volume of beer and got all of us a souvineer form the stat he is moving to. And that was perfectly reasonable and expected. When you have even friends or family do something major for you you at least give them a little something. Co-workers or associates should be able to expect something more.

If the party wants you to be their magic item slave and won't cough up any recompense. In my opinion, they are being the jerks. I would ask the GM to let me rebuild the char with no item creation feats.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

We're in Serpent's Skull right now, and the only way to survive and advance our gear is to have a magic item crafter. Our spellcaster took the crafting feats and we personally don't charge extra for the items, but the queue became so long for making items we had to have a second character take the crafting feats, then two other characters (cohorts) take the cooperative crafting feats so they can help make them faster.
We don't charge extra, but we did believe that making items was too cheap and actually added a small percentage to the creation cost itself.

Qadira

If they want to skip the fee you could already be working on an item for your self and make them wait, mean but priorities are changed with cash.

It's not like you charge for haste, invis, fly, infernal healing, remove curse, any spells with expensive focus (you probably took the hit right), identifying magic items, making knowledge checks, being hit when the melee fail, or charge when you have to save them when they do dumb things.

So crafting instead of pulling another job so others can work at the orphanage or protect the king, which I am sure they are rewarded for. I don't see how anyone can argue. It's like arguing that you are a jerk for not taking a combat feat.

Crafting is non adventuring time, they party doesn't get a percentage of what the characters wife should be charging as a whore, house maker, cook, nanny. He shouldnt pry into what you do on your own time.

Edit: in any case, it's not a big dea for a player to wave the fee. Especially since the party is probably your main source of income and you don't actually have a business on the side.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Dabbler wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:
Well, it would seem that you are moving the goal posts.

In what way? He chose to spend is feats on crafting skills in an adventureing party and he is presumably still going adventuring.

Mistwalker wrote:
There was no indication that the rest of the PCs were out training (and gaining no additional XP) while the crafter was playing with his guns

Training is the equivelant of gaining feats in the example you gave. Stop trying to obfuscate away from the issue.

Mistwalker wrote:
'll run with your example, but move the goal post back a bit, still training with the group. The gunsmith, on his own time, plays with weapons, tinkering with them.

The mage spends his feat on Crafting rather than something combat effective, with you so far. Down time really isn't relevant, is it? That's why it is down time.

Mistwalker wrote:
You are saying that instead of spending time with spouse, kids, family, watching movies, sports etc.. they have to spend time in the basement, for longer and longer periods of time as the PCs careers move forward, modifying and tinkering with everyone's else's weapons. While the other PCs are spending time with their spouses, kids, etc...
I'm sorry, do the PCs have spouses and other things to spend time doing that are not for the benefit of the party as a whole? I mean in Kingmaker, this is usually kingdom building which benefits everyone.

I was working on the special forces example that you modified. You changed carpentry to gunsmithing - sure, no problem.

But then you changed it more, saying that the gunsmith wasn't practicing with the group as much as everyone else. That last bit is what I considered changing the goal post. And I wasn't trying to obfuscate the issue, simply respond to your comment about the gunsmith doing less training.

The comments about spouses was also linked to the special forces example. But the spouses and kids example also applies to the PCs. I wasn't under the impression that a PC's family was there for the benefit of the party as a whole - are they such in your games?

Could you please point out how I moved the goal posts?

Also, could you address my other questions, the answers to which I believe may undercut your arguments?

Edit
Down time isn't relevant, then why are you saying that the crafter doesn't get any? as in the crafter will be crafting items for the group, at cost, while the rest of the group kick's back and relaxes?


While I agree that certain things are expected to be free, like in combat healing, smashing of foes, picking of locks ect... Its your job. Other stuff shouldn't be free. If somebody needs a charge off my wand for out of combat healing, I'm going to charge them. They could have bought their own wand or potions. If the fighter borrows a weapon and he gets it destroyed, well he owes me, as that comes out of my character wealth and share of party loot.

Actually adventuring is a business arrangement, you divide the loot up at the end by whatever means the party agrees on. Out of adventure your characters are their own beings. In real life it isn't unusual for a coworker to help another coworker do some personal task, like help them move. But its pretty rude to not compensate for the time, even if its just a case of beer or a BBQ, something has to be there to pay for it.

In terms of crafting, a tip of 5-10 percent is VERY modest when the labor is otherwise free. After all, he could have chosen a feat that doesn't increase your character wealth by a large margin, and instead chosen something more useful for himself. If you don't reward people for making choices that help the party, then you end up with a guy who does the bare minimum of his party role, and doesn't help the party as much as he could. This ultimately hurts the party as a whole, but that is the PARTIES fault for failing to provide incentive. Oh, you don't want to pay almost half price for weapons I make? Ok, I'll just switch that feat out for toughness or dodge (or something equally unhelpful by comparison) and you can go pay full price at that nice weapons dealer who probably doesn't have anything good due to community size.

If the party doesn't like having to pay a discounted price for goods, then they can pay full price. Nothing forcing a character to take creation feats. If the party wants to think they are entitled to crafting, let them know they are NOT. If the fighters decide to punish the lack of free stuff by in combat actions like letting enemies get through, they are the ones who are causing problems by not doing the only thing their character is even there for (role abandonment). If the players IRL get upset at this, let them know that this isn't a single player RPG where you can swap gear freely between party members. Your character has RP limits to how much he can or will do for free.

As a GM it really bugs me when player/cohorts/other players are treated as the same group-mind, like some sort of commune where there is no property. Unless you are roleplaying in a communist utopia setting (nothing wrong with setting choices if you want to go this route) this makes little sense.


I'm also a wizard in a kingmaker campaign who took a few item crafting feats. I charge my party for the time spent working on the item at a mere 50g per days work. For party items we pool our money and I create it at no charge. If it's a spell I don't know I also charge for half the price of the scroll to learn it.

In game terms Time spent on their requests is time I could be spending on making items for a much greater profit (I created a consignment shop to make items for townsfolk). They all know this and are OK with the pricing. I always tell them that thier requests take priority, and they find the arrangement acceptable. One of the party members even pays extra beyond the 50g per day because he realizes the great discount he gets.

The argument I heard of "the cleric doesnt charge for cures" doesn't fly because I dont charge for buffs or fireballs either.

I'm actually suprised that your party members would react so negatively at getting such a great deal. Especially considering your character concept. However, my advice is, if they have a problem with it... Ask to retrain the feats, since all they have done is created an uncompensated burden on you by making you thier crafting slave.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

10 Percent charge is very reasonable.

Now to those who say the cleric shodl charge for healing him or the fighter should charge him for interecepting the ogre heading forhim. Remember he does more then just craft items (at a feat investment to himself).

He is also probalby slowing teh ogres so they don't hit the fighter as much, hasting the party so they more easily kill the oppponents, tossing fireballs to get rid of the mooks and other things. I am going to assume that in the adventure he is holding up his end of the party and then IN ADDITION is crafting things at a discount for the party.


While all these analogies are fun let's look at it another more relevant way.

By choosing crafting feats you take on the unspoken responsibility of spending downtime to help the group build stuff that would normally be unavailable to them because of costs or circumstances. Now while I agree the fee is small and reasonable you have to understand this is an advantage being gained by you you would otherwise not gain were the aprty pay full price.

Forget the analogies it's being exploitative to your party members and in the end it harms you as well as the group. Consider this: by crafting an item rather than having them pay for it you allow the group to take advantage of the half cost advantage. By raising this price you remove some that advantage purely for a personal advantage gained for yourself. If you count that the money they would otherwise have had would have likely gone towards more stuff to make the party as a whole better rather than to the benefit of one character.

This is one of those unspoken rules that simply go unsaid like:

1. The rest of the group doesn't kill your character and take his stuff.


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Stick my vote on the 10% charge being extremely reasonable without outstanding circumstances.

Picking up a craft feat is absolutely no reason to change your character into a manufacturing plant.

Anyone that assumes otherwise that plays with me will be mocked.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think charging 10% is more than fair. The main reason is you need down time and you have only so much of it even in King Maker. If you are crafting for the party you aren't crafting for yourself. So either charge 10%+ or that item is at the bottom of the list.

So the wizards says:
"You want me to craft you a magic sword, well I have laundry list of items I'm crafting for myself the cleric over there wants a headband of Wisdom. So once I get my stuff done and the cleric done then I'll look at your sword. Could be done sometime next year or the year after depending on how things work out. Of course with a little incentive I could do the sword now and I'll delay one of my items. I think a little compensation if I were to do this would be in order."


Charging party members for crafting items is directly comparable to charging party members for heal spells, buffs or even charging a party member to take a hit for them.

It's totally jerk behavior.

If someone in my party pulled something like this, they would immediately be kicked out, or else they would find themselves being charged for every single thing my character did that they benefitted from. Need heals? Fine, five GP per hit point. Need buff? No problem, 50gp x buff level squared, or you're on your own.


TarkXT wrote:
Consider this: by crafting an item rather than having them pay for it you allow the group to take advantage of the half cost advantage.

You're forgetting the biggest advantage of all - custom ordering. The Fighter wants X item, but rolls poorly when looking for one. Sorry, there are none available, but you can try next month. Okay, so he goes to the party crafter instead. That is a huge advantage all by itself.

Tacking on 10% doesn't seem so egregious.


Charging party members for crafting is not even kinda related to charging for heal spells or tanking.

They are getting their payment for heal spells and tanking out of the loot pool. Those are party efforts for shared gain.

This is me making you a sword for free. Nah unless I'm playing a dedicated crafter I'm charging.


loaba wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
Consider this: by crafting an item rather than having them pay for it you allow the group to take advantage of the half cost advantage.

You're forgetting the biggest advantage of all - custom ordering. The Fighter wants X item, but rolls poorly when looking for one. Sorry, there are none available, but you can try next month. Okay, so he goes to the party crafter instead. That is a huge advantage all by itself.

Tacking on 10% doesn't seem so egregious.

Heh... as I said, you try this in my party and you'll be paying for your heals. The unspoken agreement among party members is that you are all in this together, not profiting from each other. If you want to profit from me because you took a feat, then I will have no problem deciding what benefits you get from me that you will have to pay for yourself.

Tit for tat. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

You could have taken another combat feat and improved your combat effectiveness. You chose instead to take a feat that supposedly benefitted the group in a different way. Now you want to charge me for it?

Bullcrap.

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